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Unread 6 Sep 2005, 19:23   #1
The Real Arfy
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Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

In response to the new announcement that has been posted, I'd like to ask (and suggest I suppose) if those accounts affected will have to do the researches?

I mean, given that free accounts are generally less active and will miss research and construction ticks, those researches will not get completed by the end of the round. Personally, I think the researches should be done for them automatically, so a full fortnight of paid-playing is available.
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Unread 6 Sep 2005, 19:26   #2
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

we'd have to do that using havoc tools, and do the tech trees for everyone.
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Unread 6 Sep 2005, 19:30   #3
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Or it could be done through a mysql prompt.
update research from planet_table where planet = free
along those lines
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Unread 6 Sep 2005, 20:04   #4
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

yer it should be enabled at once for them - i think to see that u have 2 weeks of research before you isnt that "exciting" for a unpaid planet at all :P

if you get all researches at once it more like an impact for the unpaid planet and let him fall over off happiness!
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Unread 6 Sep 2005, 21:01   #5
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Yes seems like a fair one to me.
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Unread 6 Sep 2005, 22:12   #6
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Disagreed, it could affect the round mechanics slightly through a cascading effect, and we don't want to give the impression that these things happen. As was said, it's in the havoc tools to do this, and that's because it belongs in havoc, not in the real round. Let them play properly as a paid planet, see how the round is when paid, not see how the round is during havoc if the ticks are slower and you have less resources.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 03:15   #7
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

be prepare of multis !
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 05:00   #8
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

I don't really fancy a bunch of multi accounts cov-opping like mad. One of main reasons for restricting free planets in the first place is to stop people being able to multi like mad and do real damage to proper legitimate players.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 08:10   #9
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

its only the limitations being removed, nothing else.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 09:57   #10
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Sid has a good point, actually. Remove all the limits except for cov-ops and we should be sorted.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 10:00   #11
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Sid has a good point, actually. Remove all the limits except for cov-ops and we should be sorted.
he doesn;t really tbh, covertops have been heavily nerfed for 2 rounds now, its far far to easy to be invulnerable to them - and also the freebies would still actually have to research them
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 10:13   #12
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
he doesn;t really tbh, covertops have been heavily nerfed for 2 rounds now, its far far to easy to be invulnerable to them - and also the freebies would still actually have to research them
Think furby was referring to the orignal idea of if they had the majority of the tree already done for them to give them a better idea on some things.
Ie giving them all the researched cov ops straight away without researching so they can cov op us all to death

But your not giving them anything so doesnt matter.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 14:44   #13
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
he doesn;t really tbh, covertops have been heavily nerfed for 2 rounds now, its far far to easy to be invulnerable to them - and also the freebies would still actually have to research them
Im afraid i agree with Sid on this one.
Nerfed or not, Covert ops are still a threat to players as not everyone will have went for the invulnerability route with constructions
Though there are other concerns to be aware of with multi planets, such as farms, escorters, and so on
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 15:19   #14
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Im afraid i agree with Sid on this one.
Nerfed or not, Covert ops are still a threat to players as not everyone will have went for the invulnerability route with constructions
Though there are other concerns to be aware of with multi planets, such as farms, escorters, and so on
yes but the whole nature of covert ops (alertness increasing when u are covertoped) would severly limit the dame done to you - and if u arn;t invulnerable now, then chances are you arn;t the sort of person that needs to be - as i'm sure all the big planets worried about the freebies getting them will allready be invulnerable.

as to multi planets etc, we do still have a multihunter team you know, and this is only for the last 2 weeks of the round rather than the whole round. Though indeed you have put forward some nice arguments against the free rounds people want.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 18:38   #15
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
yes but the whole nature of covert ops (alertness increasing when u are covertoped) would severly limit the dame done to you - and if u arn;t invulnerable now, then chances are you arn;t the sort of person that needs to be - as i'm sure all the big planets worried about the freebies getting them will allready be invulnerable.
Probably, Though dont kid yourself into thinking multi covert-op planets would be made just to attack the big guys. there are other players out there you know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
as to multi planets etc, we do still have a multihunter team you know
Yes, I know. I used to run it you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
and this is only for the last 2 weeks of the round rather than the whole round
Another thing im aware of, but that doesnt mean someones point is invalid, just because there isnt long to go for it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Though indeed you have put forward some nice arguments against the free rounds people want.
Twist what I said any way you want. Theres nothing wrong with raising concerns and its pretty disrespectful to attempt to tarnish someones reputation in the underhanded manner you just did.
If PATeam decide not to do free rounds, its the responsibility of PATeam, and not those who didnt agree with doing one the way it was going to be done.
You're in charge, YOU take the flak and stop trying to blame others for it.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 19:08   #16
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Probably, Though dont kid yourself into thinking multi covert-op planets would be made just to attack the big guys. there are other players out there you know.
yes, but again, setting security to priority 1 gives close to full immunity with the current covert ops system - and in that it will take time for free planets to research the new things, people will have the opportunity to have greater security if they so wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Yes, I know. I used to run it you know?
I meant for the benefit of other people, that although some people have left pateam, there is still a multihunter team left behind, which is currently expanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Another thing im aware of, but that doesnt mean someones point is invalid, just because there isnt long to go for it
true, but I think after re reading the thread both you and i got the wrong end of sid's thread as noah2 said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Twist what I said any way you want. Theres nothing wrong with raising concerns and its pretty disrespectful to attempt to tarnish someones reputation in the underhanded manner you just did.
If PATeam decide not to do free rounds, its the responsibility of PATeam, and not those who didnt agree with doing one the way it was going to be done.
You're in charge, YOU take the flak and stop trying to blame others for it.
As you know its upto jolt, not pateam as to free rounds etc.

As to the tarnishing, that was not my intention, I was merly pointing out people can;t have things both ways - they can;t campaign for a free round, yet at the same time complain if freebies get less restrictions... well they can ofc complain, but its not exactly fair.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 19:18   #17
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

allowing everyone to cov op IS dangerous. and kal it's utter bull that it's easy to be invulnerable. same as the fact it's easy to have all sorts of multi accounts with eta -4...

if you don't know how much it 'costs' to be immune you can't really say stuff about it kal, we PLAY the round and it is very hard to be immune plus get proper constructions.

p.s. does this mean I will get a full techtree aswell? seeing as my account is actually PAID and i am not even close to having full tech tree?
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 19:27   #18
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

heh, just shows how well kal knows the game

but more on topic, i dont have the full tech tree aswell yet, i would like to have it aswell, atleast i paid for it

(and cooping is imo still to strong but thats something for another thread if any1 wants to make that )
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 20:49   #19
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
allowing everyone to cov op IS dangerous. and kal it's utter bull that it's easy to be invulnerable. same as the fact it's easy to have all sorts of multi accounts with eta -4...

if you don't know how much it 'costs' to be immune you can't really say stuff about it kal, we PLAY the round and it is very hard to be immune plus get proper constructions.

p.s. does this mean I will get a full techtree aswell? seeing as my account is actually PAID and i am not even close to having full tech tree?
uou clealry haven;t read anything in this thread.

they are NOT getting the full tech tree, they are merly being allowed to research it.

The thread starter was saying they should be given all tech, I responded saying only their limitations are being removed, so in effect free accounts will be around the point paid accounts are after 1 week of the round.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 20:57   #20
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 21:57   #21
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

so basically it's useless for them aswell... they can have it for a week or 2 maybe and it takes a week to even get eta -4

grats on doing another useless thing.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 22:37   #22
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
so basically it's useless for them aswell... they can have it for a week or 2 maybe and it takes a week to even get eta -4

grats on doing another useless thing.
its to give them a small taster, if it prooves successful - i.e. if people do actually take advantage then in future rounds it could potentially happen earlier in the round etc, though ofc then the issue of dangerous freebie multis is a greater one.
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Unread 7 Sep 2005, 23:13   #23
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
he doesn;t really tbh, covertops have been heavily nerfed for 2 rounds now, its far far to easy to be invulnerable to them - and also the freebies would still actually have to research them
Ok then. You're removing the free account limits two weeks before the end of the round. That's 378 hours before the end of the round.

Let's say I sign up a free account on the tick you lift all limits. This ignores the fact that the account would sensibly be set up now to get things started, but hey ho.

First, you choose Cathaar for the 10% research and 10 point stealth bonus. On Engineering, you make Research priority 1. You're now researching at 76.5% of the base time.

You can do the first 3 HCT researches in 39 ticks. Let's round that up to 50 ticks for convenience. At the same time, you initate a shed-load (300) of roids, having self-exiled into a decent galaxy that will protect you.

Following me so far?


Your next step is to get researching Covert Ops. I will assume that by this stage, the free planet will have built enough Research Labs to get the 20% bonus. That takes you to 61.2% of the base research time.

It takes 196 ticks to research the entire covert-op tree, with no research bonuses. I can't be bothered to work out each research individually to find out the effect of rounding down each research time, since 61.2% is bound to produce fractions that get rounded down.

196 * 0.612 = 119.952

In the traditional PA manner, let's round this down to 119 ticks. Our poor free planet may miss a few ticks (but probably not many). 125 ticks? Mr. free planet now sets Security to Priority 1 and unleashes the fury.



50 + 125 = 175 ticks. Seven to eight days, that's all it takes to turn a free planet into a covert-opping machine, by removing the limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
covertops have been heavily nerfed for 2 rounds now
Structural Integrity - lets you train your Agents to take out enemy structures using explosives.

A dead structure is a dead structure. A dead factory is a dead factory. The others may have been nerfed, but this one hasn't. It may be easy to change engineering settings (unless they've been recently changed, in which case the target please is screwed), but they have to see their dead structures first.


If it was me, I'd hit each planet when I know they'd be offline or asleep. A lot of players work and/or sleep. You could make a lot of peoples' lives a misery in the week of the round left.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 04:31   #24
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

My bet: 80% of the freebies wouldnt find great usefulness unlocking tech-tree on 2 weeks of the rndend.

All researches unlocked and Covert-ops locked so the paid wont moan would be nice, specially cos would make smaller planets have more targets and unstagnate the rnd for small planets at least
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 07:45   #25
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball

If it was me, I'd hit each planet when I know they'd be offline or asleep. A lot of players work and/or sleep. You could make a lot of peoples' lives a misery in the week of the round left.
you are limited in how often you can covert op becuase your stealth has to recharge, and you are limited in how often you can covert op the same target becuase their alertness has to drop. So to do any serious damage you would need a lot of free accounts, which would make it easier for an MH to locate you.

If this does happen then I have to say its a little depressing as it means that if at any point PA did have a free round it would juts become a round full of cheating and abuse and would probably end up being no fun for anyone :/
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 08:41   #26
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
If this does happen then I have to say its a little depressing as it means that if at any point PA did have a free round it would juts become a round full of cheating and abuse and would probably end up being no fun for anyone :/
\o/ round 1,2,3 and 4 for teh win \o/
/me wipes away a small tear

Kal you must have played the old rounds and know what its like.
And anyways thought the MH team was a lot better nowadays to quash cheaters.

As for covert opping I hate the damn thing and being forced to bin mining as priority or production as priority because PA team think thats all we all do is concentrate on saving ourselves from cov opping is just stupid.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 08:47   #27
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
\o/ round 1,2,3 and 4 for teh win \o/
/me wipes away a small tear

Kal you must have played the old rounds and know what its like.
And anyways thought the MH team was a lot better nowadays to quash cheaters.

As for covert opping I hate the damn thing and being forced to bin mining as priority or production as priority because PA team think thats all we all do is concentrate on saving ourselves from cov opping is just stupid.
I was hoping that we had a more mature player base now :/
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 08:57   #28
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

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Originally Posted by Kal
I was hoping that we had a more mature player base now :/
Yes we do have SOME mature players playing nowadays but then again the maturer they are the better at cheating and not getting caught maybe?

Just a thought.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 11:14   #29
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
you are limited in how often you can covert op becuase your stealth has to recharge, and you are limited in how often you can covert op the same target becuase their alertness has to drop. So to do any serious damage you would need a lot of free accounts, which would make it easier for an MH to locate you.

If this does happen then I have to say its a little depressing as it means that if at any point PA did have a free round it would juts become a round full of cheating and abuse and would probably end up being no fun for anyone :/
Well, you'd be hitting people every 3-4 ticks, with Stealth at priority 1. With just a week of the round to go, I'd say there's still plenty of time to kill 50-100 structures. This ignores the fact that the planet would be set up now rather than when the restrictions are lifted.

What's to stop members of an alliance not playing this round signing up some free accounts and wreaking some havoc?


This is why I'd keep covert ops locked. Better safe than sorry.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 12:51   #30
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Well, you'd be hitting people every 3-4 ticks, with Stealth at priority 1. With just a week of the round to go, I'd say there's still plenty of time to kill 50-100 structures. This ignores the fact that the planet would be set up now rather than when the restrictions are lifted.

What's to stop members of an alliance not playing this round signing up some free accounts and wreaking some havoc?


This is why I'd keep covert ops locked. Better safe than sorry.
whats to have stoped them form signing up earlier and paying - plenty of people ahve signed up late and paid and hence there could allready be a good 500 nasty covert op planets out there.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 13:27   #31
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

I don't mind, if they've paid. It's the free accounts being able to do this that I have the problem with.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 13:42   #32
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I don't mind, if they've paid. It's the free accounts being able to do this that I have the problem with.
do you not agree though that its worth showing free accounts what they are missing - isn;t that what the point of a full free round etc would be - and it becomes slightly pointless if we say "we don;t trust you freebies, so you can;t actually do everything"
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 13:47   #33
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Kal, surely you're not comparing two weeks at the end of the round with a full free round?

I agree with unlocking everything except covert ops. Give them everything up to Warp Core Sabotage, but beyond that you risk multis/people with a grudge making peoples' lives a misery. Besides, I thought that it was the ETA and construction times that really matter, not covert ops
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 14:11   #34
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Kal, surely you're not comparing two weeks at the end of the round with a full free round?

I agree with unlocking everything except covert ops. Give them everything up to Warp Core Sabotage, but beyond that you risk multis/people with a grudge making peoples' lives a misery. Besides, I thought that it was the ETA and construction times that really matter, not covert ops
but what if they really like covert ops and it convinces them to upgrade next round?
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 14:26   #35
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Well, I suppose that there's an off-chance of that. How about giving them all of them except the last one (Structural Integrity - which is the main reason for my opposition, even though scanners could get cnutted)?
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 14:37   #36
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

my main point really is that - being a free planet doesn;t make someone inheratnly evil or bad - yes we should look after the paying customers in preference to the free players, but at the same time we do want the active player base to increase in size. Now jolt can;t afford to offer a free round, but jolt have ok'd no freebie limitations for the last 2 weeks of the round. Surely we actually want people to sign up and take advantage of this?

I agree that with the current costs of constructions strutural integrity covert op is powerful - though the value reduction caused by the structure dying is low - and people would be better off keeping resources now than invesiting in strucuture )other than perhaps finance centres) - i'm unconvinced there would be signficant and damging abuse from this. However, it is possible to adjust the freebie tech levels individually, though a global toggle was being used, so furball's option is at least possible.
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 17:53   #37
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

tbh if you want new players surely you want PLAYERS, not cov oppers? so what's the reason in not keeping that closed?
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 21:27   #38
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

the point is valid, it can be abused
i think kal thinks its not gonna be much of a problem

/me smiles again

lets see what happens :-)
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Unread 8 Sep 2005, 22:01   #39
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
the point is valid, it can be abused
i think kal thinks its not gonna be much of a problem

/me smiles again

lets see what happens :-)
And you used to be such a party liner too.
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Unread 9 Sep 2005, 17:13   #40
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

in here yes, in PAteam not realy
you kinda have to all agree in public to keep control

but objections are not welcome in PA (lets leave it @ that)
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Unread 9 Sep 2005, 19:26   #41
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Firstly, with regards to furball's point, new accounts are actually starting with the free account research limit (2 time travel / 1 construction / 3 ships / 2 scanning/ 3 core resources / 1 covert ops / 3 cargo transfers), due to the "rolling start bonus", as well as just over 150 roids.
Assuming that they're evil covert-opping multis, willing to mass sign up accounts at different IPs using public proxies and remote desktopping other IP's, and don't drop 1 tick researching covert ops, it's going to take over a week for them to get the full tree.
I'm assuming most people will go for the 2 ETA researches, a construction research and the unit scans research. If it means people can sleep at night, as most "normal" free players probably won't go for covert ops, it's possible to just manually move all the limits for the tech trees up (instead of disabling them which is what we origionally planned), and just not move the covert op one up quite so far - as furball suggested, leaving the last one unavailable.
I must say, the confidence in your fellow players is quite shocking - and with 2 new enthuastic multihunters just starting out, I'm sure they'll be helping to monitor things closely (such as the number of accounts per IP address ).
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Unread 10 Sep 2005, 04:54   #42
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
with 2 new enthuastic multihunters just starting out, I'm sure they'll be helping to monitor things closely (such as the number of accounts per IP address ).
I DIDNT AGREE! I SWEAR I DIDNT MAIL THAT NDA!!

/me dies



Squish and the other person have my sympathies.
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Unread 10 Sep 2005, 12:07   #43
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Re: Free Accounts Upgrade and Havoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Firstly, with regards to furball's point, new accounts are actually starting with the free account research limit (2 time travel / 1 construction / 3 ships / 2 scanning/ 3 core resources / 1 covert ops / 3 cargo transfers), due to the "rolling start bonus", as well as just over 150 roids.
Assuming that they're evil covert-opping multis, willing to mass sign up accounts at different IPs using public proxies and remote desktopping other IP's, and don't drop 1 tick researching covert ops, it's going to take over a week for them to get the full tree.
If you scroll up, you'll see that I worked it all out for you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I'm assuming most people will go for the 2 ETA researches, a construction research and the unit scans research. If it means people can sleep at night, as most "normal" free players probably won't go for covert ops, it's possible to just manually move all the limits for the tech trees up (instead of disabling them which is what we origionally planned), and just not move the covert op one up quite so far - as furball suggested, leaving the last one unavailable.
Yes, that IS what I'd expect. Sounds good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I must say, the confidence in your fellow players is quite shocking - and with 2 new enthuastic multihunters just starting out, I'm sure they'll be helping to monitor things closely (such as the number of accounts per IP address ).
I didn't even suggest that we'd have multis. Without pointing fingers, there are certain alliances that aren't playing this round that would be quite happy to each sign up a free account and cov-op alliances such as 1up to hell. As amusing as it would be, I don't think we should present people with the opportunity.
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