User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Non Planetarion Discussions > General Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 13 Aug 2007, 10:04   #1
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Economics and politics

So, today I was finally convinced why the politician-breed should keep their hands off economics. And why it's inevitably important that the people making descisions over such things are equipped to understand the mechanics behind the effects of the descisions. While my understanding of economics is somewhat lacking, I'm still astonished. If you're interested in a more professional view about the subject regarding non-economists, there's a good Krugman bit around. Despite it's name, it doesn't really require you to be familiar with the comparative advantage theory to catch the red herring.

A footnote. It's about the ignorant lazy bloke in my work (admitted, the flamebait on politics students may now have something to do with his flawed attitude instead of his kin at large). The guy I ranted about regarding crappy co-workers. I didn't cover for him the other day, so he had a phone call from the local head honcho's secretary fifteen minutes before a meet if he had arranged the setup. He hadn't. Needless to say, they went running around sorting things with the assistant very fast.

Now, to get back to my original subject. We've had a few random chats about the mentioned subject today, and I'm really baffled. First one was regarding the public sector wage demands. With the flagship of the Finnish tradeables sector, the chemicals and metals labour union, had managed to negotiate a total of around 9% wage increases over three years, the unrest has grown. (Given here, that an average nurse earns quite exactly the average wage in Finland, a little below. Teachers are worse off, but they've got comparatively shorter hours and way longer vacations). With the steady economic growth and the tradeables sector generating good money through ship manufacturings and such, the increases in the union were expected and probably more or less matched the production growth estimates. Now, nurses have stated that they will not satisfy for anything but wage increases that exceed those of the chemi and metal workers, and are willing to go on strike for it. Effectively, this would mean they'll request wage increases above 9% over three years, which probably is largely exaggerated. What makes the situation ridiculous, is that the teachers have now jumped into the bandwagon.

It's a relatively sweet schoolbook example of the football stadium effect (In case you're unfamiliar, it works like this: while everyone's seated, everyone sees okay and is comfortable. Someone wants to see better, thus stands up, and gains a better sight for a brief period. It leads to an effect where everyone soon stands up, and everyone's worse off being less comfortable standing than sitting). The overestimated wage claims will, if accepted, lead to nothing else but inflation on medium term and afterwards everyone will be less happy. There's still hope that the government may be sufficiently hard-nosed to avoid stepping into the minefield, as it's early term. The downside is, that with the strong promises for wage increases for for example nurses, the government parties will eventually be forced into raising the wages for sake of electoral play. This is probably where the piss starts leaking, and in case the nurses get their money, the teachers will want theirs too - followed by librarians, and the rest of the state officials. Burn. The politics student, inevitably driven by the typical political claim towards populism, simply stated that "because they deserve the wage increase, it's good". Of course, disregarding the bit of the news article that commented on the inflatory pressures caused by an upwards wage pressure, which would inevitably lead into everyone simply being worse off.

That's it for domestic policies. Incoming foreign politics. It's about China - there was a headliner on that economists don't believe that China will be using economic policies to enforce pressure on United States. He asked me what I think about it, and I answered that I don't think anyone's nowadays crazy enough to apply strong economic pressure on a country as large as the US just for sake of shits and giggles. Given, that China's growth is at the moment more or less boosted by foreign investors and exports, restricting financial markets or outright embargoing things would cause a large amount of damage to China itself. The counterargument to this was as follows: perhaps China could use the threat of economic enforcement as a tool to negotiate. After all, you don't necessarily have to plan on doing so; you can just threaten with it. (This coming from a person focused on global economic politics). I was rather blunt about it, ending the conversation. If the threat isn't credible, the financial markets will simply ignore it. If the threat, on the other hand has any credibility (whether there's a plan to pull it off or not), the anticipation of upcoming limits will immediately cause investors to require more risk premia in what comes to China, and this will result in a capitol outflow from China, which is a stab and will hinder growth.

I mean. I hope they do require economics courses from the people who study global economic politics in your local universities. Evidently war history does it here. I'm tempted to Balassa-Samuel the problems of miscalculated wage claims on the non-tradeable sector in a monetary union to him, but I don't think he'd quite grasp it. It might require deriving.

God I'm stupid today.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 13 Aug 2007, 11:13   #2
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Economics and politics

Blame university over-specialisation; if youre doing one of politics/economics/sociology/[political]-philosophy then you should really be taking lots of classes in the others as well.
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 13 Aug 2007, 15:51   #3
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Economics and politics

Yeah. That's a very valid point. It's really been blown into ackward proportions. From my high seat as an economics student, I've got to say my department is very mathematics orientated, and there are people there who are willing and able to abolish the very reality with an economic model and a little deriving. There's nothing wrong with maths, it's actually very helpful for an economist, and I should pay more attention to it too - but there's a limit where you need to acknowledge the reality and figure out something else than the odd "negotiating stunt" you've read from Sun Tzu or The Peloponnesian wars, especially when you're dealing with a field of expertise not yours. I refered him to the Krugman article (which is a little edgy and offensive to be honest, but has a very valid point), he read it for about two minutes and closed it, stating it's useless. Uncurable.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 13 Aug 2007, 17:23   #4
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Economics and politics

Physics envy is the scourge of academia :/
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 13 Aug 2007, 19:37   #5
Dante Hicks
Clerk
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Economics and politics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Blame university over-specialisation; if youre doing one of politics/economics/sociology/[political]-philosophy then you should really be taking lots of classes in the others as well.
Agreed. But people should be looking for a broad education irrespective of what their degree is in. I'm less sure whether "student of discipline x does something stupid" syndrome says much about their chosen field / subject (or even their education, in the strictest sene). Sure, there might be some academic fields which are so prone to, or suffering from serious conceptual errors at their root that they're just down a blind alley - but I'm not sure about that. There are probably more idiots located in the media studies departments of this world than in the maths departments, but there's certainly clever (and stupid) types in both.

With something like economics, the biggest problems seems to be a far greater degree of confidence than is warranted by most commentators on the subject when discussing complex systems (like the global economy). This leads to a lot of (a) speculation coached as fact and (b) people thinking they can (or should) simplify things more than they can.
Dante Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018