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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:17   #1
Tietäjä
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In the wake of recent events

Going out with women.

It's expected for the man to show some gentleman's gestures, and for me it's rather normal - it's the way I've been raised to work things out with dates, and it's the way it usually works best. Do I get branded as a chauv (admitted, if chauvinism is what "radical feminism" isn't, then, I'm definately a chauv no questions there) if I open doors, pay the bill, and walk the lady home?

I'd assume I'd get, but on the other hand none of the the (few of them) women I've been out with so far have complained about it, even though it's definately chauvinism. (and the popular opinion seems to be that when it comes down to being a gentleman and nice to women it's actually expected that men behave chauvinistic).
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:19   #2
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Women want equality, with added perks.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:22   #3
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Ok. I'll keep on being a gent then. I'll not mention I got the tip off the interweb forums, though.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:22   #4
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Re: In the wake of recent events

That's just silly, though, taking into account that they find the word "woman" insulting.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:23   #5
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Oh God, don't take my word for it.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:26   #6
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Re: In the wake of recent events

In fact, the between the lines message was my wondering on the situation at large, given the posts furball dug up. I'm just a little baffled by the situation, but I think the equality with perks sums it up. It still makes no sense, though, but I guess that's normal with women.


ps. It's quiet at work and I'm a little bored.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:30   #7
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Firstly, it's womyn.

Secondly, I think this irrationality permiates pretty much everyone in society. Even discounting God-mania, pretty much everyone has some belief or other that would absolutly crumble under any kind of careful consideration of the facts.

Rationality and intellectual honesty are two aspects of society that desperatly needed and desperatly lacking in modern society.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:33   #8
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Re: In the wake of recent events

To be honest, I think they're not desperately needed. And if they were, they're not really a positive thing. Imagine, if all those womyn, all of the sudden, started thinking "rationally" and "intellectually honestly". I think that'd just drive them nuts, and the public healthcare is already struggling with the amount of suiciders and other freaks pouring in.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:03   #9
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Re: In the wake of recent events

The people I linked to are radical feminists. Like any radical, they're complete retards who are unrepresentive of the whole.


Women might not look down on you for not opening doors, etc, but it'll get you brownie points. Splitting the bill depends on the person you're with and how things went - if you chose the restaurant then it'd probably be a good idea for you to play, but if she's dragged you to a dingy cafe then it's all in the moment. Some women refuse to let men pay for them, just accept it and count the money you'll be saving.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:19   #10
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Re: In the wake of recent events

The thing is, furball, how can a radical feminist, if a feminist by definition is defending equality, be so anti-male?

I actually worked for almost an hour now!




Ps. If I wanted good company cheap, I'd pick an appointment to the University Health Care psychologists. They're 3,50 per hour, don't bitch, nag, whine, or cringe, always listen, always talk to you back, and at least pretend they're interested. Heehoo.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:23   #11
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Re: In the wake of recent events

A feminist promotes female equality with men. A radical* feminist promotes women over men - and that woman took it to the extreme.










*retarded
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:25   #12
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
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A feminist promotes female equality with men. A radical* feminist promotes women over men
Normally the difference lies in what 'equality' is taken to mean (its not an uncontroversial notion).
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:32   #13
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Normally the difference lies in what 'equality' is taken to mean (its not an uncontroversial notion).
Certainly abolishing the other gender (whatever Womynland they're suggesting) cannot result in equality between the genders, as by the probably mentioned already on the other thread categorical imperative. I'm really puzzled with the definitions, though.

Just a sidenote, though, I wouldn't suggest going anywhere near one of these radical feminists, or womyn, however you see it.


ps. brownie points are always good when it comes to women.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:51   #14
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
ps. brownie points are always good when it comes to women.
Very true, you have to collect as many brownie points as you can to unlock the brown star.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:01   #15
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Women usually want it both ways but rarely allow men to get it both ways.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:04   #16
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Re: In the wake of recent events

...

I'm confused.

Are you trying to say you're not getting ****ed in the ass enough?
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 20:04   #17
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Paying for the bill with a woman is stupid unless you're better off than her or you'll reap the "rewards". I don't necessarily mean sexual rewards here. I might pay for the meal if my girlfriend has driven over to mine, instead of me having to get a train to hers. Or if I know she'll pay for something else if I pay for the meal (eg: cinema or tickets to something).

Paying for a meal with a woman is the equivalent of buying a drink for a girl in a bar. It's stupid, and it's (in my opinion) close to social prostitution as you're effectively paying the girl for her company.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 20:15   #18
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
...

I'm confused.

Are you trying to say you're not getting ****ed in the ass enough?
LEARN ENGLISH
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 20:20   #19
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Actually i think he showed an excellent grasp of English (for somebody who doesn't have english as their first language) and used it to good comedy effect.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 20:39   #20
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
Actually i think he showed an excellent grasp of English (for somebody who doesn't have english as their first language) and used it to good comedy effect.
OMG PWNED!
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 23:31   #21
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Being a gentleman and being a chauvinist are two very different things. That said, the bulk of my knowledge about dating comes from wikipedia. I feel sad.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 23:57   #22
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Paying for a meal with a woman is the equivalent of buying a drink for a girl in a bar. It's stupid, and it's (in my opinion) close to social prostitution as you're effectively paying the girl for her company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unashamedly stolen from b3ta
You know that fit bird on the dancefloor you’d die to knob? She's spent hours slimming, toning, waxing, plucking, bleaching, conditioning, straightening, exfoliating, moisturising, tanning, trimming, spraying, perfuming, painting, possibly surgically enhancing and expensively clothing every inch of her body – just to get your attention.

(This isn’t a special one-off effort, mind, but hours of dedicated upkeep every week - just to stave off the inevitable back-slide into Godzilla-dom.)

What effort did you put in? Slap on some Lynx? Get your mum to iron your Fred Perry shirt, did you? Wow.

And you think SHE’S the one with all the power????

Don't make me laugh.
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Unread 4 Aug 2007, 09:35   #23
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Re: In the wake of recent events

In fact, that's an interesting way of thinking about it. Never looked at it like that.
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Unread 4 Aug 2007, 16:17   #24
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
In fact, that's an interesting way of thinking about it. Never looked at it like that.
Nor had i.

Its quite distressing.

I feel like a man-whore.
I've yet to decide whether i enjoy this feeling or not.
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Unread 4 Aug 2007, 17:15   #25
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Re: In the wake of recent events

I'm not sure what furball's c&p had to do with my post. Are you saying we should buy girls drinks to get them to talk to us?
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 01:24   #26
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Re: In the wake of recent events

No, what I am saying, is, that the part about

Quote:
And you think SHE’S the one with all the power????
is rather interesting. I could rant about it a lot, but to be brief, does it come down to a) women working themselves out to get the power, or b) men having the effect on women to work themselves out for getting the alpha male.

I'm drunk, and puzzled.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 01:37   #27
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'm not sure what furball's c&p had to do with my post. Are you saying we should buy girls drinks to get them to talk to us?
I would tend to argue that buying someone a drink is generally a fairly nice gesture - I do it now and then for friends/targets alike - and in the grand scheme of things it's not exactly one of the Trials of Hercules, is it
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 13:02   #28
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
I would tend to argue that buying someone a drink is generally a fairly nice gesture - I do it now and then for friends/targets alike - and in the grand scheme of things it's not exactly one of the Trials of Hercules, is it
I don't think you understand what I was saying. Buying a girl a drink is essentially bribing them to talk to you. I've had drinks bought for me by girls (only once or twice, but still!) and I didn't like the social awkwardness as I felt obligated to talk to them for the time it took for me to finish the drink.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 18:09   #29
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
for the time it took for me to finish the drink.

Khehe. How about. A whiskey without rocks, down on the first one, goodbye miss'.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 18:11   #30
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Offering to buy someone a drink is an excellent ice breaker I find.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 19:20   #31
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I don't think you understand what I was saying. Buying a girl a drink is essentially bribing them to talk to you. I've had drinks bought for me by girls (only once or twice, but still!) and I didn't like the social awkwardness as I felt obligated to talk to them for the time it took for me to finish the drink.
Ah. If you buy someone a drink before talking to them it can be a bit weird, right enough, and I know quite a people who refuse it when it happens; on the other hand if you start talking first and then offer them a drink, that's right and proper.

This is equally true of paying for a date, which was the original point of the thing (rather than your aside - for which the c&p is even more relevant) in that you pay AFTER the meal. If a date goes badly, split the bill; if a date goes well, pay! It's a nice gesture, it's chivalrous, and the chances are you're getting paid more anyway.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 20:26   #32
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I don't think you understand what I was saying. Buying a girl a drink is essentially bribing them to talk to you.
Bribing is an unnecessarily loaded term I think. I don't go to pubs that often, but if I'm in a club I'm relatively undiscriminating in who I buy drinks for (if I'm getting one anyway). If I buy a drink for somebody I don't know particularly well I certainly wouldn't expect them to talk to me "in payment" for the drink, and in fact I sometimes walk away from them so that's explicitly clear (if the person wants to talk to you desperately they can always come find you).

This might be specific to that sort of circumstances though - most girls who go clubbing seem to be in the student category and therefore permanently broke. Since I've had many a clubbing night made worse by lack of funds, if it's during the seven day period each month that I have money, I'll tend to be sympathetic. As someone else mentioned, it's a good ice-breaker - for whatever reason it's seen as socially acceptable to buy a stranger a drink and as a non-smoker, I don't have many excuses for "going in cold". If the girl doesn't want to talk to you then it's pretty easy to say "Oh, sorry my friend's gone to get me one" or "No, I'm fine thanks" or a million other things. If she says no, and doesn't offer any more dialogue it's pretty clear what the response is. But if you go in with some "line" or even genuine conversation it's slightly more difficult to extricate yourself from the ensuing train wreck.

And it's not like you're paying for her dying brother to get a heart transplant - it's a fivers worth of drink - I don't imagine most women (even the ones I can talk to) can be bribed for that. And if they can, I'm not really sure I want to go any further before seeing a comprehensive STD workup.

Conversely though, generosity would seem a reasonable character trait to desire in a partner and/or friends. I'm not saying that you should look for a partner who will buy you presents every day, but life is a lot easier if you're surrounded by people who aren't entirely self-serving and shit. Unless it's done in an explicitly calculating manner getting the drinks in (when you can afford it) is one way of showing that you're not entirely self-serving. People being unnecessarily miserly is one of the most unpleasant character traits there is. The sort of people who argue for twenty minutes about why their share of the restaurant bill should be three quid less because they didn't have x ("it's not the money...it's the principle..!").
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 08:48   #33
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
in fact I sometimes walk away from them so that's explicitly clear (if the person wants to talk to you desperately they can always come find you).
So, you're in the habit of picking up a nice looking bird, buying her a long island, and walking off without further comment? Do they often follow you?

Quote:
This might be specific to that sort of circumstances though - most girls who go clubbing seem to be in the student category and therefore permanently broke.
Nevertheless, you'll hardly ever find a woman who'd be buying you drinks. I've had that once, I reckon, that some random woman started offering me drinks. She was middle-aged. That's probably enough said about her intentions. The other aspect to it is, that the clubs are also full of harpies. The kind of "poor student girls" who look for "rich guys" to serve them out for the night, or the early evening. Going out with whom I go out with, I nowadays dress more and more up the high end, and the recent notice has been that the obviously Russian girls (there's starting to be those in the Helsinki pub/bar/club scene) are starting to push in. What's particularily funny, is that I'm a piss poor student, the people who I'm with aren't necessarily.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 09:05   #34
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
So, you're in the habit of picking up a nice looking bird, buying her a long island, and walking off without further comment? Do they often follow you?
I generally comment by saying "I'm just going to find my friends, I'll speak to you later". And I usually do end up speaking to them later, but that doesn't necessarily imply causation.
Quote:
Nevertheless, you'll hardly ever find a woman who'd be buying you drinks.
Untrue, I'm afraid. It's probably slightly less common for women to buy drinks, because of social conventions, but it still happens fairly frequently - and that's excluding things like girlfriends of friends (who definitely buy their fair share of rounds when out).
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 09:08   #35
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Untrue, I'm afraid. It's probably slightly less common for women to buy drinks, because of social conventions, but it still happens fairly frequently - and that's excluding things like girlfriends of friends (who definitely buy their fair share of rounds when out).
Strange. Maybe it's a cultural thing.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 18:14   #36
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I don't think you understand what I was saying. Buying a girl a drink is essentially bribing them to talk to you. I've had drinks bought for me by girls (only once or twice, but still!) and I didn't like the social awkwardness as I felt obligated to talk to them for the time it took for me to finish the drink.
Ah, but do you rush the drink? Because that would be rude.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 12:46   #37
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Buying a drink for somebody you never met is a bit much I think, I mean as an opener ofcourse. But if you've been talking to her a while about random stuff, offering something to drink is alot better in my opinion.
For example I loved this one situation where a friend of mine asked a girl if she wanted something to drink as an opening line. She said "yeah, a vodka redbull please."
He should've just left her standing there, but he was horny I guess and went with it. He actually had to ask another friend and me if he could borrow some change to pay for it.. he ended up standing next to her, trying to talk but she kept responding really dry he said and he buggered off after a while.

Anyway, I'm wondering about this situation I'm in now. I'm kinda steady-dating this girl atm and so far I've offered to pay (she had her wallet in her hand for the movies etc) and paid for everything (movie, drinks and game of pool) because she's a student and I work already. But I wonder if she'll now think that I'll just keep paying for everything from now on, or if it's normal that I pay for everything. It's the first girl I've dated since I started working and she lives in a small studio for which her parents pay, she also gets a small allowance from her parents. She's planning to take up some weekend work though but I doubt it's for the near future.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 12:59   #38
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I'm kinda steady-dating this girl atm and so far I've offered to pay (she had her wallet in her hand for the movies etc) and paid for everything (movie, drinks and game of pool) because she's a student and I work already.
Yeah. Well, the way I see it at least she's intending to pay, albeit evidently you don't let her. Some women find it ackward that the male pays all the time, while some are fine with it, and personally I wouldn't on long term be interested in anyone solely under my wing so to say. Why don't you just let her pay for something small, so you can keep your gent's ego up with yourself and you're both happy with the illusion? It's understandable that you being in a different situation, and, especially if you've been going out longer, that you take the tab but it's definately good she's showing interest in paying too (and as said, you should let her some time).

It was last autumn, or early winter to be specific, that I had been dating this girl for a few weeks, and she suggested going out to see a movie. Having not had better things to do, I went out to see some random film with her. Earlier on, I had paid for some small stuff like drinks and pool, while she had paid some herself but never the other way around. Anyways, while we were picking up the tickets she said roughly "You'll pay, right?". I walked her home from afterwards, turned away from the kiss, and said said her the classical "you're a nice girl, but not quite it, maybe we could be friends".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Buying a drink for somebody you never met is a bit much I think, I mean as an opener ofcourse. But if you've been talking to her a while about random stuff, offering something to drink is alot better in my opinion.
More of the topic, though. Buying a drink as an opener is a bit stupid yeah (well, it gets you to sit with the harpies for a while, unless you pull a Dante), but after a chat I guess it's fine. Why it's the man (in gender-gender roles) paying for the social prostitution though, is hard to say.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 13:05   #39
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Re: In the wake of recent events

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Why it's the man (in gender-gender roles) paying for the social prostitution though, is hard to say.
Well the traditional role of the housewife would generally prohibit earning a wage so would natuarally have to been 'taken care of' by the men. Whether this began with 'double vodka redbull', maybe we'll never know.*


*Pop anthropology is fun!
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 13:10   #40
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Re: In the wake of recent events

I think I'm just going to have to be content with your note regarding equality with perks. (Beating the concept equality out of the word equality).
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