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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 19:53   #1
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[welsh question]

I know this has been asked often in the real world, so I am going to ask here. Why is it that there are so many ppls in Wales; Country next to England for all you overseas GD`ers; who have the Sir name "Jones". The letter "J" does not even appear in the Welsh alphabet!?! Can anyone explain this? I don`t know the answer to this.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 20:00   #2
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Re: [welsh question]

yes and why are so many called 'Catherina Zeta'.


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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 20:37   #3
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Re: [welsh question]

A mixture of inbreeding and anglicisation.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 21:35   #4
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Re: [welsh question]

I would think that Jones is the english version of the surname, as we generally tend to take over most things when we annex a country.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 21:37   #5
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious
I would think that Jones is the english version of the surname, as we generally tend to take over most things when we annex a country.
to be fair there was no country to annex.

wales is a post conquest creation
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 21:40   #6
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Re: [welsh question]

how far back are we going Yahwe?

Coz i only remember the last 24 years :/

Come to think of it...where the bl**dy hell did Wales come from in the first place?
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 22:05   #7
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious
how far back are we going Yahwe?
As a name (Cymry) the 7th century, but it was used to describe many peoples of "celtic" stock in Britain ('Cumbria' is derived from the same word). As a country, not until it was overrun by (what are now) the English, as it was made up of various kingdoms at the time.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 22:07   #8
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Re: [welsh question]

John, in it's various forms (Ieuan, amongst other things, in Wales) is a pretty common first name, and traditionally, the surname Jones meant 'Son of John'. I would imagine that welsh people were at some time known as 'Ieuans', and over time it has been anglicised.

Your use of semi-colons as parentheses is, to say the least, interesting.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 22:11   #9
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Re: [welsh question]

The surname Jones is a patronymic name meaning "son of John (God has favored or gift of God)."

The forename Johannes was borrowed in the Roman period and became Ieuan in Welsh. This is pronounced something like Y-eye-an. When permanent surnames were adopted in Wales, Ieuan sometimes became Jones and sometimes Evans. A document of 1533 names Thomas ap Ieuan ap David ap Blethyn alias Thomas Jones. In the mediaeval period, John was borrowed and in time this became used as a surname, sometimes unchanged, sometimes in the style Jones. The forename John is known to have been used in Wales in the thirteenth century.

http://genealogy.about.com/library/s...name-JONES.htm
http://www.data-wales.co.uk/jones.htm


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Unread 22 Sep 2006, 01:35   #10
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Re: [welsh question]

^ right on the money, although John can also be Ioan, Sión, Sionyn or Sioni (as a point of no interest whatsoever I should imagine)
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 07:03   #11
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Re: [welsh question]

So the Welsh stole the "J" and used it shamlessly as if it were there own.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 07:30   #12
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Re: [welsh question]

I don`t think so. "J" as in "John" I guess. My own name means "John" also, likewise, Ian, Sean, Ivan etc..
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 17:54   #13
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
So the Welsh stole the "J" and used it shamlessly as if it were there own.

No, I'd say it more likely occured during the time where the English decided it was illegal to speak Welsh. I'm not sure when this was brought into effect, but it was illegal until sometime in the 1950s.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 19:36   #14
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
No, I'd say it more likely occured during the time where the English decided it was illegal to speak Welsh. I'm not sure when this was brought into effect, but it was illegal until sometime in the 1950s.
It's never been illegal to speak Welsh. The language was, however, only given equal status in law to English in 1993.

Although there are no polyglot Welsh speakers in Wales (according to the last census) the language is spoken by 21% of the population. Judging by my own experience a far higher percentage can understand spoken Welsh even if they are unable to speak it.

As for nicking J from the English alphabet .... it is creeping in to the language where English words are 'translated' into Welsh. Garaj (garage) is a good example of this. Many modern 'Welsh' words are the same as English
Car (Car) and many others are similar enough for non-Welsh speakers to recognise them Ffrind (Friend) or Tacsi (Taxi).

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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 19:43   #15
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitc
Garaj (garage) is a good example of this. Many modern 'Welsh' words are the same as English
That word doesn't exist. I can speak Welsh. I also have a Welsh to English dictionary which says:

Garage, n, modurdy, garai, modurfa

Also, my grandparents speak Welsh as their first language, and they assure me that to was illegal to speak Welsh - they were forced to speak English in public, even in school.

Isn't a polyglot somebody who is multi-lingual? If this is true, don't you think there's at least one person who can speak English and Welsh/French/German/Spanish? Hell, my french teacher could also speak Spanish and German fluently.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 20:03   #16
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
That word doesn't exist. I can speak Welsh. I also have a Welsh to English dictionary which says:

Garage, n, modurdy, garai, modurfa

Also, my grandparents speak Welsh as their first language, and they assure me that to was illegal to speak Welsh.

edit: Isn't a polyglot somebody who is multi-lingual?

To respond,

1) Funny that the Welsh dept of Lampeter Uni feel the word does exist. The plural is Garejys.

2) My grandmother didn't learn English until she was taught it at school FFS! She was born in 1912, so that puts her in the time period YOU claim the language was illegal. In addition she told me that English was never spoken by anybody in the village she grew up in. It was a legal requirement that Welsh children learn English, that doesn't make Welsh illegal as a spoken language.

3) You're right. I meant monoglot.

Isn't it great that the Welsh are so passionate about their language we're prepared to argue about the spelling of a word?
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 20:10   #17
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
Also, my grandparents speak Welsh as their first language, and they assure me that to was illegal to speak Welsh.
I highly doubt that it was ever illegal to speak Welsh in general terms. Certainly the wiki entry on the Welsh language doesn't mention it that I can see, and a quick google doesn't turn up anything to support that either. It's possible that in specific contexts English might have been insited upon (e.g. in courts before the 1967 Welsh Language Act) but that's not really the same as it being "illegal" to speak it.

There is some stuff on the BBC site which indicates some organised prejudice against Welsh use in schools earlier on, but again it wasn't illegal. As Mitc notes, the insistence on English being taught isn't quite the same as banning Welsh either.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 20:23   #18
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Re: [welsh question]

Is it perhaps slang then? As I've never come across that word - I could phone somebody who would know, but tbh, I'm not that bothered, as I'm sure you're not either etc.

A quick google search reveals...

Less than one hundred years ago the Welsh language was outlawed in Government and Education. Today, there are Welsh schools and all government departments dealing with Wales work in both English and Welsh.
[http://www.eliamep.gr/eliamep/files/...ring_2001.pdf]

Even though the English outlawed the Welsh language, it lived on through the singing, reciting and storytelling.
[http://www.betws-y-coed.net/aboutus.htm]

Welsh language was only (nearly) exterminated when the English outlawed it in the 19th century--not before, not even after Gwynedd fell. Same with Irish and Scots Gaelic. Since then, they are (however slowly) making a comback.
[http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack.../whatnot.html]

The native language of Welsh was outlawed by it's English overlords, yet still survived. Some by ancient texts such as the Mabogineon, also by religious tracts and secret writings. Today, there is a resurgence of pride in the native language, and several radio and television stations broadcast in the language.
[http://www.greendragonartist.com/BIwales.htm]

as
a result of the 1536 Act of Union - when Wales officially became part of the
United Kingdom - the use of the Welsh language was banned from public life,
including churches. Scholars and church leaders at the time, worried about
the demise of the Welsh language, set about translating the Bible and the
Book of Common Prayer so that people could read them at home in their mother tongue.

[http://www.wfn.org/2003/07/msg00073.html]

And I'm sure there's plenty more to boot.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 20:30   #19
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
the Welsh language was outlawed in Government and Education. Today, there are Welsh schools and all government departments dealing with Wales work in both English and Welsh.[/i]
[http://www.eliamep.gr/eliamep/files/...ring_2001.pdf]
I've covered this point but restricting something in government and education is not the same it being illegal. You probably can't ask for proceedings in UK courts to be held in Klingon, but that doesn't mean the government have banned the language.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 21:16   #20
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Re: [welsh question]

I didnt see the post you made before I posted tbh. But I was just looking to justify the point my grandparents told me a while ago. there doesn't seem to be much available on google, but I'm sure the whole story is on the internet somewhere.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 23:37   #21
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Re: [welsh question]

it was never illegal to speak welsh.

to claim otherwise is to distort the truth for political purposes creating the illusion that there is welsh unity under an oppressive english state. It's rubbish.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 00:39   #22
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Re: [welsh question]

Yes, that's exactly right - I'm a political activist trying to overthrow England.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 00:50   #23
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Re: [welsh question]

with all due respect I don't need to justify the reason for your mistake.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 01:24   #24
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Re: [welsh question]

If the majority of people on Wales are called Jones, I can only hoper that Zeta Jones is an anomaly, because if they're all like her, Cardiff muist be the biggest brothel in the world.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:15   #25
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Re: [welsh question]

your right about it not being illegal .. but it might as well have been ..

my mums welsh .. use of the welsh language was not just not encouraged but punishable in her school. They had to use english .. were taught to write only in english so now my mum barely remembers any welsh, and cannot write it at all, i find that sad, her heritage was taken away from her, tho she did teach me to count to ten in welsh, i just remember, 1 2 and 3 now.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:29   #26
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
your right about it not being illegal .. but it might as well have been ..

my mums welsh .. use of the welsh language was not just not encouraged but punishable in her school. They had to use english .. were taught to write only in english so now my mum barely remembers any welsh, and cannot write it at all, i find that sad, her heritage was taken away from her, tho she did teach me to count to ten in welsh, i just remember, 1 2 and 3 now.
School is not the world.

Try speaking latin in a chemistry lesson and you won't be allowed. You can't even speak latin in a court room.

That's because of efficiency and clarity. It's not illegal. It's practicle
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:39   #27
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Try speaking latin in a chemistry lesson and you won't be allowed. You can't even speak latin in a court room.

That's because of efficiency and clarity. It's not illegal. It's practicle
So when somebody was punished for speaking the language they had been speaking since birth (in this instance) how would they justify doing this?

Surely even if it were not technically illegal it would be as close to the line as you could possibly take it.

Quite frankly, I don't feel particularly strongly about this issue, but also don't see how it could be called anything but illegal?
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:46   #28
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
So when somebody was punished for speaking the language they had been speaking since birth (in this instance) how would they justify doing this?
In school I was punished for swearing. I tried to argue that I'd been swearing for years but somehow I never got let off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
Surely even if it were not technically illegal it would be as close to the line as you could possibly take it.
No.

Who are 'they'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
Quite frankly, I don't feel particularly strongly about this issue, but also don't see how it could be called anything but illegal?
Because the word illegal means something.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:48   #29
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Re: [welsh question]

I'm just asking what you would call it?
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:49   #30
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
I'm just asking what you would call it?
call people being made to speak one language during lessons while a child at school?

School rules.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:52   #31
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Re: [welsh question]

But these school rules were put into place all of a sudden for a reason. I for one can't think of anything sensible that would justify this. It wasn't just a case of in lessons, but also in the schoolyard.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 02:56   #32
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
But these school rules were put into place all of a sudden for a reason. I for one can't think of anything sensible that would justify this. It wasn't just a case of in lessons, but also in the schoolyard.
you are squirming.

the definition of squirming is "having a non-issue that you keep repeating despite the fact that every time you have mentioned the issue before you have been proved wrong on the facts".

I am sorry if I upset you because I ruined an enjoyable lie with the truth. But how long are you going to go on?
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 03:07   #33
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Re: [welsh question]

I was attempting to clarify something that you didn't understand fully. I don't understand exactly went on either, hence it being a discussion. I am however telling you what I percieve to be the truth - if you can disprove it infallibly then by all means I'll accept your point, but you have said nothing to prove your own statements either.

If you want to try and discredit my point then please continue - but there's nothing particularly enjoyable about this discussion worth lying about.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 03:12   #34
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It's practicle
*practical
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 03:12   #35
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
I was attempting to clarify something that you didn't understand fully. I don't understand exactly went on either, hence it being a discussion. I am however telling you what I percieve to be the truth - if you can disprove it infallibly then by all means I'll accept your point, but you have said nothing to prove your own statements either.

If you want to try and discredit my point then please continue - but there's nothing particularly enjoyable about this discussion worth lying about.
in my world the person proposing the idea provides the evidence.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 03:22   #36
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Re: [welsh question]

Are we just playing the "he who posts last, wins" game here? I've already posted the extremly limited amount of "evidence" that I could find googling simple phrases and what I remember my grandparents telling me. Neither you nor I can claim to have found irrefutable proof either way so basically it comes down to opinion and loosely formed arguments. (Cue "my opinion is worth more than yours" card)
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 03:28   #37
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshy
Are we just playing the "he who posts last, wins" game here? I've already posted the extremly limited amount of "evidence" that I could find googling simple phrases and what I remember my grandparents telling me. Neither you nor I can claim to have found irrefutable proof either way so basically it comes down to opinion and loosely formed arguments. (Cue "my opinion is worth more than yours" card)
IF you want to claim that something is illegal then you do one of the following:

A) Post the name of the Statute (Act) which states that it is llegal
B) Post the name of the case whereby someone was prosecuted or sued for doing it.

BECAUSE when you don't do that you may as well claim that "calling cheese a pet is illegal" or "calling chairs pudding is illegal". I can't give you evidence and sources to show that calling cheese a pet IS NOT ILLEGAL because no one would waste their time writing that statute or making that case.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 03:32   #38
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Re: [welsh question]

If the evil English monarchy had outlawed Welsh i doubt they would have let parliament pass a bill to allow the production of a Welsh-language bible in the 17th century.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 10:46   #39
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apothos
If the evil English monarchy had outlawed Welsh i doubt they would have let parliament pass a bill to allow the production of a Welsh-language bible in the 17th century.
The 1536 and 1542 Acts of Union
The passing of the 1536 and 1542 Acts of Union brought a significant change in the official use of Welsh, and the language would not be used as an official language again until after the passing of the 1942 Welsh Courts Act – four hundred years later.

The purpose of the Acts of Union was to make Wales part of England, and therefore English became the official language of business and administration in Wales. Following the Acts it was not possible for any monolingual Welsh speaker to hold official office in Wales, and although the language was not banned, it lost its status, and brought with it centuries of steady linguistic decline.

The Welsh Bible
Welsh would have been in grave danger during the Tudor Period if the Bible had not been translated into the language. Bishop William Morgan of Llanrhaedr ym Mochnant’s translation which appeared in 1588, helped to boost the language.

As Wales was a country dominated by religion, which played a pivotal role in people's lives, the Bible allowed Welsh to remain as the language of the church and religion. English may have been the official language of Wales, but the Bible helped to safeguard the future of the Welsh language for many centuries.
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 16:20   #40
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
your right about it not being illegal .. but it might as well have been ..

my mums welsh .. use of the welsh language was not just not encouraged but punishable in her school. They had to use english .. were taught to write only in english so now my mum barely remembers any welsh, and cannot write it at all, i find that sad, her heritage was taken away from her, tho she did teach me to count to ten in welsh, i just remember, 1 2 and 3 now.
pls note this the charmer that gave me a red blob for *
it is not acceptable to just quote something. you must make a comment.*

read the whole thread :P
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Unread 25 Sep 2006, 18:18   #41
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Re: [welsh question]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
If the majority of people on Wales are called Jones, I can only hoper that Zeta Jones is an anomaly, because if they're all like her, Cardiff muist be the biggest brothel in the world.
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