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5 Feb 2006, 00:23
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#1
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Fuss about Danish Drawings
While there obvious cultural differences here, I think these current events are a great indication of how fundamentally different the values of middle eastern countries are from democratic values. I don't believe anymore that democracy is possible in the middle east. I know it's a gross general statement that doesn't apply to every citizen of those countries, but when you have mobs that burn down embassies because they're upset about someone exhibiting their freedom of expression I think there are a major challenges to the creation democratic institutions.
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5 Feb 2006, 00:37
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
this should make an interesting read tomorrow.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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5 Feb 2006, 00:38
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#3
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,332
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
If "a muslim" were to look at the British National Party or France's Fronte Nationale or some other extremist group (the Republican party, lol!) then they'd probably come to the conclusion that democracy in western countries was a bad idea.
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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5 Feb 2006, 01:21
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#4
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
If "a muslim" were to look at the British National Party or France's Fronte Nationale or some other extremist group (the Republican party, lol!) then they'd probably come to the conclusion that democracy in western countries was a bad idea.
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Yeah except those groups manage to amass a critical mass of the population and storm the streets and burn down foreign embassies. Also, obviously democracy is possible in western countries as that's the system employed now.
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5 Feb 2006, 01:31
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#5
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Has Soup On His Head
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,095
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Can anyone find a net link to the actual drawings themselves? Most search engines are drawing (sic) a blank for me.
(cue conspiracy theories about Google/Yahoo/MSN blocking links to these in case theyre attacked by radical muslim groups)
__________________
And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
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5 Feb 2006, 01:37
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#6
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Dirte
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,573
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Yeah except those groups manage to amass a critical mass of the population and storm the streets and burn down foreign embassies. Also, obviously democracy is possible in western countries as that's the system employed now.
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So, when 2000 nazies march thorught Stockholm while the anti-nazi demo is 1000 (the big public one), isnt that the same? Or when they attack the gayparade, or antifa demoes? Or when 5000 nazies march in Moscow and kill people afterwards? How much percentage did the nazies get in Germany during one of the elections that was a year or so ago? And isnt Le Pen pretty popular in France? Why does a very racist and authoritan party get almost 1/5 of the votes in Norway? Did you notice the Australian race riots just before (or was it just after) christmas?
And on the other scale, the leftwing militants. When a mob of 500 attacks the Israelli embasy in Oslo on a two-day notice demo, whats that? Or when scattered groups of about 1500 miltants shut down stocholm centrum due to nazies? I could list a thousand examples of violence, mobstyle, that occurs in the western world. Not all of it I sympatize with (nazies, for instance) but some of them are done by the most democratic groups we got!
Besides, the western European style of democracy is piss, and it's shamefull that it's even called that. To vote once in a while is not what democracy means, at least not in my book.
__________________
"Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he makes waffles not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it."
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5 Feb 2006, 01:40
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#7
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
there is a link posted by 1-X in my thread about it, somewhere on the first page
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lazy
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5 Feb 2006, 02:14
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#8
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Freedom of expression isn't a democratic ideal.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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5 Feb 2006, 02:29
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#9
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Freedom of expression isn't a democratic ideal.
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Freedom of expression is a necessary component of democracy.
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5 Feb 2006, 02:31
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#10
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Can anyone find a net link to the actual drawings themselves? Most search engines are drawing (sic) a blank for me.
(cue conspiracy theories about Google/Yahoo/MSN blocking links to these in case theyre attacked by radical muslim groups)
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http://danishcartoons.ytmnd.com/ There's a bunch there.
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5 Feb 2006, 02:34
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#11
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You love me really
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 342
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Danish bacon danish bacon, yummy yummy yummy yummy yummy yum yum
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5 Feb 2006, 02:36
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#12
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Freedom of expression is a necessary component of democracy.
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No, it isn't.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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5 Feb 2006, 02:44
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#13
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Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No, it isn't.
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Then obviously some people seriously disagree with you as they think freedom of expression is a necessary foundation for democracy even.
Obviously we would need to exactly define "freedom" and "expression" and the exceptions which limit them - its not like you can legally say whatever you want in public because of "freedom of expression". Would be interesting to know if ANY place on earth actually allows that.
I think the topic is currently a bit too serious to make nitpicking remarks of "No, it isnt" if you just want to provoke o.O
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5 Feb 2006, 02:47
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#14
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wasted
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Under the floorboards
Posts: 1,240
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
It's a necessary component of liberal democracy, which is what most Western people mean when they say "democracy" - this being the particular type of democracy that most of us live under.
It should be (but isn't) recognised that it's entirely possible to have an illiberal democracy, and that such a thing isn't really much better for the people who live in it than an illiberal autocracy, and is almost certainly worse than a liberal autocracy.
__________________
“They were totally confused,” said the birdman, whose flying suit gives him a passing resemblance to Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story. “The authorities said that I was an unregistered aircraft and to fly, you need a licence. I told them, ‘No. To fly, you need wings’.”
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5 Feb 2006, 02:49
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#15
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Then obviously some people seriously disagree with you as they think freedom of expression is a necessary foundation for democracy even.
Obviously we would need to exactly define "freedom" and "expression" and the exceptions which limit them - its not like you can legally say whatever you want in public because of "freedom of expression". Would be interesting to know if ANY place on earth actually allows that.
I think the topic is currently a bit too serious to make nitpicking remarks of "No, it isnt" if you just want to provoke o.O
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The necessary foundation of democracy is people being free to vote. Merely because real world examples do not exist does not mean you can pretend words mean something they don't.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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5 Feb 2006, 02:52
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#16
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Merely because real world examples do not exist does not mean you can pretend words mean something they don't.
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lol metaphor for western civilisation
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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5 Feb 2006, 02:54
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#17
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deserves a medal
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
It takes more time to create a democracy like ours in the Middle East.
Or do you think we got our democracy and freedom of speech over night?
__________________
"I have with me two gods, Persuasion and Compulsion."
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5 Feb 2006, 03:01
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#18
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No, it isn't.
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Are you goading me? Because you're being ridiculous.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:01
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#19
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deserves a medal
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Even the political direction of our country's were ruled by religious beliefs, less then a century ago..
and in some it's still happening
That's the power of democracy
__________________
"I have with me two gods, Persuasion and Compulsion."
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5 Feb 2006, 03:02
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#20
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The necessary foundation of democracy is people being free to vote. Merely because real world examples do not exist does not mean you can pretend words mean something they don't.
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And you're not free to vote if you're not informed.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:03
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#21
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And you're not free to vote if you're not informed.
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No, you're not free to vote if you're being prevented from voting. There's a difference.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:06
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#22
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No, you're not free to vote if you're being prevented from voting. There's a difference.
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Voting is making a choice, making a cogent decision. It's not the physical act of punching out a chad. If you're prevented from being informed, then you're prevented from making a valid decision and the physical act of voting becomes meaningless.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:09
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#23
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Voting is making a choice, making a cogent decision. It's not the physical act of punching out a chad.
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You're confusing "voting" and "voting in a western liberal democracy". It's quite conceivable that there could be limits on freedom of expression. Mainly because there are.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:18
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#24
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
asd;fj;aslkfja
Last edited by s|k; 5 Feb 2006 at 07:32.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:21
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#25
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Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The necessary foundation of democracy is people being free to vote. Merely because real world examples do not exist does not mean you can pretend words mean something they don't.
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You are now doing exactly the kind of nitpicking i expected. Very constructive regarding this topic on this forum. You would have a lot of "letters to the editor" to write if you would do the same in much more respected media.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:22
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#26
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
You are now doing exactly the kind of nitpicking i expected. Very constructive regarding this topic on this forum. You would have a lot of "letters to the editor" to write if you would do the same in much more respected media.
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Why don't you take your knob hobbing into a pm.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:24
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#27
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wasted
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Under the floorboards
Posts: 1,240
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Democracy can be defined as "majority rule". The majority could, conceivably, vote to restrict the freedom of speech (and other freedoms) of the minority (slavery in America, Jews in Nazi Germany). Democracy does not automatically guarantee any freedom; it tends to do so because most people don't really like oppression. This, however, is not a result of democracy, it's a result of the character of the voters.
Most of the good things about Western society result from the "liberal" half of liberal democracy; relatively few result from the "democracy" part.
__________________
“They were totally confused,” said the birdman, whose flying suit gives him a passing resemblance to Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story. “The authorities said that I was an unregistered aircraft and to fly, you need a licence. I told them, ‘No. To fly, you need wings’.”
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5 Feb 2006, 03:27
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#28
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Democracy can be defined as "majority rule". The majority could, conceivably, vote to restrict the freedom of speech (and other freedoms) of the minority (slavery in America, Jews in Nazi Germany). Democracy does not automatically guarantee any freedom; it tends to do so because most people don't really like oppression. This, however, is not a result of democracy, it's a result of the character of the voters.
Most of the good things about Western society result from the "liberal" half of liberal democracy; relatively few result from the "democracy" part.
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It's not really a majority rule if the vast majority of votes are represented in government as is the case in a parlimentary style system. Parties are given percentage of seats based on percentage of votes out of the total for that party.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:31
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#29
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wasted
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Under the floorboards
Posts: 1,240
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
How is that not majority rule? If the majority of people vote for a party, it forms the government and can (without any other safeguards existing such as individual rights) do whatever it likes regardless of what the minority thinks.
__________________
“They were totally confused,” said the birdman, whose flying suit gives him a passing resemblance to Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story. “The authorities said that I was an unregistered aircraft and to fly, you need a licence. I told them, ‘No. To fly, you need wings’.”
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5 Feb 2006, 03:33
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#30
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
There is a difference between what I would call democracy and what I would call majority-dictatorship.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:39
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#31
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
How is that not majority rule? If the majority of people vote for a party, it forms the government and can (without any other safeguards existing such as individual rights) do whatever it likes regardless of what the minority thinks.
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Because the other parties that were voted into seats by the minority have powers as well, but yes they aren't as influential as the majority parties.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:42
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#32
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wasted
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Under the floorboards
Posts: 1,240
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
There is a difference between what I would call democracy and what I would call majority-dictatorship.
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Democracy simply is majority rule. Lots of organisations have internal democracy - trade unions, for example. Some political parties have internal democracy. Even some businesses do.
Liberal democracy is about voting for candidates/parties to run a limited state (limited by individual rights). The difference between Western democracy and Islamic democracy is the limits on the state. Both are democratic, but our states are prevented from interfering in the lives of individuals in ways their states are not. Put another way, I don't think the oppressed individual cares whether his oppressor seized power in a coup or was voted in by a majority of his countrymen. It is the oppressive act that is wrong, not how the oppressor gained the power to inflict it.
Democracy can be a partial safeguard against oppression, because people will naturally be fearful of voting in an oppressive government. But when that oppression is clearly targetted against a specific minority, a majority may feel that it is safe to vote for the oppressor. In such circumstances, democracy can be a tool of oppression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Because the other parties that were voted into seats by the minority have powers as well, but yes they aren't as influential as the majority parties.
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What powers do minority parties have?
__________________
“They were totally confused,” said the birdman, whose flying suit gives him a passing resemblance to Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story. “The authorities said that I was an unregistered aircraft and to fly, you need a licence. I told them, ‘No. To fly, you need wings’.”
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5 Feb 2006, 03:43
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#33
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,332
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Also, obviously democracy is possible in western countries as that's the system employed now.
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I wasn't saying it's not possible, just that it has its ugly side; much like a Middle Eastern style democracy would have its ugly side too.
__________________
They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:53
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#34
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
I was speaking of a theorethical consept of democracy, not democracy as we know it. For instance what I call "the dicatorship of the proletariat" is majority-dicatorship or majority-democracy. It is that one class rule the others without constraint. At the same time my definition of liberal-democracy is minority-democracy or minority-dictatorship, becouse the bourgiousie rule over the other classes.
Point is, that democracy can be interpreted differently and looked upon from various angles.
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5 Feb 2006, 03:55
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#35
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
What powers do minority parties have?
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They can vote, they can draft legislation, they can do anything else any other member can as individuals.
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5 Feb 2006, 04:01
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#36
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
these are however rarely powers except in name. a minority party only has power when there is disharmony in the majority party. which, in the case of the "Vote for more imams" party, isn't going to be a major concern.
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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5 Feb 2006, 11:27
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#37
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: Fuss about Danish Drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
It's not really a majority rule if the vast majority of votes are represented in government as is the case in a parlimentary style system. Parties are given percentage of seats based on percentage of votes out of the total for that party.
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Ignoring that you've only referred to one of the kinds of parliamentary democracy, you're referring to a subset of democracy as a whole. The simplest kind is where everyone votes on everything, you're talking about a Representative Democracy.
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