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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 09:06   #1
MrLobster
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Game changing ideas.

Basically all the changes I propose drastically change PA, however I feel them to be better...


1) Remove Restriction of building 1 structure at a time (new limit would be based of current amount of resources). The 150 construction limit would remain.

2) Remove Increased cost of producing next structure.

3) Include base cost of building a structure.

4) Keep time based building of structures (perhaps increase the base time, due to unrestrictive building regulations, see #1).

5) Remove Infrastructure research from techtree, and include a PowerPlant Structure.

6) ResearchTree added to increase powerplant outputs (5%,10%,15%,20%).

7) All structures require power to operate (100GW), apart from the PowerPlant which provides power (1000GW), so for every 10 structures you produce you need 1 power plant.

8) Salvage for lost structures (25% of base cost).

9) Ability to demolish own structures (for small amount of salvage).

10) Ability to switch off structures to conserve power (if say a power plant was destroyed).

11) Planet base research is set to 25.

12) Research Center gives a fixed amount of research points (25 points?).

13) Remove the 3 resource types and use single "Credit" value, and in areas which have 3 items relating to the 3 resource types, reduce to 1 and multiply the output by 3 (where required).

14) Replace HCT with this;-

Code:
"Heavy Cargo Transfers I"	800	"Increased efficiency to mine 100 Credits per Asteroid."
"Heavy Cargo Transfers II"	1600	"Increased efficiency to mine 125 Credits per Asteroid."
"Heavy Cargo Transfers III"	2400	"Increased efficiency to mine 150 Credits per Asteroid."
"Heavy Cargo Transfers IV"	3200	"Increased efficiency to mine 175 Credits per Asteroid."
"Heavy Cargo Transfers V"	4800	"Increased efficiency to mine 200 Credits per Asteroid."
"Heavy Cargo Transfers VI"	7200	"Increased efficiency to mine 225 Credits per Asteroid."
"Heavy Cargo Transfers VII"	9600	"Increased efficiency to mine 250 Credits per Asteroid."
15) All players are given 1x Research Center, 5x mines, 1x Power station, *1x Construction Yard.

EDIT: *Additions...

16) Construction Yard - Increases Construction Units, requires higher CU to build than other structures and also set at a higher price.

17) Building Structures would now be exactly the same as building units, you assign a construction yard a job list and it builds the new structures (basing on total CU needed v CU Output).

18) New jobs can be added to the construction list.

19) Multiple Construction yards can be assign to a job list.

20) You can only build up to the current maximum power output.
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Last edited by MrLobster; 24 Jun 2009 at 11:06.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 09:09   #2
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Ideas here would promote;-

A) The idea of SK's in an attacking fleet class a viable idea.
B) The ability to build up dists and amps at the same time as other structures.
C) Easier to understand game mechanics, better for new players.

So here is my proposed game file for my ideas;-

http://pastebin.com/m181e0331
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 11:20   #3
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Those would make PA pretty much a different game than it is now. Changes almost everything outside of the way battles are fought. :<
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 11:48   #4
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Not really a massive change, you still get all the things that make PA what it is today. Its just the implementation is different.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 12:11   #5
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Re: Game changing ideas.

There's some interesting stuff in here, though I oppose changing the way HCT works.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 13:56   #6
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Why do we need such HCT restrictions? You think people with roid lead would run away without them?

Building multiple constructions at same time sounds like a good option. I am not sure weather we want to target peoples base, as it can kill someones developement completely. But otherewise it does add some dimension to battle, so I am up to try it out.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 15:32   #7
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
Why do we need such HCT restrictions? You think people with roid lead would run away without them?
As they are, the mining research tree poses a dilemma for top players that doesn't exist for newbies and bad players like me. Easy to learn, hard to master.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 16:09   #8
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
As they are, the mining research tree poses a dilemma for top players that doesn't exist for newbies and bad players like me. Easy to learn, hard to master.
The HCT in my version could be spread out more, so the higher ones get less.

My version also means that newbies are not restricted to initing roids, but are limited to what they get out of them.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 16:12   #9
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
The HCT in my version could be spread out more, so the higher ones get less.

My version also means that newbies are not restricted to initing roids, but are limited to what they get out of them.
What, so they can blow all their resources on asteroids with no guidance on what is a safer number to keep without getting attacked. As they currently are, HCT provides a pretty reasonable guide for newer players on the amount of roids per tech level they are unlikely to get multi-waved for.

Edit: I realised when I posted this it was almost completely negative, and I need to add that I lot of the ideas you have here are actually pretty well thought through. On my first view the traditional 'change-is-bad' gag reflex hit me, but once I actually bothered to consider them most of the ideas make a great deal of sense. Some don't quite fit, and I think thats what the occasional negative response is getting at.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 17:44   #10
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
The HCT in my version could be spread out more, so the higher ones get less.

My version also means that newbies are not restricted to initing roids, but are limited to what they get out of them.
And as such hurts them more than anyone else. You are misunderstanding me though, I'm not concerned that you failed to balance it correctly, I oppose (that part of) your suggestion entirely. It's a bad idea, no matter how you set the parameters.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 20:26   #11
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
What, so they can blow all their resources on asteroids with no guidance on what is a safer number to keep without getting attacked. As they currently are, HCT provides a pretty reasonable guide for newer players on the amount of roids per tech level they are unlikely to get multi-waved for.

Edit: I realised when I posted this it was almost completely negative, and I need to add that I lot of the ideas you have here are actually pretty well thought through. On my first view the traditional 'change-is-bad' gag reflex hit me, but once I actually bothered to consider them most of the ideas make a great deal of sense. Some don't quite fit, and I think thats what the occasional negative response is getting at.
So in you first paragraph, the idea behind HCT is to show a new player how many roids to init?

I actually thought it was to slow down expansion.

Currently there is nothing to stop a new player initing 1000 roids, apart from the fact they get nothing from most of the roids they inited.

If your going to instruct a new player on the optimum level of roids to init, then include quests.
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Unread 24 Jun 2009, 23:24   #12
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Re: Game changing ideas.

its kinda like a core mining swing on HCT. it could work out nice, or it could work out to be utter crap (not sure how difficult it would be to implement). have you crunched any numbers on it MrL? like output with that compared to how it is now?
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 00:25   #13
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Re: Game changing ideas.

I presume crunch numbers on my new HCT idea...

HCT Level 1
Old: 200 Roids (250) = 50000 Credits (Max Limit)
New: 200 Roids (100) = 20000 Credits

HCT Level 2
Old: 300 Roids (250) = 75000 Credits (Max Limit)
New: 300 Roids (125) = 37500 Credits

HCT Level 3
Old: 500 Roids (250) = 125000 Credits (Max Limit)
New: 500 Roids (150) = 75000 Credits

HCT Level 4
Old: 750 Roids (250) = 187,500 Credits (Max Limit)
New: 750 Roids (175) = 131,250 Credits

HCT Level 5
Old: 1000 Roids (250) = 250,000 Credits (Max Limit)
New: 1000 Roids (200) = 200,000 Credits

HCT Level 6
Old: 1250 Roids (250) = 312,500 (Max Limit)
New: 1250 Roids (225) = 281,250 Credits

HCT Level 7
Old: 1500 Roids (250) = 375,000 (Max Limit)
New: 1500 Roids (250) = 375,000 Credits

So these figures are based on the startup of a new planet, but as my version you can go above the current roid limit.

Example:

HCT Level 4
Old: 750 Roids (250) = 187,500 Credits (Max Limit)
New: 1500 Roids (175) = 262,500 Credits

This also means that smaller players can get a little bit more res, even if they become a bigger target.

To get max Credits per Roid would take on average 11 days of pure research.

But tbh I expect people to disagree with a changed HCT, because of what is already available.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 06:23   #14
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Re: Game changing ideas.

out of all of those ideas up there, thats the one i like the best. its a way to make your planet more efficient persay, while being able to control how big you get yourself.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 08:10   #15
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Oh right, that's another reason I don't like that particular part of the suggestion: it's FCs v2.0.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 10:28   #16
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Re: Game changing ideas.

I dont see how they can compare Mz, FC gives a percentage bonus, my HCT idea is only 7 or so researchs, which has you neglecting other areas of research if you dedicate to that area alone.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 11:23   #17
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
I dont see how they can compare Mz
I'll show you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
FC gives a percentage bonus
Every FC give 0.5% extra income on top of your base income. Each of your HCT researches gives 25% extra income on top of your base income.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
my HCT idea is only 7 or so researchs, which has you neglecting other areas of research if you dedicate to that area alone.
While you're building FCs, you're not building amps, dists, factories. While you're researching HCT, you're not getting FA, infra or hulls.

I still haven't seen a reason why this should be implemented, while I have given two good reasons why it shouldn't (easy to learn, hard to master and similarity with FCs).
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 11:40   #18
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I have given two good reasons why it shouldn't (easy to learn, hard to master and similarity with FCs).
Whilst I agree with you that it's not a great idea, "easy to learn, hard to master" is not a good reason why it shouldn't be implemented - a lot of the most successful games use exactly that formula. Easy to learn...and that's it, tends to see people getting bored and moving on. Hard to learn is likely to discourage people from making the effort to get into it. PA could use a lot more of the "easy to learn, hard to master" philosophy if it wants to grow.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 12:15   #19
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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Whilst I agree with you that it's not a great idea, "easy to learn, hard to master" is not a good reason why it shouldn't be implemented - a lot of the most successful games use exactly that formula. Easy to learn...and that's it, tends to see people getting bored and moving on. Hard to learn is likely to discourage people from making the effort to get into it. PA could use a lot more of the "easy to learn, hard to master" philosophy if it wants to grow.
You are misunderstanding mz. He is saying that the currently system already provides 'easy to learn, hard to master'.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 12:39   #20
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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While you're building FCs, you're not building amps, dists, factories. While you're researching HCT, you're not getting FA, infra or hulls.
Ah your reasoning is because your thinking of current mechanics of building 1 structure at a time. My ideas included building as many structures as you wanted.

Building All FC's hurts your planet (currently), but not as much as missing research areas.

I'm also not sure why we have to have the "easy to learn, hard to master.." policy, do we need to limit the planets who choose to have a higher roid count?

Ok so you want 2 reasons for the HCT idea...

1) New players can better understand the limits of what their planets resources produce.

2) You dont need 2 reasons...
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 13:30   #21
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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I'm also not sure why we have to have the "easy to learn, hard to master.." policy, do we need to limit the planets who choose to have a higher roid count?
Let me answer the latter part of the question first, as it is not really related to your first question: Limiting planets with higher roid counts in the way it currently is also prevents early round stagnation since you cannot simply accumulate 2000 roids early on and get the full bonus of them right away. It makes exponential growth being less exponential, so to say. At the start, that is.

Now, on to the first part. I am just going to link you to this blog posting as it lays out the concept pretty well.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 14:09   #22
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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Ok so you want 2 reasons for the HCT idea...

1) New players can better understand the limits of what their planets resources produce.

2) You dont need 2 reasons...
You're just offering an opinion with no justification here. I don't agree that it's any easier to understand than the current HCT, and it's likely to encourage bad habits of initiating too many roids too soon.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 14:27   #23
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Re: Game changing ideas.

HCT was brought in specifically to slow down the growth of the bigger planets - that is its sole function.

All of these proposals have two things in common - they're all unnecessary and don't appear to add anything to the game.

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Basically all the changes I propose drastically change PA, however I feel them to be better...
That just about sums it up.

Before we propose drastic changes we really need to demonstrate the intended benefits.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 14:42   #24
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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You're just offering an opinion with no justification here. I don't agree that it's any easier to understand than the current HCT, and it's likely to encourage bad habits of initiating too many roids too soon.
You cant say the HCT is a guide to initing roids, as there isnt anyway to stop a new player initing 1000 roids, even though they dont get the resources for 800-900 of them.

Including a few quests items, could help them in that direction.

But as with all games, people need to learn, rather than led through.
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Unread 25 Jun 2009, 16:25   #25
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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You cant say the HCT is a guide to initing roids, as there isnt anyway to stop a new player initing 1000 roids, even though they dont get the resources for 800-900 of them.

Including a few quests items, could help them in that direction.

But as with all games, people need to learn, rather than led through.
Stopping people doing something sucks. I didn't say I wanted that to happen, I said the current system guides new players to a safer level of roidcount, unlike your proposal. Nothing stops someone doing something stupid, but the vast majority of players can read and understand that going over their mining limit is a fairly pointless move.

Despite that, the other comments about the reason HCT exists are correct. It was implemented to slow growth and you have yet to produce any sort of reasoning to counter this.

If i were you I'd concentrate on illustrating the benefits of the other parts of my proposal rather than continuing on this one point which wasn't thought through properly.
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Unread 26 Jun 2009, 18:04   #26
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Ok ignoring the debate on HCT for a second, what about the other ideas? any problems that can be foreseen?
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Unread 26 Jun 2009, 19:21   #27
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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1) Remove Restriction of building 1 structure at a time (new limit would be based of current amount of resources). The 150 construction limit would remain.

2) Remove Increased cost of producing next structure.

3) Include base cost of building a structure.

4) Keep time based building of structures (perhaps increase the base time, due to unrestrictive building regulations, see #1).

20) You can only build up to the current maximum power output.
Good ideas.

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5) Remove Infrastructure research from techtree, and include a PowerPlant Structure.

6) ResearchTree added to increase powerplant outputs (5%,10%,15%,20%).

7) All structures require power to operate (100GW), apart from the PowerPlant which provides power (1000GW), so for every 10 structures you produce you need 1 power plant.

10) Ability to switch off structures to conserve power (if say a power plant was destroyed).
Sounds interesting. What are you trying to achieve?

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8) Salvage for lost structures (25% of base cost).
Meaningless, constructions are nearly free (compared to ships).

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
9) Ability to demolish own structures (for small amount of salvage).
This could make the late game more interesting, but only if there are strategies that involve demolishing your constructions at certain points in the game. At the moment, I don't see any.

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
11) Planet base research is set to 25.

12) Research Center gives a fixed amount of research points (25 points?).
Excellent idea, more links between research and constructions. This does make me wonder (again) why you want to get rid of infra though.

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13) Remove the 3 resource types and use single "Credit" value, and in areas which have 3 items relating to the 3 resource types, reduce to 1 and multiply the output by 3 (where required).
Makes sense.

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15) All players are given 1x Research Center, 5x mines, 1x Power station, *1x Construction Yard.
Why?

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Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
16) Construction Yard - Increases Construction Units, requires higher CU to build than other structures and also set at a higher price.
I would prefer seeing a research influence this.

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17) Building Structures would now be exactly the same as building units, you assign a construction yard a job list and it builds the new structures (basing on total CU needed v CU Output).

18) New jobs can be added to the construction list.

19) Multiple Construction yards can be assign to a job list.
Too many unknowns, which makes me somewhat uncomfortable about this idea.
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Unread 26 Jun 2009, 20:32   #28
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Regarding #15 (All players are given 1x Research Center, 5x mines, 1x Power station, *1x Construction Yard).

Ah I did forget to mention that I wanted to reduce most areas default starting values.

However giving a base amount is better, incase all your constructions are killed off.

Base planet Values :-

Power: 1000GW (Equal to 1 power station).
Planet Income: 3000 Credits (currently 1000 of each resource).
Output CU: 100 Points (equal to a construction yard).
Output RU: 25 points.
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 14:31   #29
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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As they are, the mining research tree poses a dilemma for top players that doesn't exist for newbies and bad players like me. Easy to learn, hard to master.
Rather make it harder to get those mines, do not punish the players who managed to steal em.

Also it does effect the new player aswell, there isnt even any good notice when u are losing part of your mining, nor the research are clear enough u need such bs for mining and growing.
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 15:59   #30
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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Rather make it harder to get those mines, do not punish the players who managed to steal em.

Also it does effect the new player aswell, there isnt even any good notice when u are losing part of your mining, nor the research are clear enough u need such bs for mining and growing.
In other words: Maximize the potential for exponential growth while at the same minimize the influx of new roids into the universe? If that is what you wanted to say there, then please get off the internet. That's just a horrible suggestion and you should know for yourself why that is the case.
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 16:26   #31
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Re: Game changing ideas.

And you are saying as exaggerating? as you are that you should get punished for winning a battle Its imo just good if the ones playing well are found on top. Don't u think so aswell?
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 17:44   #32
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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And you are saying as exaggerating? as you are that you should get punished for winning a battle Its imo just good if the ones playing well are found on top. Don't u think so aswell?
Maybe you want to elaborate your definition of 'playing well'. Ultimately the top spot is the reward, as such if you are not up there you did not 'play well' at all.

Apart from that the top spots should be for those which manage to dominate over the course of a complete round, and such a round takes a couple of weeks to complete, so you don't want a situation where the top spots are decided right after two weeks already.
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 17:47   #33
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Re: Game changing ideas.

But all its really doing is slowing the stagnation, not stopping it.
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 18:40   #34
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Re: Game changing ideas.

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But all its really doing is slowing the stagnation, not stopping it.
That is because stopping stagnation requires you to remove any potential for getting into a leading position. Which in turn is not wanted because it removes the option for rankings and domination. And that's somewhat taking the competition away ;-)

Anyway, let me reply to your original suggestions as I never took the time to do that so far, despite wanting to. The main issue that I have with most of your suggestions is the simple fact that they either seem pretty randomly chosen without a bigger vision behind, or the big picture you had in mind with this was simply to trade depth in gameplay (read: strategic decisions) against a speed & activity race. Let me elaborate on this in a sort-of bullet point list style.
  • Allowing to build multiple constructions at once is taking away my decisions of weighting the importance of the order of constructions I build, especially when this is combined with fixed prices. This effect is enforced by removing the infrastructure research.
  • Switching research labs to something that gives you a fixed amount of RP instead of an amount of RP relative to the overall availability removes the player's decision of weighting importance of research for his/her playing style.
  • Reducing the amount of resources from 3 to 2 where one of those can only be produced directly on your planet might increase the demand for structure killing in order to win a war, but that's about it. Admittedly, the overall idea of changing resources away from m/c/e to something else is not bad, but the way it's presented here it simply does not make much sense.
  • The ideas are not thought through. Why can I disable construction? Do I need to have power for my factories in order to produce ships? Do all constructions use the same amount of power?
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 19:15   #35
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Aparently constructing eats part of your tickly income, hence you might want to stop it for other needs.

Basicly how I see it the game gets some more depth when you put more focus on building your planet, not fleet only. Also you will allow targeting of the base structures to bring something more to battle aswell. You change it from keys to open locks to something more alive version, that does not nessesary remove any strategical views. You balance out your base growth and your fleet growth. You can more freely deside what stuff you need and when, so it makes you work on your strategy and you can bring it to new dimensions, rather than wait for x ticks and scan around to see weather eta -1 or bs comes first. As the strategies are limited now.

As the topic said, the idea was to change the game, its up to peoples favours weather the changes are good or bad.

My point above was that you dont need to restrict already gained goods, how ever we should focus on how the goods are gained. Ie. attacking proper alliances, proper sized targets.

I see why such limits (HCT/structure) are made, but how hard it would be to try few rounds without em, see if political and game enviroment has changed to live without em. Atleast I find them very frustrating and dull as they do limit the game play of less actives aswell.

If the ideas arent tought thrue, thats why they get posted thrue here and be judged and re-introduced to forms that can be used. Atleast personally I wouldnt bother to work on every small detail before hearing will it be worth my time.
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Unread 1 Jul 2009, 19:57   #36
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Re: Game changing ideas.

Most of the ideas are a way to ease in new players.

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Allowing to build multiple constructions at once is taking away my decisions of weighting the importance of the order of constructions I build, especially when this is combined with fixed prices. This effect is enforced by removing the infrastructure research.
Its a unreasonable restriction that has no releveance to real life (basically RL is land limited), and real life relevence is the basis for any new starter. Power stations are the replacement for the Infrastucture Tree, easier to understand for the new player.

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Switching research labs to something that gives you a fixed amount of RP instead of an amount of RP relative to the overall availability removes the player's decision of weighting importance of research for his/her playing style.
Actually I believe that most peoples first structure is the research lab, so importance means nothing, its just the way it goes. Giving a fixed value means that even after the 20th non Lab structure, players get the same benefits from building a lab, this would help new players too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Reducing the amount of resources from 3 to 2 where one of those can only be produced directly on your planet might increase the demand for structure killing in order to win a war, but that's about it. Admittedly, the overall idea of changing resources away from m/c/e to something else is not bad, but the way it's presented here it simply does not make much sense.
I didnt give a huge explanation as to the reason of a single value, as its been discussed a huge amount before (most things now take equal amounts of each resource).

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Why can I disable construction?
It gives 1 reason at the end of #10 why you would need to disable constructions.

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Do I need to have power for my factories in order to produce ships?
Which falls back to the previous question, yes.

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Do all constructions use the same amount of power?
http://pastebin.com/m181e0331 <-- look at structures section, this was posted straight after my first post.
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