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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 14:06   #101
nolezy
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
I'm not offended by images of people ****ing. It's also quite a natural human activity, and not something anyone really needs to be protected from imo. Thinking kids don't seek out this kind of stuff on their own is just naive and, quite frankly, irrelevant. No harm is done to anyone by showing images of people having sex.
I agree but that's not even a fight worth attempting to win (not that I actually think you were).
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 14:50   #102
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Multihunters screw up again.

Closed 10:6 planets while they had incoming fleets. Didnt recall the fleets and then reopened the planets before they land without informing the planets so they didnt have chance to move there fleets, Resulting in there round being over.

Ace, your team has failed.. If you are responsible, its time for you to step down. You've had 2+ rounds now to inact changes to the team and you havent done anything, we're still experiencing the same problems as previously.

Multihunters closing planets for trivial reasons.
Multihunters ruining peoples rounds who have been cleared of cheating.
Multihunters going on emo-trips.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 14:52   #103
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Ace, (...) [i]f you are responsible, its time for you to step down.
How would that improve the situation? This is not a rhetorical question.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 14:57   #104
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
I'm not offended by images of people ****ing. It's also quite a natural human activity, and not something anyone really needs to be protected from imo. Thinking kids don't seek out this kind of stuff on their own is just naive and, quite frankly, irrelevant. No harm is done to anyone by showing images of people having sex.
In all fairness, the use of pornographic pictures is clearly prohibited by the EULA so at least removing such a gal pic is actually correct.
From the EULA:
[...]Your Content shall not:
(c) be defamatory, obscene, pornographic or harmful to minors [...]

I think it´s quite common to prohibit pornographic pictures in online games, probably because they´d risk getting sued otherwise.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 15:08   #105
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
How would that improve the situation? This is not a rhetorical question.
As then we get a chance at someone else who will actually change the situation. Rather than if Ace remains as head MH.. then he will continue doing what he's been doing (nothing.).

I really dont get whats so hard, these are all simple things being complained about:
1. Fleet names should never be closed, those that do abuse the fleet name just once.. gets there fleet naming abilitys removed. If its for a trivial offensce like 'poof' then it doesnt really matter as they've only lost the ability to rename fleets.
2. Any closed planet which is still in doubt weither they are guilty or not, should have all incoming fleets recalled at eta 1. You cannot let someone's planet who may still be innocent to lose fleets either via not able to get defence or not able to move there ships. A compromise would be automatically setting a closed planets fleets to home base and set to run and hide so they dont lose fleets. Closed planets which are 100% guilty can continue with the current rules (or just use that compromise rule). The current system is ruining peoples rounds when the MH decides they are innocent after all, like 10:6.
3. NDA should be changed, that if the planet in question gives permission.. they are allowed to talk about the closure. If its a group of planets in question, it would require all planets to consent.
4. Stop the "You've breeched rules and need to see us in #multihunters' crap. Someone who's been caught abusing fleet names, just needs a mail saying what they've been done and there punishment.. they only need to come and see you if they feel it has been done in mistake.
5. Stop the 'you require an exception to have multiple accounts from the same IP crap'. If someone signs up with the same IP, send them a mail informing them that accounts from the same IP/household have certain rules due to people signing up multiple accounts and explaining what they can and cant do.
6. abusive planet and ruler names should never be a reason for closure. Simply rename the planet in the question to something neutral and then send them a mail (not warning them and telling them theyre going to be closed) saying that there planet and ruler name has been deemed offensive and has been renamed to something neutral. If you would like to choose a different name, please come to #multihunters and tell an operator what you would like the name to be (It will then be checked by the multihunter that the new name is not abusive and they rename it).
7. Most closures and warnings do not require the person to come into #multihunters and do not require an overly aggresive mail sent to them. They should have the detailed reason for closure and the punishment in the mail and they only need to come into #multihunters if they wish to appeal or feel its been done in mistake.

Basically, stop the crap and the stop ego-trips. It appears Ace hasnt changed a thing since Fiery stepped down, so he's useless as a head MH as he isnt willing to fix anything or change the rules or change the way MH's work.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 15:23   #106
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
[It appears Ace hasnt changed a thing since Fiery stepped down, so he's useless as a head MH as he isnt willing to fix anything or change the rules or change the way MH's work.
This is not necessarily true. Making changes that enjoy mass support is easy. I do not see how anyone could be opposed to the changes you suggested. If they have that (as I think they do), anyone can make them.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 15:27   #107
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Sensible stuff.
Most of your points make sense, except #2.

You're saying a gal can abuse a bug when they get incomings, then have all fleets attacking them recalled after causing a 24 downtime?

Slightly worried if you can't see any problem with that.

[Edit: I should pay more attention. Yeah, your compromise rule sounds fair.]
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 15:55   #108
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This is not necessarily true. Making changes that enjoy mass support is easy. I do not see how anyone could be opposed to the changes you suggested. If they have that (as I think they do), anyone can make them.
Then why havent any of these changes been made? Why do we keep going over the same crappy Planet/Ruler/Fleet name rules? and why are we still getting multihunters ruining innocent planets/galaxys rounds?

Changing the rules to make them better, gets mass support as they're making the rules better which is what the head MH should be doing.

I mean, i came up with those rule changes instantly... How come the MH havent came up with any of them or implemented them in the past 10+ rounds where this has been causing a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
Most of your points make sense, except #2.

You're saying a gal can abuse a bug when they get incomings, then have all fleets attacking them recalled after causing a 24 downtime?

Slightly worried if you can't see any problem with that.

[Edit: I should pay more attention. Yeah, your compromise rule sounds fair.]
Its at eta 1 and only when the planet is still in doubt weither they cheated or not. If they abused a bug and caused 24hour downtime.. then the MH have 24hours to decide weither they are guilty or not. It would also be an isolated case, as i doubt people have gamechanging/downtime causing bugs ready to use when they get incs and note that abusing them, does result in 24hour downtime (and in fact, when rollbacks used to be auto-fleet recall, we never once saw people abusing bugs to cause a rollback when there alliance was under heavy attack).
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 15:56   #109
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

One of the good old classic games in PA is the call for admins/multihunters heads. However, who would want to take over? Light, I challenge you to find 3-4 people willing to sign an NDA and be multihunters for this game, and then have them approved for the job
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 16:30   #110
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Light View Post

I really dont get whats so hard, these are all simple things being complained about:
...
For once in my life I have to agree with Light. Those things should indeed be implemented.

Doubt they will though, otherwise the idiotic inhabitants of #multihunters would have no reason to ego-trip and close someone because of their "attitude".

Also (I wont post the pm, I consider it isn't fair to post it in public though I have pasted it in #ascendancy):

Session Start: Sat Apr 17 13:39:40 2010
Session Ident: #multihunters
*:::: Now in #multihunters
————————————————————————————————————————————
*• Topic: http://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=exceptions | If there is no response please be patient.
*• By: Spritfire on Fri Oct 30 01:45:58 2009
—————————————————————————————————
-
*(ricoshay) regarding 3 10 galname/banner
*(ricoshay) hi.
*(+ butter ) hey
*(ricoshay) who can i talk to?
*(+ butter ) yes
*(+ butter ) me
*(+ butter ) what would u like to say?
*(ricoshay) ok, reasoning for changing the galname and banner?
*(ricoshay) it wasn't porn
*(ricoshay) it was racist
*(ricoshay) it wasnt innuendo
*(ricoshay) wasnt racist even
*(+ butter ) what would u say it was?
*(ricoshay) funny?
*(+ butter ) what makes it funny?
*(ricoshay) the tiger woods scandal obviously
*(+ butter ) please explain how that makes this funny
*(+ butter ) help me here
*(ricoshay) and the relationship between the nike punchline [just do it!] and [just did her!]
*(ricoshay) heh
*(+ butter ) and
*(+ butter ) u just told me there was no innuendo didnt u?
*(ricoshay) lol
*(ricoshay) you call that offensive i suppose?
*(+ butter ) guess my point is made also
*(+ butter ) i find it demeaning to women actually
*(+ butter ) and it is a sexual reference
*(+ butter ) u just admitted that urself
*(ricoshay) well, now that you put it that way
*(+ butter )
*(ricoshay) i can only say that you, sir, are a just challenged
*(+ butter ) well u sir
*(ricoshay) remove the "a" there
*(+ butter ) need to realise not all on irc are male
*(ricoshay) and a lobotomy wouldn't make you any less "smart" than you are right now
*(+ butter ) and i suggest u refrain from making any comments about a persons intellectual ability
*(ricoshay) i'm not making any comment an ability, i'm making comments about the lack of it
*(ricoshay) now, i think ace was the head MH
*(ricoshay) i'll wait for him to come around
*:::: Kicks: you were kicked from #multihunters by P : [ (butter) try mailing him i dont wish to share chan with such nastiness ]
*:::: Attempting to rejoin #multihunters...
*[ø] ChanMode: P sets mode [+b] *!*@ricoshay.users.netgamers.org
*:::: [Banned]: ricoshay
*:::: Kicks: you were kicked from #multihunters by P : [ (Judge) No Reason ]
Session Close: Sat Apr 17 15:17:31 2010
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 16:41   #111
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
One of the good old classic games in PA is the call for admins/multihunters heads. However, who would want to take over? Light, I challenge you to find 3-4 people willing to sign an NDA and be multihunters for this game, and then have them approved for the job
I'd do it but it'd be too easy to call bias on me and i doubt the community would want me in a position like that

but i'd be happy to go through the rules and change them as required along with changing the automated mails which the MH's would then follow

Infact, is there a full copy of the PA rules and MH procedures on each infringement anywhere?
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 16:43   #112
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Changing mutlihunters might be hard, but there needs to be a way to get them to stop acting like a bunch of little babies.

Here is my banner that they deleted. Now you can all still enjoy it as much as I do. See... it's ironic.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_5pNUbz_R...00/images5.jpg
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 17:04   #113
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

the multihunters have always had problems.. because let's face it, no one wants to do it. the few that do get abused by the players so it's no wonder they turn into big jerks themselves. i mean it sounds like insulting butter has become a new pa pastime. would you want to put up with that? that being said, the mh's also have to realize that they WILL get abused and learn to get over it. they're supposed to be totally unbiased. but i think it's hypocritical to say that they're supposed to be unbiased and fair, and then insult the crap out of them, and then whine when you get banned, or closed.

though i don't think rico said anything in the above link that deserves a ban, it looks more of a case of butter being fed up with the abuse. you know there's a quote that kind of fits this situation. if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 17:13   #114
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

To be fair, as someone who has had dealings with Butter back when she was a alliance HC, she wasn't the easiest person to deal with back then either.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 17:18   #115
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

i've never had dealings with butter so i wouldn't know. but if you're a mh.. no actually let me broaden this.. if you're any part of pateam, you've got to suck it up and expect to get abuse. though there is obviously a line to how much abuse you should take, a little bit (like rico's example) is not hard to ignore. if you cant handle that tiny bit of abuse, you shouldn't be in that position.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 18:11   #116
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Aryn View Post
i've never had dealings with butter so i wouldn't know. but if you're a mh.. no actually let me broaden this.. if you're any part of pateam, you've got to suck it up and expect to get abuse. though there is obviously a line to how much abuse you should take, a little bit (like rico's example) is not hard to ignore. if you cant handle that tiny bit of abuse, you shouldn't be in that position.
and if the abuse does go past the point you're willing to accept, then you should simply direct the player to wait for another person. Not kick them out of the channel and if i see it correctly? Judge banned him instead of stepping in and talking to him instead of Butter.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 18:15   #117
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Multihunters screw up again.

Closed 10:6 planets while they had incoming fleets. Didnt recall the fleets and then reopened the planets before they land without informing the planets so they didnt have chance to move there fleets, Resulting in there round being over.

Ace, your team has failed.. If you are responsible, its time for you to step down. You've had 2+ rounds now to inact changes to the team and you havent done anything, we're still experiencing the same problems as previously.

Multihunters closing planets for trivial reasons.
Multihunters ruining peoples rounds who have been cleared of cheating.
Multihunters going on emo-trips.
Did you even scan the planets ?
Before you make remarks like :
Closed 10:6 planets while they had incoming fleets. Didnt recall the fleets and then reopened the planets before they land without informing the planets so they didnt have chance to move there fleets, Resulting in there round being over.
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 18:26   #118
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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and if the abuse does go past the point you're willing to accept, then you should simply direct the player to wait for another person. Not kick them out of the channel and if i see it correctly? Judge banned him instead of stepping in and talking to him instead of Butter.
that was kinda the point i was trying to make
also it from that log it looks like judge has an autoban set up (i could be wrong)
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Unread 23 Jun 2010, 19:21   #119
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Ace View Post
The banner case is a team decission and if you dont believe that I cant help that.
Quote:
*(+ butter ) guess my point is made also
*(+ butter ) i find it demeaning to women actually
Seriously.

Can you draw an official line on whether the banner was deleted on a team decision calling it "demeaning to women"? I mean, it's good to communicate these kinds of decisions so players in the future know better what they can and can not do. What a load of garbage heh. Wonder why it wasn't demeaning to men.
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Unread 24 Jun 2010, 10:38   #120
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Light's suggestions in this thread actually make sense. I support the implementation of them!
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Unread 24 Jun 2010, 14:58   #121
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Customer service wise, if Butter and Ace ran a hotel it would most definitely be called 'Fawlty Towers'.


Fully support Lights simple yet effective changes.
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Unread 24 Jun 2010, 15:06   #122
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

it would be fun to stay in fawlty towers man, its a shame the same cant be said for the mh team...
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Unread 24 Jun 2010, 15:06   #123
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Customer service wise, if Butter and Ace ran a hotel it would most definitely be called 'Fawlty Towers'.
Shouldn't have left Judge out of it, he might feel neglected.
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Unread 24 Jun 2010, 22:59   #124
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...&postcount=105

Light and common sense prevails, some mighty fine ideas you have there missus
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Unread 25 Jun 2010, 01:44   #125
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Shouldn't have left Judge out of it, he might feel neglected.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 08:14   #126
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
As then we get a chance at someone else who will actually change the situation. Rather than if Ace remains as head MH.. then he will continue doing what he's been doing (nothing.).

I really dont get whats so hard, these are all simple things being complained about:
1. Fleet names should never be closed, those that do abuse the fleet name just once.. gets there fleet naming abilitys removed. If its for a trivial offensce like 'poof' then it doesnt really matter as they've only lost the ability to rename fleets.
2. Any closed planet which is still in doubt weither they are guilty or not, should have all incoming fleets recalled at eta 1. You cannot let someone's planet who may still be innocent to lose fleets either via not able to get defence or not able to move there ships. A compromise would be automatically setting a closed planets fleets to home base and set to run and hide so they dont lose fleets. Closed planets which are 100% guilty can continue with the current rules (or just use that compromise rule). The current system is ruining peoples rounds when the MH decides they are innocent after all, like 10:6.
3. NDA should be changed, that if the planet in question gives permission.. they are allowed to talk about the closure. If its a group of planets in question, it would require all planets to consent.
4. Stop the "You've breeched rules and need to see us in #multihunters' crap. Someone who's been caught abusing fleet names, just needs a mail saying what they've been done and there punishment.. they only need to come and see you if they feel it has been done in mistake.
5. Stop the 'you require an exception to have multiple accounts from the same IP crap'. If someone signs up with the same IP, send them a mail informing them that accounts from the same IP/household have certain rules due to people signing up multiple accounts and explaining what they can and cant do.
6. abusive planet and ruler names should never be a reason for closure. Simply rename the planet in the question to something neutral and then send them a mail (not warning them and telling them theyre going to be closed) saying that there planet and ruler name has been deemed offensive and has been renamed to something neutral. If you would like to choose a different name, please come to #multihunters and tell an operator what you would like the name to be (It will then be checked by the multihunter that the new name is not abusive and they rename it).
7. Most closures and warnings do not require the person to come into #multihunters and do not require an overly aggresive mail sent to them. They should have the detailed reason for closure and the punishment in the mail and they only need to come into #multihunters if they wish to appeal or feel its been done in mistake.

Basically, stop the crap and the stop ego-trips. It appears Ace hasnt changed a thing since Fiery stepped down, so he's useless as a head MH as he isnt willing to fix anything or change the rules or change the way MH's work.

Dont know why my origonal post got deleted btw, as it wasnt a personal attack on somone was just the truth. But anyway... keeping to this subject wanted to answer a few of these points of yours.


1) I agree a fleet name such as that shouldnt of been closed. However, when you have somtimes people on purpose keep putting up offencive fleet names after they have been warned out of protest/to be anoying then yes they need to be punished and somtimes the only way to do that is to close them im afraid. (gets them to the MH channel faster then anything you have ever seen)
2) Actually, it used to (when a planet was closed) recall all fleets i beleive unless i am mistaken. This caused a few complaints regarding people who were attacking these planets (ie why should they suffer for a planet cheating? If they had a clear land, a MH closed the planet for blatent farming elsewhere and then of course all fleets get recalled on closure the people who were bound to land on this said planet were in uproar (and to be honest they have a valid point) so... it swings both ways.
3) That will never work. Honestly.. how many times (ive argued this for years..) do you get a cheat hold his hands up to his whole allie after been caught and say 'sorry guys.. i cheated ill own up and i got caught' course you dont. You get the old fashioned 'omg they have closed me for nothing im inocent and im going to quit' crap that we all get so used too. Why should a MH have to justify to the whole community (who cant even decide on simple decisions like private gals/public gals) why he/she has closed this person. It just wouldnt work.
4) Well why would you wish to stop this? If they have breached the rules, then surely they need to go see somone to discuss it? Same as if you are summoned to a court date in real life for doing somthing illegal. You dont just stay away and think 'yes ok..' it just doesnt work that way. As i mentioned in my point 1 people who are warned just ignore the warning. And keep abusing the system. Once their closed and come running to the mhs channel they then say stuff like 'oh i didnt see a warning' the usal crap. Once the community/abusers change their ways... then the MHs can change theirs.
5) Well in my time we used too. We used to warn anyone who was on the same ip/using proxies. And then if we didnt hear of them we would close them after say 24 hours. Why is it the MHs responsability to chace people who want to play the game using proxies or on the same ip? Theres 2k+ players? Come on light... surely it isnt difficult to send in a mail to 1:1 or come to the MH channel and ask for an exception. (pretty sure this can be done via support ticket too unless thats changed?) so theres just no excuse for been that lazy.
6) This i actually do agree with you. As thats what we used to do. I would warn them and rename their planet to somthing along the lines of 'Pink bunnies of la la land' and informed them to come see me about changing it to a proper name. Myself and Squishy used to have quite amusing fun doing that.
7) Your wrong. A player SHOULD come to the mhs channel to discuss their closure. Police dont arrest you via email. If they are cauht for violating a rule then they need to come see the MH (or MH's) and speak to the relevent person. I do agree latley the consistancy of the MHs has been a problem (ie all of them seem to hunt differently and procedures are not followed) but still.. its been like this for rounds. Person gets closed, they come to the channel, the MH discusses to them in pm the details as to why they were closed (quoting his/her reaserch) said person answers the accusations one by one and if the MH doesnt see they are answering them/justifying themselves correctly then they remain closed and are given the option to appeal to the highest authority. Thats how its always been and sorry but thats how it must remain.



Your forgetting these MHs do this for free. They dont get payed or any priase for doing this job other then blatent abuse. (shown in this thread) Sure new MHs make mistakes.. but unless they are trained on the values/how to hunt and procedures then there not going to hunt right in the first place and i think the current leaders of the MH team havent been consistant for rounds (ive made that known in several posts to be honest... especially when they closed Willzzz a fair few rounds ago with the reason 'your a support planet end off' crap.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 10:52   #127
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
1) I agree a fleet name such as that shouldnt of been closed. However, when you have somtimes people on purpose keep putting up offencive fleet names after they have been warned out of protest/to be anoying then yes they need to be punished and somtimes the only way to do that is to close them im afraid. (gets them to the MH channel faster then anything you have ever seen)
Thats why there needs to be an option for Multihunters to remove the ability for someone to rename fleets. Then they cant 'keep' doing it, you do it once, you get your ability removed.

Quote:
2) Actually, it used to (when a planet was closed) recall all fleets i beleive unless i am mistaken. This caused a few complaints regarding people who were attacking these planets (ie why should they suffer for a planet cheating? If they had a clear land, a MH closed the planet for blatent farming elsewhere and then of course all fleets get recalled on closure the people who were bound to land on this said planet were in uproar (and to be honest they have a valid point) so... it swings both ways.
If the planet is cheating through one way or another then the roids they've gained are likely to be due from that cheating (I cant really see any other ways unless we include the trivial crap like closed for fleet name abuse).

If it is a major problem, then why dont MH's just wait 3-4 hours until the 'clear lands' have landed before closing?

Quote:
3) That will never work. Honestly.. how many times (ive argued this for years..) do you get a cheat hold his hands up to his whole allie after been caught and say 'sorry guys.. i cheated ill own up and i got caught' course you dont. You get the old fashioned 'omg they have closed me for nothing im inocent and im going to quit' crap that we all get so used too. Why should a MH have to justify to the whole community (who cant even decide on simple decisions like private gals/public gals) why he/she has closed this person. It just wouldnt work.
Its not about the person in question, its about the people he's talking to. At the moment we get a one sided discussion on every closure and it makes out the MH's to be extremly stupid and incompitent, this would allow the MH's to put out there side.

MH have to justify to the whole community why he/she closed a person as they're responsible for the community and the community is the 'check' that the MH's are actually doing there job properly and not abusing the position.

Quote:
4) Well why would you wish to stop this? If they have breached the rules, then surely they need to go see somone to discuss it? Same as if you are summoned to a court date in real life for doing somthing illegal. You dont just stay away and think 'yes ok..' it just doesnt work that way. As i mentioned in my point 1 people who are warned just ignore the warning. And keep abusing the system. Once their closed and come running to the mhs channel they then say stuff like 'oh i didnt see a warning' the usal crap. Once the community/abusers change their ways... then the MHs can change theirs.
Not really, as this isnt court.. If they've got the mail, then they've been found guilty.. They can appeal by going into the MH chan if they wish, or they can accept that they did wrong and accept the punishment.
People shouldnt have to come on IRC and alot of new players dont even understand IRC, 'i didnt see a warning' is obviously not an excuse.

Quote:
5) Well in my time we used too. We used to warn anyone who was on the same ip/using proxies. And then if we didnt hear of them we would close them after say 24 hours. Why is it the MHs responsability to chace people who want to play the game using proxies or on the same ip? Theres 2k+ players? Come on light... surely it isnt difficult to send in a mail to 1:1 or come to the MH channel and ask for an exception. (pretty sure this can be done via support ticket too unless thats changed?) so theres just no excuse for been that lazy.
I didnt say its the MH's responsibility to chace people? The MH's have ALREADY found the people using the same IP's and proxies, they dont need to do anything else except send a different mail than they are already using.

What the hell is the exception system? I dont understand it? I could signup a second account now and get an exception saying its my housemate im trying to get into the game. How the hell do they know? Whats the point of it?

You can simply send them a mail saying that people with 2+ accounts from the same household are subject to different rules and explain the rules.

Quote:
6) This i actually do agree with you. As thats what we used to do. I would warn them and rename their planet to somthing along the lines of 'Pink bunnies of la la land' and informed them to come see me about changing it to a proper name. Myself and Squishy used to have quite amusing fun doing that.
good good.

Quote:
7) Your wrong. A player SHOULD come to the mhs channel to discuss their closure. Police dont arrest you via email. If they are cauht for violating a rule then they need to come see the MH (or MH's) and speak to the relevent person. I do agree latley the consistancy of the MHs has been a problem (ie all of them seem to hunt differently and procedures are not followed) but still.. its been like this for rounds. Person gets closed, they come to the channel, the MH discusses to them in pm the details as to why they were closed (quoting his/her reaserch) said person answers the accusations one by one and if the MH doesnt see they are answering them/justifying themselves correctly then they remain closed and are given the option to appeal to the highest authority. Thats how its always been and sorry but thats how it must remain.
Im not on about closures, as obviously they would have to come to MH's for that otherwise they couldnt get reopened. Im on about things people are warned for, they dont need to come into the channel.. the Mail can say what they've been caught doing and the punishment for it (i.e. youve been using abusive fleet names, you have now lost the ability to rename your fleets for the remainder of this round.. If you feel this is in error, you can contact us at MH channel).

You can appeal if you wish but you dont need to come into the channel and the mail does not make out that you NEED to come to the channel asap.


Quote:
Your forgetting these MHs do this for free. They dont get payed or any priase for doing this job other then blatent abuse. (shown in this thread) Sure new MHs make mistakes.. but unless they are trained on the values/how to hunt and procedures then there not going to hunt right in the first place and i think the current leaders of the MH team havent been consistant for rounds (ive made that known in several posts to be honest... especially when they closed Willzzz a fair few rounds ago with the reason 'your a support planet end off' crap.
Someone doing it for free, is not an excuse for being crap, inconsistant or biased.

A Head MH has obviously been doing it for awhile and knows the problems of the system and the rules, they should be reviewing the rules as often as possible (or whenever a new case comes up which questions the validity or enforcement of a rule) and try to work out a way to change the rules for the better.

Instead, MH's dont change anything.. for the past 10+ rounds they've carried on as usual and continue closing people for fleet names, sending very 'abusive' mails (seen the warning mails? if a new player got one of them, it makes it out like the admins dont want them to play and to f*ck off and just for a slightly offensive fleet or planet name?), banning people from the MH chan, and continuing to enforce idiotic rules.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 11:12   #128
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
7) Your wrong. A player SHOULD come to the mhs channel to discuss their closure. Police dont arrest you via email.
(Just nitpicking this point)

Funnily enough, your own analogy proves you wrong. The police collect more money through mail than from actually arresting people. This is what Light is suggesting; that people who are 'speeding' don't have to come all the way to the police station, they simply have to pay the fine (removal of fleetnames for example) and be on their way.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 11:28   #129
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
They dont get payed or any priase for doing this job other then blatent abuse. (shown in this thread) Sure new MHs make mistakes..


I think the general problem with the public perception on multihunters isn't that they make mistakes. They don't get flamed and grilled for making mistakes. I'm fairly certain every human makes mistakes every now and then, but what makes the difference between an arrogant person and a person committed to his task for less self-centric reasons is admittance.

Multihunters generally come out as a very, very arrogant bunch of people because a lot of them, in their grips of power, look down on their customers, and if they do make a mistake, you'll never see one go "Okay, we're sorry, we might have made a bad judgement call - we'll try work on our procedures to prevent this from happening again". Instead, you'll come up with more or less made up stuff that seems somehow coherent with an inconsistent set of garbage called rules "well I think it insults women" (ie. "I deleted it because it ticked me bad vibes").

If the multihunters were easier to approach, harder to get looked down by, and appeared more "humane" you might find you'd be a lot less prone to flamage. The arrogant "I'm always right, I have the power to do what I want with your account" -type of a multihunter is extremely provocative.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 11:49   #130
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Dont know why my origonal post got deleted btw, as it wasnt a personal attack on somone was just the truth. But anyway... keeping to this subject wanted to answer a few of these points of yours.
Some retard is moderating PD. I don't know who.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
1) I agree a fleet name such as that shouldnt of been closed. However, when you have somtimes people on purpose keep putting up offencive fleet names after they have been warned out of protest/to be anoying then yes they need to be punished and somtimes the only way to do that is to close them im afraid. (gets them to the MH channel faster then anything you have ever seen)
What the **** is this. They need to be punished for defying the multihunters? That's ****ing bullshit. Punish people for breaking the rules, not for disrespecting your authority. Jesus ****ing christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Your forgetting these MHs do this for free. They dont get payed or any priase for doing this job other then blatent abuse. (shown in this thread) Sure new MHs make mistakes.. but unless they are trained on the values/how to hunt and procedures then there not going to hunt right in the first place and i think the current leaders of the MH team havent been consistant for rounds (ive made that known in several posts to be honest... especially when they closed Willzzz a fair few rounds ago with the reason 'your a support planet end off' crap.
Doing someting for free is not an excuse for doing something badly. If you don't want to do it well, don't do it at all.

That said, yes, it is a thankless job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
If the multihunters were easier to approach, harder to get looked down by, and appeared more "humane" you might find you'd be a lot less prone to flamage. The arrogant "I'm always right, I have the power to do what I want with your account" -type of a multihunter is extremely provocative.
As Light also touched on, I think this is at least partly because the multihunters cannot discuss cases in public. This prevents them from explaining why someone is guilty or not, which reduces them to the stubborn "he's really guilty, I don't care if you believe me".
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 11:55   #131
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

1st thing: I am deeply touched by Light's support for the 10:6 case. This seems to be a new millenium

2nd: Multihunters are doing despotic decisions. They couldnt even name the rule 10:6 members have broken. All they did was kicking me out of channel.
And the fact that there is no way to call for an objective investigation as Ace is judge, executioner, advocate of the despots and head of multihunters at the same time.

So you are basically screwed if he decides you did wrong. There is no way to convince him back. You can't even demand a simple clarification on the case by asking him which rule we actually broke. He is a despot and abusing his powers there. seriously i lost all respect for such a tard.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 12:36   #132
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Thats why there needs to be an option for Multihunters to remove the ability for someone to rename fleets. Then they cant 'keep' doing it, you do it once, you get your ability removed. .
Why does it need to be removed? If the members abuse it therefore they are closed. Why should an option be invented just becuase idiots cant be trusted to not abuse it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its not about the person in question, its about the people he's talking to. At the moment we get a one sided discussion on every closure and it makes out the MH's to be extremly stupid and incompitent, this would allow the MH's to put out there side..

MH have to justify to the whole community why he/she closed a person as they're responsible for the community and the community is the 'check' that the MH's are actually doing there job properly and not abusing the position...

Im sorry? You know the people who are closed (or at least know off them) Shouldnt take a rocket scientist to realize half the time they are abusing the system and what they claim of the MHs are false. Why should a MH have to justify to the world what he/she does? The case is between them and the person concerned. Its your choice if you wish to beleive the people who were closed, doesnt mean they are telling the truth (9 out of 10 times they are not... just some people choose to blatently beleive them for some strange reason) They are responsible for the community? No they are responsible to police the community, and they have given you the rules and told you what will happen if you breach them. Thats all they have to do. As i said above if you choose to beleive somone spouting rubbish/abuse about the MHs thats your choice, doesnt mean they have to reveal the whole case in public.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Not really, as this isnt court.. If they've got the mail, then they've been found guilty.. They can appeal by going into the MH chan if they wish, or they can accept that they did wrong and accept the punishment.
People shouldnt have to come on IRC and alot of new players dont even understand IRC, 'i didnt see a warning' is obviously not an excuse.
I used the court as an example. Maybe i should of used a better one. Lets say you are caught speeding, some occasions you are maybe let off with a warning, other times your of course given a ticket etc. In the example of a MH they are giving you a warning (maybe 2 depending on how they work these days) if people choose to ignore these warnings and carry on acting against the rules what are the MHs supposed to do? keep sending out warning emails and ignoring them breaking the rules? Of course they should be forced to come onto irc and discuss issues. As i said above which i think even Patrik failed to understand, in real life if you are caught doing somthing illigal your of course arrested. Then on a later date have to appear in court. It isnt done via bluddy email or mail. Thats just life.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
I didnt say its the MH's responsibility to chace people? The MH's have ALREADY found the people using the same IP's and proxies, they dont need to do anything else except send a different mail than they are already using.

What the hell is the exception system? I dont understand it? I could signup a second account now and get an exception saying its my housemate im trying to get into the game. How the hell do they know? Whats the point of it?

You can simply send them a mail saying that people with 2+ accounts from the same household are subject to different rules and explain the rules.
You asked them in thoery to write somthing more 'polite' and let them know that they cant play on the same ip etc. My point is why should they? Its blatently there in the rules when you signup to the game. If you tick that box agreeing to the termans and conditions then thats therefore YOUR FAULT and therefore YOUR RESPONSABILITY to inform a MH of playing on the same ip/proxy as another player. The MHs send out a warning if you dont this. If then still the member doesnt contact a MH (as i said above how hard is it to send in a support ticket stating you need an exception?) then your closed. Still find it hard to beleive people cant either read the rules or do somthing as basic as that (or as to why people are still arguing the point mhs should be more polite)

As far as your exception rule goes sure.. they cant prove that your playing 2 accounts. Ive said this for rounds, however, it does stop you from interacting both accounts (ie crashing one into another to help it) so yes your able to play 2 accounts in thoery (which i agree is stupid) but at least you cant use one to help the other. (im not defending the exception rule btw i know its completley flawed before somone starts posting again regarding my statement then)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Im not on about closures, as obviously they would have to come to MH's for that otherwise they couldnt get reopened. Im on about things people are warned for, they dont need to come into the channel.. the Mail can say what they've been caught doing and the punishment for it (i.e. youve been using abusive fleet names, you have now lost the ability to rename your fleets for the remainder of this round.. If you feel this is in error, you can contact us at MH channel).

You can appeal if you wish but you dont need to come into the channel and the mail does not make out that you NEED to come to the channel asap.

The point here is light, your living in a dream world. 9 out of 10 times if you warn somone for lets say an abusive email or fleet name (this brings me to the post MZ made about mine) The player you have warned doesnt think 'oh gosh... ive been warned for an abusive fleet name' (it tells you WHY you were warned in the mails if people bother to read them) 'i better stop and think about what i name my fleets now' course they dont... instead they name them to somthing else or of course come onto these forums and moan about the MHs. So therefore after a few warnings they are closed. And after the closure they come into the channel claiming to have never saw these warnings (which of course we all know is a complete lie)

My point is here i know your trying to justify the system maybe to new players who dont maybe use irc often etc. But until the community of older players stop abusing the system then the Mhs cant change the way they act/think (as i stated in my first long post) Plus, if i was warned by a MH and got such a mail as 'you have been warned for abusive language' etc i would want to know why.... dunno about you but id be the first one in the MH channel demanding why. So dont understand why no one else would want to know either...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Someone doing it for free, is not an excuse for being crap, inconsistant or biased.

A Head MH has obviously been doing it for awhile and knows the problems of the system and the rules, they should be reviewing the rules as often as possible (or whenever a new case comes up which questions the validity or enforcement of a rule) and try to work out a way to change the rules for the better.

Instead, MH's dont change anything.. for the past 10+ rounds they've carried on as usual and continue closing people for fleet names, sending very 'abusive' mails (seen the warning mails? if a new player got one of them, it makes it out like the admins dont want them to play and to f*ck off and just for a slightly offensive fleet or planet name?), banning people from the MH chan, and continuing to enforce idiotic rules.

How do you know what they are doing is crap and inconsistant? As you said you have no knoweldge of the cases they deal with other then a rambling of somone whos been caught. So bassicaly your basing your apinions on what? somone's say so? Ive been a MH, ive also been a MH manager and had to make decisions on the spot which one side disliked and another liked. You will NEVER win over the whole community, and becuase of that one side claims your biased to another which isnt the case.

Your job is to enforce the rules and punish the people who choose to constantly every round try and find a loophole or a way around the rules. (ie cheat) You stand here demanding the MHs actually for example instead of closing people for abusive fleetnames/planet names they change them and warn them... are you aware the Mhs actually do this already?

This is my point, instead of trying to dictate the MH manager makes changes, why not try and find out via just asking a MH the rules and regulations which they actually enforce already and YOU WILL SEE they probably do most of what your sugesting already on these forums its just narrow minded people choose to beleive the ramblings of people been punished then having faith in the guys who have given up their own spare time for the game they love to try and improve it for honest players. No they are not perfect, but as kargool said they are trying.. and it isnt just Ace atm. People didnt agree with how Spinner used to close people, nor phil, nor xontas, nor myself, nor cin... you WILL NEVER please everyone.



QUOTE=Patrikc;3194863]
Funnily enough, your own analogy proves you wrong. The police collect more money through mail than from actually arresting people. This is what Light is suggesting; that people who are 'speeding' don't have to come all the way to the police station, they simply have to pay the fine (removal of fleetnames for example) and be on their way.[/quote]

Pardon? Was we discussing money? We were discussing how you catch somone whos breaking the law and bring them to justice. Dunno about you but if i got a letter through the door claiming i had to go to the police station as i had just murdered somone im not going to take that to seriously. On the other hand if i had the swat team banging down my door... well you get my point.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post


What the **** is this. They need to be punished for defying the multihunters? That's ****ing bullshit. Punish people for breaking the rules, not for disrespecting your authority. Jesus ****ing christ.
.
Think you have completley missunderstood what i said. If i warned you twice for abusive fleet names and you chose to keep doing it (ie breaking the rules futher) then i am forced to close you. That has nothing to do with me boosting my own ego.. thats punishing you for breaking the rules over and over again and choosing to ignore the 2-3 mails of warnings given to you. Unless you expect me to just keep sending out mail after mail after mail only to see you still constantly abusing the system
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 12:53   #133
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Nobody ****ing cares about fleetnames. If you use inappropriate fleetnames you should get them changed and a warning. If you do it again you should have your ability to choose fleetnames removed. There should be relatively clear guidelines on what inappropriate fleetnames actually are. There should be no obligation to spend part of your day being told off for having a weird sense of humour that you express in an online spreadsheet. This is precisely the sort of faggotry that makes people hate pateam and multihunters. Do your ****ing job, catch people who are cheating.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 13:56   #134
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Do your ****ing job, catch people who are cheating.
This is the most constructive post about the role of MHs I've read in a long time.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 14:08   #135
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Why does it need to be removed? If the members abuse it therefore they are closed. Why should an option be invented just becuase idiots cant be trusted to not abuse it?
So, PA Team is for closing paying customers for doing an offensive fleet name (which some of them arnt that offensive and just black humour).

I dont care if someone's abused there fleet renaming priviledges, if they do.. they should get those priviledges removed, not there account removed. You seem to be living in a fantasy world where PA has more than enough players and they can close whoever they want and it doesnt have an effect. You also seem to say in previous post that the MH get abuse? why do you think they get abuse due to fleetname closures? cuz its stupid and the MH is stupid for doing it.



Quote:
Im sorry? You know the people who are closed (or at least know off them) Shouldnt take a rocket scientist to realize half the time they are abusing the system and what they claim of the MHs are false. Why should a MH have to justify to the world what he/she does? The case is between them and the person concerned. Its your choice if you wish to beleive the people who were closed, doesnt mean they are telling the truth (9 out of 10 times they are not... just some people choose to blatently beleive them for some strange reason) They are responsible for the community? No they are responsible to police the community, and they have given you the rules and told you what will happen if you breach them. Thats all they have to do. As i said above if you choose to beleive somone spouting rubbish/abuse about the MHs thats your choice, doesnt mean they have to reveal the whole case in public.
As if the MH does not justify it to the community, the community thinks the MH are being stupid or biased and the cycle of the community hating the PA Team/MH team continues to get worse and worse. The community at this point in time, has near zero confidence in the MH team, theres clearly something wrong with the current system weither you feel it or not.

Quote:
I used the court as an example. Maybe i should of used a better one. Lets say you are caught speeding, some occasions you are maybe let off with a warning, other times your of course given a ticket etc. In the example of a MH they are giving you a warning (maybe 2 depending on how they work these days) if people choose to ignore these warnings and carry on acting against the rules what are the MHs supposed to do? keep sending out warning emails and ignoring them breaking the rules? Of course they should be forced to come onto irc and discuss issues. As i said above which i think even Patrik failed to understand, in real life if you are caught doing somthing illigal your of course arrested. Then on a later date have to appear in court. It isnt done via bluddy email or mail. Thats just life.
No, they're meant to remove the priviledges you've been abusing. If you keep speeding, you get your licence removed. If you get caught abusing fleet names, you should have the fleet naming privilede removed.

Why does someone come on IRC and explain there case for an abusive mail?
Person: Hi, i got a mail saying abusive fleet name
MH: Well, you renamed your fleet name to "X" which is clearly offensive
Person: Yeah its offensive, so why am i here?
MH: To explain yourself!
Person: i renamed my fleet to that, as i thought it'd be funny
MH: I dont find it funny.
Person: Humour is subjective.
MH: but its my humour that counts and i dont find it funny just offensive.
Person: ok, so whats going to happen
MH: you got a warning like the mail said
Person: Do why did i have to come here
MH: To tell you i found your joke not funny.
Person: ok, good to know! see you later!

How many times does someone get caught using an offensive name? do they actually convince the MH that it isnt offensive? How many times has someone done an offensive fleet name and the MH decided they made a mistake and allow it?

Why does someone have to defend themselves, when there's nothing to defend. The MH's have made there decision, thats why you've already got the warning! There is absolutly no reason to be forced to come online on IRC unless YOU want to appeal the decision.

Quote:
You asked them in thoery to write somthing more 'polite' and let them know that they cant play on the same ip etc. My point is why should they? Its blatently there in the rules when you signup to the game. If you tick that box agreeing to the termans and conditions then thats therefore YOUR FAULT and therefore YOUR RESPONSABILITY to inform a MH of playing on the same ip/proxy as another player. The MHs send out a warning if you dont this. If then still the member doesnt contact a MH (as i said above how hard is it to send in a support ticket stating you need an exception?) then your closed. Still find it hard to beleive people cant either read the rules or do somthing as basic as that (or as to why people are still arguing the point mhs should be more polite)

As far as your exception rule goes sure.. they cant prove that your playing 2 accounts. Ive said this for rounds, however, it does stop you from interacting both accounts (ie crashing one into another to help it) so yes your able to play 2 accounts in thoery (which i agree is stupid) but at least you cant use one to help the other. (im not defending the exception rule btw i know its completley flawed before somone starts posting again regarding my statement then)
I dont care if someone should of read the current rules, im arguing to change the rules as the current rules are crap.

Why does someone need to get an exception? I dont understand the system, can you please explain to me what this 'exception' system actually does and the advantages of using it?
1. The MH already know who's using duplicate IP's, they dont need someone to come online.
2. The MH have no knowledge or evidence that they are one or two person, so the exception is always granted.
3. It forces someone to come on IRC for something trivial, hell there could just be a button.. "Hey you're using 2 accounts, are you 2 seperate people or a cheating multi?.. Please click the option below!!!

The exception rule does not stop people interacting, you can keep the 2+ people interaction rules without the need for an exception.



Quote:
The point here is light, your living in a dream world. 9 out of 10 times if you warn somone for lets say an abusive email or fleet name (this brings me to the post MZ made about mine) The player you have warned doesnt think 'oh gosh... ive been warned for an abusive fleet name' (it tells you WHY you were warned in the mails if people bother to read them) 'i better stop and think about what i name my fleets now' course they dont... instead they name them to somthing else or of course come onto these forums and moan about the MHs. So therefore after a few warnings they are closed. And after the closure they come into the channel claiming to have never saw these warnings (which of course we all know is a complete lie)
No, If someone does an abusive fleetname.. YOU REMOVE THERE PRIVILEDGES TO RENAME THERE FLEETS. Then they cant do it again, if they do it again.. then you can close them for hacking into PA. It is impossible to get 2 warnings for fleet names when you get the ability removed at 1 warning.

Quote:
My point is here i know your trying to justify the system maybe to new players who dont maybe use irc often etc. But until the community of older players stop abusing the system then the Mhs cant change the way they act/think (as i stated in my first long post) Plus, if i was warned by a MH and got such a mail as 'you have been warned for abusive language' etc i would want to know why.... dunno about you but id be the first one in the MH channel demanding why. So dont understand why no one else would want to know either...
If you want to know why or appeal the decision, you can still come online and talk to the MH's. Im not arguing to delete the Multihunter channel, im arguing to stop it being mandatory.

You get the warnings+explanation+the punishment and saying if you wish to appeal the decision or know more, please come to #multihunters. However, if you know you've been caught, you dont have to come online so the MH's can get an egotrip.

I dont understand what old players have to do with anything? What would an old player do? "omg ive been warned and it says i can either carry on playing with the warning or i can go to multihunters to talk about it!"

Quote:
How do you know what they are doing is crap and inconsistant? As you said you have no knoweldge of the cases they deal with other then a rambling of somone whos been caught. So bassicaly your basing your apinions on what? somone's say so? Ive been a MH, ive also been a MH manager and had to make decisions on the spot which one side disliked and another liked. You will NEVER win over the whole community, and becuase of that one side claims your biased to another which isnt the case.
They're being crap as they're closing planets for trivial reasons.
They're being incosistant in the eyes of the community, which is all that matters as it means the community has no faith in them.

Quote:
Your job is to enforce the rules and punish the people who choose to constantly every round try and find a loophole or a way around the rules. (ie cheat) You stand here demanding the MHs actually for example instead of closing people for abusive fleetnames/planet names they change them and warn them... are you aware the Mhs actually do this already?
No, im instead of closing people for abusive fleetnames.. you remove there ability to rename there fleets.

Quote:
This is my point, instead of trying to dictate the MH manager makes changes, why not try and find out via just asking a MH the rules and regulations which they actually enforce already and YOU WILL SEE they probably do most of what your sugesting already on these forums its just narrow minded people choose to beleive the ramblings of people been punished then having faith in the guys who have given up their own spare time for the game they love to try and improve it for honest players. No they are not perfect, but as kargool said they are trying.. and it isnt just Ace atm. People didnt agree with how Spinner used to close people, nor phil, nor xontas, nor myself, nor cin... you WILL NEVER please everyone.
Can you link me to the MH rules and regulations document? (im guessing, there isnt one)



At the end of the day Assassin, either things were done differently when you was a MH or you're memory isnt what it used to be. Let me detail what happends with someone who has an abusive fleet name:
1. Either it gets reported by someone or the MH spots a fleetname which may be offensive.
2. According to the Multihunters in this thread (so is correct), the Multihunters then talk amongst themselves and decide as a group weither it is offensive or not.
3. If its decided that it is offensive, the planet gets a warning and told to come to #multihunters.

Now why does he have to come into #multihunters? The Multihunters have already decided he is guilty. There is nothing he can say to convince them that it is not offensive, as the multihunters have already decided as a group that he is guilty. All your analogys fail, as in this case.. The court decides weither you're guilty or not before you get contacted.. you're not coming into #multihunters to state your case, you're coming into #multihunters for them to get an egotrip.
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Last edited by Light; 26 Jun 2010 at 14:17.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 14:32   #136
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Why does someone have to defend themselves, when there's nothing to defend. The MH's have made there decision, thats why you've already got the warning! There is absolutly no reason to be forced to come online on IRC unless YOU want to appeal the decision.
This. Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
The exception rule does not stop people interacting, you can keep the 2+ people interaction rules without the need for an exception.
I think Spinner made this point too, in his "I got closed lol" thread. Start with the basic assumption that your customers are honest and rule abiding until evidence to the contrary proves otherwise.

As for the whole exception business, a bot could deal with the interaction rules simply by autosending a mail when someone logs in from an IP from which another account is played. "Hi, you're logging in from the same IP as person A at coords x:y:z. This has the following implications for your and their accounts: you can't do B, C or D". Then if they break the rules, put an MH on their case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
If you want to know why or appeal the decision, you can still come online and talk to the MH's. Im not arguing to delete the Multihunter channel, im arguing to stop it being mandatory.
People should be informed of what they did wrong, though, whether they like it or not. The current mail people get is completely useless in that regard and should be improved so that it actually tells you what you did wrong.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 14:36   #137
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
People should be informed of what they did wrong, though, whether they like it or not. The current mail people get is completely useless in that regard and should be improved so that it actually tells you what you did wrong.
Yup, thats what i argued for in my suggestions. That the mail tells you what you've done wrong, the punishment for it (i.e. a warning, dont do it again. Or Fleet renaming ability has been removed) and that it tells you where to go if you wish to appeal the decision.

Quote:
This is my point, instead of trying to dictate the MH manager makes changes, why not try and find out via just asking a MH the rules and regulations which they actually enforce already and YOU WILL SEE they probably do most of what your sugesting already on these forums its just narrow minded people choose to beleive the ramblings of people been punished then having faith in the guys who have given up their own spare time for the game they love to try and improve it for honest players. No they are not perfect, but as kargool said they are trying.. and it isnt just Ace atm. People didnt agree with how Spinner used to close people, nor phil, nor xontas, nor myself, nor cin... you WILL NEVER please everyone.
Ive asked in the #multihuners channel for the rules and regulations that they enforce and what they do but its apparently confidentual and players cant know.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 16:50   #138
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I dont care if someone should of read the current rules, im arguing to change the rules as the current rules are crap.

...

No, im instead of closing people for abusive fleetnames.. you remove there ability to rename there fleets.

Can you link me to the MH rules and regulations document? (im guessing, there isnt one)
you don't know what the rules are.. but you want to change them anyway?
also re: to your last post, yes there is a set of rules. i got them when i mh'd like 20 years ago or whenever that was (sure feels like that long ago!). and as long as the game has been played it's never been public knowledge. also any mh showing them to you would be breaking the nda. people have argued the same point as you about them not showing the community what the rules are, but if we follow assassin's analogies of comparing the mh to the police, the police don't show the world how they investigate things either. the theory is that if the criminals know what procedures are in place, then it's easier for them to develop ways around them.
the mh's actually do quite a good job most of the time, it's teh cases like this that bring them back to the spotlight with a negative effect. every day there's things they have to do. warn this planet for abusive language, warn that planet for abusive fleetname, monitor a pair of planets with the same ip. for the most part, people who get the mails go 'oops' and change their fleetname. it's the ones who come onto the forums and complain that you hear about the most.

oh and i really do like the idea of removing someone's ability to change fleetnames, i think it would get rid of a ton of headache for both mh's and the community.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 17:04   #139
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Aryn View Post
but if we follow assassin's analogies of comparing the mh to the police, the police don't show the world how they investigate things either. the theory is that if the criminals know what procedures are in place, then it's easier for them to develop ways around them.

I'm not sure how things work in third world countries like Swaziland, but in Finland the police have to follow the law which does involve rulings on things like when they are allowed to conduct investigations, when they are allowed to wire tap things; the police need a permissions from the court to be able to say investigate your home, and they won't be allowed such a permission simply by saying "I have a hunch I want to gut this guy". Additionally, the vast majority of court decisions are open for public (if the court session itself is closed, the decisions are available).

Police can say, by conducting an illegal investigation (edit: an analogy: a multihunter telling you they can check your identity from a federal US database), cause forfeit of evidence in the court of law. If you have a "hunch" someone's growing weed in his home, you go in without court permission, and find weed, it won't be eligible evidence in court. The court decision itself will be public (with very few exceptions).

In contrary to countries like Swaziland and games like Planetarion, where the rules enforcement also define the law (or it's unavailable for public) they function under. In terms of Montesquieu, in most western countries (not People's Republic of North Korea, The Russian Federation, or People's Republic of China) follow the classic separation of powers. In Planetarion and Swaziland, however, executive, legislature, and judiciary powers are all essentially in the hands of the multihunters, and the results are typically similar.

Quote:
However, when you have somtimes people on purpose keep putting up offencive fleet names after they have been warned out of protest/to be anoying then yes they need to be punished and somtimes the only way to do that is to close them im afraid
This is an analogy to Swaziland too - in most civilized countries, laws are designed to create incentives for people not to misbehave. In Swaziland, the laws are created and enforced because the king wants to punish someone (edit: ie. trade unions are considered terrorist organizations and are on regular basis mugged by the police). In a western country, you won't end up executed for speeding multiple times: they'll simply take your driver's license away and prohibit you from driving a car. In Swaziland, they will simply kill you if you're irritating them.



In Swaziland, King Mswati the Third is not responsible for anything. He can commit murder, and he cannot be taken to court. In Finland (most civilized countries), people generally don't have immunity to misconduct from their position: if a police conducts an error, they will be held responsible. This is different from Swaziland or Planetarion, where the multihunters or King Mswati the Third can do whatever they wish, and they don't need to explain their reasons to anyone (police in Finland will be requested an explanation from if they commit mistakes: however, in Finland there is a court separate from the executive police that can objectively judge the actions of the police; in Planetarion and Swaziland, there is nobody governing the multihunters or King Mswati the third).



I like the police analogy. To be honest, the multihunters are nothing like police. They're the equivalent of Stasi, Gestapo, KGB, or King Mwasati. They don't answer to anyone (or if they do, they answer to a very separate party that is relatively immune to laws concerning normal people), and they're allowed to exert their own decisions and are outside regular jurisdiction.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 26 Jun 2010 at 17:12.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 17:17   #140
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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it's the ones who come onto the forums and complain that you hear about the most. .
Or then it's the most retarded decisions like punishing people off fleet names or galaxy banners that could equally well appear on the chuckle brothers as they appear on Planetarion. It boils down to the fact that the multihunters, much like Gestapo or Stasi, aren't expected to deliver a clear reason behind their decision, and if their decisions are challenged (ie. you can challenge police decisions and the local police won't be the party making the verdict on your challenge; neither will the chief of police), they can simply go Gestapo on you and first say "it's none of your business to know how our decisions are made" (like Stasi; unlike Police who have to follow a code of law). If you keep on insisting you require fair treatment from a third party, they will simply go King Mwasati 3rd on you and close your planet (ie. toss you into jail because you were "annoying". the intelligence agencies are known to "remove" people that cause them uncomfort too: the police cannot do this).
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 17:19   #141
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

i'd love to be allowed to kill people for irritating me. seriously.

anyway yah, the hunch thing sucks. though you'd be suprised at how many people mail the mh saying 'i think so&so is cheating because he did xxx' so they get tips and act upon them. also i'm pretty sure that known cheaters are watched like a hawk, it's kinda hard not to be biased against someone who's already been caught. i agree that they shouldn't be biased, but i'm just sayin it's hard not to be.

the policemen themselves are not allowed to divulge info about a suspect to the public, or any details on a case. (i may be wrong but i think almost every country has that). though some higher up chief can do public briefings, that's just never happened in PA. it might be because some details would breech the confidentiality agreement and nda.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 17:20   #142
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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you don't know what the rules are.. but you want to change them anyway?
I know what the rules are. Me saying 'im not arguing about someone not reading the rules' is in responce to Assassins post where he saying people should read the rules as an argument not to change them.

Quote:
also re: to your last post, yes there is a set of rules. i got them when i mh'd like 20 years ago or whenever that was (sure feels like that long ago!). and as long as the game has been played it's never been public knowledge. also any mh showing them to you would be breaking the nda.
Something never being public knowledge is not an argument that they shouldnt be public knowledge.

Quote:
people have argued the same point as you about them not showing the community what the rules are, but if we follow assassin's analogies of comparing the mh to the police, the police don't show the world how they investigate things either. the theory is that if the criminals know what procedures are in place, then it's easier for them to develop ways around them.
But you can view what procedures the police can use (and what they use frequently), you can view all the possible punishments for a particular crime including a minimum and maximum with a brief description when to use the minimum and maximum.

The laws the police use, are public.

Quote:
the mh's actually do quite a good job most of the time, it's teh cases like this that bring them back to the spotlight with a negative effect. every day there's things they have to do. warn this planet for abusive language, warn that planet for abusive fleetname, monitor a pair of planets with the same ip. for the most part, people who get the mails go 'oops' and change their fleetname. it's the ones who come onto the forums and complain that you hear about the most.
Its cases where they're closing people for crap reasons that puts them in the spotlight. All my suggestions aim to stop the closing for closing for crap reasons without opening new avenues to cheat or circumvent the rules.

Quote:
oh and i really do like the idea of removing someone's ability to change fleetnames, i think it would get rid of a ton of headache for both mh's and the community.
Ty.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 18:01   #143
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

For the record.
In the change log page it already got mentioned that as of round 34 we got an option that allows us the remove stuff like changing fleet names from planets for limited times or the whole round.
This option gets used a lot as it prevents ppl from getting 3 warnings for fleetnames or gal banners etc wich result in closures.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 18:06   #144
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Originally Posted by Ace View Post
For the record.
In the change log page it already got mentioned that as of round 34 we got an option that allows us the remove stuff like changing fleet names from planets for limited times or the whole round.
This option gets used a lot as it prevents ppl from getting 3 warnings for fleetnames or gal banners etc wich result in closures.
Then why was Hosie's planet closed?

and why are you still forcing people to come into #multihunters so you can 'tell them off'?

Also, why do closed planets have there fleets recalled? but fleets attacking them are still allowed to land?

If it gets 'used' alot? then why are you bothering giving them 1-2 warnings for offensive fleet names? why not just use it instantly and not require them to come into #multihunters unless they want to appeal? It cuts down on your workload and it cuts down on players having to come to you.

Surely the argument that the attacking fleet shouldnt be punished for the closure so should still be allowed to land, should also apply to the person the closed planet is defending?
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 18:11   #145
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

Like I told you before we cant go in to details of cases with anyone other then the planet owner.
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 18:12   #146
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Like I told you before we cant go in to details of cases with anyone other then the planet owner.
Ok then. If someone gets told they have to come into #multihunters or they will get closed due to there warning, if they arnt nice? will they be closed?
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Unread 26 Jun 2010, 19:02   #147
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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the policemen themselves are not allowed to divulge info about a suspect to the public, or any details on a case. (i may be wrong but i think almost every country has that). though some higher up chief can do public briefings, that's just never happened in PA. it might be because some details would breech the confidentiality agreement and nda.


Again, this is very typical for intelligence organizations and despots, not police. Police have someone they answer to: they only enforce laws, they do not come up with them. The problem here is that when you give a power hungry egocentric person power, he will soon come up with things to do just to spank people that annoy him: eg. ban things that offend him/her on very strict basis. Court will provide open access to information on cases. Police will provide you with an official document that describes just what you have done wrong (ie. a speeding ticket), and if you are unhappy with that, you can escalate it to an authority monitoring the police behaviour. Here, you can barely get a document stating on what you've done wrong or if you do it's going to be very vague.

To give you an analogy, this is what typically happens in communist/many non-democratic countries: governments ban things they dislike no matter how ridiculous (read the discussion Light had with Ace about banners linked above) it is. It's a lot of talk about some power-hungry, ego-tripping tyrant with essentially unlimited power just going wild with it. Seriously, if that banner offends someone so bad, then butter being a multihunter is probably an insult towards men at large. Much like Swaziland being ruled by a tyrant is an insult towards all the country's residents.

They're going to infinitely back down to the NDA: the problem with the police analogy is that in (western) legal systems the police, when deemed to have possibly misconducted, will have to explain their actions: the vast majority of court rulings (apart from things like espionage cases) are public. Here, you can just say "lol i think ur banner is dumb i remove it NDA sry won't talk it bb".
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Unread 27 Jun 2010, 08:18   #148
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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also re: to your last post, yes there is a set of rules. i got them when i mh'd like 20 years ago or whenever that was (sure feels like that long ago!). and as long as the game has been played it's never been public knowledge. .

This isnt true. As such. When i was MH manager myself and Squishy used to do a post at the beggining of the rounds informing members of the rules and tried to be as descriptive as possible as to what we would enforce without giving to much away to breach the NDA. Example of this is here:


http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=189492

Now in that post myself and the rest of the MH team got togther and decided to try and explain the rules as best we could (even pasting the EULA) so that way members know what to expect. I have asked the current MH team to do somthing like this for many years since (for some reason my other threads have vanished off the forums... think when i was arguing with Fiery over the support planet rule stuff around 10 rounds ago my threads 'vanished'.. conspiracy? anyway thats another story...) But this is the type of thing i was trying to point out to light earlier.
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Unread 27 Jun 2010, 08:48   #149
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

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Pardon? Was we discussing money? We were discussing how you catch somone whos breaking the law and bring them to justice. Dunno about you but if i got a letter through the door claiming i had to go to the police station as i had just murdered somone im not going to take that to seriously. On the other hand if i had the swat team banging down my door... well you get my point.
For someone throwing metaphors around you sure have a hard time understanding other's.

To make it simpler:

For murder you would be arrested and need to go to court for trial, 'just as' for cheating you are closed and need to come to #multihunters for 'trial'.

For speeding you get your ticket through the mail, for abusive fleetnames you get a warning and a mail. No need to go to the court/mh chan.

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Unread 27 Jun 2010, 09:32   #150
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Re: PA Multihunters - Bringing back the lols

I know that there is a lot of feeling around this subject and there are issues to be addressed.
However, repeated personal insults will not be tolerated. If anyone else wants to take a time out for a week or two, they're welcome.
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