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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 21:32   #1
SYMM
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Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

There was an initiative set up in Canada in 1994 whereby a group of people would join together to help rehabilitate (and to some extent monitor the bahaviour of) convicted sex offenders upon their release.
More recently, there have been projects set up in the UK doing the same thing. There was an article in today's G2[1] which included comments from some of the volunteers, and it made me think about whether I'd be able to contribute to such a project (assuming that the general apathy towards volunteering has been overcome).
There are two main criteria (maybe three) that I think would need to be met:
Firstly, and probably the most important, is whether you think you'd have the people skills (motivation, questioning etc.) to actually be helpful to the 'core member'. It is going to be a lot more demanding than helping plant trees.
Secondly, and perhaps thirdly, would you be able to bring yourself to help such a person? And, if you could, would you care what other people thought? Would you, for example, go into the specifics if you were including it on a CV?

Whilst at university, I was quite havily involved in volunteering projects involving the motivation of 'disadvantaged' people, and while I was never entirely convinced that I was being helpful, the feedback I got from the co-ordinators was rather good (I even won an award ), so with training I'm fairly sure I could do a good job.

I happen to think that rehabilitation is often preferable to punishment, and agree with the campaign's motto of 'no more victims', and so I'd seriously consider becoming involved in a year or two when my own life is a bit more settled (we're ignoring the apathy, remember?)

Most people are liberal enough that I'd be fairly sure they wouldn't care/mind what I was doing, however I'm not convinced that going into details with people for who first impression matters (i.e. the CV) would be a good idea. It would be simple enough to gloss over the details, while still being able to include the pertinent/positive information, and the chance that it would be a tabloid-reader on the other end is fairly high.

There are a couple of links to some sites with more information below.

[1] http://society.guardian.co.uk/crimea...817574,00.html
[2] http://www.ccjf.org/what/circles.html
[3] [PDF] http://www.voma.org/docs/dyck.pdf
[4] http://www.stjohnsottawa.ca/pages/cosa.html
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 21:48   #2
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
Firstly, and probably the most important, is whether you think you'd have the people skills (motivation, questioning etc.) to actually be helpful to the 'core member'.
Possibly not. It depends on the context and how structured the process was. In a very free and open process I'd probably find it difficult to strike up conversation given I lack any ability to do small talk. If I had to talk about something I'd probably be fine (e.g. if it was training someone how to do something).
Quote:
Secondly, and perhaps thirdly, would you be able to bring yourself to help such a person?
Yes, although it depends on the nature of the crime I guess, and how "rehabilitated" they seemed to be (although I realise that's kind of the point of the exercise).

As for telling other people about it, I think I'd probably just I was helping ex-offenders. I don't see why you'd need to go into specifics with other people.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 22:32   #3
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

I don't think that it is necessary for the rehabilitators to know the nature of their client's crime, although I suppose it is public information. I don't understand why it would require a seperate effort from rehabilitating other criminals. I'm sure people don't want drug dealers, murderers, thieves, and rapists around children either.

In any case I don't see a difference. Of course, a 'personal' relationship between me and the convicted sex offender will be an impossibility. This sort of employment would require a professional and the nature of professionalism is that one puts aside personal feelings and focuses on performance, duty and outcomes.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 22:42   #4
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by s|k
I'm sure people don't want drug dealers, murderers, thieves, and rapists around children either.
I doubt it would be your first choice for a neighbour, but I'd imagine if you found out that a former bank robber lived next door you'd not be particularly worried they were going to abduct/harm your kid.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:02   #5
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I doubt it would be your first choice for a neighbour, but I'd imagine if you found out that a former bank robber lived next door you'd not be particularly worried they were going to abduct/harm your kid.

yeah but id be worried they'd harm me (unless we're talking about the non violent type of bank robber), the type of neighbour that would irritate/cause fear is a subjective thing, im quite sure the level of degeneracy that you and your friends partake in would reduce the level of 'neighbourlyness' you presented, if i found out a child sex offender was living next door i wouldn't automatically chain my nonexistent children to the radiator, if they presented a real threat they'd probably still be in prison. The terms that are used to label individuals are so broad as to be nearly meaningless id much rather have Graham Rix as a neighbour than the now dead boss of enron. When someone says 'child sex offender' they normally allude to an abducting rapist, taking into account the very very low level of such crimes and the likelyhood that anyone who was convicted of such a crime would be kept in prison till they no longer presented a threat and within the child rape stats the number of people who are family members; i can honestly say in all rationality i wouldn't be pack my family in the car and move if my neighbour was a convicted sexoffender.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:11   #6
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

The phrase 'sex offender' is completely meaningless, please dont encourage this sort of tabloid driven nonsense which puts child rapists in the same category as someone who downloads photos of 16 year old girls.

Anyone who judges a 'criminal' based on the name of the broad name of crime rather than the specific details of their case is an idiot who is part of the problem.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:17   #7
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

im just more verbose than nod
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:30   #8
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The phrase 'sex offender' is completely meaningless, please dont encourage this sort of tabloid driven nonsense which puts child rapists in the same category as someone who downloads photos of 16 year old girls.

Anyone who judges a 'criminal' based on the name of the broad name of crime rather than the specific details of their case is an idiot who is part of the problem.
Are you saying then, that you'd want to know the details of the offence before deciding whether you'd want to help an individual?

'Sex offender' is as good as term as any for someone who, when released from prison, is obliged to sign the register.
It mentions in the articles that such people are determined to be in 1 of 3 categories, with categories 2 and 3 (where 1 is for people deemed least likely to re-offend) being those for who such 'circles' are deemed appropriate.

Happier now?
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:37   #9
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Paedophiles/Rapists should be castrated, then thrown into general population of a prison and tell the inmates that he/she diddles little kids.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:46   #10
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

I could do it if I was asked to. I doubt that I'd choose to do it, given the number of other things I could do, but I wouldn't have any ethical problems with it.
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Unread 11 Jul 2006, 23:49   #11
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
and the likelyhood that anyone who was convicted of such a crime would be kept in prison till they no longer presented a threat
If such a convicted serious sex offender is released, there is a certain chance that the person will re-offend. This possibility is significant enough that it actually makes sense for the police to first check all known registered sex offenders in a region when a new crime has been committed and its quite a bit higher than the chance to have an unregistered and unknown sex offender as your neighbour.

Not even chemical castration delivers a 100% "cure" to this problem and thats why any psychiatrist who writes a certain amount of recommendations for sex offenders, will sooner or later inevitably write a positive recommendation for a person who re-offends. The worst of those cases usually make it into the tabloids and result in our beloved politicians making "popular" decisions regarding law changes.

ps: about your original question - i would prefer to spend my time helping other people
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 00:03   #12
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
yeah but id be worried they'd harm me (unless we're talking about the non violent type of bank robber)
Really? In the average sense I don't think it would for me. I've only met one ex-bank robber once, and he didn't seem particularly threatening (he was kind of old though).
Quote:
the likelyhood that anyone who was convicted of such a crime would be kept in prison till they no longer presented a threat
You have more faith than most in the criminal justice system. Doesn't rape have one of the highest recidivism rates? In addition to this, I have no idea how you could convincingly say that someone was no longer a threat, unless they had undergone some physical transformation.
Quote:
i can honestly say in all rationality i wouldn't be pack my family in the car and move if my neighbour was a convicted sexoffender.
Well, no. But there's an issue of risk management for most people. If I know someone is a reformed alcoholic I don't unnecessarily offer them booze or ask them to look after my drinks cabinet (for their benefit and mine) and if someone was a reformed child molestor I'd probably not ask them to look after my children. To be fair, this is the same if they were convicted of certain types of murders.

There's a bit in "The Woodsman" when the main character (Kevin Bacon) a released child molestor is having a conversation with his brother-in-law and the brother-in-law says "OMG you should see your neice, she's so beautiful, you should see the little dresses her and her friends wear", etc. Bacon's character is obviously ashamedly excited by all this but you're left thinking of the brother-in-law ; "Dude...stfu for everyone's sake."
Quote:
The terms that are used to label individuals are so broad as to be nearly meaningless id much rather have Graham Rix as a neighbour than the now dead boss of enron
Well I'd not really care about either. I'm pretty sure as much of a snake the Enron guy was it was unlikely he was going to rob my house when I was out. This is why I would agree with Nod, and as I say, I'd need to know the details of the crime that had been committed.

There are certain categories of crimes I wouldn't really be interested if they were going to reoffend. I'd simply wish they were dead, and in good conscience couldn't help them.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 00:14   #13
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
Are you saying then, that you'd want to know the details of the offence before deciding whether you'd want to help an individual?
Well yes, of course. There are people who have actually performed immoral actions (eg child molesters), and then there are people who are victims of ridiculous laws. Terms like sex offenders just conflate the two.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 00:21   #14
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I've only met one ex-bank robber once, and he didn't seem particularly threatening (he was kind of old though).
Also you're not a bank so he probably didn't feel like robbing you. All things considered you probably had a lucky escape!
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 01:40   #15
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Really? In the average sense I don't think it would for me. I've only met one ex-bank robber once, and he didn't seem particularly threatening (he was kind of old though).
well yes, its easy to disassociate the actions of a bank robber from possible harm because they target corporations, but like i said unless you're talking about some sort of mythical friendly bank robber you'll most likely be dealing with ken noye types

Quote:
You have more faith than most in the criminal justice system. Doesn't rape have one of the highest recidivism rates? In addition to this, I have no idea how you could convincingly say that someone was no longer a threat, unless they had undergone some physical transformation.
Well, no. But there's an issue of risk management for most people. If I know someone is a reformed alcoholic I don't unnecessarily offer them booze or ask them to look after my drinks cabinet (for their benefit and mine) and if someone was a reformed child molestor I'd probably not ask them to look after my children. To be fair, this is the same if they were convicted of certain types of murders.
I don't know, although id doubt it unless the individual had a prediliction towards rape but again we're getting into a situation where you're applying the term rape without any real care for what the particular situation was. I wouldn't even think certain acts that land you on the sor as worthy of being crimes so im quite happy to state that i wouldn't think they'd automatically present a threat, if they abducted/raped/murdered a child (which i think is being insinuated at) they'd most probably get a whole life tariff now anyway


Ive happily been the passenger in a car driven by someone who killed a person with their driving



Quote:
There are certain categories of crimes I wouldn't really be interested if they were going to reoffend. I'd simply wish they were dead, and in good conscience couldn't help them.
Can't say the same.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 02:49   #16
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Ive happily been the passenger in a car driven by someone who killed a person with their driving
That's a little different in that they probably didn't want that to happen. Mistakes and accidents happen, indeed we've all done things that were a bit foolish I imagine. In general, I don't see the point of imprisoning someone for killing someone in a car accident and even if they were drink driving or speeding I certainly wouldn't support a very harsh punishment (presuming it was a first offence) - I'm presuming 90% of people would have their conscience to haunt them.

Rape (in the sense I am talking about it - violent rape of a stranger) is a little different and I think we've got to presume there's some sort of "problem" with a person who has done such a thing. Even in the cases of fairly violent rape I doubt someone receives a life sentence in the sense they die in prison - afaik that only happens with the worst categories of prisoners and where the Home Secretary basically says "Fk you if you think I'm being known as the guy who let out Myra Hindley" or whatever. In either case, it would seem a little naive to presume that we don't let people out of prison without them being "cured" somehow.

The % of people reoffending after leaving prison seems to vary wildly from study to study but at least 5% within three years seems credible based on the US figures. Now 95% not reoffending (or at least, not re-committing a sex crime and/or getting caught) seems pretty good but I guess it depends on how we view it. If someone said there was a 5% chance the plane you were about to get on would explode you might consider waiting for the next one.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 03:07   #17
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Hmmm, this thread has got me thinking.

I believe that people shouldn't be allowed to "break" in the first case. As such i think preventative schemes (such as training for the unemployed and parenting classes for the "poor" etc) are where "our money" should be targeted. However i appreciate that the problem of "criminals" exists at the moment and as such you need to attempt rehabilitation methods (as it's either that or leaving them to rot in jail). I think having a supportive environment for people, on their leaving prison, is an essential part of this. As such i think that if i really believe in my own personal brand of politics i should get involved in a scheme like the one mentioned in the OP. I am however lazy. However, if i don't get involved in something like this then i'm just a lazy good for nothing gobshite who doesn't deserve to air an opinion.

What a dilema :(
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 03:12   #18
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

If I didn't fit the sex offenders profile I could. They tend to go for the same type. I.e little boys or little girls. Some go for both. Some go for teenage also. Rarely do they go for grown men. But if a sex offender raped women, then the women in the work place surely wouldn't want to work with him.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 03:43   #19
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That's a little different in that they probably didn't want that to happen. Mistakes and accidents happen, indeed we've all done things that were a bit foolish I imagine. In general, I don't see the point of imprisoning someone for killing someone in a car accident and even if they were drink driving or speeding I certainly wouldn't support a very harsh punishment (presuming it was a first offence) - I'm presuming 90% of people would have their conscience to haunt them.
regardless of what they wanted to happen it was the way they acted that they were punished for

Quote:
Rape (in the sense I am talking about it - violent rape of a stranger) is a little different and I think we've got to presume there's some sort of "problem" with a person who has done such a thing. Even in the cases of fairly violent rape I doubt someone receives a life sentence in the sense they die in prison - afaik that only happens with the worst categories of prisoners and where the Home Secretary basically says "Fk you if you think I'm being known as the guy who let out Myra Hindley" or whatever. In either case, it would seem a little naive to presume that we don't let people out of prison without them being "cured" somehow.
The home secretary can no longer give life tarrifs and killing a child is one of the offences listed for it to be applied, this is going round in circles ill just leave it at saying applying the worst crimes across the board is idiotic and everything is case dependant, as a rule of thumb i wouldn't be *stay awake at night concerned* if a sex offender did move in next door as the stats wouldn't support it being the type of person you're on about.


Quote:
The % of people reoffending after leaving prison seems to vary wildly from study to study but at least 5% within three years seems credible based on the US figures. Now 95% not reoffending (or at least, not re-committing a sex crime and/or getting caught) seems pretty good but I guess it depends on how we view it. If someone said there was a 5% chance the plane you were about to get on would explode you might consider waiting for the next one.
you can't really compare things like that in percentages its almost meaningless, tangential to the topic but i remember reading a forecast along the lines of one major planecrash somewhere in the world every 1-2weeks in 20 years time


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
However, if i don't get involved in something like this then i'm just a lazy good for nothing gobshite who doesn't deserve to air an opinion.

What a dilema
Just because we're all lazy gobshites doesn't mean we shouldn't air our opinions
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 04:06   #20
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
everything is case dependant
Yeah I agreed with that in my first post.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 04:15   #21
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Statistics for sex offenses (rape, paedos and that kind of stuff) is very hard, since most cases arent reported and/or never discovered.

Official statistics in Norway says there are 300-400 reported rapes a year, and proven about 150 (If my memory serves me correct). Govermental agencies sometimes claim about 1000, while crisis centres and womens support group says about 9000, and thats just women. Who is to be belived?

I think the program can be a good one, but I would not sign up for it. Hate is wrong, as is vengeance, but a few groups of people get no love, or sympathy, from me. That does not mean I would hunt them down or prosecute them, it just means that I cant say I care too much for what happens to them.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 05:01   #22
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
Statistics for sex offenses (rape, paedos and that kind of stuff) is very hard, since most cases arent reported and/or never discovered..
Claims like this are interesting because while theyy sound plausible enough, it seems that they cant possibly be supported by any real evidence. How exactly are you going to discover the number of undiscovered rapes?

Quote:
Official statistics in Norway says there are 300-400 reported rapes a year, and proven about 150 (If my memory serves me correct). Govermental agencies sometimes claim about 1000, while crisis centres and womens support group says about 9000, and thats just women. Who is to be belived?
I suspect these groups use very different definitions of 'rape'. For example, I wouldnt be surprised if most women's support groups used a more broad definition than most people, which includes things like sex with drunk girls and so on. Also, a court of law is going to demand far more evidence than a crisis centre before they beleive that someone has actually been raped, many of whom I suspect would accept the alleged victim's testimony without much further questioning.

"Rape" has become a fairly meaningless word these days, since its been diluted by fringe lunatics who want to lump as much under it as possible. You cant really get anywhere in these sort of discussions until youve forced the other person to define exactly what they are calling rape (and why).

Last edited by Nodrog; 12 Jul 2006 at 05:09.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 05:56   #23
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Claims like this are interesting because while theyy sound plausible enough, it seems that they cant possibly be supported by any real evidence. How exactly are you going to discover the number of undiscovered rapes?
Organizations and researchers send out 'victim surveys' to random samples just like they send out 'criminal surveys.' On these surveys people can anonymously disclose if they have been a victim of rape or not and wether or not they reported it. Now of course there are all sorts of problems with mail in surveys and anonymous surveys but they've been doing this for quite a few years now, and they've gotten very good at interpreting the results and finding patterns. Victims surveys are used in conjuction with reported (as in reported to the police) crimes and various other statistical analysis.

So they are not really 'undiscovered' rapes. Criminologist and various sociologist have pretty reliable evidence that a lot of rapes go unreported, and have a rough idea of what plausibe percentages are not reported.

On criminal surveys they ask people to report what crimes they've comitted, and if they use drugs, and etc.

Also, rape is any form of sex that isn't consentual.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 07:43   #24
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Rape (in the sense I am talking about it - violent rape of a stranger)

Discussions on these matters are made utterly pointless if we all decide our own definition of crimes.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 08:06   #25
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well yes, of course. There are people who have actually performed immoral actions (eg child molesters), and then there are people who are victims of ridiculous laws.
I'm still a bit confused. I'm assuming that you'd be more willing to help the former?

Quote:
Terms like sex offenders just conflate the two.
Normally, I'd agree, but I think that within the context of the article, it was fairly evident what was meant.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 08:49   #26
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Discussions on these matters are made utterly pointless if we all decide our own definition of crimes.
Yes, but the legal definition of rape really doesn't conform very well to the common conception of rape now does it? There are plenty of people rightfully convicted of rape, who aren't rapists.

Looking up rape on M-W was a little disturbing though:
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-W
unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent
I have never, ever met a person who'd classify having sex with a consenting minor as rape. Yet, the legal definition seems to have invaded the dictionary too. God, I hate it when somebody 'authorative' changes the definition of a word so the anal-retentive people can suddenly complain about a word being used 'wrongly' (especially the definitions of fruits / vegetables, which are quite recent but really doesn't fit the common usage all that well)

Either way, www.dictionary.com is sane:
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.dictionary.com
The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 08:57   #27
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
I'm still a bit confused. I'm assuming that you'd be more willing to help the former?
Well I'm not particularly interested in helping anyone to be honest; if people are likely to violate the rights of others then they shouldnt be let out of prison, and if they arent, then these sort of programs seem like a waste of time. To be honest, I find the Guardian article quite troubling because it seems to essentially be suggesting that criminals who have a high-risk of reoffending should be let out of prison so that others can relieve their middle-class/Christian guilt by doing some babysitting.

The distinction is that a lot (perhaps most) 'sex offenders' shouldnt be forced into programs like this in the first place, because despite tabloid hysteria, the vast majority of sex offences are either non-crimes in which no rights are violated, or crimes that are on the same level as (eg) assault. I have sympathy with a lot of sex-offenders due to the fact they are getting screwed over by an authoritarian government and a retarded populace, and would obviously treat them a lot more favourably than someone who has molested a 2 year old girl.

Quote:
Normally, I'd agree, but I think that within the context of the article, it was fairly evident what was meant.
Well I still dont know who qualifies for this program. Is it just people who have molested pre-pubescent children? Or does it include those that have downloaded photos of children without actually molesting anyone? How about adults who have slept with 15 year old girls? Businessmen who grabbed their secretaries boobs on a night out? None of the articles actually say what sort of crimes the 'sex offenders' have committed, so I'm not sure why you think it was evident.

Anyway, given that I think the sex offender register should be abolished, I'm not likely to support programs that involve treating 'sex offenders' differently from all other criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Also, rape is any form of sex that isn't consentual.
This doesnt really get us anywhere because the whole argument is over what constitutes consent. The false consciousness induced by patriarchal society makes it impossible for any womyn to rationally consent to sex hence all intercourse is rape, and so on.

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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 08:59   #28
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Discussions on these matters are made utterly pointless if we all decide our own definition of crimes.
Sup context. I am not redefining the term I am merely only considering a subset of rapes. I can write "rape, but when I say rape I of course don't mean statutory rape or indeed rapes of a relatively non-violent nature" each time, but that's a bit tiresome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
Normally, I'd agree, but I think that within the context of the article, it was fairly evident what was meant.
Nah, the article still used terms like convicted paedophile (which is unhelpful and misleading anyway).

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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 09:07   #29
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
...the vast majority of sex offences are either non-crimes in which no rights are violated...
And you are basing this claim on what?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 09:13   #30
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And you are basing this claim on what?
You've not quoted his "or" statement which radically changes what he's said.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 09:17   #31
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You've not quoted his "or" statement which radically changes what he's said.
I do have a problem with the second the post 'or' part, but I really have a problem with this part. It's a claim, 'or' or 'no or' which requires substantiation or explanation of some kind.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 09:19   #32
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This doesnt really get us anywhere because the whole argument is over what constitutes consent. The false consciousness induced by patriarchal society makes it impossible for any womyn to rationally consent to sex hence all intercourse is rape, and so on.
I understand what you are getting at, but it's not all that patriarchal of a society anymore (although it is far from equal). If the woman says 'no' or is not concious or in a state in which she is inable to give consent, then it is rape.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 09:23   #33
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by s|k
I do have a problem with the second the post 'or' part, but I really have a problem with this part. It's a claim, 'or' or 'no or' which requires substantiation or explanation of some kind.
Well, it's unfair to quote just that bit, as the or changes the context of it quite a bit.

Consider the statment : "The majority of people in the world are either over 80 or live in Asia/Africa"

If you just quoted "the majority of people in the world are [...] over 80" clearly that can't be substantiated since it isn't true, but then again it's not supposed to be by itself.

That first part of his "or" claim is fairly modest and would probably be true even if it applied to one case a year. Considering that we know that people who download child pornography are categorised as sexual offences it actually strikes me as something which requires almost zero additional support.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 10:38   #34
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by hyfe
I have never, ever met a person who'd classify having sex with a consenting minor as rape.
Quite a lot people of child care groups do that. The reasoning is simple - a child (speaking of for example an 8 year old girl*) is not able to consciously consent to having sex because the child is incapable of judging the scope of the engagement. The child isnt yet mentally capable to make this descision. This isnt unreasonable considering that sexual education and self-awareness regarding sexuality didnt yet happen**.

Additionally childs are much easier to manipulate as they are usually fully dependant on adults. They cant judge if its true that "everybody does that, but dont tell anybody" and there are lots of ways to subtly coerce childs into "giving consent".

No consent*** -> rape

Its really just the same like the fact that persons below a certain age are not allowed to go into some legal agreements. Otherwise i would assume that the market for organs of 5 year olds would drastically rise and the price of a liver would be around 2 buckets of vanilla icecream.

*: no matter where you draw the line of age - it will always be "unfair" for some, but i assume 8 years is low enough for most even on GD

**: this is usually the point where some pro paedophile groups cite "funny" studies "proving" that babies already can "enjoy" sexual feelings

***: the whole consent problem is really much more "difficult" with mentally challenged/ill adults. By the same reasoning you would need to forbid them having sex. For some reason however, this isnt in the focus of the public and basically ignored.

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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 12:12   #35
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Quite a lot people of child care groups do that. The reasoning is simple - a child (speaking of for example an 8 year old girl*) is not able to consciously consent to having sex because the child is incapable of judging the scope of the engagement. The child isnt yet mentally capable to make this descision. This isnt unreasonable considering that sexual education and self-awareness regarding sexuality didnt yet happen**.
Yes, it is unreasonable. Having sex with an 8 year old might be immoral, and certainly is unlawfull, but that doesn't mean we should just take a word with strong negative connotations and slap it on to ensure people will feel enough revulsion. I mean, calling a pedo who has consentual sex with a child a rapist is as inane as calling him a murderer (he's murdering her soul and her innonence!).

Rape is having sex with someone who is not consenting. Hence, if someone is consenting, it's not rape. Even if we're overruling somebody's consent, claiming it's not good enough due to age, intoxication or general mental abilities*, it still doesn't change the fact that consent was given. Some molesters rape children, others have sex with them.

This isn't a question about morality, who's able to give consent etc. It's a question about language, precision and fear-mongering. Please don't buy their inane logic.


* I am quite fond of the idea of taking this whole 'not mentally capable of consenting to sex'-idea to it's logical conclusion though, and start prosecuting everybody who shag nitwit girls... anything which keep them from breeding is a good thing(TM).
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 13:00   #36
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by coffee-
Paedophiles/Rapists should be castrated, then thrown into general population of a prison and tell the inmates that he/she diddles little kids.
I understand the need for someone to do this job.... It just aint gonna be me. It would require someone more with alot more restraint or compassion than I do. I would honestly end up losing the plot with them and get the jail.

Might be going off topic, If the state (USA for example) is willing to do the death penalty for murder, would castration for paedophiles (probily repeat offenders) be a punishment fit for the crime? I would think so
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 13:13   #37
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
would castration for paedophiles (probily repeat offenders) be a punishment fit for the crime? I would think so
Well this implies it's purely a sexual frustration thing. A lot of this seems to be out of psychological trauma, something which is hardly like to be improved by mutiliating somebody (or however you intend to achieve this).

In short, while you might specifically reduce the number of rapes being carried out (presuming you're talking about child molestors, not paedophiles generally) I doubt it's going to make many productive members of society.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 13:28   #38
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Claims like this are interesting because while theyy sound plausible enough, it seems that they cant possibly be supported by any real evidence. How exactly are you going to discover the number of undiscovered rapes?

I suspect these groups use very different definitions of 'rape'. For example, I wouldnt be surprised if most women's support groups used a more broad definition than most people, which includes things like sex with drunk girls and so on. Also, a court of law is going to demand far more evidence than a crisis centre before they beleive that someone has actually been raped, many of whom I suspect would accept the alleged victim's testimony without much further questioning.

"Rape" has become a fairly meaningless word these days, since its been diluted by fringe lunatics who want to lump as much under it as possible. You cant really get anywhere in these sort of discussions until youve forced the other person to define exactly what they are calling rape (and why).
That was my point. The fallback rate of regular criminals is much higher then rapists/sex offenders on paper, but why would they be rehabilitated by prison while a bankrobber or shoplifter would not? I mean sexoffenders as in people who actually offends, just to clear that up. There cant be any meaningfull debate on how to stop rapers before they actually find out who rape who and why. Judging from the jist of things, its not the balaclava wearing hoodlum in the park thats the most common rapist, and thus any big effort against that group would probably not do any good.

The definition is changed all the time, but for me, SK's is the correct one. No or in such a state as she cannot be fully aware = rape. If you **** a deaddrunk girl and she complains about it later, you made your own bed etc.

Fringe groups always do that to words, you know. Most of the middleclass "revolutionary" left runs around calling everything that disagrees with them fascism, that makes it really hard to identify and combat proper fascism etc. Groups that are so extreme should just be ignored, as there are crazy womens group out there (penetration = rape, all girls are really lesbian just brainwashed etc)
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 13:31   #39
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Yes, it is unreasonable. Having sex with an 8 year old might be immoral, and certainly is unlawfull, but that doesn't mean we should just take a word with strong negative connotations and slap it on to ensure people will feel enough revulsion.
I seriously doubt that the reaction towards a person would be much different if it would be called "happy consentual girlfriendsex with underage children" instead of "rape".

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Rape is having sex with someone who is not consenting. Hence, if someone is consenting, it's not rape. Even if we're overruling somebody's consent, claiming it's not good enough due to age, intoxication or general mental abilities*, it still doesn't change the fact that consent was given.
That might be your personal definition but the law is very simple and straightforward in this matter IMHO. There are certain requirements for a person to be able to give legal consent and one of the most important of them is age. No ability to give legal consent -> no consent in front of the law.

If your opinion is that children of 8 years should be legally allowed to give consent to having sex (with adults) then

a) we disagree

b) you can freely create a movement/party trying to change the law in this matter in democratic countries. But dont mistake "freedom of speech" with "freedom of consequences" (like it is often done on GD) when you start your campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Some molesters rape children, others have sex with them.
Thats your opinion - another point of view would be "Some rapists are more violent to children then* others."

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
This isn't a question about morality, who's able to give consent etc. It's a question about language, precision and fear-mongering. Please don't buy their inane logic.
Im glad to know the question about having sex with 8 year old children isnt a moral issue and i will now double my efforts to not buy any "inane" logic no matter by whom.

* is it "then" or "than"? is there a simple rule for this in english?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 13:32   #40
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Might be going off topic, If the state (USA for example) is willing to do the death penalty for murder, would castration for paedophiles (probily repeat offenders) be a punishment fit for the crime? I would think so
Do you think the deathpenalty ever stopped anybody from murdering or raping? Crime fighting is about fighting reasons, not the effects, if it wants to be effective. Just making society and punishment more inhuman will make more inhumane criminals.

Besides, you can still mutilate or sexoffend without a penis yourself.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 14:02   #41
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well this implies it's purely a sexual frustration thing. A lot of this seems to be out of psychological trauma, something which is hardly like to be improved by mutiliating somebody (or however you intend to achieve this).

In short, while you might specifically reduce the number of rapes being carried out (presuming you're talking about child molestors, not paedophiles generally) I doubt it's going to make many productive members of society.
The death penalty is the state effectively saying to the offender "You are beyond redemption" If the offender is going to continously offend and wreak more young lives. Are they fit to ever have children of their own?
When you are saying It isnt going to make more productive members of society, I would beg to differ. Child abuse does wreak young peoples lives and some dont ever recover from it, as a result reduce their productiveness if you want to look at it from a clinical perspective. If this would reduce this vile crime (tougher penalty).
Then why shouldnt it be? at what point does an innocent child have to keep suffering when more can be done?

What is so taboo about it when the death penalty is used in parts of the world?
This would be a punishment reserved for the "beyond redemption"
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 14:10   #42
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Paisley
When you are saying It isnt going to make more productive members of society, I would beg to differ.
Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was : This is not going to cure people from being abusers. If you want to make sure that someone is not going to hurt anyone ever again then sure, put a bullet through the back of their head. But mutilating their genitals does not seem like a very sure way of stopping someone being a criminal.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 14:16   #43
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Snurx
Do you think the deathpenalty ever stopped anybody from murdering or raping? Crime fighting is about fighting reasons, not the effects, if it wants to be effective. Just making society and punishment more inhuman will make more inhumane criminals.

Besides, you can still mutilate or sexoffend without a penis yourself.
It does act as a detterent, I never said it would erradicate child abuse any steps to reduce it should be considered. At what point should the offender have priority over the victim/innocent?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 14:43   #44
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was : This is not going to cure people from being abusers. If you want to make sure that someone is not going to hurt anyone ever again then sure, put a bullet through the back of their head. But mutilating their genitals does not seem like a very sure way of stopping someone being a criminal.
It is a chilling thought if any of these animals became parents.
I dont know about you but that sends shivers down my spine.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 14:55   #45
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Paisley
It does act as a detterent, I never said it would erradicate child abuse any steps to reduce it should be considered. At what point should the offender have priority over the victim/innocent?
Never, but mutilating somebody for something they have done will not change that, and mutilating somebody for something they might do in the future is in my eyes very wrong. Besides, where would you draw the line? And can you be sure that there is no miscarriages of justice? The deathpenalty, as you've used as a example, has been used on innocents before and will be again. Do you really think its worht mutilating even one innocent if it stops 1000 rapes?

And why do you think it acts as a deterent? This is just my opinion, but if you rape or abuse a child you got a serious mental problem. Do you think that a mental problem can be cured just by a piece of paper? The US got the death penalty and very high prison sentences, does it stop even regular crimes?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:08   #46
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Paisley
It is a chilling thought if any of these animals became parents.
You hardly need to castrate someone to stop them becoming parents, and since a lot of abuse is of step children it's not clear that stopping them producing biological offspring would stop them becoming parents anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
Do you really think its worht mutilating even one innocent if it stops 1000 rapes?
I agree with you that mutilating people is a terrible idea, but I don't think it pays to ask questions like this. Aside from being nothing like a real life situation if you take it to this sort of extreme a lot of people might say yes it is worth it.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 15:37   #47
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You hardly need to castrate someone to stop them becoming parents, and since a lot of abuse is of step children it's not clear that stopping them producing biological offspring would stop them becoming parents anyway..
Without sounding absolutely crass... But here is an example
A "castratee" who has a long history of abusing kids and it is now the time after the punishment is carried out. Meets a nice single mum with kids (with the view of getting in with the kids but not in a good way). The couple get on great, until they get into bed.
Then the women says "where is your dick?"

The woman is absolutey shocked and ends all ties with him and what do you know the children arent subject to abuse. Might not be as clear cut as that however.

One less victim to worry about... thats a result.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 16:02   #48
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Snurx
Never, but mutilating somebody for something they have done will not change that, and mutilating somebody for something they might do in the future is in my eyes very wrong. Besides, where would you draw the line? And can you be sure that there is no miscarriages of justice? The deathpenalty, as you've used as a example, has been used on innocents before and will be again. Do you really think its worht mutilating even one innocent if it stops 1000 rapes?

And why do you think it acts as a deterent? This is just my opinion, but if you rape or abuse a child you got a serious mental problem. Do you think that a mental problem can be cured just by a piece of paper? The US got the death penalty and very high prison sentences, does it stop even regular crimes?
Is it a mental illness or a sick fetish? Thats a good question.
Lets ask the little girl who has to see a councillor through no fault of their own.

Where did I say a piece of paper will cure the individual?
My concern that the childs protection is paramount... the individual comes 2nd.

Where did I say that the legal system is flawless?
I did say that this should be reserved for the repeat offender than will be seen as "beyond redemption"
To say that a man can be convicted wrongly once... plauseable
To say that a man can be convicted wrongly twice... highly unlikely
To say that a man can be convicted wrongly 3 times?

we must have have an incompentent legal system for this to happen.
which by the way unlike the death penalty the convicted dont die (and can only be tried once)
If they have previously went to jail, served their time and still are willing to do the deed. Then you know things are at dire straights.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 16:43   #49
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Considering that we know that people who download child pornography are categorised as sexual offences it actually strikes me as something which requires almost zero additional support.
Do you think that taking pictures of naked children, and childrend being sexually molested, and supporting that industry is victimless?
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 16:46   #50
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Re: Working with a sex offender, could you do it?

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Originally Posted by s|k
Do you think that taking pictures of naked children, and childrend being sexually molested, and supporting that industry is victimless?
Given that children can include anything up to a 17 year old in some countries, yes I think it can be victimless.

And as I have discussed previously I do not think that downloading child pornography should be a crime. Obviously making it is another matter (although the vast majority of photographs of children naked are probably harmless family photos, so I guess that can be victimless too).
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