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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 00:51   #1
Intruder
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Lightbulb Jolt & Netgamers

Well, this is not exactly related to Planetarion, but the idea came as another way to help bringin new players into the game. This morning while idling at channels like #Counter-Strike and #enemyterritory i was thinking ways to bring more players of these and other games ( like Diablo, WoW, GW ) to this network, who is more PA-oriented but could be nice to be viewed like a complete gaming network. Then i thought that maybe Jolt should help on this too, since if the network starts to attract more players of more games like that, many eventually would end on PA and that would benefit all of us. So i went to Jolt forums to try find out if they have a IRC Network ( after i tried irc.jolt.com.uk and irc.jolt.com ) and i must confess i didnt search too much, specially cos i saw a "chat" button and clicked to see where he would take me. They took me to Quakenet server, wich i don't know if have any agreement with Jolt. So i think you all know what my idea is about. Maybe Jolt should make an agreement with Netgamers about to become official network for thier "other games" community. Maybe after this agreement jolt should try to bring their IRC community to Netgamers and link their chat to netgamers. Quakenet sux this days anyway. Netgamers ( besides tech problems last weeks ) is an excellent network, and surely this would benefit all of us, PA community, Jolt and netgamers.
I am posting this here cos i dont know to who andress this so goes to Jolt/Netgamers ppl and second i would like oppiinons of PA community.


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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 00:55   #2
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

seems like a fine idea
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 00:57   #3
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:00   #4
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Seems reasonable...
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:09   #5
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I love the idea
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:16   #6
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

cheers mate
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 01:38   #7
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Sounds good
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 04:50   #8
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Good idea
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 07:19   #9
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

nice idea ,

/me wishes lucas or steven spielberg would make planetarion a movie ^.^
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 07:36   #10
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Considering what happened when the Jolt 'people' and the PA 'people' crossed on the forums, this might not be a great idea...
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 08:56   #11
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Considering what happened when the Jolt 'people' and the PA 'people' crossed on the forums, this might not be a great idea...
That was just a clash of some big egos. Maybe the IRC 'people' are more reasonable and openminded than the forum regulars. Which is not very hard imo.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 08:59   #12
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by laputa
Maybe the IRC 'people' are more reasonable and openminded than the forum regulars.
lol
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 11:33   #13
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

LOL so true

A good idea mate. Something needs to be done for sure.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 11:52   #14
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Considering what happened when the Jolt 'people' and the PA 'people' crossed on the forums, this might not be a great idea...
Any other idea or initiative is welcome
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 12:01   #15
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I think this is a great idea
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 12:01   #16
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Ads in PC magazines - as in articles/reviews, not plain adverts.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 12:25   #17
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

PC Format I think.

They were comparing web based games.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 12:45   #18
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I actually came across Planetarion in a PC mag in the first place. There were a couple of articles on it way back in 2000 when it was a new and unique idea
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 13:11   #19
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

jolt is a netgamers partner via its onwership of Planetarion and provides one of the netgamers servers.

However, I assume jolt use quakenet for a reason - perhaps becuase thats where the majority of their customers hang out - jolt changing networks could quite possibly loose them customers to a greater extent than it could make them. Remember jolt makes virtually nothing from Planetarion, it relies on its core business of hosting games servers and quakenet makes sense for that.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 13:11   #20
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I had that issue of PC Format
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 13:32   #21
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Well, it can be made clear that a paid account is necessary to do well, etc.

And since most magazines can be paid for doing articles, they're usually sympathetic to the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn
Couple that with the fact that there is competition which offers either a very similar service for free, or a game that has tried to build on the original idea it would be lucky to get a review at all let alone a good one.
We forget the problems that plague other PA clones. Pia has terrible servers, while SS has lost most of its members. PA has very good servers and a decent member base/community considering its pay-to-play.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 14:53   #22
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

i dunno if jolt are allowd to say this but am just wondering how much jolt has to pay for 1 round of PA?
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 15:12   #23
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

something we wil never likely find out
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 15:15   #24
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Remember jolt makes virtually nothing from Planetarion
Bullshit, over 2000 people paying over £3 more than 3 times a year? That is with the declining numbers too. When you consider their costs for PA and the effort they put in, it is a bloody good earner for them.

WRT the thread, it is a 'nice' idea, but wouldn't work because jolt are unwilling to put ANYTHING into PA if they can possibly avoid it. They prefer to sit back and just let the money flow in. If they cared about PA or had any business sense, they'd already be investing money in the game to increase the playerbase, as it is, they are happy to sit back and do nothing except read the accounts.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 15:19   #25
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Actually its good business sense to leave it.

There is a hardcore group who won't leave the game due to alliances etc. That is a steady income which any drastic change may jeopardise. We all know the attitude that is so popular now 'if you do bad things to the way alliances run, I will quit and so will EVERYONE in my alliance'.

Whats the point in rocking the boat, its easy money. Jolt probably is happy to let PA Team take all the heat while we bitch and moan about the same things and yet still throw money at Jolt in the hope that the next round will be different (when it never is).
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 15:24   #26
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

The hardcore players won't let their alliances be dictated to, but we do want more players, advertising would help, giving say 2000 free credits to a magazine to use in a competition would help (don't announce it is being done) - costs Jolt nothing other than bandwidth, and it would get free advertising as the magazine would push the competition or whatever and it gets 2000 players for a round that would make it more interesting, bring older players back and no doubt plenty of the 2000 would play another round and pay for it. Everybody is a winner.

Trouble is, Jolt seem to care about nothing other than putting in as little effort as possible.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 15:32   #27
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I agree with you mate.

But like many others I'm tired of hoping that things like that will happen and so I should be retiring soon myself, thereby contributing to the problem. But what else can be done?

I moaned when it started turning poo many rounds ago and others like me were all shouted down by the alliances. Now all that is left is the alliances.

Some of us have access to the alliance only private forums for suggestions, but even that has had no activity in 2 rounds (including this). Essentially few people are talking and even less listening.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 15:36   #28
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

The problem isn't restricted to within the community, which is largely the point I was making, Jolt's refusal to provide any support to the community or to even take the most basic steps towards trying to improve things by getting more players or improving the game it the most major problem in my eyes.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 15:42   #29
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Spinner was voted the '6th most influencial internet person' in Norway during PA's heyday. (by a serious publication, not some random internet vote)

All things considered, thats quite a feat.

Quakenet has been around for years and years...I can see the benefit's of changing networks, but I do however predict a slight problem in bringing the qnet regulars over to a entirely different network
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 16:04   #30
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

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Originally Posted by Horn
i'm not sure about many of the other magazines, but pc gamer certainly seems to be more vocal in it's support for indie games and originality on the whole, including, but not exclusive to online games.
The problem is that such support would hardly gurantee a sympathetic review of planetarion.
It's lost a huge percentage of it's original playerbase, it is no longer an indie game yet has barely evolved from the original concept..... and now bound (i assume) by tighter restrictions on how to change the game it doesn't seem likely that planetarion will be a beacon of ingenuity any time soon.
Couple that with the fact that there is competition which offers either a very similar service for free, or a game that has tried to build on the original idea it would be lucky to get a review at all let alone a good one.
PC gamer were exactly very supportive of PA at the start. The beta test was talked about in what would have probally been the jan/feb 2000 issue which is what got me checking it out and many of the staff activly played the game for a number of rounds. Theres probally some of the pre p2p players whom are still here who were actually in their galaxies
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 16:17   #31
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

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Originally Posted by Bashar
The hardcore players won't let their alliances be dictated to, but we do want more players, advertising would help, giving say 2000 free credits to a magazine to use in a competition would help (don't announce it is being done) - costs Jolt nothing other than bandwidth, and it would get free advertising as the magazine would push the competition or whatever and it gets 2000 players for a round that would make it more interesting, bring older players back and no doubt plenty of the 2000 would play another round and pay for it. Everybody is a winner.

Trouble is, Jolt seem to care about nothing other than putting in as little effort as possible.
You however have just highlighted one of the major problems though Basher. While Jolt may very well be failing the game by not being proactive enough in advertising it and improving it theres simply too many people in this community willing to make Jolt a scapegoat for the failure. Jolt are not the only people whom are to blame and we should also be looking closer to home but it seems the community would too often perfer to bury its head in the sand.

We cant solve the problems at Jolts end but we can get our own house in order. Perhaps then Jolt might start to see it as something worth spending more on rather than an elitist game thats never going to expand due to a selfish playerbase and then they might feel more inclinded to invest something into the game. Even if they dont hey we might just have improved the game ourselves
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 16:25   #32
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

There are selfish players, but largely, the community does contribute. You've seen me contribute over the years, you know I am not someone who just looks to find a scape goat, you know I do put in effort to improve things. However, Jolt own the game, the servers etc. Their inaction and apathy towards PA doesn't just mean they don't contribute what they should, it also hinders other people who try to contribute.

I am not saying the community is perfect or that it couldn't do more, what I am saying however is that Jolt SHOULD do more, and that Jolt is the MAIN problem, not the only problem by far, but the MAIN problem.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 16:37   #33
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
There are selfish players, but largely, the community does contribute. You've seen me contribute over the years, you know I am not someone who just looks to find a scape goat, you know I do put in effort to improve things. However, Jolt own the game, the servers etc. Their inaction and apathy towards PA doesn't just mean they don't contribute what they should, it also hinders other people who try to contribute.

I am not saying the community is perfect or that it couldn't do more, what I am saying however is that Jolt SHOULD do more, and that Jolt is the MAIN problem, not the only problem by far, but the MAIN problem.
I disagree this community is on the whole one which for show gives with one hand then when no-ones looking picks their pockets. As a group we are elitist, unfriendly and selfish whom never give a thought to others and then we wonder why players dont want to come here. The people whom do really care for the games survival and success and do put and effort into making it better are a minority. Jolt could at this point throw loads of money at the game but it wouldnt really change anything because the players it got would on the whole be scared away
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 16:49   #34
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I disagree with you on this. From my own experience, members of the community are often willing to help out newer players. Almost every galaxy I have been in I've seen it, I see it frequently in 1up when members PM me to ask permission to take their newbie gal mates out on an attack to help them out.

You've either had a lot of bad luck with your experiences or you've got a very pessimistic outlook.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:08   #35
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

At the moment, the biggest problem is the player base. With a total planet level of ~2500, 1500 of those are in serious alliances. Where are the little players who war amongst themselves and play for fun? There's just not enough of these people left.

A drip-drip effect of people entering the game just won't do. We need a large influx of people all at once instead, so that they can look after each other rather than just being used as farms by our current small people.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:13   #36
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Furball is correct.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:14   #37
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
At the moment, the biggest problem is the player base. With a total planet level of ~2500, 1500 of those are in serious alliances. Where are the little players who war amongst themselves and play for fun? There's just not enough of these people left.

A drip-drip effect of people entering the game just won't do. We need a large influx of people all at once instead, so that they can look after each other rather than just being used as farms by our current small people.

any ideas on how to do that?
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:15   #38
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Though i have to agree with you wakey, though there are some things you are forgetting here. Imho one of the reasons for players being 'selfish' is that the gaming envirement forces them to rely on their alliance and galaxy only. There is not other political aspect involved apart from that. In the old days you could survive to a reasonable extend by having no alliance but simply taking part in cluster activities and flying along with galaxy m8s on their raids (after all.. most gals consisted out of a group of players belonging to certain side).

With the removal of any ingame interaction apart from the alliance or galaxy (and for a very small part, clusters) the game isn't exactly encouraging alliances players to learn the basics to any other players than the ones they might benefit from in the future (galaxy). Clusters are mainly huge idle chans, and freebies can't make any eta they are needed at anyway so they aren't of much help. They can't tag along paid planets either for teamup attacks as they are too slow, and you can't seriously expect the paid players to pay for any freebie they come accross. Pre pax free accounts were still usefull and could help out, thus where more welcomed than the current freebies.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 17:34   #39
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

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any ideas on how to do that?
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 20:30   #40
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

furball is right.... I left after the first round of pay to play came in. It had nothing to do with the paying, but the game seemed to be more alliance based because it was alliance based ppl who stayed on. I came back this round and still see things the same. You really need to be in an alliance to grow and survive. I remember when you could arrange an attack on a gal for your entire gal to partake in... now everyone has to run off to check arbiters

Where's the fun in that for the small guys....
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 21:30   #41
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
jolt is a netgamers partner via its onwership of Planetarion and provides one of the netgamers servers.

However, I assume jolt use quakenet for a reason - perhaps becuase thats where the majority of their customers hang out - jolt changing networks could quite possibly loose them customers to a greater extent than it could make them. Remember jolt makes virtually nothing from Planetarion, it relies on its core business of hosting games servers and quakenet makes sense for that.
Well, about that, i think what more likely to happen is most teams/clans/etc just keep their channels at Quakenet. I think most will do, but by making Netgamers official network would atract some of these ppl anyway, specially new teams/new to community/small teams who cant register theirs channels due to Qnet policy. What they must understand is that is a cheap way to ad the game and lest 90% wont stop using Jolt just beacuse they arent on a Major network. Specially cos any wont leave Quakenet.

It was discussed about PC magazine and ads on Magazines. I didnt see Jolt doin that, i think they dont want to spend money on it, so i offered an alternative who wont take money investiment, at least not many, and i dont think will get us a flow of new players but at least will for sure bring us more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I disagree this community is on the whole one which for show gives with one hand then when no-ones looking picks their pockets. As a group we are elitist, unfriendly and selfish whom never give a thought to others and then we wonder why players dont want to come here. The people whom do really care for the games survival and success and do put and effort into making it better are a minority. Jolt could at this point throw loads of money at the game but it wouldnt really change anything because the players it got would on the whole be scared away
I agree with that. My opinion? The community is the biggest responsible for the decrease of players. When i came up with this idea on IRC i heard "nah, would you want 14-old CS players around us?" or "I dont think is a good idea, why more people here? Neway, i dont play aymore so i dont care". The community is extremely lazy and selfish, from my experience, most think only about the game, and dont want to move a finger to make things chance, prefer to complain about Jolt and give negative predictions about the game, many examples can be seen of how people just dont care doin things just beacuse "i am quitting this round" and then tell the same thing 5 rounds later. Nice ideas like PA Wiki get no interest from most players, i had to write myself many of the user infos presented there just because the old players i asked here cba. You dont see many trying to ad or saying "i put a PA banner won my website" Not many voted for PA as Game of the month on that survay on some website. People here think "i will stop finally soon so i dont care on what will happen" or "i only care with things in this community/game who does affect me directly, anything else is not my problem" Will have a change? I doubt, people will remain the same. So the burden lies on Jolt. Who seems not bother with that enough. And the all the rest (us) think is already too much effort jusr complain.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 21:43   #42
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

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Originally Posted by Che
furball is right.... I left after the first round of pay to play came in. It had nothing to do with the paying, but the game seemed to be more alliance based because it was alliance based ppl who stayed on. I came back this round and still see things the same. You really need to be in an alliance to grow and survive. I remember when you could arrange an attack on a gal for your entire gal to partake in... now everyone has to run off to check arbiters

Where's the fun in that for the small guys....

idd. It was P2P that killed gal v gal wars or even C wars
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 21:50   #43
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I would love to see the playerbase grow again, wouldn't it be awsome to eventually have a round again with 200.000 players? Great idea imo, and I don't really mind if they are 14 year old CS players, thats how I came in, I stuck with it and have for a few years now. We just need to welcome and train those new players and be willing to do that.
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Unread 12 Aug 2005, 23:58   #44
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by themast
idd. It was P2P that killed gal v gal wars or even C wars
Not quite true, we had cluster wars right up to round 9.5 when you still had reduced attack time in cluster (think it was 9.5). And my gal had a gal war in round 7. Sort of.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 10:33   #45
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

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Originally Posted by Bashar
Bullshit, over 2000 people paying over £3 more than 3 times a year? That is with the declining numbers too. When you consider their costs for PA and the effort they put in, it is a bloody good earner for them.

you are forgetting - VAT being taken off, cc charges etc.

as well as this you are forgetting biffy is a jolt member of staff and hence gets paid, pishmishy is a jolt member of staff and hence gets paid, and of course the server costs.

and even if you ignore the costs, its still nothing in comparison to jolt's core business, hence from a business point of view its best to invest money where the greatest return can be made, which clearly isn't in Planetarion.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 10:49   #46
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

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Originally Posted by Kal
hence from a business point of view its best to invest money where the greatest return can be made, which clearly isn't in Planetarion.
Indeed, and nothing is ever going to look positive when they never listen.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 16:04   #47
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I disagree with you on this. From my own experience, members of the community are often willing to help out newer players. Almost every galaxy I have been in I've seen it, I see it frequently in 1up when members PM me to ask permission to take their newbie gal mates out on an attack to help them out.

You've either had a lot of bad luck with your experiences or you've got a very pessimistic outlook.
Please remove your blinkers for a second so you can see the whole picture. We have a community here whom are all too quick to exile people out of their galaxy EVEN if they are IRC active, we have a community whom constantly hit players of a much lower value as them and hit them OVER and OVER again ect ect.

The fact that theres a handful of players are willing to help others isnt going to help when the vast majority of the community undermine their work and even people whom help like you are undoing some of your work by burying your head in the sand. We need to give Jolt no option but to invest in PA and unless more of us make a stand and activly try and change the players views and attitudeds we wont acheive that. So we need to make a choice (and especially the command of the alliances) we either put up with a game that never expands and which Jolt just milk OR we show theres life in the game and show them that if they invest in getting players here the communities one that will welcome them and help them.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 16:21   #48
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Though i have to agree with you wakey, though there are some things you are forgetting here. Imho one of the reasons for players being 'selfish' is that the gaming envirement forces them to rely on their alliance and galaxy only. There is not other political aspect involved apart from that. In the old days you could survive to a reasonable extend by having no alliance but simply taking part in cluster activities and flying along with galaxy m8s on their raids (after all.. most gals consisted out of a group of players belonging to certain side).

With the removal of any ingame interaction apart from the alliance or galaxy (and for a very small part, clusters) the game isn't exactly encouraging alliances players to learn the basics to any other players than the ones they might benefit from in the future (galaxy). Clusters are mainly huge idle chans, and freebies can't make any eta they are needed at anyway so they aren't of much help. They can't tag along paid planets either for teamup attacks as they are too slow, and you can't seriously expect the paid players to pay for any freebie they come accross. Pre pax free accounts were still usefull and could help out, thus where more welcomed than the current freebies.
A gaming enviroment like this however is generally moulded more by the community than the game itself. Just look at the game now, its encourages the most warm and friendly gaming enviorment possible BUT its destroyed by the players attitudeds. For example theres no reason really why anyone in this game should be going on normal score gaining attacks and choosing a planet half their value as its not worth it and tehers no reason for anyone to send or encourage other to send SK at a smaller planet (or really any planet) on a score gaining attack. As I've said already if we can get this community to have a gretaer awareness of the players around us we can help ourselves alot and then if Jolt do invest more money into promoting the game it wont just be throwing money down the drain
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 20:12   #49
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

I can see this thread going slightly off course and more torwards Jolt bashing (which if any #planetarion locals know, I usually partake) but I have come to the following conclusions

* PA moving to Jolt IRC (ie Quakenet) / Jolt coming to Netgamers would not work at all. The day that I started to see complaints about IRC is when things were switched to Netgamers (which is more generalised) from the original PA IRC server.

* PA is a community and as such there should be certain facilities in place. For example, before actually looking deeper into the game, I thought that the F Crew were a bunch of random people who did things. Now understanding things (Ive even read the manual and visited the Wiki this round) I see that F-Crew do a job which shouldnt be down to just one alliance, but something all alliances should do

* The classic Alliance vs Galaxy debate. Granted in the ideal world there is a simple solution for this with 2 Universes, one set aside for Alliance Dominated play and another for newbies and solo players (who in turn can teach the newbies) but from a fiscal point of view, I think Jolt wouldnt do this

* Listening to the community. Yes, here is the anti Jolt part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I am not saying the community is perfect or that it couldn't do more, what I am saying however is that Jolt SHOULD do more, and that Jolt is the MAIN problem, not the only problem by far, but the MAIN problem.
Bashar summed it up quite well for me there. An example of this is the Planetarion Suggestions section on these very forums. The last time something was approved was 12th June, with something being not approved 2 days prior on the 10th June. Granted mid round changes arent the worlds easiest things to do but surely they could be moved to each section to show the community things go on?

Right thats enough from me for now.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 12:35   #50
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Re: Jolt & Netgamers

suggestions forum is out of date yes, i've been moving around a lot so haven't really had time to go through it properly for quite a while. In about a week I should be more settled and have time to go through it.
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