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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:31   #1
All Systems Go
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Animal Rights

I was going to start a thread on morals in general but I realised as I was typing that I was starting to ramble and was about to begin generalising to the point of absurdity. So, I've decided to skip all of that and dive straight into the ses-pit that is animal rights.

Firstly, I do not believe in a God or any form of higher power. As a result I believe morals have no greater value than what we place in them. If we do adopt morals as a society then what should these entail? Basically I believe in a 'treat others how you would like to be treated' morality. Seeing as how different people want to be treated in different ways the logical move would be to present the maximum level of freedom and only prohibit actions that would have a negative effect on others i.e. I have the right not to be attacked randomly in the street.

Moving on from this I do not believe in a soul. People are just animals with a more developed brain. this allows us to think but we share a lot of characteristics with animals. the characteristic I am interested in right now is the ability of animals to feel pain.

I believe animals feel pain. As a result I believe that they have the right not to be tortured. Seeing as human beings are not a higher form of life when compared to animals it therefore follows that animals shoud shre some of the same basic rights. For if it is right to kill and eat a pig then surely it is the same to kill and eat a human being. I can see no reason why (apart from potential health risks) why it would be acceptable to eat all other animals except for human beings.

the same goes for animal testing. If it is ok to test on a mouse then why not on a human being? Once the illusionary distinction between humans and animals is removed (which is only there for conveinance) things become far more complex.

I believe in the future that vegetarianism will become the norm (unless scientists can grow meat in a lab, the result of which would be meat with no suffering from an animal) and the only reason I am not one now is because I do not care enough to change my lifestyle.

I am under no illusions and am fully aware that I am being hypocritical but it does not bother me enough for me to change my ways, much in the same way I suppose as con-men and people responsible for dumping shed loads of chemical waste into seas and rivers etc don't stop doing what they do even though they are aware others are negatively affected.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:34   #2
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
the characteristic I am interested in right now is the ability of animals to feel pain.
Why? And what do you mean by feel pain anyway?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:44   #3
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I believe animals feel pain.
I always figured it was common knowledge that animals feel pain. If you step on a dog's foot it yelps, and runs and hides, and remembers that you brought it pain.
Quote:
As a result I believe that they have the right not to be tortured.
I totally agree, animals should not be tortured or used for experimentation. We should find human volunteers instead, there's usually someone that will accept the risks involved with experimenting with new drugs and whatnot.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:48   #4
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Re: Animal Rights

ok what i think about this. Is that we are the supereor life form on this planet. Uther wize we would not have come out on top of all uthers and echeved what we have. I also think that in respect to the eating animas point. Is that if you have a problem with that then do not eat animals and let uther humans do it. Because we evolved around eatin animas like the pig cow sheap dear and all uthers. It was the way we evolved. It is the same with all uther carniverus mamals and animals thay have evolved to eat uther animals the only resen we are on top is probaly by chance in the evolushonary scale. For all we now it could have endid up that say sheep or pigs or the clasic monkey came out on top. And could be eating us but it would still be the same problem. Is it right to eat uther mamals or animals.

I think yes as it is the way i have been brought up. I was brought up a meat eater and will alway be one

and in respect to the pain thing yes animals almost certenly feal pain thay do every day and when thay hurt or get hurt.

pain is when you scratch your self you are basicly releving paine will even more pain.

as pain is just an acrivation of your nerve endings

this is all i am going to say

if you read this then thanks for reading it

neptis arcos
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 20:55   #5
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Why? And what do you mean by feel pain anyway?
I think a decent way to describe pain would be to define it as a negative physical sensation. If a creature is in physical pain then it's repsonses are altered.

You could argue that animals do not feel pain and their actions are just an automated response but I have seen no evidence for that and I'm not sure you could prove that anyway. Would that be the same for a mouse as it is for an ape?

If you agree that humans should be spared physical pain when possible and that humans are not intrinsically different from other animals then I do not see why the same rule should not be applied to animals.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:05   #6
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
ok what i think about this. Is that we are the supereor life form on this planet. Uther wize we would not have come out on top of all uthers and echeved what we have.
At the moment we are superior but we have only been round a tiny amount of time, 32,000 years which absolutly nothing in the grand scheme of things. that we came out on top is largely irelevant to this discussion as the same point could be raised if we were a species of super intelligent pigs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
I also think that in respect to the eating animas point. Is that if you have a problem with that then do not eat animals and let uther humans do it.
I have no intention of trying to stop people eat in much the same way as I have no intention of travelling into the middle of a war zone and fighting in an attempt to stop a genocide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
Because we evolved around eatin animas like the pig cow sheap dear and all uthers. It was the way we evolved. It is the same with all uther carniverus mamals and animals thay have evolved to eat uther animals the only resen we are on top is probaly by chance in the evolushonary scale. For all we now it could have endid up that say sheep or pigs or the clasic monkey came out on top. And could be eating us but it would still be the same problem. Is it right to eat uther mamals or animals.
<Insert obligitory Simpsons quote here>

We have evolved. We are capable of free thought and we can change the way we treat the world. Black people used to be sold in the slave trade but you couldn't justify it now by saying it's what we've done in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
I think yes as it is the way i have been brought up. I was brought up a meat eater and will alway be one

and in respect to the pain thing yes animals almost certenly feal pain thay do every day and when thay hurt or get hurt.

pain is when you scratch your self you are basicly releving paine will even more pain.

as pain is just an acrivation of your nerve endings

this is all i am going to say

if you read this then thanks for reading it

neptis arcos
Jusv because you've eaten meat in the past doesn't mean you should always do it. People can change and people do change that's how thoughts develop and how we asa species have developed, by chalenging traditional ideas.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:13   #7
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Re: Animal Rights

If lions are not really different from people, and lions kill antelopes, why can't we kill cows?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:18   #8
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Re: Animal Rights

i agree not to torture, eat, mutilate, assault, or otherwise painfully violate other human beings partly on the principle that they have made a similar agreement with respect to me.

not to say that i'm down with torturing animals, but just to say that 'humans are just like any other animals' isn't fair,

humans are animals that can be on the record as not planning to chew on my still-living body.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:27   #9
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I believe in the future that vegetarianism will become the norm (unless scientists can grow meat in a lab, the result of which would be meat with no suffering from an animal)
We, like all other animals, are part of the food chain, we have evolved to be omnivores.

Quote:
I totally agree, animals should not be tortured or used for experimentation. We should find human volunteers instead, there's usually someone that will accept the risks involved with experimenting with new drugs and whatnot.
The laws governing animal testing are extremely tight. Animals are only allowed to be tested on when there is no other alternative and they arent kept in 'pain' any longer than is necessary.

Humans are used in testing - clinical trials. If you want to abolish animal testing and throw new drugs at humans you would kill people by the billion (assuming an unlimited supply of people who were not scared off by the death of others). The other option would be to stop the progression of drug discovery. Interestingly about 8 times more rats/mice are killed each year by pest control than by medical research.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:31   #10
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
If lions are not really different from people, and lions kill antelopes, why can't we kill cows?
Because lions don't have a choice. they are not capable of growing plants in a garden. their only option to survive is to kill.

If people were in a position where the only way vo survive was to kill and eat animals then fair enough, survival of the fittest and all that. But we as a species have evolved past that and the killing of animals and the eating of their flesh is just for pleasure.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:33   #11
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i agree not to torture, eat, mutilate, assault, or otherwise painfully violate other human beings partly on the principle that they have made a similar agreement with respect to me.

not to say that i'm down with torturing animals, but just to say that 'humans are just like any other animals' isn't fair,

humans are animals that can be on the record as not planning to chew on my still-living body.
I'm not saying that it's wrong to hurt or kill a creature in self-defence but that is a different issue. It is not the same as breeding pigs to slaughter them, what threat is the pig posing?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:41   #12
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
We, like all other animals, are part of the food chain, we have evolved to be omnivores.
We are capable of thought, we no longer need to be to be ruled by instinct. We can get all necessary food stuffs without the killing of animals. the choice is ours and we choose not to make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
The laws governing animal testing are extremely tight. Animals are only allowed to be tested on when there is no other alternative and they arent kept in 'pain' any longer than is necessary.
Why not on humans? We have no special mission from God nor are we different as we both feel pain. Plus hman testing would be far more efficiant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Humans are used in testing - clinical trials. If you want to abolish animal testing and throw new drugs at humans you would kill people by the billion (assuming an unlimited supply of people who were not scared off by the death of others). The other option would be to stop the progression of drug discovery. Interestingly about 8 times more rats/mice are killed each year by pest control than by medical research.
So we are killing animals by the billion? What's the difference between humans and animals?

Edit: Looks like I'm going to have to start answering more than one person in each post.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 21:52   #13
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Re: Animal Rights

How do you know that lions couldn't have allotments if they wanted them?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 22:10   #14
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
How do you know that lions couldn't have allotments if they wanted them?
to my knowledge this experiance has never been observed in the wild or in captivity. If it was true you would expect at least one case to be documented.

I know you're being stupid but I thought I'd try and answer in a serious way regardless.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 22:26   #15
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Re: Animal Rights

David Attenborough is probably in cahoots with the lions to keep their agricultural tendencies secret from us.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 22:59   #16
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Seeing as human beings are not a higher form of life when compared to animals it therefore follows that animals shoud shre some of the same basic rights. For if it is right to kill and eat a pig then surely it is the same to kill and eat a human being. I can see no reason why (apart from potential health risks) why it would be acceptable to eat all other animals except for human beings.
This issue is consent. If something cannot consent the idea of assigning it rights and responsibilities becomes meaningless.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 23:06   #17
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This issue is consent. If something cannot consent the idea of assigning it rights and responsibilities becomes meaningless.
That an animals taste too good to stop eating
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 23:07   #18
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This issue is consent. If something cannot consent the idea of assigning it rights and responsibilities becomes meaningless.
We give rights to children and the mentally ill, these are animals which cannot consent.

We as people (theoretically at least) assume the responsibility of protecting those who cannnot defend themslves.

We look after the mentally ill who may not be able to understand their rights and responsibilities in society.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 23:09   #19
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
ISeeing as human beings are not a higher form of life when compared to animals .
Wait, what? The difference in intelligence and mental capacities between humans and all other animals is absolutely huge; what do you mean by 'higher form of life'?

Non-human animals do not have the required level of mental powers to make talk of 'rights' coherent. Lions dont refrain from biting you due to their thinking that you have the right to life.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 23:15   #20
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We give rights to children and the mentally ill, these are animals which cannot consent.
Children, as definite potential consenters, are a case of excerption not abstraction.

Quote:
We as people (theoretically at least) assume the responsibility of protecting those who cannnot defend themslves.
This has nothing to do with consent but okay.

Quote:
We look after the mentally ill who may not be able to understand their rights and responsibilities in society.
Similarly to children you can view the mentally ill as potential consenters pending medical advances. That said I don't consider "braindead" people as deserving of rights and I'd lean more towards considering them the "property" of whoever they expressed a desire to become the "property" of in some sort of will.

Besides that we clearly have to draw the line somewhere. I'd rather not live in a society which goes around imprisoning people for squashing irritating insects to be honest.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 23:18   #21
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Wait, what? The difference in intelligence and mental capacities between humans and all other animals is absolutely huge; what do you mean by 'higher form of life'?
We are just animals. We have higher intelligence but this does not mae us special. We just evolved in this way first and in the future any other species may evolve in a similar path. People don't consider a shark a higher form of life even though it's remained relatively unchanged for so many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Non-human animals do not have the required level of mental powers to make talk of 'rights' coherent. Lions dont refrain from biting you due to their thinking that you have the right to life.
No they don't but that doesn't mean it gives us the right to go and torture and animal because we can't communicate with it.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 23:23   #22
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We are just animals. We have higher intelligence but this does not mae us special.
Of course it does. Introspection and in general second-order thinking is a human domain.

Quote:
We just evolved in this way first and in the future any other species may evolve in a similar path. People don't consider a shark a higher form of life even though it's remained relatively unchanged for so many years.
A higher form of life than what? Plankton? Yes we do? Your first point is a rather different moral question concerning future-orientated ethics. There was a discussion on GD ages ago about this I think. Really worthwhile link here. There is an interesting follow-through point that can be made here that perhaps inflicting "pain" on animals is a case of harmless wrongdoing.


All this aside you're going to run into vast practical problems concerning where the hell all the animals are going to go. Presuming we're not going completely barmy and saying animals can own property where are we going to put them all? I rather doubt that many people are going to find 50 million cows that amusing to have around when you're not allowed to kill them and sell them.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 23:25   #23
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
that doesn't mean it gives us the right to go and torture and animal because we can't communicate with it.
So then a lion has no right to maul a human because they can't communicate with us?
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 00:09   #24
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We are just animals. We have higher intelligence but this does not mae us special.
Well yeah, it does. I'd say that humans are qualitively different from all other animals due to the immense differences in mental capacity; you'll notice that all the science and biology youre using to support your arguments was discovered by humans rather than mice or dolphins.

Quote:
We just evolved in this way first and in the future any other species may evolve in a similar path.
That's true, and they will deserve rights to the extent that are capable of similar higher order thought processes to humans. If some scientist managed to genetically engineer a species of cats that were capable of complex conceptual thought and could grasp the concept of 'rights', then they should be given the same rights as humans But that day has not come yet.

Quote:
People don't consider a shark a higher form of life
A higher form of life than what? I would suspect most people consider a shark a higher form of life than a bacteria. If all living things are equal, then what is the justification for granting rights to sharks and not trees and plants?

Quote:
No they don't but that doesn't mean it gives us the right to go and torture and animal because we can't communicate with it.
Do you think that we should have a murder trial when a cat kills a mouse? Becuase if not, this suggests that the application of 'rights' to non-human animals cannot be the same as their application to us.

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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 00:49   #25
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Re: Animal Rights

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Originally Posted by Ska
That an animals taste too good to stop eating
Meat is murder....

but boy doesn't it taste good.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 00:56   #26
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Re: Animal Rights

Nature is something that for me is sacred. Not in a spiritual way, althought you can find many strange and wonderfull things, I do not belive its a entity that is alive on its own but more a system that has evolved and involves everything in it, and should not be tampered or destroyed nedlessy (for me, that is profit).

I'm against fur, beacause the idea of torturing these animals just for fashion is sick. I also belive that industrial farming on animals for profit is wrong, as its tampering and destroying nature too much. However, in nature, animals eat other animals. It's the cycle of life, and we (as a race) is part of it. So, ecological farming (and husbandry, hunting) is in my eyes okay.

Holding tens of thousands of chikens in a small, closed enviroment, cut out from their natural habitation and lifecycle is wrong. But killing a chiken and eating it? No. Imprisoning mink/fox for fur is wrong, but if you kill a lion in selfdefense or kill a bison for food, is using everypart of it wrong? No.

I was a vegetarian when I was younger and thought punk music was the coolest thing in the world (as was throwing rocks and eating from dumpsters) I've reconsidered my stance on veganism/vegetarism, and have adopted a more pro-eco stance. Id rather try to convince people to by ecological food, or drive 5 in a car instead of 1, then run around moralizing about them eating meat, as that would have a much greater effect on nature.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 01:36   #27
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Re: Animal Rights

I have always personally thought that vegatarianism was foolish, simply because it deprives the human body of a source sustenance which it was designed to take in. It is true that we have evolved into a state where we can make moral decisions about the process of killing other animals for food, but presently I see no justification against it.

On abolition of the meat industry, there would also be many economic ramifications. I'm sure you are aware of this and won't bother to go into, as it's not all that revlevent to you're argument in the way you have presented it.

An interesting note; since you do not consider us to be 'special' or a 'higher life form' as it were, does this mean that you would not consider human life to be worth more than that of an animal? Personally I would. ( I am not insinuating that you do not value human life, but this would have to be a consideration surely in not classifying humans as higher life forms).
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 10:19   #28
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Re: Animal Rights

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Originally Posted by Proxi
I have always personally thought that vegatarianism was foolish, simply because it deprives the human body of a source sustenance which it was designed to take in.
Erm, designed by who?
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 10:22   #29
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Re: Animal Rights

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Originally Posted by SbOlly
Erm, designed by who?
Al Gore?
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 10:23   #30
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
At the moment we are superior but we have only been round a tiny amount of time, 32,000 years which absolutly nothing in the grand scheme of things. that we came out on top is largely irelevant to this discussion as the same point could be raised if we were a species of super intelligent pigs.



I have no intention of trying to stop people eat in much the same way as I have no intention of travelling into the middle of a war zone and fighting in an attempt to stop a genocide.



<Insert obligitory Simpsons quote here>

We have evolved. We are capable of free thought and we can change the way we treat the world. Black people used to be sold in the slave trade but you couldn't justify it now by saying it's what we've done in the past.




Jusv because you've eaten meat in the past doesn't mean you should always do it. People can change and people do change that's how thoughts develop and how we asa species have developed, by chalenging traditional ideas.
-----------------------------
it was only my opinion.
-----------------------------

aculy we are a race of super iteligen chimpanze thair is only a 0.09 % diference in our dna.

And in respect to the
the Quote about the black slave trade. That has nuthing what so ever to do with animals so why bring it up?.

And of corce it dus not make it right just because we have dun it in the past.

I was saying i have eatin meat and always will i did not say it was ok to do it i just do because it was the way i was brought up.

but that is irelivent to the point.

What i am besicly saying is that we evolved to be the hier for of life on the planet problay by chance. Thairfor our ansesters desided to start hunting the animals around them for survivel and for the food and pelt to make the clothing. And that is a tradishon that has continude up untill our lifetimes and will continu after ours. We also have farms with the cattel because it makes it esyer for us to get our food.

i am not saying it is right but it is not wrong ether

this agen is just my opinion

respectfuly
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 12:05   #31
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Of course it does. Introspection and in general second-order thinking is a human domain.
It makes us unique that unlike any other animal we can be held accountable for our actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
A higher form of life than what? Plankton? Yes we do? Your first point is a rather different moral question concerning future-orientated ethics. There was a discussion on GD ages ago about this I think. Really worthwhile link here. There is an interesting follow-through point that can be made here that perhaps inflicting "pain" on animals is a case of harmless wrongdoing.
to be honest I'm not sure where I was going with that. Reading back I seemed to have answered 'what do you mean by higher form of life?' with something irrelevant which uses the phrase 'higher form of life'.

I'm not really sure how you would define 'higher form of life' as there are so many ways to do it. the most conveniant for people would be to assume our main attribute (i.e. intelligence) is the marker on which animals should be graded. It could also imply the length of time an animal has survived without major evolutionary changes, like a shark (am I right about this point? How much have they changed?). then again, you could go with a species ability to survive in which case it would be bugs (such as the cockroach) which would be consdiered the highest forms of life.

It all really depends what the phrase to represent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
All this aside you're going to run into vast practical problems concerning where the hell all the animals are going to go. Presuming we're not going completely barmy and saying animals can own property where are we going to put them all? I rather doubt that many people are going to find 50 million cows that amusing to have around when you're not allowed to kill them and sell them.
that is a problem of our own making and brings us towards euthenasia. Is it right to let them all starve to death when there isn't enough grass to feed them all or do we kill off a load to keep a 'balance'? this practice is already carried out in some places, not with cows of course and is part of a heated debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
So then a lion has no right to maul a human because they can't communicate with us?
A lion is not capable of those higher thought functions which allow it to consider such an option. Can you hold a (non-human) creature to accout for its actions? No you cannot because it lacks the ability to reason.

this does not justify hunting lions for fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well yeah, it does. I'd say that humans are qualitively different from all other animals due to the immense differences in mental capacity; you'll notice that all the science and biology youre using to support your arguments was discovered by humans rather than mice or dolphins.
Does that necessarily mean it's a good thing if this eventual technology ends up destoying us? If there was a nuclear war all that would survive would be the cockroaches etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
That's true, and they will deserve rights to the extent that are capable of similar higher order thought processes to humans. If some scientist managed to genetically engineer a species of cats that were capable of complex conceptual thought and could grasp the concept of 'rights', then they should be given the same rights as humans But that day has not come yet.
I know this is a bit off-topic but what of machines? If they developed artificial intelligence would these machines have to be given equal rights? Why should we be the ones deciding who gets the rights? If a machine was created with higher thought prcesses than a human being (plus they would live longer due to parts being more easily replacable) wouldn't that then make us subordinate to them? What if they decided that until we evolved into superior beings such as themselves that we should be treated like animals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
A higher form of life than what? I would suspect most people consider a shark a higher form of life than a bacteria. If all living things are equal, then what is the justification for granting rights to sharks and not trees and plants?
Can trees feel pain? Can the feel anything? this would be a very important distinction. It's like some people don't believe that fish do not feel pain. If this is true then that argument for not killing and eating fish is removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Do you think that we should have a murder trial when a cat kills a mouse? Becuase if not, this suggests that the application of 'rights' to non-human animals cannot be the same as their application to us.
I've already touched upon this. A lion cannot be held accountable for it's actions as it lacks the higher brain functions to fully consider the consequences of its actions.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 12:18   #32
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It makes us unique that unlike any other animal we can be held accountable for our actions.
This is just random extrapolation though. I can say it makes us unique because it entitles us to rights.

Quote:
I'm not really sure how you would define 'higher form of life' as there are so many ways to do it. the most conveniant for people would be to assume our main attribute (i.e. intelligence) is the marker on which animals should be graded. It could also imply the length of time an animal has survived without major evolutionary changes, like a shark (am I right about this point? How much have they changed?). then again, you could go with a species ability to survive in which case it would be bugs (such as the cockroach) which would be consdiered the highest forms of life.
I'd imagine we'd have to base it on complexity. Much like we say a billion years as a slave is worth less than a lifetime of freedom, survival ability is fairly irrelevant to this point.



Quote:
that is a problem of our own making and brings us towards euthenasia. Is it right to let them all starve to death when there isn't enough grass to feed them all or do we kill off a load to keep a 'balance'? this practice is already carried out in some places, not with cows of course and is part of a heated debate.
It's not a problem of our own making. It's a necessary inevitability. If you believe animals can't own property then there's nowhere they have a right to exist.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 12:33   #33
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxi
I have always personally thought that vegatarianism was foolish, simply because it deprives the human body of a source sustenance which it was designed to take in.
It evolved it was not designed, there is a HUGE difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxi
On abolition of the meat industry, there would also be many economic ramifications. I'm sure you are aware of this and won't bother to go into, as it's not all that revlevent to you're argument in the way you have presented it.
the same argument could be made for the abolition of the arms trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxi
An interesting note; since you do not consider us to be 'special' or a 'higher life form' as it were, does this mean that you would not consider human life to be worth more than that of an animal? Personally I would. ( I am not insinuating that you do not value human life, but this would have to be a consideration surely in not classifying humans as higher life forms).
I do not consider a human life to be worth more than that of an animal, on a purely theoretical basis.

Would I save the life of an animal over that of a human? Probably not, but then we can go into specifics circumstances. For example, you might be inclined to save a cow rather than a human being if you were stuck on a desert island as the cow has a greater use value (had to get Marx in here somewhere ) although conversation would be more tedious, but at least you would survive longer.

Even considering this most people (I imagine) would be inclined to save the human even though this may diminish the chances of survival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
-----------------------------
it was only my opinion.
-----------------------------
Right, this a forum for debate. I came here and gave my opinion on a matter and you replied. I am now replying to your reply. this is how it works. You challenge my opinion and I challenge yours. If you have a problem with that then I think you've picked the wrong forum.

Don't take it personally it is just a debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
And in respect to the
the Quote about the black slave trade. That has nuthing what so ever to do with animals so why bring it up?.

And of corce it dus not make it right just because we have dun it in the past.

I was saying i have eatin meat and always will i did not say it was ok to do it i just do because it was the way i was brought up.

but that is irelivent to the point.
I was just using it asan example. Just because something has gone in the past (i.e. the slave trade or people eating meat) it does not mean that it we should do it in the future. It is exactly the point, tradition is not always correct. If you were brought up in a neo-Nazi family it doesn't make it ok to be a racist. How you were brought is not a blanket excuse for your actions in the future.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 12:53   #34
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Re: Animal Rights

We've had this discussion many times before (if you have a look through the archives this could be in the top ten most discussed topics). But anyway, a few issues which I normally mention :

1. I would distinguish between 'pain' and 'suffering'. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting an animal can't feel pain, because usually that's defined to mean "sense damage / harm" or something like that. And as I usually point out, that doesn't mean an awful lot. An NPC in a computer game can sense when it is being "damaged" and can even cry out, if so programmed. Yet no-one (yet) calls for rights for NPCs. I suspect some idiot will though, and will use the same dismal line of argument as most animal rights advocates ("OMFG, it purred when I stroked it!!!")

But suffering is not sensing pain. Humans can suffer, animals & NPCs (I would suggest) cannot. They cannot think (in any meaningful sense) about pain, they cannot reflect on damage to them, there is no emotional response. And that is where I draw the line. I concede that in the future some scientific research could show some that (say) some primates do have the ability to "think" in the sense I am talking, but I won't hold my breath.

2. I would avoid terms like "higher" or "lower" in this sort of context. They're needlessly loaded terms. I have no idea what "higher life form" means but it doesn't sound like a very scientific term.

3. Saying things like "We're just animals" is pretty meaningless. You might as well say "We're just collections of atoms". It's true, in a sense, but it doesn't help us really answer the question of whether we should treat a lump of coal any different from a human being.

Otherwise, see my previous posts on this topic. In general I care a lot less about animal rights than I used to, although I do tend towards the belief that anyone who supports the prospect of rights for insects (or whatever) is probably borderline mentally ill. I concede this is grossly unfair however.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 14:35   #35
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
A lion is not capable of those higher thought functions which allow it to consider such an option. Can you hold a (non-human) creature to accout for its actions? No you cannot because it lacks the ability to reason.

this does not justify hunting lions for fun.
Animals have a higher thought process than you give them credit for. Just because they cannot speak or communicate on our level, does not mean that they cannot communicate. Zoologist and scientist have been communicating with monkeys and other primates for years using sign language, and have learned they are capable of communicating with us.

I can hold non-human animals accountable, I hold my dog accountable for peeing on the floor, he will hide after he does it because he know's it was wrong. Dogs and other animals even lions have been shown they have the ability to be trained, remember, and even be remorseful for actions, and don't tell me a dog won't try to reason you by giving you a cute look and doing tricks and other things to get you to overlook them doing something they weren't supposed to.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 19:04   #36
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Re: Animal Rights

Would you still oppose animal testing if you knew it could bring about a cure for a disease that affected you, or a family member?

Rights aren't real, you know. Society invented them. As such, it is up to society whether or not we extend them to non-human animals. I would rather see a cure for a human disease than see a rat happily frolicking in the undergrowth, regardless of 'what nature intended'.

My own personal take on this rights thing: Rights don't exist. If anyone had the intrinsic right to life, they would never die. What we DO have is an agreement among members of our society to not kill each other. If you don't believe in an objective moral construct, then we have no intrinsic responsibilities - all we have are the ones we agreed to when we accepted our place in this society, and the ones we impose an ourselves, eg not drinking, not shagging before marriage, vegetarianism. So all we end up with, apart from a small set of rules that we each apply to ourselves individually, is a set of rules that we all have to follow, and that set of rules is decided by society.

You say that you believe in a 'treat others how you would like to be treated' morality. That's really cute, but I think life isn't so black and white. I see people suffering with diseases that could be cured if we searched for a cure using animals.

On one hand, there are suffering humans. On the other, some suffering animals. Unless we can objectively decide who would be suffering more, the only difference between testing and not testing is that one is an action and the other an inaction, which makes no differnce, morally speaking. Then what?

The 'right' thing to do is a matter of opinion, and you are not involved (you're not doing the testing, being tested on, or in need of the cure), so what business is it of yours anyway? Undoubtably, you'll say you're a 'voice for the animals'. But you aren't really all that well qualified to speak on the matter, unless you, say, do research studying pain. Chances are you've never seen the inside of a lab. You just don't like the thought of cute likkle bunnies being cut open. And, tbh, the distress that thought causes you is nothing to the suffering of the humans who need treatments. There are people in our society willing to work on these treatments, so I say good luck to them. Obviously I am skimming somewhat over the issue of the animals' pain. I don't like them suffering either. But I like the thought of suffering humans even less. And at the end of the day, people and animals all over the world suffer all the time. All you're doing by stopping/allowing testing is redistributing that pain to ease suffering for part of the group. Mine's a vote for the humans. Yours is a vote for the animals. We'll have to beg to differ.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 19:14   #37
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
The 'right' thing to do is a matter of opinion, and you are not involved (you're not doing the testing, being tested on, or in need of the cure), so what business is it of yours anyway?
I really resent elitism, and the whole 'you have no right to an opinion argumentation'. Especially as the people using it generally come of as utter madmen to me.

Anyways, I assume you have no opinion whatsoever on a certain famous genocide commited during WWII? Or more relavant, the various medical trials the germans commited on gypsies, jews and other deviants? No qualms about them doing it again? It won't affect you directly, you know...

None of us live in a vacuum. People having opinions on issues that doesn't affect them directly is what's keeping democrazy here "working" (as opposed to the shambles that is democrazy in Russia or what's happended in Africa f.x.).
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 19:33   #38
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Would you still oppose animal testing if you knew it could bring about a cure for a disease that affected you, or a family member?
If I had a personal interest in the case I should have no say, it's like victims of crime deciding the punishment of criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Rights aren't real, you know. Society invented them. As such, it is up to society whether or not we extend them to non-human animals.
I have already stated I do not believe in objective right and wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
My own personal take on this rights thing: Rights don't exist. If anyone had the intrinsic right to life, they would never die. What we DO have is an agreement among members of our society to not kill each other. If you don't believe in an objective moral construct, then we have no intrinsic responsibilities - all we have are the ones we agreed to when we accepted our place in this society, and the ones we impose an ourselves, eg not drinking, not shagging before marriage, vegetarianism. So all we end up with, apart from a small set of rules that we each apply to ourselves individually, is a set of rules that we all have to follow, and that set of rules is decided by society.
So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
You say that you believe in a 'treat others how you would like to be treated' morality. That's really cute, but I think life isn't so black and white. I see people suffering with diseases that could be cured if we searched for a cure using animals.
I see people suffering with diseases that could be cured better and faster if we tested of the mentally defective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
On one hand, there are suffering humans. On the other, some suffering animals. Unless we can objectively decide who would be suffering more, the only difference between testing and not testing is that one is an action and the other an inaction, which makes no differnce, morally speaking. Then what?
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
The 'right' thing to do is a matter of opinion, and you are not involved (you're not doing the testing, being tested on, or in need of the cure), so what business is it of yours anyway?
I've not been a victim of torture either but I still have a opinion on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Undoubtably, you'll say you're a 'voice for the animals'.
Oh how well you know me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
But you aren't really all that well qualified to speak on the matter, unless you, say, do research studying pain.
Funnily enough I don't and I don't imagine you do either unless it's a spare time activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Chances are you've never seen the inside of a lab.
that is such an irrelevant point I don't see where you're going with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
You just don't like the thought of cute likkle bunnies being cut open. And, tbh, the distress that thought causes you is nothing to the suffering of the humans who need treatments.
Did you even read my first post? I honestly doubt you did. All this is a funadamentalist reaction to the title. I have already said I eat meat. I have said that I don't care enough to not eat meat nor to stop animal testing. this argument is about the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
There are people in our society willing to work on these treatments, so I say good luck to them.
Wow, people willing to inflict pain on other creatures, what heros!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Obviously I am skimming somewhat over the issue of the animals' pain. I don't like them suffering either. But I like the thought of suffering humans even less.
that is the core of my argument. Removing emotion (which is clearly something you are incapable of doing in scenario so you're argument becomes more or less invalid) I don't theoreticaly see people as an 'better' (another 'loaded word, sorry') then animas so which one suffers I don't realy care. You could apply some utilitarianism to this and say whatever causes the least suffering overall, but then we would have human testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
And at the end of the day, people and animals all over the world suffer all the time. All you're doing by stopping/allowing testing is redistributing that pain to ease suffering for part of the group. Mine's a vote for the humans. Yours is a vote for the animals. We'll have to beg to differ.
I really don't understand why you've even brought up testing (except to have a good old rant) when it's a side issue at best and has absolutly nothing to do with my original point nor the vast majority of points I've made after it. In fact there is only one post in which I've mentioned it (briefly) and that was in response to someone elses comments.

Quite frankly I find your entire response to be emotional drivel, completely condescending and patronising and I I shall no longer be conversing with you on this (or any other) matter because this is not a one-off this is acommon theme in your posting.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 19:51   #39
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Would you still oppose animal testing if you knew it could bring about a cure for a disease that affected you, or a family member?
no i would not be agenst it if it will save a famly or freand life i think eny one ould yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifer
Rights aren't real, you know. Society invented them.
As such, it is up to society whether or not we extend them to non-human animals
teknicly you are corect thay wer not real untill me invented them to make life a more hapy one and now thay are the law and animals do have right's
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifer
I would rather see a cure for a human disease than see a rat happily frolicking in the undergrowth, regardless of 'what nature intended'.
i personaly do not like rats but that dus not mean thay have no rights



Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifer
My own personal take on this rights thing: Rights don't exist. If anyone had the intrinsic right to life, they would never die.
WRONG no mater if we had the right or not the only thing certen in life is that you die


Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifer
What we DO have is an agreement among members of our society to not kill each other. If you don't believe in an objective moral construct, then we have no intrinsic responsibilities - all we have are the ones we agreed to when we accepted our place in this society, and the ones we impose an ourselves,
no thats cald the law

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifer
eg not drinking, not shagging before marriage, vegetarianism. So all we end up with, apart from a small set of rules that we each apply to ourselves individually, is a set of rules that we all have to follow, and that set of rules is decided by society.
thats cald your morals


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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 20:14   #40
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Re: Animal Rights

I really don't want to go through this whole thread and pick out everything that's madness, so I'll just choose a random quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
WRONG no mater if we had the right or not the only thing certen in life is that you die
I don't think you understood the argument. If rights were inherent in the universe, then death would not be certain.

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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 20:17   #41
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Re: Animal Rights

well aculy do you onisly think that eny one just because thay want to can live for ever. No thay canot

as in this universce/planet every thing dies eventuly. wich is the basis of

the only thing certen in life is death (we all have to die some time )itis a mater of time and thats it

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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 20:20   #42
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by neptis arcos
well aculy do you onisly think that eny one just because thay want to can live for ever. No thay canot
Right. Not desire.

Right.

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Originally Posted by neptis arcos
as in this universce/planet every thing dies eventuly. wich is the basis of
A sentence fragment?
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 20:40   #43
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Wow, people willing to inflict pain on other creatures, what heros!
Well, maybe not heroes in the traditional sense, but given the rather hysterical attachment we have in this country to animals and the very real physical danger that researchers are put under by animal rights activists, I'd certainly say to be involved in animal testing takes a great deal of courage, yes.

Very similarly to this, I'd say that doctors in the United States who carry out abortions are certainly being brave (given the political climate over there). You might respond "What, slaughtering the unborn - yeah what heroes!" but then that would reveal a philosophical difference. Either way, I think we should agree that people who do a job in very difficult circumstances are probably not just being pointless sadists or murderers for the sake of it.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 21:08   #44
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, maybe not heroes in the traditional sense, but given the rather hysterical attachment we have in this country to animals and the very real physical danger that researchers are put under by animal rights activists, I'd certainly say to be involved in animal testing takes a great deal of courage, yes.

Very similarly to this, I'd say that doctors in the United States who carry out abortions are certainly being brave (given the political climate over there). You might respond "What, slaughtering the unborn - yeah what heroes!" but then that would reveal a philosophical difference. Either way, I think we should agree that people who do a job in very difficult circumstances are probably not just being pointless sadists or murderers for the sake of it.
I must admit that that particular comment was more a reaction against the irrelevent nature of the comment which has absolutly nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

there were so many of these contained in that one post that it really started to get on my nerves andmade a sarcastic comment.

It really reads like it was written about a completely different topic and accidently pasted here due to an administrative error.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 21:18   #45
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
The 'right' thing to do is a matter of opinion, and you are not involved (you're not doing the testing, being tested on, or in need of the cure), so what business is it of yours anyway? Undoubtably, you'll say you're a 'voice for the animals'. But you aren't really all that well qualified to speak on the matter, unless you, say, do research studying pain. Chances are you've never seen the inside of a lab. You just don't like the thought of cute likkle bunnies being cut open. And, tbh, the distress that thought causes you is nothing to the suffering of the humans who need treatments
Personally I dont have a problem with breeding human babies specifically for the purpose of medical experimentation, which I justify on the grounds that a) for many drugs, testing on babies is likely to yield results that scale up more accurately to adults than animal testing, b) it would be _really_ helpful for invasive neuroscientific research (as would experimentation on criminals who have been convicted of serious crimes, which we should also be doing), and c) babies generally arent thought to be self-aware during the first year of their life anyway, so it's doubtful that they could 'suffer' anymore than a rat could (ie they could feel the sensation of pain, but there probably isnt the sense of selfhood that would be required for actual suffering) Pretty much all of your arguments here still work if you replace 'animals' with 'babies' ("you arent involved so you dont get an opinion" etc etc), so I assume you wouldnt have a problem with this either?

(I'm not even doing a devil's advocate thing here, I'm serious)

Last edited by Nodrog; 4 Aug 2006 at 21:27.
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 21:30   #46
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Personally I dont have a problem with breeding human babies specifically for the purpose of medical experimentation,
Just posting to say I'm inclined to agree.

Dogs >>> Babies
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 22:59   #47
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Re: Animal Rights

What about insect rights?

What about microbe rights?

You are right, we do have the ability to chose. I chose to eat animals, wear animals, test on animals.

It is in my nature.
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Unread 5 Aug 2006, 00:16   #48
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Re: Animal Rights

somewhere the logic of

'do as you would like to be done to'

'we are animals'

'treat animals like humans'

fails at the point that because we are animals, we can simply use and abuse other animals to our liking as they would do to us if they were in that position.
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Unread 5 Aug 2006, 00:45   #49
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Re: Animal Rights

Why are you not more concerned with the rate of abortions?
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Unread 5 Aug 2006, 01:14   #50
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Re: Animal Rights

I don't like the idea of testing on human babies, but thinking about it in a detached and objective point of view, no, I don't see the problem. I reserve the right to feel horrible about the thought of doing something, even if I can find nothing objectively wrong with it.

As far as the question of whether or not we should allow it goes, I think the consensus among people in society is that too many people would feel uncomfortable with it for us to allow it. I derive that in the same way we arrive at 'thou shalt not commit murder'. I don't believe it is objectively wrong, because I don't believe in objective morals, but it's 'wrong' in society because one hell of a lot of people don't like it.
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