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Unread 4 May 2006, 08:37   #1
Kjeldoran
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Banshees are a joke ...

I'm a big fan of XAN. I've always been xan and I will always remain xan, regardless of how fked the stats might be.
Because I'm a fan of the fast fleet that comes in large numbers and shoots before the others do (with the exception of Cath, but their ships freeze).

But I believe this round, the Banshee is the most useless ship in this game. Especially since it's the only means of anti FR defence that Xan have.

Who attacks with FR? XAN and Caths.
Against cath, they're useless since it takes 100 recluses to freeze 1000 banshees (and recluse are rather cheap tbh).

Against XAN it's even more useless when the attacker sends Revenants alongside. Even if you have loads of banshees, if you defend then you still need to sarcefice too much for some louzy roids, and the attacker knows this aswell.

So basicly XAN need to rely on FR defence from other races. If e.g. it'd have been battleship pods, then I'd have no problem with it.

But FR's ... 2 races can attack with FR's ...

So plz, for next round, fix this
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Unread 4 May 2006, 10:18   #2
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

While I agree to an extent, won't spectres make short work of revs, making it foolish to send them along in some cases?
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Unread 4 May 2006, 10:18   #3
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Well, it's true.

Except that they are nice against Xan FR if you got some Spectre as backup. But still, you're completely powerless against any Cath FR incoming. Make it hard to cover it? Yes. Make it impossible? No, imo.
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Unread 4 May 2006, 10:48   #4
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

ya, but how few XAN's do actually have Spectres? Still, they are no solution against the obviously ease Cath have with roiding XAN. So far, 95% of my attackers have been cathaar.
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Unread 4 May 2006, 11:57   #5
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
So far, 95% of my attackers have been cathaar.
Then its not really 2 races that can hit you, is it?

While I agree that banshee's may suck, against caths you have both mandrake and scorpions. The game is all about teamplay, and as long as your own banshees are home another CO fleet from an ally mate can usually cover you just through flakking.

I don't see the big deal :s
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Unread 4 May 2006, 12:26   #6
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
ya, but how few XAN's do actually have Spectres?
Competent xans should have spectres either now or within a day.
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Unread 4 May 2006, 12:48   #7
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

this isn't the problem with the stats, the problem is there is no room for any sort of flair, it's utterly bland and ****ing boring. how anyone could make zik a boring race to play, i'll never know! the other races always have been, and always will be tedious but come on! zik is just plain dreadful (not in terms of balance, just fun)
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Unread 4 May 2006, 12:59   #8
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Competent xans should have spectres either now or within a day.
Don't worry, I have them
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Unread 4 May 2006, 13:28   #9
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
this isn't the problem with the stats, the problem is there is no room for any sort of flair, it's utterly bland and ****ing boring. how anyone could make zik a boring race to play, i'll never know! the other races always have been, and always will be tedious but come on! zik is just plain dreadful (not in terms of balance, just fun)
Why are they boring? Ive just stolen my first ships since i was last a Zik in R7. Its great, 300 cathaar FR for free \o/

Would you mind elaborating for the ignorant (like me) plz?
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Unread 4 May 2006, 13:37   #10
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

At least recluses only freeze banshees. When a Zik attacks a Terran the phoenixes die before they even fire.
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Unread 4 May 2006, 15:05   #11
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
At least recluses only freeze banshees. When a Zik attacks a Terran the phoenixes die before they even fire.
True to a point but the armour more than makes up for that. 2.5k assassin to kill ~850 nix is just hideous as ziks are most unlikely to be assassin heavy like that and I've seen more than a few 600+ nix fleets that cover otherwise difficult calls with a single fleet.
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Unread 4 May 2006, 15:23   #12
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
True to a point but the armour more than makes up for that. 2.5k assassin to kill ~850 nix is just hideous as ziks are most unlikely to be assassin heavy like that and I've seen more than a few 600+ nix fleets that cover otherwise difficult calls with a single fleet.
From my perspective, I've seen a lot of assassins. They usually come around in paired bulks of 3000-4000.
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Unread 4 May 2006, 17:11   #13
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
From my perspective, I've seen a lot of assassins. They usually come around in paired bulks of 3000-4000.
Shouldn't be such a HC fatty then should you ;p
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Unread 4 May 2006, 17:13   #14
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Competent xans should have spectres either now or within a day.
Im going to roid a 900 roid cat with spectre today. Watch the show folks
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Unread 4 May 2006, 18:44   #15
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

I wish you good luck (if it's me then I won't)

but yeah, i can even fake fr as cr and still freeze all the banshees that most of the xans have
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Unread 4 May 2006, 18:45   #16
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Idler
Im going to roid a 900 roid cat with spectre today. Watch the show folks
Was it fish by any chance?

Hahhahahahaha. Lol.
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Unread 4 May 2006, 21:34   #17
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

I have concluded that I need more banshee. 5k more infact
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Unread 5 May 2006, 04:05   #18
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
But I believe this round, the Banshee is the most useless ship in this game. Especially since it's the only means of anti FR defence that Xan have.

Who attacks with FR? XAN and Caths.
Against cath, they're useless since it takes 100 recluses to freeze 1000 banshees (and recluse are rather cheap tbh).

Against XAN it's even more useless when the attacker sends Revenants alongside. Even if you have loads of banshees, if you defend then you still need to sarcefice too much for some louzy roids, and the attacker knows this aswell.
I'd rather say once you are above the amount of banshees the reventants can kill the attacker starts shivering. Any attacker who knows what hes doing will recall once theres liek 1000 banshees able to fire at his FR(atm). Imo a thing defenders can use(ofc with a risk. go salvage).

I do agree tho that Banshees are wank. Get scorpions

-Jonas
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Unread 5 May 2006, 09:18   #19
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas
I'd rather say once you are above the amount of banshees the reventants can kill the attacker starts shivering. Any attacker who knows what hes doing will recall once theres liek 1000 banshees able to fire at his FR(atm). Imo a thing defenders can use(ofc with a risk. go salvage).

I do agree tho that Banshees are wank. Get scorpions

-Jonas
Lol, if you have 2k FR's and lose like what 200-300 FR's while you can kill 10k or more banshees and cap some sweet roids then hell, I'd land without a doubt.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 09:22   #20
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Spectres scare off xan attackers, though was a problem earlier on...thats exactly the problem with xan this round...or more with cath this round

caths were able to grow pretty fast due to their immunity vs fr, xan are rather immune vs xan fr incs now but still ****ed vs cath (question is if the caths will spend more on cr now...then it should balance a bit again)

and:

Terrans go for the caths
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Unread 5 May 2006, 09:23   #21
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Lol, if you have 2k FR's and lose like what 200-300 FR's while you can kill 10k or more banshees and cap some sweet roids then hell, I'd land without a doubt.
yeah the usual 1800 rev´s in a xan attack fleet
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Unread 5 May 2006, 09:50   #22
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

banshees do actually kill something? I never realised

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaponX
and:
Terrans go for the caths
dont remind on that terran de fleets. I hate them - would need terrans to stop them (chimera) but as none I can see around went ter, there is no use, spiders and illus suck big time, spectres are too slow and too weak as well, and well about the roach I biatched around enough allready...
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Unread 5 May 2006, 09:58   #23
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

While I agree, its nice to see Cat be overpowered for once rather than underpowered as usual.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 10:03   #24
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Was it fish by any chance?

Hahhahahahaha. Lol.
lol, I built BW, but it wasnt me because i havent yet had 900 roids. DEF ME MORE GATE.


edit: Would a xan fr hitting de have balanced the stats a little more? making scorp weaker....
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Unread 5 May 2006, 11:20   #25
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

The way attacks go in top alliances, it doesn't matter if you're protected against 5 classes or only 1.

Because you'll get waved by the shipclass you're weak against. And the amount of waves will be the same (like 6 waves of CATH on me ...)
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Unread 5 May 2006, 13:38   #26
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
While I agree, its nice to see Cat be overpowered for once rather than underpowered as usual.
r12, 14, 15 and 17 vs 11, 13 and 16.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 13:46   #27
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

It's always the same, Caths suck big time or they're overpowered. Why can't they balance the caths to be decent in some rounds
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Unread 5 May 2006, 13:47   #28
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

The problem with cathaar is the nature of freezing. Offensively they're always good. However defensively they either work or they don't. If they work you can't cap roids off them. If they don't they get waved to death because they're loss-free roids. It's a fundamental dichotomy!

If I had to propose a simple solution I'd say don't give cathaar zero-loss defence kill ships.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 13:53   #29
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Wasn't there a thing some rounds ago that some of the emped ships got destroyed or something like that ? Or am I living in a dream world again and imaging things that didn't happen ?
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Unread 5 May 2006, 13:55   #30
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

I sincerely hope not.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 13:57   #31
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Which ? the thing that some of the emped ships got destroyed or that I live in a dream world ?
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Unread 5 May 2006, 14:03   #32
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The problem with cathaar is the nature of freezing. Offensively they're always good. However defensively they either work or they don't. If they work you can't cap roids off them. If they don't they get waved to death because they're loss-free roids. It's a fundamental dichotomy!
I hate it when JBG is correct and you basicly can't counter him ... bah !!
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Unread 5 May 2006, 14:06   #33
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

I think the last solution will be to call him with names.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 14:10   #34
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotatrix
I think the last solution will be to call him with names.
Yes I've been considering that, but then Lokken on his white horse comes and save the day again

Nway on topic, the biggest disadvantage Cath have atm is that it's no risk at all to attack them. In the worst case you lose about 20 ticks in which your fleet has done nothing usefull.

One of the reasons I'd never play cath is that if you get attacked and got millions of resources stacked, you can't surprise him and kill most of his fleet. Best you can do is freeze him ... the attacker isn't gonna whine about it.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 14:15   #35
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

So people aren't whining about cath imbaness at the moment ?
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Unread 5 May 2006, 14:26   #36
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
r12, 14, 15 and 17 vs 11, 13 and 16.
Utterly right, thought i think it was furball who said earlier that either cat are shite or they end up overpowered.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 14:57   #37
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Yes I've been considering that, but then Lokken on his white horse comes and save the day again

Nway on topic, the biggest disadvantage Cath have atm is that it's no risk at all to attack them. In the worst case you lose about 20 ticks in which your fleet has done nothing usefull.

One of the reasons I'd never play cath is that if you get attacked and got millions of resources stacked, you can't surprise him and kill most of his fleet. Best you can do is freeze him ... the attacker isn't gonna whine about it.
you forgot the scorps and the mantis
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Unread 5 May 2006, 15:05   #38
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
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you forgot the scorps and the mantis
I'm talking in general tbh
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Unread 5 May 2006, 15:20   #39
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If I had to propose a simple solution I'd say don't give cathaar zero-loss defence kill ships.
Jester tried that. And I'm trying it with the roach. Though personally, I think the roach is brilliant, most people say it sucks.

As for the insults over the stats, instead of using anonymous rep and messages, maybe contribute something constructive, ty.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 15:34   #40
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Jester tried that :/
yes, blame it on your precedor ... MATURE !!!
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Unread 5 May 2006, 16:12   #41
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Jester tried that :/
Well at least try and avoid having half of the attack fleets in the game countered by zero-loss cath defence. Which also makes eta just for shits and giggles.

Also you have those four attack fleets double-targetted (obviously) with the emp ships. And then you have the fact that those 4 attack fleets probably make up more than 50% of the attack fleets in the universe.

PS I'm not trying to be hard on you here gate. I think building a balanced set of stats is probably only one order of difficulty short of building a working society from the ground up. There are fundamental shifts that people just don't see pre-round. In general there are a few things that don't shift too much, like the race ratio usually seems to go 6:4:5:5 terran:cath:xan:zik with at most one numeral of differentation on other side. Xan fleets must have zero loss kill defence which makes eta against them. Zik roiding fleets cannot contain self-targetting steal ships. Cath zero-loss defence ships are generally powerful. There are loads of little things and they all create a chain-reaction when you change any of them and only a real round shows how strong they are sometimes
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Unread 5 May 2006, 16:24   #42
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxi
Utterly right, thought i think it was furball who said earlier that either cat are shite or they end up overpowered.
Actually, I took Jester (Banned)'s point about this and spammed it in every thread that moaned about Cath in one way or another.

There was a long debate about Cath while stats were being worked on in the beta. I'll reproduce it for some of you here now. It's long but it will explain a lot of the thinking behind the stats. For the competent forum users, it all starts from here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I was worried that I had overpowered cath, and I've had complaints about CR being too powerful as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I think you should take a good, hard look at CR this round to see why CR isn't too powerful next round. On a simple ship to ship basis, the damage/armor ratios might be good, but CR is largely competing with attack fleets, which means you're likely to face planets having 50-80% of their value in these fleets, as opposed to the average 15-30% for defense fleets. This means that when people call for anti-CR, they'll want and appreciate large amounts of Ghosts (which people will have because they can use phantoms/seraphs to fake their FR) and Barghests. Barghs fire at great efficiency against Tulas and Hornets, meaning that despite surviving Roach, they'll force recalls more often than not. Equal value Barghs and 'balanced' CR fleets will result in heavy casualties for the CR, while low casualties (after salvage) for the Barghs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Meanwhile, in terms of defence, caths are immune to cath FR (recluse stun vipers, preventing them from shooting, scorpions are 0-loss FR killships), xand FR (scorps alone) and cath CR (mantis). They can also be very tough to roid with zik CR and terran DE, leaving one fleet from each of the other races that only goes up against EMP; compared with this round when it was easy to roid caths with ter DE, ter BS, cath FR, xan FI, xan FR or zik CO...
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Repeat after me:
Cath are not immune to any attacks.
Cath are not immune to any attacks.
Cath are not immune to any attacks

How can you consider anyone immune to an attack when all the attack has to do is flak past them for 0-loss???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Listen to the man, Gate. I've been labeled 'cath killer' for not paying attention to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
And then you just get multiple attackers on that target and you're back to square one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
It'll always be easy to roid Cath because they put their resources into their attack fleets, then attack with them. A Cath cannot survive without roiding every single day, because they are screwed on defence. You know yourself how easy it is to attack Caths if you've got enough of the right ship. That's why Cath must be strong on attack. Cath was screwed in Round 13 because one of their fleets was bad on attack - and I don't want to see a repeat for Round 17.
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
even if it's inefficient to roid a Cath with a certain class (due to mass EMP), one or two more attackers will make it viable again. The lack of killing prevents immunity.

On the lower tiers, no-one is immune.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Which is why I hate Cath, it's so blatantly the 'top10 planets and scanners only' race.

Almost to the point where I think all races should have the same base 6 ships, with 3 'flavor' ships and pods/SKs the only real difference.




There's a lot more to that debate than I've pasted in here, and it gets rather philosophical near the end. Further, the stats were a work in progress and they changed as the debate went on. I didn't look at the final stats, let alone calc them. All those who want to be 'the stats maker', get involved in these threads or keep out of the way. I heard some time ago that Troll's a bit of a stats-maker, but no-one will ever know without some useful contributions from him on the Strategy forum.

So - let's all just wait for the races and fleet sizes to balance out at around tick 800. Until then, kthxbye.
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Unread 5 May 2006, 19:10   #43
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
yes, blame it on your precedor ... MATURE !!!
JBG made a constructive comment. However, last round, cathaar killships were generally targetted by what they defended against (eg beetle vs. recl/tzen, viper vs peg). In that round, cathaar were not a particularly great race to play, indeed, in my opinion they were unbalanced.

What the hell are you on about Kj?
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Unread 5 May 2006, 20:02   #44
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
JBG made a constructive comment. However, last round, cathaar killships were generally targetted by what they defended against (eg beetle vs. recl/tzen, viper vs peg). In that round, cathaar were not a particularly great race to play, indeed, in my opinion they were unbalanced.
'Generally' = 60% of the opposing fleets (5 total) (this round it's 5 and 20%)

Cath is better balanced this round than last, but there are still issues.

In my opinion both myself and Gate have a bit to learn about making stats, and while I have no plans to ever make stats again*, giving Gate shit about how Cath are this round isn't going to improve the situation. There needs to be actual discussion, not just 'lol, banshees suck'. What is the design problem behind the Cath FR / Banshee problem? How can it be avoided without turning Cath to crap?

I think Cath is too good defensively this round. However, I think it would be better to tone down Cathaar's offensive capabilities and keep the defensive side of things fairly similar in an attempt to balance them with other races.

However, races are inherently unbalanced and it's unlikely that keeping them will ever lead to a situation where the decision made on sign-up counts as much or little as the decisions made during the game.

* that's what I said after r13
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Unread 6 May 2006, 01:53   #45
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Nway on topic, the biggest disadvantage Cath have atm is that it's no risk at all to attack them. In the worst case you lose about 20 ticks in which your fleet has done nothing usefull.
I'm a cath this round, and i'm doing crap atm. Barely in top 800, and never been attacked by frigs this round. Since there's no risk of attacking me, i guess the reason is because of those 20 ticks. Or maybe some ppl consider it a risk, if a cath is able to build an addiotional 100 scorps. With the amount of frigs in this game, there gotta be some ppl staying away from caths because of the risk

When it comes to banshee, they're still good enough for anti-xan-fr.
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Unread 6 May 2006, 09:43   #46
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

well its a problem that both the races with fr pods have low innit frigs, makes def kinda hard vs them

one idea would be to swap back cath pods to co again
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Unread 6 May 2006, 12:40   #47
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
In my opinion both myself and Gate have a bit to learn about making stats, and while I have no plans to ever make stats again*, giving Gate shit about how Cath are this round isn't going to improve the situation. There needs to be actual discussion, not just 'lol, banshees suck'. What is the design problem behind the Cath FR / Banshee problem? How can it be avoided without turning Cath to crap?

I think Cath is too good defensively this round. However, I think it would be better to tone down Cathaar's offensive capabilities and keep the defensive side of things fairly similar in an attempt to balance them with other races.
In my opinion, the primary "issue" with the statistics this round is the broad use of zero-loss defence fleets. And the mentality in which they are used. I think, scorpion overblows the defensive capabilities at the point where it becomes able to stop two *major* fleets on their toes without getting backlashed.

Take mandrake. It has fairly limited capabilities against xandathrii, and it mainly prevents xandathrii a lot smaller than you sending fleets at you. But it's very effective and fast zero-loss defence against cathaar frigate fleets. I think it's quite balanced there. Take scorpion. Granted, it's slower than the mandrake, but it degenerates the existance of two attack fleets in general. Zero-loss fleets are a handy and good way to limit attacking efficiency (props to Gate here), but it's generally agreed that scorpion (paired with spider's high initiative) off-shoots it. How to work through it? I think a ship able to zero-loss one attack fleet is okay and even good. But I believe it goes off limits when a ship goes zero-loss against two attack fleets, neither of which can really add additional ships to prevent it.

What makes xandathrii this round "poor" in many people's eyes, is that it's not the "fast going first firing race" as much; the fighters are only really useful against cathaar (then there's pegasus, shadow, and brigand, two of which are zero-loss). (lovely hindsight) Allowing fighter fleets to attack zikonians would perhaps balance things up: a minor bumpup on thief would keep zikonian anti-fi "existant", and targetting revamp of brigand would allow xandathriis to have two targets for fighter fleets - increasing the amount of fighter fleets in the universe and thus also giving cathaar some trouble (regardless of scorpion).

Hindsight is the best sight, but I'm just giving a constructive view on the statistics, as asked for. Improving xandathrii fighter fleet (through removal of some zero-loss defence) would but give cathaar some trouble also balance off the amount of assassins in corvette fleets giving terrans a tiny chance of making it harder for zikonians half your value just to run over things.
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Unread 6 May 2006, 12:47   #48
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
In my opinion, the primary "issue" with the statistics this round is the broad use of zero-loss defence fleets.
My point was that there needs to be a broader discussion than just 'this ship is bad because of this one problem'. Sure, your analysis provides decent reasoning for there never being a Scorpion again (until the next statsmaker that hasn't read your post), but with that design model we're never actually going to get past a continual run of trial and error.
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Unread 6 May 2006, 13:31   #49
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

By "that design model", what are you refering to? The general way stats are designed at the moment (each race has a combination of more or less unique ships) in compared to what you've been occasionally suggesting (all races having 6 equal ships and then 3 flavour ships and pod-class differences)?

(excuse my lousy English, I just didn't quite catch it).

Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that PaN would probably bring in a bit different combat engine with possibly a new scenario to work with statistics-wise too?
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Unread 6 May 2006, 13:47   #50
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Re: Banshees are a joke ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
By "that design model", what are you refering to? The general way stats are designed at the moment (each race has a combination of more or less unique ships) in compared to what you've been occasionally suggesting (all races having 6 equal ships and then 3 flavour ships and pod-class differences)?
No, I mean an abstraction on stats to allow for better design. Avoiding overpowered ships like the Scorpion would be baked into the whole design process.

Quote:
Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that PaN would probably bring in a bit different combat engine with possibly a new scenario to work with statistics-wise too?
Reasonable to expect, but I don't expect PaN to come around any time soon, besides which a robust design model would be transferrable.
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