Comments on payments and paypal

[Appocomaster]

I know that a lot of people feel there are limited payment options for Planetarion currently. Unfortunately, some people are trying to take advantage of this. They're offering to take money paypaled to them, and in exchange give credits. However, please be wary of anyone trying to do this as you have no guarentee of getting your credits after giving money via paypal. If you trust them and have known them for a while for example that's probably a safer bet, but we are in no way responsible for any transactions and cannot refund you if it goes wrong.

That's not to say that everyone who has ever offered paypal doesn't give you a credit at the end (indeed, some have successfully had some sort of setup in the past), but please be wary. If you think someone may be trying to cheat others out of money, please inform us (if it's IRC related, the IRC ops in #feds may also wish to know).

We've also recently come across a case of someone offering credit card details to someone else as he was "unfortunately unable to pay from his location". It seems likely (though we haven't finished checking the case out) that it was stolen credit card details used to fund "as many credits as possible", with someone else taking the fall for it. Again, please be alert for this sort of thing, and if in doubt don't hestitate to contact someone in #support on IRC, or any of us by e-mail.

Thanks,

Appocomaster

[Smudge]

Why not just officially use Paypal then? Would appeal to the bulk of the user base and would make the game open to more users

[Razgriz]

I'm fine paying with my card - although i sgree having a paypal option would benifit other users - more acsessable as you say Smudge

[Phil^]

from what i understand about it, jolts issuing bank wont allow paypal payments, therefore jolt cant offer them as an official option

[Stifler]

Originally Posted by Phil^

from what i understand about it, jolts issuing bank wont allow paypal payments, therefore jolt cant offer them as an official option

isnt it to do with paypals charges as well ?

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by Stifler

isnt it to do with paypals charges as well ?

thats probably part of it too.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by Phil^

from what i understand about it, jolts issuing bank wont allow paypal payments, therefore jolt cant offer them as an official option

Then Jolt should look into getting a different bank as not having a widely accepted form of payment as paypal hinders their ability to make money.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by Stifler

isnt it to do with paypals charges as well ?

Ahh, then that makes sense.

[rop1964]

i just want to point out , that in the "journal de montreal" (montreal newpaper) , there was a small section about 3 hacker based in netherland (holland i think) that had succesfully took control over 1.5 million pc , hack into ebay and into paypal.. so i would highly recommend a high security link to those places..

[Paisley]

Is there / Could there be an option to buy credits by cheque or postal order?

[rop1964]

only in europe as far as i know..

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by rop1964

i just want to point out , that in the "journal de montreal" (montreal newpaper) , there was a small section about 3 hacker based in netherland (holland i think) that had succesfully took control over 1.5 million pc , hack into ebay and into paypal.. so i would highly recommend a high security link to those places..

Though I don't know the details, a lot of it was probably from "phishing" - sending fake e-mails out to trick people into giving usernames / passwords.

That's a very separate issue, as with this it'd be you logging into the normal page, and sending £5/£10, and only that amount would be at risk.


On the paypal front, it's roughly what Phil^ said. From what I gathered when I spoke to biffy, paypal has a different setup for money transfers, which sort of breaks Jolt's whole payment system and I think they charge more than the average cc/dc cost. If it were just the costs, I'd talk to Jolt and you guys and if the costs were that different I'd see if making a slightly more expensive paypal credit were ok (if Jolt were that bothered), but apparently it's not just that.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Phil^

from what i understand about it, jolts issuing bank wont allow paypal payments, therefore jolt cant offer them as an official option

And that's not exactly a problem. Paypal is heavily overrated as a payment system and would not offer a service to a lot more people.

What could be done, however, is re-establishing the payment centers, especially since one payment center for european union would be enough because banks are not allowed to charge extra fees for money transfers to a foreign eu country anymore. This will, however, once again fail due to Jolt which prefer that payment centers buy a huge amount of credits at once and then sell those bought credits to pa players.

[wakey]

TBH Appoc I think your making this too big an issue. Yes we live in a world where some people are out to con people out of as much money as they can and we cant get away from it but on the whole the people in this community are all out to help the game and those whom offer others a way to pay in this manner are doing the game alot of good. If at times people dont just put some trust in peoples good natures then we will continue having a bunch of people who join the game, cant pay and never get into the game fully.

By making posts like this all your doing is making out anyone who you dont really know who offers to supply such a service is there to rip them off thus forcing people whom want to help others to either have to a) cease to offer their help or b) hand over the credits BEFORE taking payment which just shifts the liability onto the people trying to help which isnt good. I know personally Ive lost around £100 since p2p due to either people not paying up or worse getting paypal to refund it after ive given them the credit and as such you will find that I now rarely hand out credits before getting payment for them. Its only if I really trust the people that I give the credit first (Although even then you get people whom dont pay. And yes Keg i'm talking about you ) because while I dont mind giving free credits where I can to people who really cant pay I'm not about to hand credits over to people whom are just being tight. And when people rip me off like this its one less person I can help as it means one less free credit I have left

If its something PATeam is really worried about rather than scarmongering why dont you actually do something about it. If you cant take Paypal yourself then the next obvious step is to introduce such community transactions into the game somehow. Simpliest way would be a trade centre where people who will carry out this service will register and then feedback can be given. Seeing as im sure you can see who activated whos account if a negative point is given it should be easy to investigate and if they are found to be commiting fraud you can strike them off (and maybe even delete their PA account). Jolt arent taking transactions directly and all PATeam are doing is acting as independant overseers and we can get away from PATeam making these tabloid newspaper worthy scare stories which put everyone off using paypal unless they trust the person 110%. Even i've had people I was going to buy accounts for back out of it now because of this

[Phil^]

a community trade centre would be a good idea to implement, but in the end nothing can stop people who stay outside of the system trying to take advantage of others

In this case, it was someone trying to get others into trouble by giving them false/stolen cc details, which also results in jolt getting a 'fine' from the cc company for every fraudulant transaction which happens
I think its wise for them to be warning people about those who do that, pass cc details and ask someone else to enter them.

Bet i can guess which country the people giving the fake cc info come from though
if my suspicions are correct, theyve got a nasty habit of it

people who buy credits for others and activate them once they get paid are seperate from that, and in wakeys case its a pity people have backed down, since you are one of the more reputable people out there.

While i was in pateam, i offered paypal payments.
Basically what i did was, i bought a credit with my own cc, and transferred it to the person wanting one using the credit transfer admin tools which leave a log of all actions.
If they didnt pay up i could easily close them, being in pateam as i knew where the credit had gone to.
Since i was in pateam, me not handing over the credit was quite simply not an option due to the position and reputation to uphold, which is why it was a case of credit first, payment later, nonpayment = punishment.

Others outside of pateam dont have that advantage, of being able to act on nonpayers, so wakeys community trading system idea is intruiguing.
It might give those on the outside the same assurance that they will either get paid, or they get the credit they used on someone else back ( perhaps even refunded )

I made a small personal loss on it, due to the paypal charges but its a small price imo which was worth paying.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by wakey

TBH Appoc I think your making this too big an issue. Yes we live in a world where some people are out to con people out of as much money as they can and we cant get away from it but on the whole the people in this community are all out to help the game and those whom offer others a way to pay in this manner are doing the game alot of good. If at times people dont just put some trust in peoples good natures then we will continue having a bunch of people who join the game, cant pay and never get into the game fully.

By making posts like this all your doing is making out anyone who you dont really know who offers to supply such a service is there to rip them off thus forcing people whom want to help others to either have to a) cease to offer their help or b) hand over the credits BEFORE taking payment which just shifts the liability onto the people trying to help which isnt good. I know personally Ive lost around £100 since p2p due to either people not paying up or worse getting paypal to refund it after ive given them the credit and as such you will find that I now rarely hand out credits before getting payment for them. Its only if I really trust the people that I give the credit first (Although even then you get people whom dont pay. And yes Keg i'm talking about you ) because while I dont mind giving free credits where I can to people who really cant pay I'm not about to hand credits over to people whom are just being tight. And when people rip me off like this its one less person I can help as it means one less free credit I have left

If its something PATeam is really worried about rather than scarmongering why dont you actually do something about it. If you cant take Paypal yourself then the next obvious step is to introduce such community transactions into the game somehow. Simpliest way would be a trade centre where people who will carry out this service will register and then feedback can be given. Seeing as im sure you can see who activated whos account if a negative point is given it should be easy to investigate and if they are found to be commiting fraud you can strike them off (and maybe even delete their PA account). Jolt arent taking transactions directly and all PATeam are doing is acting as independant overseers and we can get away from PATeam making these tabloid newspaper worthy scare stories which put everyone off using paypal unless they trust the person 110%. Even i've had people I was going to buy accounts for back out of it now because of this

I didn't mean to make an issue out of it. I know most of the people that do it have the best of intentions, but as you yourself have had bad experiences surely you can see there's an issue for people who can't afford not to get what they wanted either way?

Some sort of trading sounds good. I think that it'd be easier with a passport-type system than ingame (oh no, mention of the passport system ). We were planning something where you could transfer credits over, but some sort of exchange system where you confirm with passwords at either end could probably be used - either to simply transfer credits from one account to the other, or with payment going the other way in paypal or some other form. That, together with a thread / page where people who were offering to pay for credits and people who wanted to pay for credits (maybe listed by country), could well work.

[Shyne]

Paypal accounts arent available to romanians for example, and this is the problem.

I don't think paypal is a solution to the problem here.

[Phil^]

they arent available to romanians, and other countries purely because of the massive credit card fraud which eminates from said countries.
I know that jolt dont allow certain countries to access its payment site either for the exact same reason.
there are those among the populations there which ruin it for the rest.

[Shyne]

Theres no solution, unless a support op in romania can collect. Even then theres trust issues, and no easy solution exists.

[Envious]

why does getting a planet upgraded require the owner to reveal his coords? most people consider this critical information affecting the game, so it shouldn't be needed to give coords away. user id would be sufficient for the upgrade process anyway (unless you want to upgrade planets without their cooperation, but who would do that?)

[madman2k30III]

how about payment methods like "splash plastic" it has become a l;ot more popular as a online trading payment method. no credit cards no bank account details just pay as you use. all the user has to do is go to a local shop put £10 on spend money on credits and still have money left to spend.

[Shyne]

The countries with these problems don't have shops that cope with splash plastic, quite simply.

[A2]

Originally Posted by madman2k30III

how about payment methods like "splash plastic" it has become a l;ot more popular as a online trading payment method. no credit cards no bank account details just pay as you use. all the user has to do is go to a local shop put £10 on spend money on credits and still have money left to spend.

Splashplastic is rather expensive (or was when I last looked a year or so ago) from the retailers point of view.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Just for the record, other than in these forums and the general FAQ from the Support section, i've never heard of Paypal. Or Splashplastic. I think it is likely that they dont exist in Australia, which goes quite a long way to explaining my ignorance.

So clearly, its not important enough to have and thus being paypal free is no loss .

[madman2k30III]

Originally Posted by A2

Splashplastic is rather expensive (or was when I last looked a year or so ago) from the retailers point of view.

maybe jolt or the PA team should start researching new payment methods they obviously want our money so if the want it that much they got to make new ways to get the funds in even if it means for every £5 credit they have to lose 25p or what ever there charge is because in the long run they will make a lot more money. i dont know about the rest of the guys but i would be willing to pay the charge as an addition if it meant covering the costs.

[Ramihyn]

Originally Posted by wakey

If you cant take Paypal yourself then the next obvious step is to introduce such community transactions into the game somehow. Simpliest way would be a trade centre where people who will carry out this service will register and then feedback can be given. Seeing as im sure you can see who activated whos account if a negative point is given it should be easy to investigate and if they are found to be commiting fraud you can strike them off (and maybe even delete their PA account). Jolt arent taking transactions directly and all PATeam are doing is acting as independant overseers and we can get away from PATeam making these tabloid newspaper worthy scare stories which put everyone off using paypal unless they trust the person 110%. Even i've had people I was going to buy accounts for back out of it now because of this

Hmmmm the problem i see with such a suggestion is that because this would be integrated into the game and website of planetarion - which Jolt is fully responsible for - it would be seen as a official service endorsed by Jolt. Now imagine a new player uses such a in-game system to buy a credit or two and gets ripped off. The player would likely not make a distinction between Jolt and the person who ripped them off as the service came "from planetarion" - it could spread the word that "planetarion is ripping people off". Even in front of a court i dont know if Jolt would get away with "we are not responsible for that" if it is in-game offered and fully integrated into Jolts webpages and the game and Jolt profits from it in the most direct way possible - getting money from it. IMHO a "open" in-game service like that where sooner or later "fraud" happens, would be a way too large liability for Jolt.

That (some) people even backed out of buying credits from you (wakey) due to a posting like this is showing how serious a trust problem this is. Maybe we need something like a "chain of trust" or a "trusted person" reputation rating. I'm just doing some brainstorming here but imagine you would be able to give trust points to people like reputation on the forums. Users need to be subscribed 6 months before beeing able to pass on any trust points, once they are a member for 2 years, their trust points are worth 1.5 times as much. Official pa-team member points are 3 times worth as much as "normal users" trust points. That would give people like wakey a fat glowing "trusted" rating while any frauder would have a hard time to compete with that. People could check the trust info of a person to see something like "4 official persons, 18 longtime members and 23 short time members trust this person" or even a tree with the nicks.

Ok i know this suggestion is overkill when you can just do it manually

[Envious]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Just for the record, other than in these forums and the general FAQ from the Support section, i've never heard of Paypal. Or Splashplastic. I think it is likely that they dont exist in Australia, which goes quite a long way to explaining my ignorance.

About as likely as ebay not existing in Australia.
Ehm. You heard of ebay, did you?

https://www.paypal.com/au/
"PayPal, an eBay company"

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Envious

About as likely as ebay not existing in Australia.
Ehm. You heard of ebay, did you?

https://www.paypal.com/au/
"PayPal, an eBay company"

hmm, i just got shot down

Perhaps, to clarify, nothing that i purchase in australia has ever required the use of paypal, no purchase that i can recall has given the option of using paypal, i do not know of anyone who uses paypal, and i have not personally used paypal before.

How about that? .

[bwtmc]

It's use is pretty widespread. ;P

[Shyne]

But you can get a visa/mastercard in australia anyway.

Problem is bigger in countries with fewer players or inability to get credit (eastern europe) for example.

[smeg9]

Paypal is good because of it's popularity. People who have been ripped off by paypal, can appeal to them, they have a big anti fraud system.

Jolt could support it if they wanted to, and why not? This is a software solution. Giving someone an account does not mean Jolt LOOSE any money, or that the charges will affect them too much (Given that if 1000 extra users signed up via paypal and Jolt gets only £2.50 per account instead of £3 say) then it would be £2,500 they wouldn't have had before!!! The only time it costs money is if they get 1000, 2000 more users and need to purchase new hardware AKA Servers. But then I think it would pay for it's self.

What would it cost? 2 - 3 man days?

Pre-payment cards was great when I was fourteen, all my friends got a splash plastic card! I wouldn't have been able to play PA back then (How many people played the first couple of P2P games), I probably wouldn't be playing now.

There are some solutions that don't cost the retailer so much, but the actual card holder.. And the retailer gains money, (for top-ups) etc.

Explore the options, jolt, do Cost Benefit analysis, trials. It's software more users = more money, even if a percentage is taken!!!

(tie it in with a marketing scheme) Adverts in PCZone and the such.

[Ace]

I find it weird the don't accept AMEX as CC payment or the above said paypal.
I can pay all over the world with my AMEX card but can't pay PA credits with it.

I had to use other ways to get my credits for rounds now and I don't like that.
It does make me buy less credits thats for sure.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by smeg9

Paypal is good because of it's popularity. People who have been ripped off by paypal, can appeal to them, they have a big anti fraud system.

Jolt could support it if they wanted to, and why not? This is a software solution. Giving someone an account does not mean Jolt LOOSE any money, or that the charges will affect them too much (Given that if 1000 extra users signed up via paypal and Jolt gets only £2.50 per account instead of £3 say) then it would be £2,500 they wouldn't have had before!!! The only time it costs money is if they get 1000, 2000 more users and need to purchase new hardware AKA Servers. But then I think it would pay for it's self.

What would it cost? 2 - 3 man days?

Pre-payment cards was great when I was fourteen, all my friends got a splash plastic card! I wouldn't have been able to play PA back then (How many people played the first couple of P2P games), I probably wouldn't be playing now.

There are some solutions that don't cost the retailer so much, but the actual card holder.. And the retailer gains money, (for top-ups) etc.

Explore the options, jolt, do Cost Benefit analysis, trials. It's software more users = more money, even if a percentage is taken!!!

(tie it in with a marketing scheme) Adverts in PCZone and the such.

I've already mentioned paypal stuff:

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

On the paypal front, it's roughly what Phil^ said. From what I gathered when I spoke to biffy, paypal has a different setup for money transfers, which sort of breaks Jolt's whole payment system and I think they charge more than the average cc/dc cost. If it were just the costs, I'd talk to Jolt and you guys and if the costs were that different I'd see if making a slightly more expensive paypal credit were ok (if Jolt were that bothered), but apparently it's not just that.

Also, many people would prefer to go with paypal than other things. While it may bring in x money, other people will go paypal, loosing them y money.

[ChipZ^]

http://www.paypalwarning.com/ paypal rocks :|

[smeg9]

Also, many people would prefer to go with paypal than other things. While it may bring in x money, other people will go paypal, loosing them y money.

This is true, others might use paypal instead of their credit card...

I can't see how paypal is against jolt, because it is held in a different account, jolt can easily start a new company "planetarion ltd" or something who knows.

Look into Splashplastic then, as I say, I knew at least 5 people with them cards (in R/L) for the sole purpose of playing PA.

Which merchant tools do you use now? Worldpay?

[Shyne]

People with splashplastic cards are almost certainly eligible for Solo debit cards. The problem as Ive said before is those who can't get these CARDS.

Paypal can get you shafted, but the majority of fraudsters buy expensive intangible goods, rather than cheap ones (a £3 pa credit)

[smeg9]

Maybe, maybe not, I don't think a 12 - 14 y/o can goto a bank (HSBC) and open an account, where a splashplastic is free and no bank accounts need opening.

Also most places do not accept solo or electron as they are too easily frauded. Most online places will NOT accpet them, no do Petrol stations etc etc.

[Brug]

What is the problem with American Express?

And what about an international bank transfer?

CC holders must have a bank account, Jolt must have a bank account. An international bank transfer is free of extra charges, if its done between banks in the Europian Union and the IBAN code is used.

I mailed PA payement about that, but never got a reply

[smeg9]

Bank Transfer sounds good, not as easy to automate, not impossible, but not as easy..

Problem I see is that the largest user base (or at least it used to be) is high school kids, aged 13,14,15,16 etc..Who might not have a bank account / cheque book / Debit Card.

they will probably buy sweets and stuff with cash in shops. But want to play PA.

[Intruder]

Originally Posted by Envious

why does getting a planet upgraded require the owner to reveal his coords? most people consider this critical information affecting the game, so it shouldn't be needed to give coords away. user id would be sufficient for the upgrade process anyway (unless you want to upgrade planets without their cooperation, but who would do that?)

idd, this should be taken into suggestions forums. i dont feel confortable with some sittuations, last rnd i tryed to get a credit for some mate and we were in oposte sides, ig his coords had leaked on the rnd start prolly i would the first person he would think for obvious reasons... user id to upgrade should be enough

[Catif]

Originally Posted by Brug

What is the problem with American Express?

American Express charge a higher handling fee for transactions which is why it is not that widely used - most places in the uk dont like taking it - and i couldnt use it to get into america from canada (they wanted to charge me 6USD) but they would accept my mastercard

I solved the credits problem.. I'll upgrade galmates for the princely sum of a postcard posted by them to my wife from wherever they live. All they have to do is write a short message from me to her on the card, add a stamp and my address, then stick it into a postbox and voila ! One upgrade.

Everywhere has postcards and a postal service. Anyone can buy a card and a stamp.

Works every time !

NetMonkey

[B-Killa]

I think paypal would be a better way to purchase credit. I been doing "busness" with them for 2 years, and never had a problem. Once, I've even been refunded when someone "dissapered" with my money.

But to purchase planetarion credit, you have to use jolt system.
I brought 3 credit at the end of the last round. But when i registered my
new accound, my credit did not follow. Assasin told me that beteween
round, it was not possible to have credit. So since i purchased them
when havoc was running fast tick, it could explain why all this happend.

But now, i lost 20 $ and i have no credit. When i try to contact help, they refer me to another person, and the other person to another...
Now i'm still waiting (+- 3 weeks)... and it feel like, nobody care. This would never happend with a big compagny. So who fault? Jolt ? Planetarion (Bug) ? This can affect the reputation of both compagny, even if only 1 of them is the cause of it...

[Appocomaster]

Replied to the post here, but for the record paypal wouldn't have changed the situation (it may have even made it more complicated)

[A2]

Originally Posted by Brug

What is the problem with American Express?

Amex have much higher transaction charges than MasterCard and Visa which is why they're much less widely accepted than other cards.

[A2]

Originally Posted by Brug

And what about an international bank transfer?

CC holders must have a bank account, Jolt must have a bank account. An international bank transfer is free of extra charges, if its done between banks in the Europian Union and the IBAN code is use.

International bank transfers are not free. There is an arrangement between banks in the Euro-zone, but as Jolt/Planetarion is based in the UK this does not apply. When transferring money between the UK and Europe you lose money on commission and a variety of charges depending on the precise combination of banks used. If you get outside the EU it becomes even more complicated. I don't know what the Norway to UK charges are like, but when I transferred money to Spinner on 1 occasion from the UK to Norway ot cost £15 on the UK end, and I had to tick a box that said "deduct additional (ie. recieving bank) charges from money sent" Taking the charges from the money transferred would not be an option for paying for an account as the money that arrived may well not be sufficient. It would be possible to pay by International Bank Transfer, but in order to get the right amount to arrive would be a massive pain.

[randal]

Originally Posted by ChipZ^

http://www.paypalwarning.com/ paypal rocks :|

ain't their goal to sell some other system..

[A2]

The main reason (last time I looked about a year ago) not to use Paypal was that for Planetarion it would not be possible to apply for a business account. As such there would be significantly less protection than for places that accept PayPal as a PayPal Business Transaction. The reason why Planetarion would not be able to apply for a PayPal Business account is that a Business Account is only allowed where you are selling a 'tangible good', meaning something that you have bought and can hold in your hands. Buying an account for an online game would not be covered by that and the only way for Planetarion to get round that would be to send ayone who paid through PayPal an unique payment activation code through a service such as DHL/UPS/ParcelForce/Fedex etc where reciept could be proven. Obviously this would add significantly to the costs involved in buying an account, and would vary unfairly (excluding currency conversion rates) depending on the location of the player.

[Malice]

Money Orders.

They do not require a bank account. It does not require Credit Card. It does not require Paypal. They are free to deposit and cash in.

Any kid with the cash in their pocket can walk to the local post office and buy one.

I suppose it is too easy, and doesn't offer much for discussion or debate.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by A2

The main reason (last time I looked about a year ago) not to use Paypal was that for Planetarion it would not be possible to apply for a business account. As such there would be significantly less protection than for places that accept PayPal as a PayPal Business Transaction. The reason why Planetarion would not be able to apply for a PayPal Business account is that a Business Account is only allowed where you are selling a 'tangible good', meaning something that you have bought and can hold in your hands. Buying an account for an online game would not be covered by that and the only way for Planetarion to get round that would be to send ayone who paid through PayPal an unique payment activation code through a service such as DHL/UPS/ParcelForce/Fedex etc where reciept could be proven. Obviously this would add significantly to the costs involved in buying an account, and would vary unfairly (excluding currency conversion rates) depending on the location of the player.

are you sure about the tangible thing, i;ve bought downl;oad only software via paypal before