Planetarion Forums - american christians, could you explain???

Perle · 1 Feb 2005, 23:26

ok here is my problem, i was reading the gospel of matthew and read this part of the 5th chapter:

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

so jesus himself, the godman warshipped by the christians is telling us not to swear on anything at all.
In every american movie i have seen, the wittness is always required to swear on the bible before testifying.
Could you please explain how this obvious contradiction of the bible can be practised in the american courtrooms??? its like muslims drinking alcohol while being in a mosque.

I mean I can at least understand other contradictions like being for the death penalty and the "thou shall not kill" part.
There, the american christians interpret the word killing as an illegal killing and the death penalty as a legal killing. Ok , although i dont agree with that interpretation, i can at least understand it.
The above contradiction however, is totally incomprehensable to me.

Have I overlooked something??
hasnt anyone actually read the bible?
is the gospel of mathew contested by the american christians(I cant really imagine that!!)??
are there other christian countries where this swearing custom is practised???

I look forward to the answers, thanks.

Qdeathstar · 1 Feb 2005, 23:56

Its obvious that christians are the biggest bullshitters ever.

JammyJim · 2 Feb 2005, 00:11

maybe because religion has become irrelevant in modern society and its only paid lip service?

i doubt many film makers think 'OH NO WE CANNOT SAY "SHIT"....JESUS SAID WE COULDNT!"

im not entirely sure what your 'getting at tho' unless this is another 'lets bash the west' thread...

Vaio · 2 Feb 2005, 00:13

Perle, get a girlfriend and stop taking things TOO seriously

~Vaio~

Perle · 2 Feb 2005, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammyJim

maybe because religion has become irrelevant in modern society and its only paid lip service?

i doubt many film makers think 'OH NO WE CANNOT SAY "SHIT"....JESUS SAID WE COULDNT!"

im not entirely sure what your 'getting at tho' unless this is another 'lets bash the west' thread...

no, its not about bashing anything. i just wanna know. and i dont think the oath on the bible is limited to american movies. this must be happening in american courtrooms everyday. why else would it be in every movie and every tv show???

JammyJim · 2 Feb 2005, 00:16

this thread proves you have a very limited understanding of western culture....

the seperation of state and religion. its continued dive into irrelvance for most people.

You might be 'Christian' but that simply means you believe in Jesus and God. It doesnt mean you take the word of the bible as sacrosanct. unless you are a 'true believer'.

im christian and tbh i think the bible is simply stories to guide us. not the ACTUAL word of god. it is interpreted by men. written by men and chosen by men to be continued and therefore flawed.

however thats another debate entirely.

roadrunner_0 · 2 Feb 2005, 00:17

i really cant decide who is the worse user

HAL-9000 · 2 Feb 2005, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammyJim

maybe because religion has become irrelevant in modern society and its only paid lip service?

i doubt many film makers think 'OH NO WE CANNOT SAY "SHIT"....JESUS SAID WE COULDNT!"

im not entirely sure what your 'getting at tho' unless this is another 'lets bash the west' thread...

I think he means swear as in making an oath, e.g., "I swear by almight God that I'll never do that again", etc.

Is a good point, to be honest. Swearing on the bible does seem to be a blesphemy that is practiced across the world. I believe the UK swears in jurers and the like in court on the bible, etc. Not sure about other countries.

Indeed, the use of the word 'forswear' proves that this is referring to making an oath rather than using foul language.

Perle · 2 Feb 2005, 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammyJim

this thread proves you have a very limited understanding of western culture....

the seperation of state and religion. its continued dive into irrelvance for most people.

You might be 'Christian' but that simply means you believe in Jesus and God. It doesnt mean you take the word of the bible as sacrosanct. unless you are a 'true believer'.
.

ok , but the statement i have quoted is from the famous Sermon on the Mount. HE SAYS YOU SHOULD NEVER SWEAR!! dont you think that it is a little awkward that they swear on the bible in american courtrooms despite jesus explicitly forbidding it??

JammyJim · 2 Feb 2005, 00:22

no

the bible says that jesus said that. he might not have. noone knows.

tbh i go with the whole theory that if it 'feels bad' then it is. everyone has a universal sense of right and wrong.

As for 'swearing'....most people in the west dont care about the bible, religion or god. its no longer the centre of life

hence its use everywhere.

Phil^ · 2 Feb 2005, 00:22

if you honestly dont have an opinion on american christians, go watch tarrant on tv and wait for some religious american nut to come on, like the 8 yr old preacher or something. THEN come back to gd and tell us what you have decided

Perle · 2 Feb 2005, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

I think he means swear as in making an oath, e.g., "I swear by almight God that I'll never do that again", etc.

Is a good point, to be honest. Swearing on the bible does seem to be a blesphemy that is practiced across the world. I believe the UK swears in jurers and the like in court on the bible, etc. Not sure about other countries.

Indeed, the use of the word 'forswear' proves that this is referring to making an oath rather than using foul language.

yes yes, thats exactly what i mean. he say s do not take an oath. I thought it was clear what i meant by the courtroom example.

Perle · 2 Feb 2005, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammyJim

no

the bible says that jesus said that. he might not have. noone knows.

tbh i go with the whole theory that if it 'feels bad' then it is. everyone has a universal sense of right and wrong.

As for 'swearing'....most people in the west dont care about the bible, religion or god. its no longer the centre of life

hence its use everywhere.

ok, i dont really care if jesus has sais that or not. what i mean is , why take an oath on a book of faith, which explicitly forbids taking an oath.
doesnt that make the oath totally pointless???

Phalon · 2 Feb 2005, 00:25

Perle, as he already tried to point out, it's not meant to be taken literally well... by anyone to be perfectly honest. You'd have to find a pretty devout Christian to argue the point with you.

You don't have to swear on the bible either, just something that you hold in high regard.

HAL-9000 · 2 Feb 2005, 00:26

To be honest I think this is a fairly good question. If it had been brought up by someone more respected in the forums and with a slightly better writing style I have few doubts that there wouldn't be any of these jibes going on at the thread creator. It's better than Perle's previous threads at any rate. + rep coming his way (sorry but I have crap all rep altering power - enjoy the +1!)

demiGOD · 2 Feb 2005, 00:28

jesus ****ing christ, i swear to ****ing god, goddammint!! <--- also these wonderful, creative curse words popularized by the west, right?

im catholic so naturally im already pissed off at the world.. and i really dont care about the bible, so that makes me a catholic non-catholic, swearing under the bible and swearing by heaven and yadiyadiyada is so much identical to a lot of protestant churches who always punchline prayers with "in jesus' name we pray" - even the the catholic sign of the cross, in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost, swearing by the 3 heads we do hundreds of times a day.. so we are all guilty of that passage..

but then again, bible passages were written by mortals who were so high on weed and wine, and was under the train of thought that whatever they wrote, in their drunk mind, were the words of god.. hence the notion "consider your sources.."

Perle · 2 Feb 2005, 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phalon

Perle, as he already tried to point out, it's not meant to be taken literally well... by anyone to be perfectly honest. You'd have to find a pretty devout Christian to argue the point with you.

You don't have to swear on the bible either, just something that you hold in high regard.

I find your explanation unsatisfying. It doesnt really have anything to do with taking it literally or not. we have a book of faith where the main character tells us not to take an oath,. how can you take an oath on such a book??
Why is this custom not contested by anyone at all??

Marilyn Manson · 2 Feb 2005, 00:30

-------->

See that? ^^ That's precisely how much I care about this issue.

queball · 2 Feb 2005, 00:35

The Sermon on the Mount is the one thing I do remember from RE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perle

I mean I can at least understand other contradictions like being for the death penalty and the "thou shall not kill" part.
There, the american christians interpret the word killing as an illegal killing and the death penalty as a legal killing. Ok , although i dont agree with that interpretation, i can at least understand it.

I believe it's well backed up by the original language.

Quote:

Have I overlooked something??
hasnt anyone actually read the bible?
is the gospel of mathew contested by the american christians(I cant really imagine that!!)??
are there other christian countries where this swearing custom is practised???

I look forward to the answers, thanks.

The sermon on the mount isn't exactly a list of commandments - you couldn't have a system of law at all if you obeyed the instruction not to resist evil. From a quick google search, even Jesus swore an oath in court. The point is more that you shouldn't think that getting back at your enemies is good in itself, you shouldn't think of an oath as something that gives you special divine powers, etc.

Marilyn Manson · 2 Feb 2005, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perle

Why is this custom not contested by anyone at all??

But equally, why does no one moan at length as to why Christians do not follow the various ridiculous rules set down to govern a person's lifestyle in Leviticus, for example?

Because the Bible (Christian dogma generally, actually.) is stuffed full of nonsense, self-contradictions and general twaddle, and many people, Christians included, ignore the more ludicrous parts or interpret them for their own ends.

Certainly, very few Christians actually follow the Bible to the exact letter (Although they may believe they do - that's another issue.) - you don't seem to be aware of this.

queball · 2 Feb 2005, 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

I think he means swear as in making an oath, e.g., "I swear by almight God that I'll never do that again", etc.

Is a good point, to be honest. Swearing on the bible does seem to be a blesphemy that is practiced across the world. I believe the UK swears in jurers and the like in court on the bible, etc. Not sure about other countries.

Indeed, the use of the word 'forswear' proves that this is referring to making an oath rather than using foul language.

To forswear one's self is to commit perjury; the relevant bit is "But I say unto you, Swear not at all;", though yes it's about oaths.

HAL-9000 · 2 Feb 2005, 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by queball

To forswear one's self is to commit perjury; the relevant bit is "But I say unto you, Swear not at all;", though yes it's about oaths.

I was trying you point out to JJ that he meant to make an oath, not to use foul language, as I got the impression that he'd misunderstood perle's post. You're right, though.

JammyJim · 2 Feb 2005, 00:42

yes due to the way he phrased the first post i got the 'wrong end of the stick'

Ste · 2 Feb 2005, 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

Its obvious that christians are the biggest bullshitters ever.

What religion is your president again? I've forgotten

Vaio · 2 Feb 2005, 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

What religion is your president again? I've forgotten

Bush is Illuminati, they are beyond religion or something

~Vaio~

Nusselt · 2 Feb 2005, 01:17

why ask american christians?

demiGOD · 2 Feb 2005, 01:31

i thought that i heard you laughing

Perle · 2 Feb 2005, 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nusselt

why ask american christians?

because i have seen the oath on the bible in american movies. I dont know if the oath on the bible is practised in europe as well.

Tactitus · 2 Feb 2005, 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perle

In every american movie i have seen, the wittness is always required to swear on the bible before testifying.
Could you please explain how this obvious contradiction of the bible can be practised in the american courtrooms??? its like muslims drinking alcohol while being in a mosque.

No one is required in swear on a bible in an American courtroom. Traditionally, the bible is offered and you can place your hand on it, or not. If you make your preference known beforehand, the bible will not be offered. In Federal and--I believe--all state proceedings, the use of the term 'swear' is optional (you can say 'I affirm' instead) and you can omit any references to God (e.g., 'so help me God').

It turns out that movies offer a fairly stylized representation of how the legal system really works (actually, that pretty much goes for everything else they show as well).

Qdeathstar · 2 Feb 2005, 06:24

Quote:

What religion is your president again? I've forgotten

He is christian. And by your own discription of him, he can talk a lot of bullshit . Am i rite?

I just happen to think that if it is best for MY country then it is a good idea, even while you europeans might feel its not as good for you when you loose those secret and illegal oil contracts. IE french and german.

meaple · 2 Feb 2005, 06:41

Its because Commies couldn't believe in god or the bible.

Yahwe · 2 Feb 2005, 09:12

Criminal Procedure Code (Strafprozeßordnung, StPO)

Chapter VI Witnesses

Section 57. [Instruction regarding Oath]

Before examination, witnesses shall be admonished to tell the truth and shall be informed that their statements must be made under oath, except as otherwise provided or permitted by law. At the same time instruction shall be given on the importance of the oath, on the possibility to choose between the oath with religious affirmation or without religious affirmation, and on the criminal law consequences of incorrect or incomplete statements.

Germany has the same oath system. see?

meglamaniac · 2 Feb 2005, 11:34

As do we in the UK, last time I heard...
And I also imagine Arabic courts have a similar requirement to take an oath on the Koran in the name of Allah, etc etc etc.

All the "holy books" such as the Bible and the Koran are full of contradictions, and if you tried to take every word literally you'd end up going mad or reasoning that you needed to kill yourself or some such crap. I mean for goodness sake, the Tripitaka (the holy book of Buddhism) is huge - the english translation is around 40 volumes. Can you see Buddhists reading through all that and trying to take it literally?
Religion in modern times is more sensibly viewed as guidence, a set of principles to try and fit your life and actions around to a greater or lesser extent.

MrL_JaKiri · 2 Feb 2005, 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammyJim

tbh i go with the whole theory that if it 'feels bad' then it is. everyone has a universal sense of right and wrong.

Whilst that's a wonderful point to make when discussing the rights of the individual (sort of), when we're dealing with religion it seems fairly pointless because some peoples' moralities break some of the ten commandments which are fairly clearly laid down.

Perle · 2 Feb 2005, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

No one is required in swear on a bible in an American courtroom. Traditionally, the bible is offered and you can place your hand on it, or not. If you make your preference known beforehand, the bible will not be offered. In Federal and--I believe--all state proceedings, the use of the term 'swear' is optional (you can say 'I affirm' instead) and you can omit any references to God (e.g., 'so help me God').

It turns out that movies offer a fairly stylized representation of how the legal system really works (actually, that pretty much goes for everything else they show as well).

ok, i think this is a fairly good explanation.

Thank you!!!