Round 26 stats
 

Since Cochese didn't make a thread yet...

The current stats being tested can be found at beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats

My personal opinion:

A few things that struck me:
1. cathaar have more kill ships
2. no fighter pods
3. not all races have structure killers
4. structure killers are upgraded


1. This is something I like, although I don’t expect miracles of it. You still cannot kill Bs. And Fr only as a T3. I don’t think this will make a huge difference. There are no untargetted def ships that make sure at least 1 class of incomming will not attack you. The way it is now you can only use you kill ships if you have already frozen your attacker. That is not a solution to the problem.

2. This is not a major change either since Xan will be likely to build a fi/co fleet anyway.

3. Hmm. For zik I can understand this: they can steal them. But why cathaar?

4. Ok. This is weird. Especially the Haunt is very strong. This is a must if you want to attack Co-heavy Cathaar with De. Why make sending structure killers along a must? Do we want people to quit? Or do we just want Cathaar to quit? Didn’t we just give them more kill ships to prevent the little Cathaar from quitting? I though structure killers were mainly intended for alliances who were at war with each other.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

As regards 3.

* Topic for #pastats is: for r26 stats discussion, this is the place || Beta stats are missing Zik and Cath SKs, will be added LATER
* Topic for #pastats set by Monroe at Wed Mar 12 19:16:46 2008

As regards 4 that's probably because this set of stats hasn't been changed in any way whatsoever since myself and tzu put them together for the very first time. Similarly I imagine emp has to be tweaked and stuff like that (daggers have 0 emp resistance for example).

Re: Round 26 stats
 

The stats at the moment, imo are god damn awful.

Cath just get battered to shite. Ziks are also to strong from what ive found . ah well still tweaks!

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Etd have only cloak and emp ships... no steal ?

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Last rounds stats wasnt far off, a few "tweaks" here and their cuda balanced them without having this major overhaul.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Stats get boring as shit if their not changed every round or so, figuring out the new stuff is about the only thing that vaguely requires 'skill' nowadays. We had the old set for what 2/3 rounds? They needed to be completely redone even if they do still need some work at the moment.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

emp co->co,fi and steal co->co,fi combined is an awfully bad idea

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Terrans seem to suck anti co/fi

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Revision1 is done:

Cathaar

-Black Widow targeting: fi/co->co/fi

Zikonian

-Pirate armour:60->65

Eitraides

-Recluse targeting: de/fr/co -> De/fr, init: 1>2
-Defender class: fi->fr, targeting fr-> co/fi, init: 1>2
-Lancer targeting: fi/co->Bs
-Broadsword armour:20->24, dmg:18->20
-Fireblade armour:30->32, dmg:24->30

-Various changes to pods/sk's(not important)
-E/R changes accross the board(not yet done)
-EMP-guns changed accross the board(not yet done)

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Eitraides still without a steal ship?
Although i don't think it's too important.
More important is... the Eitraides CR fleet.
Still with high init? better armour but ...
need to see the efficiency resource matrix to make a decision ...

Re: Round 26 stats
 

yeah, good luck for the Eitrades going CR... all the anti CR in the universe fire before them. Their FR fleet doesn't look much better.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

This doesn't necessarily mean it's useless, regardless of the fact it's actually not true. After all everything bar last round's investor (no really you could actually build them) fired before terran bs and that didn't turn out so bad. The fr fleet fires before er, everything really now, so I'm not quite too sure what your point is there.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

That would help if the stats on the link were updated. Good if the ETD are improved coz the first set of stats made them start from bottom.
I'll wait to have more finalised stats before commenting further on playability, but still, dropping the Ter DE pod, no FI pod, only 5 FI (1 per race) but 11 BS, introducing all those new names, etc... it looks like changes have been made for the sake of changing. I hope it works though, coz all I want is a nice round for each race.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...Jhb-qyMRhKPaYQ

There you go, emp is still not updated as tzu said above (nor are those final). The names were changed to reflect the more general changes to the ships themselves.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

God who the f**k cares if ter has a fr pod instead of de :(

Im very positive to the changes mentioned, the stats are starting to look better

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Ter have had DE and BS pods for ages, it is the default race... I agree with you though but the other way: why was it so important to change it ? :bunny:

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Thanks.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Makhil, why are you so attached to the terran De pod? Can you give me one reason besides "it's always been this way"?

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just dont make the same mistake as r23 cat with those 3 attackships for etd... easy to overpower.

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The point is: was there any real need to change everything, the Ter DE is just an example.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be changes, just not sure about the amount. But it's just questions I have... we'll see.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

So that's a no?

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I remember the days of Ter FR pods, they were cool.

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back in the day ter had De AND Fr pods.nice fakes i did that round :)

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Well, if the statmakers reckon that Terran should have FR pods given the combination of ships and races arrayed against it, in order to facilite balance, then there is no problem with what any class pods a race has.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Luckily im Asc so i will know which race is the best next round :-)

Re: Round 26 stats
 

E/R revised, emp-guns changed to something closer to reality.

Black Widow moved to BS-class anti-cr/bs ship and reworked.
Scorpion anti-de now.

Wyvern armour 50->55

Still one round of tweaks to go, but nothing major left.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...JhbM84OSyOzTGw

Newest version.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

obviously you're trying hard not to understand. It's the amount of changes i'm questioning. Taken separately Ter DE pod becoming FR is irrelevant.
I've played ETD last round, I don't recognize any single ship, even the idea of this race is now different, with no steal ship, with high init kill ships.

At this point what i'd like to read is the idea behind those changes.
At first it seems like those stats will be tough on solo players, was the idea to boost team ups in ally ? It looks like 0 loss landings will require more bashing, is it intentional ? In general it looks like each race will be more difficult to play, no doubt pleasing the most experienced players, was it the idea ?
I'm not attacking the stat makers I just try to understand.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

If you consider this set of stats a modification of the previous set, then yes, there's lots of changes. But that is not the case, for this is a new set altogether, not based in any way on the previous set.

If I were to guess, then I'd say they did that because the r25 stats had been in circulation with little modification for several rounds now, and it was time for something new.

This in turn is because stats makers are almost forced to do this every few rounds, because it's the only thing that regularly changes, and without that, the game would be static, which would make things boring.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Mz, no feeding the trolls, ok? Not even the ones who are unintentionally trolling and contributing nothing at all to a thread. Makhil, please stop, you're making reading this thread a pain for the rest of us.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

As mz says the stats were entirely reimagined by sun_tzu. He created the style of stats he wanted to and then we modified them. My, as I won't speak for tzu, motivation when helping to modify the stats I will explain. Basically each race should be capable of using each fleet to effectively roid something. I believe the most recent stats iteration has accomplished this. However what I wanted to avoid was an absolute gimme roiding fleet, such as zik de on zik last round. This stems from my belief that while attacking in PA should be both rewarding and fun it should not be impossible to stop.

On top of this each race should retain part of the unique identity it was intended to have because this is what makes playing the different races an enjoyable experience in and of itself. This is not always practical, a pure emp race would probably get raped blind 24/7 unless it was staggeringly overpowered for example. However as much is retained as possible. As a sidenote eitraides were redone so as to give them a sense of purpose and uniqueness as opposed to feeling like you were playing a hodgepodge of every other race.

Defence is intended to be easier. I didn't want to see a race having to dump res into anything bar attack fleets or ally eta def fleets, I think this has been accomplished. Ally eta def fleets should be capable of contribution from a wide range of sources. To elaborate slightly on what I mean I'd guess most people would say that co (or fi/co) is the best attack fleet out there. However every race has a co class ship which is either a t1 or a t2 targetter of co.

Overall my hopes were to make each race playable solo but to make defence more viable, teamups rewarded and different approaches possible.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Thanks

Re: Round 26 stats
 

I totally agree.

But Eitraides can't roid with the CR fleet. There are only 2 ships with higher init: Black Widow and Dragon. And all races will have anti-cr outside the roiding fleet with lower init.
And teamups? Doubt any Cath wants to teamup with Eitraides CR fleet...

Re: Round 26 stats
 

over the past month i made a program which automatically tells you whether stats are balanced or not, who can hit who, and assigns a colour rating to each attack fleet and race to ensure it's as balanced as possible.

Then for whatever reason, 4 days before I completed this program, I was removed from the PA Reps forums and channels and I decided f*&$ you, you're not having this.

Yes I have been IRC inactive over the past few rounds, yes I am difficult to contact at times, and yes I understand I have no authority anymore - but to not even discuss/mail me about it and just remove me? That's a horrendous way to treat anyone, let alone a r1 vet.

Best of luck with the stats, I can't be bothered to help anymore.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

mail it to me..I'll claim it as my ow....i mean i'll have a look

Re: Round 26 stats
 

tux :(

Although I highly doubt that program works as well as you think it does ;)

Re: Round 26 stats
 

I'd like to see the implementation of this just because I doubt the capabilities of any program such as this.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

The terran bs fleet last round was in a similar situation. And if you don't think a cath would want to team up with etd cr you're actually just flat out wrong and you're so wrong I struggle to know where to start.

Haha.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

I wonder if this is a new tactic of the stats team. To flame and discredit everyone who says anything against the stats. I have to admit, its a clever way to ignore criticism. I guess thats what u get for picking possibly the most arrogant players in PA to write the stats.

PS the "ur wrong im not going to listen to u" argument does get boring after a while.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Why would any cath not want to teamup with etd cr? It kills shit. Emp teams up with fleets that kill shit. It's pretty much as close to a given as I can imagine.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Just because its "given" (to u atleast) doesnt mean u dont have to justify ur choices if they are criticised. Pretending like u know better than everyone else just makes u look like an ass hole.

Also if ur going to omg flak armour the etd cr, make them normal ships not cloak. The point of cloak is to be weak and fire "early" with strong firepower.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

I'd assume they have more armor than other Etd ships because they do not in fact fire early. Oh, and you're exaggerating.

By the way, why are people so obsessed with 'the point' of things? Is there anything against slow-firing high-armour cloak ships besides the usual "it's always been this way"?



P.S. I think what annoys JBG and Tzu is that many people who really don't know what they're talking about seem to think that this does not disqualify them from a say in the stats process.



[edit]My edits took too long :(

Re: Round 26 stats
 

but then dont cloak them, there shud atleast be consistancy with the type of ship, thats my point.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

I'd struggle to imagine why anyone would post on a strategy forum without first understanding the very basics of ingame strategy. Frankly if everyone has such painfully ignorant complaints to make I really don't feel like I have to justify myself sixteen hundred times. I don't care if I look like an asshole, I don't like wasting my time.

Actually that's the point of xan. Etd have a whole other paradigm going on.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Bring back Subverting!

the old attacking and defending the same target in same tick could be done again :devil:

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Simply, because cath has a decent CR fleet. And if Cath wants to kill something, just need to had a few BS?

And changing Kthal Fireblade init from 8 to 7, while firing after the Naga ter frigate, would make it fire at same rate as Bomber and Drake. Would that make a huge difference?


P.S.: only noticed now: etd cr ships are a little cheaper than what i saw on 1st look of the stats. That could, infact, make a huge difference, making Etd cr fleet a playable one. But only efficiency resource matrix can clear this out

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Multi-class attack fleets are, almost axiomatically, weaker than single class ones. Not only that but etd cr is far more efficient than the cath bs killers and can also kill fr, which cath bs cannot do.

Lowering the init of the fireblade to match that of the bomber would make xan pretty much unable to stop a cr teamup which will not only freeze at 194% efficiency (although I talked to tzu and this is likely to be lowered a bit) with its roaches but also fires at the same time with its fireblades.

As I said above
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...609&page=stats

The stats have been updated if you're interested in look at the efficiencies. As you can see etd cr has armour roughly equivalent to a zik ship with damage roughly equivalent to a xan. Basically it's xan cr which has swapped its early init for some armour.

For reference, those aren't final. Tzu's just terrible at working out e/r by hand so we entered the changes to see the efficiencies. Expect one last round of tweaks on monday/tuesday (he's away for the weekend).

Re: Round 26 stats
 

:confused: god damn zik are just getting crapper and crapper!!

and is it me or is Xan losin the Low Inti it always used to have lol

bring back round 14 stats :banana:

just me lookin at the Zik as a Zik player makes me feel abit ill, the BS is pretty much Useless SIMPLE:
And the de pretty much gets rapped where ever it lands

Dont get me started on the WHOLE cloaked CR fleet on Etd, its only my thoughts i had to put them in writing lol before i went insane shoutin at the screen!

Re: Round 26 stats
 

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Re: Round 26 stats
 

eh???