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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 14:29   #251
ArcChas
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylez1877 View Post
Joops and I DC'd other people all the time. About 230 times...if you want to keep track.

Thanks for the credit.
Sorry Stylez, I hadn't forgotten (or ignored you). Indeed I specifically explained (and sympathised with) your position earlier in the thread (see post #137).

I too have DCed several times this round. 53 to be exact (although 40 of those calls were my own).
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Last edited by ArcChas; 28 Sep 2012 at 14:36.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 14:56   #252
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
So basically 60 accounts in an alliance being run by 3 to 4 active players at night? Doesn't apprime do that already and call it VNC??
Well no, because unless there are ACTUAL dc's who dc everyone, it'll be who ever is calling for defense, it also saves money spent on SMS'ing people which means we can spend more money on credits! and you still need to UPDATE every time its used, its really not all that different to how it is now in most alliances with a munin clone.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 15:34   #253
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by oil View Post
/snip
Wow man, that's a lot of bitterness you need to work out.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 15:59   #254
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Re: Well done Ult

it's actually just quite annoying to have some idiot interrupt a discussion you're having in order to talk about irrelevant crap and then repeatedly accuse you of not being able to read when you point it out to them.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 17:53   #255
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Re: Well done Ult

might be time for CT to disband if they can't try new approaches to winning
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 17:59   #256
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Re: Well done Ult

I think it's safe to say that the HC are well aware of the problems and are taking steps to improve matters for next round.

Please bear in mind that I'm a (not so) humble peon and that any comments I have made are expressions of my own views and opinions.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 18:08   #257
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
might be time for CT to disband if they can't try new approaches to winning
the one round ult would easily have lost due to the worst stats in the last 25 rounds, sad
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 18:10   #258
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Re: Well done Ult

you make it sound like ult played all those 25 rounds... and who are you trying to offend with that comment?
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 18:17   #259
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
the one round ult would easily have lost due to the worst stats in the last 25 rounds, sad
Appoco is looking for volunteers for next round stats...
The good reviews for this rounds stats have outweighted the bad ones.
but hey can't please them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I think it's safe to say that the HC are well aware of the problems and are taking steps to improve matters for next round.
The image that comes to mind with the #CT.HC channel would go a little bit like this...

http://imageshack.us/a/img690/3117/e...1intheroom.jpg
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 19:14   #260
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Re: Well done Ult

Hehe - very droll.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 19:41   #261
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Re: Well done Ult

I always imagined #ct.hc had blue carpets tbh...
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 20:05   #262
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Appoco is looking for volunteers for next round stats...
The good reviews for this rounds stats have outweighted the bad ones.
but hey can't please them all.



The image that comes to mind with the #CT.HC channel would go a little bit like this...

http://imageshack.us/a/img690/3117/e...1intheroom.jpg
Personally I haven't heard a single person say these were good stats, but hey we all see double sometimes.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 20:10   #263
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Re: Well done Ult

actually wouter i have seen a lot of people on irc and on the forums say they liked them. It only seems to be a few whiners that have said they didnt, mainly cos they couldnt build 3 ships and make themselves immune
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 20:11   #264
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Re: Well done Ult

I only built 2 ships, and i didn't like them!
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 20:46   #265
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
actually wouter i have seen a lot of people on irc and on the forums say they liked them. It only seems to be a few whiners that have said they didnt, mainly cos they couldnt build 3 ships and make themselves immune
I am not saying no one liked them, I said everyone I spoke to said these were bad stats.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 21:18   #266
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Re: Well done Ult

I have not heard people comment positively on this round's stats either. Par for the course, though, which either means the stats of the last 10 rounds have been uniformly shit, or people expected too much. Either way.
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Unread 28 Sep 2012, 21:35   #267
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Re: Well done Ult

To be fair, the stats werent bad this round. Even if most decent ships were off etawise with defence i mind. Means everyone was roidable and everyone were roided as far as i know.
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Unread 29 Sep 2012, 05:01   #268
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
To be fair, the stats werent bad this round. Even if most decent ships were off etawise with defence i mind. Means everyone was roidable and everyone were roided as far as i know.
I was able to land solo (and i mean without escort...) on my attacks. This is enough for me to find those stats good. Ofc people were able to land solo on me too but that's the way I like PA.
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Unread 30 Sep 2012, 22:26   #269
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Re: Well done Ult

yea, alliance def wise - messy stats
solo land wise - brilliant stats

I guess one rule out the other, hence the different opinions.
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Unread 1 Oct 2012, 13:30   #270
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
might be time for CT to disband if they can't try new approaches to winning
Would that go for every alliance other than ultores then, or..?

Can you respond to this too pls, thanks: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...&postcount=234
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 10:32   #271
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
Would that go for every alliance other than ultores then, or..?
Apprime seemed to have done decent the defense culture, just didn't play the politics too well this round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
Can you respond to this too pls, thanks: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...&postcount=234
From previous post what makes a good defense culture and when it goes to shite it is hard to turn around (hence why I was suggesting that CT disbands due to its reputation for shit defence and how it can cause recruitment issues)

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...9&postcount=28

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...2&postcount=14

Now comparing CT and Ultores against each other.

Ultores has the flexibility to cancel attacks and ground to defend each other in the event of heavy incs. I have seen CT decided to continue attacks when they know that they have heavy incs.

Remember always think of fleet logistics.

In terms of DCing I suspect that CT has 2-4 DCs to cover 55-60 members. Whilst ultores have a set up of you pretty much DC yourself / ally gal mates inc (whilst a bit self serving / self preservation it does the job of having a defense culture to DC inc.)

My own take on a DC room is many hands make light work and treat mass defense calls like a production line. IE.

Head DC Delegates the work load to the rest of the DCs then helps where there is bottlenecks.
1 DC gets scans
1 DC calc Builds
1 DC does FI/CO calls + calls for anti Fi/co
1 DC does fr/de calls + calls for anti fr/de
1 DC does Cr/bs calls + calls for anti Cr/bs
1 DC could do .sms / !call
1 DC could do recalcs on partically recalled incs etc to get fleets back in a hurry.

From my time in CT in r40 I did see CT impliment a recalc (especially fleet catches) from 1-several recalled incs

IF memory serves CT still work under a point system where your roid count / defence sent and small bonus for folk DCing inc?
(I am not certain of this and could use verification on this)

My suggestion (if ya gonna ignore disbanding and reforming under a new tag) is instead of flag shipping 2-5 planets for possible Planet win (ie make them defend). have a competitive minium defense points where if the member(s) are below this they don't get defense on principle.

But I suspect that the defense culture at CT has decayed to the point of no recovery
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 10:50   #272
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Re: Well done Ult

not sure why people think a def point system is so good. name one top alliance, recently, that has used this successfully?

def works through people wanting to help each other, not through people being forced to help each other or else they get no def.

tof was never some pinacle of awesome def but, after the first week or 2, our defence was always pretty decent.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 11:04   #273
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
not sure why people think a def point system is so good. name one top alliance, recently, that has used this successfully?

def works through people wanting to help each other, not through people being forced to help each other or else they get no def.

tof was never some pinacle of awesome def but, after the first week or 2, our defence was always pretty decent.
That is the ideal situation where you get members defending off their own backs.

but what do you do when that doesn't happen?

Edit - I have seen players like valle go from less than 10 defence fleets all round at omega to top defender at ND due to the defense set up at the respective alliances.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 11:16   #274
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Head DC Delegates the work load to the rest of the DCs then helps where there is bottlenecks.
1 DC gets scans
1 DC calc Builds
1 DC does FI/CO calls + calls for anti Fi/co
1 DC does fr/de calls + calls for anti fr/de
1 DC does Cr/bs calls + calls for anti Cr/bs
1 DC could do .sms / !call
1 DC could do recalcs on partically recalled incs etc to get fleets back in a hurry.
For what it's worth, I always worked alone as a DC (though that was years ago). When the number of incomings threatens to overwhelm a single DC, you get a second to do all of the work on half the incs, not half the work on all of the incs. DC'ing requires a lot of information, and transmitting it from the first half of a call to the second half is much more labour-intensive than sharing information between two calls.

Splitting between types of incs could work, I guess, though I can't recall having tried it. If the original DC documented what he did, then doing recall calculations can also be split off from the rest. Beyond that, in my experience, it's best to each DC to handle entire calls, rather than having each DC do part of each call.

This whole-call-per-DC approach also works well with the setup Ascendancy, Apprime and Ultores use(d), namely that of a single DC per galaxy. Only rarely do the incs on a single galaxy overwhelm a single decent DC.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 13:26   #275
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Apprime seemed to have done decent the defense culture, just didn't play the politics too well this round.
Oh ok so it's only every alliance other than ult and app who should disband then? cool. are the new combinations of alliances you're expecting to spring up going to consist of exactly the same players as before by any chance or have you got something else in mind?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
From previous post what makes a good defense culture and when it goes to shite it is hard to turn around (hence why I was suggesting that CT disbands due to its reputation for shit defence and how it can cause recruitment issues)

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...9&postcount=28

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...2&postcount=14

Now comparing CT and Ultores against each other.

Ultores has the flexibility to cancel attacks and ground to defend each other in the event of heavy incs. I have seen CT decided to continue attacks when they know that they have heavy incs.

Remember always think of fleet logistics.

In terms of DCing I suspect that CT has 2-4 DCs to cover 55-60 members. Whilst ultores have a set up of you pretty much DC yourself / ally gal mates inc (whilst a bit self serving / self preservation it does the job of having a defense culture to DC inc.)

My own take on a DC room is many hands make light work and treat mass defense calls like a production line. IE.

Head DC Delegates the work load to the rest of the DCs then helps where there is bottlenecks.
1 DC gets scans
1 DC calc Builds
1 DC does FI/CO calls + calls for anti Fi/co
1 DC does fr/de calls + calls for anti fr/de
1 DC does Cr/bs calls + calls for anti Cr/bs
1 DC could do .sms / !call
1 DC could do recalcs on partically recalled incs etc to get fleets back in a hurry.

From my time in CT in r40 I did see CT impliment a recalc (especially fleet catches) from 1-several recalled incs

IF memory serves CT still work under a point system where your roid count / defence sent and small bonus for folk DCing inc?
(I am not certain of this and could use verification on this)

My suggestion (if ya gonna ignore disbanding and reforming under a new tag) is instead of flag shipping 2-5 planets for possible Planet win (ie make them defend). have a competitive minium defense points where if the member(s) are below this they don't get defense on principle.

But I suspect that the defense culture at CT has decayed to the point of no recovery
Maybe I'm missing something but your suggestions for how to improve ct appear to be:

1: Disband.
2: If you don't disband, take a leaf out of ct's book and use defence points.
3: Delegate your dc work to seven different dcs, despite the fact that you've already been told that this level of dc activity simply doesn't exist.
4: Stop flagshipping planets.


Number 4 being the only one that isn't completely redundant, it might be something to think about. I do remember whilst in ct a few people complaining about the likes of ronin not having to send out as much defence.

But most of those people seemed to quieten down when it was explained that the reason why those few players were getting defence despite sending less def fleets, was because they were getting def points for doing all the def calls. Which to me seems completely fair. If you put in more, you get more out. A pretty good incentive to attract dcs (active/skilled players) in an alliance that struggles to find them.
But supposing it doesn't attract new players, and supposing that it wouldn't send dc activity through the floor if you started offering no incentives for doing it, how many planets are you expecting in ct to start increasing their def fleets? 3? 4? Hardly a revolutionary change in defence capabilities at the expense of probably pushing your top players out into the next ult spot that becomes available..
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 13:33   #276
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
Ultores has the flexibility to cancel attacks and ground to defend each other in the event of heavy incs. I have seen CT decided to continue attacks when they know that they have heavy incs.
Missed this bit. I remember the hc giving a relatively good argument for why this was the best option before (i think on the forums). I can't remember exactly what but I think it basically came down to the fact that we were probably going to do better launching attacks than trying to defend our planets. I imagine for a number of reasons ranging from likelihood of us landing our attacks (which most people here seem to respect to some degree), offensive stats, and an awareness that unlike in ult, us grounding our fleets probably isn't going to guarantee having a large number of people online to send out their ships when needed. I don't know though, i imagine a ct hc will explain it to you if you ask them though.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 13:47   #277
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
For what it's worth, I always worked alone as a DC (though that was years ago). When the number of incomings threatens to overwhelm a single DC, you get a second to do all of the work on half the incs, not half the work on all of the incs. DC'ing requires a lot of information, and transmitting it from the first half of a call to the second half is much more labour-intensive than sharing information between two calls.

Splitting between types of incs could work, I guess, though I can't recall having tried it. If the original DC documented what he did, then doing recall calculations can also be split off from the rest. Beyond that, in my experience, it's best to each DC to handle entire calls, rather than having each DC do part of each call.

This whole-call-per-DC approach also works well with the setup Ascendancy, Apprime and Ultores use(d), namely that of a single DC per galaxy. Only rarely do the incs on a single galaxy overwhelm a single decent DC.
splitting parts of calls, it really depends on the DC(s). i have DC'd where someone would be making all the basic calcs (target planet+attackers) for all incs that showed. someone else is checking what ships people have available and calling those people. then the "head" dc is PM'd the bcalcs and available ships when people come online. can work very well.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 15:17   #278
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Head DC Delegates the work load to the rest of the DCs then helps where there is bottlenecks.
1 DC gets scans
1 DC calc Builds
1 DC does FI/CO calls + calls for anti Fi/co
1 DC does fr/de calls + calls for anti fr/de
1 DC does Cr/bs calls + calls for anti Cr/bs
1 DC could do .sms / !call
1 DC could do recalcs on partically recalled incs etc to get fleets back in a hurry.
Wow! 8 DCs - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

CT has never had that many (at least since I joined them in R31). In fact we're lucky to have that many members active on IRC at "key times".
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 15:22   #279
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Re: Well done Ult

CT flagship planets may be the DC planets but for people who can't DC will get constantly roided due to not getting the same amount of def points as someone who does, so will continue to lose value and have crappy def fleets.

prioritise roid counts sure, but you shouldnt get extra from the alliance if you dc, that's pure selfishness and hence why CT is now seen as a FLAGSHIP ALLIANCE. def points work, just the system CT uses doesn't.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 16:30   #280
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
Missed this bit. I remember the hc giving a relatively good argument for why this was the best option before (i think on the forums). I can't remember exactly what but I think it basically came down to the fact that we were probably going to do better launching attacks than trying to defend our planets. I imagine for a number of reasons ranging from likelihood of us landing our attacks (which most people here seem to respect to some degree), offensive stats, and an awareness that unlike in ult, us grounding our fleets probably isn't going to guarantee having a large number of people online to send out their ships when needed. I don't know though, i imagine a ct hc will explain it to you if you ask them though.
Example Round 47:
CT has a 57m lead, including stock from both Ult and CT.
Theres 7 days left and CT decides that attacking is more beneficial as #1 ally with the most value and score? Sounds to me like that logic doesnt fit at all. You need 2 to 3 lands for every land you get against you. Which makes it impossible to profit in any way.

Also dcing should give you extra credit? Thats why the point is there, there shouldnt be any defpoints gained by dcing, you dc for the sake of the alliance. Not your own ambition.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 17:33   #281
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Re: Well done Ult

all systems have their pro's and con's. I'm personally keen on a system that encourages members to be (pro)active at key times. Be it either by the Ult/App BP DC system or by having set DC's that prioritise calls that have i-scans and calcs done.

In R41 TGV we essentially worked with 1 Head DC that decided where ships had to def. On top of that we had a group of pro-active members that made sure calcs were done and that recalced calcs on later eta's. Beside that we encouraged our members to be online so they could communicate on available galaxy def and such. For our fort we required a DC to be on when it was known they would get incs. This fort-DC was then responsible for all calls on the fort that went past ally eta.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 17:53   #282
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Wow! 8 DCs - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Actually for the first 700 ticks of DS last round (when we were good defensively) we ran something near this that worked.

When mass incs appeared Fizz scanned all the incommings he could then requested all the ones he couldnt.

Meanwhile i started covering obvious incommings... things like Banshees vs FR and stuff, knowing basically laying out fakes on mid sized roid planets would get recalls.

When Fizz had finished scanning (XX:05) then i would work down the calls starting with eta 7's, if another DC was free or someone who was about and keen to help in general i would ask them to start on the eta 9's (as a lot of decent anti BS was in eta 9 defence) FR/DE was my least priority as nearly all its ally def ships were eta 7.

Fizz would then follow behind every .sms i made for defence by doing !call 2-3 times. He would be checking off that that person had sent and i would set it as covered when he said they all had.

It made covering mass incs very easy imo with 3 people of which only 1-2 were a proper DC.

I think that is what Paisley is getting at but maybe massively over complicating it.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 17:58   #283
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
CT flagship planets may be the DC planets but for people who can't DC will get constantly roided due to not getting the same amount of def points as someone who does, so will continue to lose value and have crappy def fleets.

prioritise roid counts sure, but you shouldnt get extra from the alliance if you dc, that's pure selfishness and hence why CT is now seen as a FLAGSHIP ALLIANCE. def points work, just the system CT uses doesn't.


First 500 ticks no, everyone should be treated equal - HC's/ Head DC can check through quickly and keep tabs on people not contributing on defence via ingame tools. You need to keep people active and intrested so letting them get roids cos they have less roided than someone else is wrong (ok there is expections but anyone above 350 as standard should get defence)

In the last week, of last 10 days then you can stop deffing those outside your top 50 and not defend everyone with less than say 500 roids. That is protecting your alliances main roids and people will want to push the team home then.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:03   #284
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
For what it's worth, I always worked alone as a DC (though that was years ago). When the number of incomings threatens to overwhelm a single DC, you get a second to do all of the work on half the incs, not half the work on all of the incs. DC'ing requires a lot of information, and transmitting it from the first half of a call to the second half is much more labour-intensive than sharing information between two calls.

This whole-call-per-DC approach also works well with the setup Ascendancy, Apprime and Ultores use(d), namely that of a single DC per galaxy. Only rarely do the incs on a single galaxy overwhelm a single decent DC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Wow! 8 DCs - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

CT has never had that many (at least since I joined them in R31). In fact we're lucky to have that many members active on IRC at "key times".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
splitting parts of calls, it really depends on the DC(s). i have DC'd where someone would be making all the basic calcs (target planet+attackers) for all incs that showed. someone else is checking what ships people have available and calling those people. then the "head" dc is PM'd the bcalcs and available ships when people come online. can work very well.
It all depends on the amount of incs
I wouldnt use 8 DCs for 3 incs but more like 100-200+ incs
It can vary from 1 DC (doing an irvine as an example) to several DCs wether it is done as a PA style Chef de partie system or DC your inc... As a HC it is their responsibilty to make sure that this is in place and that it works.

my experience of r40 at CT is that there are members who wont DC (but can calc up attacks) I have seen the likes of anrgyduck not dcing but would use !sms and call for def as an assistant to DCs (which is 1 step better than just talking shite in the members channel)

Bear in mind that if you leave silly amount of Incs to 1-2 DCs it can cause dc burnout as I have witnessed in several allies and the effects of this.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:15   #285
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
Maybe I'm missing something but your suggestions for how to improve ct appear to be:

1: Disband.
2: If you don't disband, take a leaf out of ct's book and use defence points.
3: Delegate your dc work to seven different dcs, despite the fact that you've already been told that this level of dc activity simply doesn't exist.
4: Stop flagshipping planets.
1. Disband ... yes to lose the reputation of the flagshiping and shit defense
2. Reinvent the defense set up for the new ally so you don't go back in the same loop.
3. see previous posts. 1 DC for casual inc, several dcs for heavy inc.
Do what you must to prevent DC burnout.
4. The minute you get members thinking that the rules don't apply to them... that is where problems start.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 15:53   #286
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
1. Disband ... yes to lose the reputation of the flagshiping and shit defense
2. Reinvent the defense set up for the new ally so you don't go back in the same loop.
3. see previous posts. 1 DC for casual inc, several dcs for heavy inc.
Do what you must to prevent DC burnout.
4. The minute you get members thinking that the rules don't apply to them... that is where problems start.
1: Suggesting an alliance disband isn't part of a suggestion of how the hc can improve the alliance. It's suggesting they give up and start again. Just out of interest though, if ct did disband exactly who do you think they'd be recruiting in place of the members they already have for their newly named alliance?

2: The only "reinvention of the defence set up" i can see you suggest here (given that you already advocate using a point system) is that you don't give def points to dcs for dc'ing. So I guess this is just the same as point 4 (unless you'd care to offer some further suggestions)

3: Yeah this isn't a suggestion either. It's already been said that ct doesn't have this number of dcs. Replying with "oh well just use less when you have less online" translates to "If you stumble upon a treasure chest of DCs, here's a great way to use them! If you don't find said treasure chest, keep doing exactly what you're doing!"

4: The rules do apply to them though. they apply to everyone. it's just that only some of the members can be bothered to dc.
The entirety of your ideas for how ct can improve appear to boil down to not giving def points to dcs for dc'ing. As I said here: "But most of those people seemed to quieten down when it was explained that the reason why those few players were getting defence despite sending less def fleets, was because they were getting def points for doing all the def calls. Which to me seems completely fair. If you put in more, you get more out. A pretty good incentive to attract dcs (active/skilled players) in an alliance that struggles to find them.
But supposing it doesn't attract new players, and supposing that it wouldn't send dc activity through the floor if you started offering no incentives for doing it, how many planets are you expecting in ct to start increasing their def fleets? 3? 4? Hardly a revolutionary change in defence capabilities at the expense of probably pushing your top players out into the next ult spot that becomes available.. ", I don't think it's a good idea and that even if it is, the change would be minimal. Can you respond to those points, thanks.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 17:26   #287
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
Example Round 47:
CT has a 57m lead, including stock from both Ult and CT.
Theres 7 days left and CT decides that attacking is more beneficial as #1 ally with the most value and score? Sounds to me like that logic doesnt fit at all. You need 2 to 3 lands for every land you get against you. Which makes it impossible to profit in any way.
If round 47 was last round then I don't know (i quit halfway through), but if it's the round before that then i remember pretty good arguments given for why we didn't ground. Exactly what they were i can't remember, but like i said before i imagine it probably had something to do with realising that having our ships at home ready to send is a very different thing to having your members online throughout the night ready to send them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter
Also dcing should give you extra credit? Thats why the point is there, there shouldnt be any defpoints gained by dcing, you dc for the sake of the alliance. Not your own ambition.
What do you actually think is going to happen in ct if the hc turn around and say "you no longer get def points for dc'ing because we've realised you should dc for the sake of the alliance, not personal ambition"? That a legion of previously carefree members are going have an epiphany of dedication to the cause and start waking up at 5am to dc everyone elses incomming? Probably not. What would probably happen is that the actives who'd stuck with you would get pretty pissed off at having to carry the burden of players who essentially can't be bothered and just ship off to ultores like i imagine half your members are living proof of.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 18:01   #288
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
What do you actually think is going to happen in ct if the hc turn around and say "you no longer get def points for dc'ing because we've realised you should dc for the sake of the alliance, not personal ambition"? That a legion of previously carefree members are going have an epiphany of dedication to the cause and start waking up at 5am to dc everyone elses incomming? Probably not. What would probably happen is that the actives who'd stuck with you would get pretty pissed off at having to carry the burden of players who essentially can't be bothered and just ship off to ultores like i imagine half your members are living proof of.
Why have a def point system at all?

Just get those DC's to priorotise roids and score. An active DC will know who he asks to defend every night and who defends when smsed/called. Once a week go through the Fleets Sent and set a reasonable limit (10 defences by end of week 2, 15 by week 3 and so on...) and anyone below is marked up for NO DEF in your DC channel topic. If they want to come on and DC themselves then thats fine, they are contributing and more active then and taking reposnsibility for their own planet (most would probably DC some alliance mates in their galaxy as well) but otherwise Dc's will ignore their calls. This pushes the more you put in the more you get out mantra that better alliances play with.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 18:26   #289
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Re: Well done Ult

This thread has become quite hilarious.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 18:38   #290
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This thread has become quite hilarious.
i must be missing something then, as it makes me wanna gouge out my eyes.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 19:35   #291
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Re: Well done Ult

I think oil is mistaking me for wouter with not rewarding members for DCing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
Also dcing should give you extra credit? Thats why the point is there, there shouldnt be any defpoints gained by dcing, you dc for the sake of the alliance. Not your own ambition.
Members DCing other folks incs off their own backs is the ideal situation.
If this fails to materialise use incentives to get folk to DC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
1: Suggesting an alliance disband isn't part of a suggestion of how the hc can improve the alliance. It's suggesting they give up and start again. Just out of interest though, if ct did disband exactly who do you think they'd be recruiting in place of the members they already have for their newly named alliance?
It would have been easier to have fixed the defence issue rounds ago where a revamp/rename wouldn't have been nessesary. The desirable players / members know that if they want to keep roids but will get up when Called/SMSed to send defence and maybe a bit of dcing go to ultores, apprime or an alternative ally out of loyality or for something new and not CT.

CT in its current state won't get those players needed due to shit reputation.
It is now a vicious cycle that would be hard to get out of... Glad I am not a CT HC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
2: The only "reinvention of the defence set up" i can see you suggest here (given that you already advocate using a point system) is that you don't give def points to dcs for dc'ing. So I guess this is just the same as point 4 (unless you'd care to offer some further suggestions)
I suggested having a competitive minium defence requirement. If anything I would advocate in CT's case have bonuses for members who will/do DC as well as members who send defence at key times.
Tbh I would prefer a lazy member to emo over not getting defence because they havent sent enough fleets and / or not DC any incoming over top defenders / top DCs. Some would call this sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

Again it would have been easier to have done this rounds ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
3: Yeah this isn't a suggestion either. It's already been said that ct doesn't have this number of dcs. Replying with "oh well just use less when you have less online" translates to "If you stumble upon a treasure chest of DCs, here's a great way to use them! If you don't find said treasure chest, keep doing exactly what you're doing!"
I know CT have members who don't / will not DC from my time there in r40. if they don't want to do the main duties of DCing they could at least assist the DCs in scan fetching / calc building / .sms / !call and take the work off the actual DCs and prevent burnout when there is heavy inc ... try and get lazy members proactive is one of the key points to recovery. Get them to earn their place in the ally.

2 reasons for this ...
1. Get the lazy members more proactive.
2. Take the strain off the DCs / folk who will DC. keep them happy so that they don't shipjump to another ally (maybe why that there is a DC shortage if one was to speculate)

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil View Post
4: The rules do apply to them though. they apply to everyone. it's just that only some of the members can be bothered to dc.
As soon as you get a Ronin type player knowing that they will get their incs covered even with sending very little defence fleets in return ... this will cause member discord for folk who get roided frequently but do put out the defence fleets.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 22:10   #292
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
splitting parts of calls, it really depends on the DC(s). i have DC'd where someone would be making all the basic calcs (target planet+attackers) for all incs that showed. someone else is checking what ships people have available and calling those people. then the "head" dc is PM'd the bcalcs and available ships when people come online. can work very well.
This is fairly close to what we did a few rounds in Ascendancy. The basic def calc would be done by someone who is online anyway while the DC's cover the easy single fleet incoming with the correct class. Often calcs and calls would be discussed in the channel and everyone were on the same page pretty fast, that meant that calls got covered even when none of the main DC's were around because all of the members had watched us do it in the channel over and over. If you keep everything "secret" in one channel with a limited number of people, the members are totally oblivious on how to even do a def call. You need to educate everyone, and sharing information goes a long way to accomplish that.

Everyone should be able to see the defense page in alliance. It's a wonderful tool and it can help people send without irc access. I have no idea if this is common practice in CT or other alliances apart from Apprime and Ult. But it damn well should be.

Can any of you even remember the days without it? You had to rely on people reporting incoming and you were basically sending def blind with no way of checking if people sent except JPG'ing. Probably the most undervalued addition to this game.

Shev is repeatedly bashing his head against a wall in this thread, despite being full of good intentions. There's really sound advice in his posts and he has been a big part of successful alliances in the past. I guess that's part of why he's allowed to do a coattail ride now too, but the truth is every alliance needs people that play like him too to make up the numbers. If everyone cared a ton and nearly quit when they got roided, that alliance would be totally shit.

As a DC, you often get a feeling of what can get covered and what can't. Even in the "hardcore" alliances, you only have a certain def pool available at a certain tick. It can often be a good idea to cover the first wave in gal when you know alliance def is running low.

Taking it to the next level isn't about numbers or spamming harder. It's about knowing your members. Making friends with them. A guy is much more likely to get online in the middle of the night if he has a personal connection to the guy asking him. Same thing applies to seeing others defend. A midsized guy might lose a wave one night, but if he sees one of the top planets in his alliance defending him, he will gain confidence instead of losing it and absolutely want to help the guy that helped him. You absolutely need your best players to set the best examples.

Wouter talked earlier about not having to earn your def. I disagree. You absolutely earn your defence in an alliance, but it's not earned by roids or score or rank. It's earned by trust and respect. Many of those guys in dominating alliances today come from shitnests like Denial or Evolution. They tried the old alliance paradigm and with lots of activity too, but 90% of the time they lost to the Ascendancy way. To their credit, they changed how they play the game, and the results are conclusive; they are dominating now. There's no reason why an alliance like CT can't go through the same changes over a period of a few rounds. All you need is a HC with some vision and balls.

The hardest part is probably to know when not to be selfish. Last round we had a few nights of hitting CT and the amount of def Stylez drew was nothing short of ridiculous. Judging from this thread, he probably deserved it as the only one giving two shits in CT, but it set a really bad example for all the other CT planets that got roided that night. I would wager that it had been more beneficial for the alliance overall that night to pull def on one big wave and cover 5 solo attackers instead. Maybe not even roidwise, but it's very important for players moral that they don't just go completely undefended. If their alliance doesn't give a shit, why should they give a shit? Much of the insipid conduct in CT can be attributed to lack of loyalty, commitment and belief. It's up to the HC to change that.

At it's most extreme, we were pre-dc'ing in Asc. Seeing what waves would launch the next tick, calc'ing them, marking down who should be available to defend it, even saving def for it. Heck we regularly checked every planet in the alliance for def xp on sandmans to see if they sent out stuff already. I remember how more than once it was said "we only have xxx's and yyy's anti FR left, so we can't cover this" Now that's knowing your alliance! I don't expect that kind of overview from everyone that plays the game, but it sure helps to have a few people that have it. Strive to use every single fleet in your alliance. It's like a giant puzzle and the incoming and outgoing fleets are all pieces that fit together. The challenge starts every night and it's up to you to complete it. Maybe JBG can explain it in a way that doesn't make it sound like you need to be autistic, but I sure can't
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Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 22:15   #293
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
The hardest part is probably to know when not to be selfish. Last round we had a few nights of hitting CT and the amount of def Stylez drew was nothing short of ridiculous. Judging from this thread, he probably deserved it as the only one giving two shits in CT, but it set a really bad example for all the other CT planets that got roided that night. I would wager that it had been more beneficial for the alliance overall that night to pull def on one big wave and cover 5 solo attackers instead. Maybe not even roidwise, but it's very important for players moral that they don't just go completely undefended. If their alliance doesn't give a shit, why should they give a shit?
As an example of how not to do it: which alliance was it that, a couple of rounds ago, set no defense on people outside of the top 20 or with fewer than 1400 roids? Was it hAVEn?

Boy, did we have a hearty laugh at that.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 22:27   #294
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Talking Re: Well done Ult

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What do you actually think is going to happen in ct if the hc turn around and say "you no longer get def points for dc'ing because we've realised you should dc for the sake of the alliance, not personal ambition"? That a legion of previously carefree members are going have an epiphany of dedication to the cause and start waking up at 5am to dc everyone elses incomming? Probably not. What would probably happen is that the actives who'd stuck with you would get pretty pissed off at having to carry the burden of players who essentially can't be bothered and just ship off to ultores like i imagine half your members are living proof of.
This is exactly why CT fails, a DC should want to DC to make the alliance better, not his own planet. A member DC'ing for the sake of being flagshipped is worse then an whole ally not DC'ing at all.
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 22:47   #295
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
This is exactly why CT fails, a DC should want to DC to make the alliance better, not his own planet. A member DC'ing for the sake of being flagshipped is worse then an whole ally not DC'ing at all.
For most, it has to be both. It's unreasonable to expect anyone to completely put their ego/planet aside, but you need to embrace this as a good thing and harvest the positives from it. I definitely DC'ed in the past partly for selfish reasons. I absolutely know you did too. Heck, if you DC your alliance only to make it better, that's selfish too, but on another level, wanting your alliance to better than another alliance.

But this could turn into a philosophical discussion pretty fast...
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Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 4 Oct 2012, 23:23   #296
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Re: Well done Ult

Here's the thing: if people in your alliance aren't willing to sacrifice for each other, then no amount of def points, lofty speeches about inches, threatening with no defense or kicking for sucking is going to make people play better than they would on their own accord.

I saw up close how Apprime tackled the last 300 ticks of the round and it's the best example of how an alliance can become a diamond under pressure that I've seen in many rounds. Even so, this round in Apprime, it was just a small-scale thing, especially near the end: saving a single planet is not that ambitious a goal, even one run by as awesome an individual as Benneh. There were many parallels with round 37, in which Ascendancy worked their asses off to keep BlueArmy in the lead: sacrificing to save one planet is just throwing fleets in a bottomless pit. It may be fun, it may work, and after the round's over, people may feel good about themselves despite getting roided to dust, but it's not really the pinnacle of PA.

We can talk about how to DC incs, or how to punish crashers, or whether to init to 300 or 500 roids, or how to best keep Cardi away from other alliance HCs, or how to best fool someone with a fake, or what race to pick, or when and where to best SK without getting SK'd back, but while skill is important, it only gets you so far in this game. Basic competence is really all you need. The same goes for activity, more and more so as time goes on: it is now more about availability, thant about being at your PC 24/7. If you have a dozen of guys able and willing to DC, or a couple of JBGs or Golans in hardcore mode, you've already reached the point where, on skill and availability/activity, you can compete with the best alliances in PA history.

However, when you get to the level of the superpowers, the way you play the game game kind of stops being the most important thing. I don't mean that you should stop caring about winning the game. If your alliance doesn't care about winning, it won't win. You need to have that drive, but not at the cost of everything else. Sometimes, the game is just a way to engage with each other socially. The game is a way of showing respect towards your alliance mates. It's building something together. I know that sounds vomit inducing, but I can't really phrase it better, because I haven't seen it that much myself and I'm just trying to put it into words for the first time myself. Bear with me. (Or don't; go on, piss off!)

What it most certainly is not is the way alliances like ROCK used to play the game. (I name them specifically because I was there for 10+ rounds and had a hell of a fun time, so don't think I'm bashing on them.) Alliances like ROCK were here to have fun, but paradoxically, never hesitated to sacrifice the game for basically anything else. That's not it.

What it also isn't is alliances like CT or HavEN who devise elaborate bureaucracies around def points and cost-benefit analyses of which planets with which roid counts to protect and tolerating that one def leech because, hell, she DCs all the time and no one else can be arsed to do it, so we kind of have to allow her to leech. They have the focus, but not the cohesion. The commands come from the top, and like in an army, people are expected to follow orders. But this is not war. This is a game and there are no real repercussions to refusing. Eventually, getting ordered around stops being fun and people stop caring. (This is hyperbole; I am aware.)

What it may be is that, with the right people, and the right mentality, PA stops being a game of hurting the opponents. They stop being important, beyond being an obstacle to jointly overcome. Whether you see that happen has nothing to do with winning or losing. Sometimes, an alliance pulls together while they're getting murdered, like Apprime this round. Sometimes an alliance pulls together while they're winning, like Ascendancy in r30. Whenever it does happen, it happens under heavy pressure. Most of the rounds I've played in Ascendancy, it didn't happen. We had the right culture, but there was usually no need or desire to go balls-to-the-wall apeshit mad. And as hard as it is to judge that from the outside (someone invite me!), I'm pretty sure it didn't happen in Ultores this round, either.

I dunno. Maybe this entire post is a steaming pile of dog shit. But I can't help but shake the feeling that there's a good sociology paper in here somewhere, just beneath the surface.
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Unread 5 Oct 2012, 03:13   #297
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
steaming pile of dog shit.
Rules will only get you so far. People thrive when given some responsibility. Taking it all away from them isn't going to get you anywhere worthwhile. and people will get bored.

I honestly don't think there was much pulling together in Apprime this round. Firebird did what he could for the purpose of a planet win (which in the end was handed to Benneh by Hasu/Ultores more than anyone else), but it was not in the channel and it was not in the culture. I think the comparison to Asc in r37 hits home to a point, we did flagship BA, but we also had 5 of the top6 planets. By then it was pretty clear that Asc was not the alliance that had won 5 out of 6 rounds from r28 to r33. We took what we could get, and that was a planet win. Apprime have had some dominant rounds in the past, but here in r48 they are probably close to the care level of late Asc.

Sometimes we talk of round 30 like it's the holy grail, but the truth is it had the perfect mix of ship stats made for defending, people committing because it was "the last jolt round" and galaxy fortress setups. Combine that with motivation like INCH BY INCH and we felt damn near unstoppable.
Asc did have other rounds where a similar mentality shone through, but never for the duration it was needed in r30. At least two other times come to mind, while getting hit by the whole universe for 3 days in r28 and in r26 with the lolwaves on our biggest planets. And several nights scattered throughout the rest of the rounds where we had mass incoming and people pulled together. Ascendancy was always at its best when facing overwhelmingly bad odds tbh. Good times (I am aware I wasn't as excited about these things when they were happening JBG )
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Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 5 Oct 2012, 08:37   #298
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Rules will only get you so far. People thrive when given some responsibility.
Ah! Yes, I should've emphasized that more in my post. I guess I forgot to.

Is the realization that people do better when they're feeling like they have a job to do, especially if you haven't explicitly told them to do it, one that Ascendancy made first? I'm genuinely curious, since Ascendancy is one of two alliances I spent a lot of time in (ROCK being the other), so my view of things is obviously skewed towards them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Apprime have had some dominant rounds in the past, but here in r48 they are probably close to the care level of late Asc.
Agreed. If they're presented with a chance to take a win (whether it's planet, galaxy or alliance), they'll take it, but beyond that it's more about doing ridiculous things than anything else.
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Unread 8 Oct 2012, 23:09   #299
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Re: Well done Ult

I think part of the motivation for Ascendancy in r30 is that no one had ever won three rounds in a row, and we really wanted to be the first. Many alliances have done well because they have a point to prove: the fact that is difficult is just one part of that.
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 21:31   #300
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Re: Well done Ult

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I think part of the motivation for Ascendancy in r30 is that no one had ever won three rounds in a row, and we really wanted to be the first. Many alliances have done well because they have a point to prove: the fact that is difficult is just one part of that.
I love how, for the last 4 or so years at least, every former member of Ascendancy who takes an interested in these forums strokes that big ol Ascendancy ego.

Moving on to facts for uno momento since round 20ish there has been consistently less than 2000 players. Yes, sure Asc won prior to that, post pax I might add so still only a few thousand players. Also, the time everyone talks about is round 28+ et cetera with a further reduction in players to >1500.

Now let me make my point. I wonder how the 'ascendancy' way would of affected rounds 1-10. Why is there no talk now of when strict military regime was the roots of the greatest alliance known to PA (Legion/Fury et al). Let us not forget Asc/Ult/App have arguably only been such huge successes because of the mass accumulation of all of the most active, 'hardcore' players in the game.

All in all, for the greater good of the game, it might be worth spending time to stop gloating and stroking and putting some effort into the forward motion of the game's development *cough*.
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