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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:01   #51
Flavius
 
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
Hay guys, I found the problem!!!
But .. how is this possible?

I've always heard "they" (the muslims) were terrorist, extremist suicide bombers who all put their children forward when under attack. I was also under the impression they have a stash of lighters and american flags at home to burn at every single protest, and that they're jobless people who sleep all day.

Just like the Americans are idiots, the French are arrogant and the British are stuck up.


Oh wa
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:02   #52
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
This should be our primary weapon in trying to achieve peace in the islamic world.
There's not enough to go round
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:03   #53
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Don't apologise for that. Apologise for the fact it's generalising, misinterpreting bullshit with invective verging on the pathetic.

Feel free to provide a counter position based on personal experience, rather than attempt to demean a response via one word putdowns Nod was doing 5 years ago with more impact and less alcohol.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:03   #54
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddley_Battleship
I'm well aware of that, I just think it is suicidal to let in millions of people that have no loyalty to our countries whatsoever, and just want to come here to 'Islamify' us, and get the free handouts. We shouldn't have to suffer the monetary cost of welfare as well as the risk of them blowing themselves up on public transport because they're incapable of creating a real country on their own. We have a right to stay culturally unique as well, especially European countries. Do you want Europe and North America to look like the Middle East or Mexico? That's exactly what will happen at this rate. Don't call me names, admit it. It's true.
I'll admit that Europe has as much right to remain culturally unique as it has gunpowder to make it so.*







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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:13   #55
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Feel free to provide a counter position based on personal experience, rather than attempt to demean a response via one word putdowns Nod was doing 5 years ago with more impact and less alcohol.
Are you asking me if I've met a muslim who doesn't attack anything considered anti-islamic under the most extreme muslim teachings? Can't you read flavius' posts in this thread yourself?

To dissect your post more completely the words "clubbed together" implies a more imaginary union than exists. We don't say christians are just "clubbed together". They're all christians with certain things in common much like they're all muslims with certain things in common. However there are obvious difficulties with any large group speaking with one voice as differences in human nature, preferences and ideals are unavoidable. "Warring tribes" is just wrong and attributes nationalistic characteristics which just don't exist. We don't say the french and the british are warring tribes just because they disagree on points of policy in the EU. "no cohesion other than when there's an attack on their faith" is silly on many levels. Of course there's some cohesion, otherwise we wouldn't have a name for the group. It also implies a narrow-minded and uneducated approach on a vast number of peoples' parts for which you have no proof whatsoever. "like a pack of wild dogs" is a ****ing disgrace of a phrase and really pushed me over the edge. You just compared one and a half billion individuals to a group of aggressive unreasoning wild animals. **** off.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:15   #56
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

The Kuran is just as demented as the bible.

For example:

2:99: "We have sent down to you clear revelations: none will deny them except the evil-doers."

There's a bit that shows that everyone who isn't Islamic is evil.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:16   #57
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

I was just on the phone with the gf. Those who attacked the embassy are the radical Sunni extremists, and some of them were actually the 'gipsies' (syrian and palestinians who live there), and Al Qaeda supporters. They are using the Danish cartoons as a reason to fight, but what they are actually doing is stealing and destroying lebanese property.

edit: On thursday, the Hezbollah of Lebanon will have a peaceful demonstration supporting the Prophet and his family, against the cartoons. This will show the world that the burning of embassies and whatever has nothing to do with Islam, but to do with extremism.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:19   #58
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
None will give you a straight answer, no matter how extreme or "moderate" they are. If they say they do, they are going to hell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
I have.
1- My gf, her mother
2- An argelian friend of my father, and his wife (belgian woman who converted to Islam)

From what I have been told by the people I asked, mentioned above, the Qu'ran states that all three major religions come from the same God, and that they must respect eachother.
Yeh, the same God being their Allah.

That doesn't sound like a straight answer to me.

Ask them if they respect Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Jewish people's beliefs, then come back and call me an idiot.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:22   #59
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Yeh, the same God being their Allah.

That doesn't sound like a straight answer to me.

Ask them if they respect Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Jewish people's beliefs, then come back and call me an idiot.
idiot



edit: "We respect the religions of our book, being Christianity and Judaism, since they are stated in the Qu'ran as being 'people of the book'. They are brothers in humanity. If we hate Christians or Jews, we are not Muslims. If we don't respect Jesus or Abraham or Moses and all the prophets in our book, that means we do not respect our own Prophet. If we insult Christians we are insulting ourselfs, since these are the people in the book."
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:34   #60
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
idiot



edit: "We respect the religions of our book, being Christianity and Judaism, since they are stated in the Qu'ran as being 'people of the book'. They are brothers in humanity. If we hate Christians or Jews, we are not Muslims. If we don't respect Jesus or Abraham or Moses and all the prophets in our book, that means we do not respect our own Prophet. If we insult Christians we are insulting ourselfs, since these are the people in the book."

Respect.

We must know very different people.

How about Hindus, Sikhs and Buddists or Gays ( a religion followed by many GDers)?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:36   #61
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Hereby declaring the formation of the religion of "No Arachnidmen".











And no, we're not allowed one.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:36   #62
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
I always have to ask the following when someone uses this answer.

"If there is such a huge majority of moderate muslims who do not condone the actions of these extremists, why is it they never actually do anything about it"

Theres a difference between "Moderate" and "Supressed". Is it that this modern majority of moderate muslims are, quite simply, too shit scared to stand up to the extremists for fear of being labelled Anti-Muslim (with us or against us, rather like the US is currently portraying itself in the western world).

?

Are you that naive that you think the Western media would show any positive views of Islam right now? If you have access to any Arab TV, please tune in right now and see the Hezbollah leader and the main Shi'ite leader condoning what the extremist people are doing. They are holding Islam hostage to terrorism, and doing exactly what the cartoons depict.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:37   #63
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

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Originally Posted by Arachnidman
How about Hindus, Sikhs and Buddists or Gays ( a religion followed by many GDers)?
idiot
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:38   #64
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

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Originally Posted by Flavius
idiot
why?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:40   #65
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

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Originally Posted by Arachnidman
why?
Gays? a religion?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:42   #66
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Arachinidman has a point. The Qu'ran protects jews and christians, but only those. Others, like atheists, hindus, buddist, various smaller islamic variations and so on, is not protected.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:43   #67
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Arachinidman has a point. The Qu'ran protects jews and christians, but only those. Others, like atheists, hindus, buddist, various smaller islamic variations and so on, is not protected.
What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:44   #68
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
Are you that naive that you think the Western media would show any positive views of Islam right now? If you have access to any Arab TV, please tune in right now and see the Hezbollah leader and the main Shi'ite leader condoning what the extremist people are doing. They are holding Islam hostage to terrorism, and doing exactly what the cartoons depict.
Ofcourse they don't just say what suits them best, like other political leaders.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:45   #69
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Arachinidman has a point. The Qu'ran protects jews and christians, but only those. Others, like atheists, hindus, buddist, various smaller islamic variations and so on, is not protected.
That's mainly because a book written fourteen hundred years ago is rather unlikely to give protection to groups that were either very small or had very little contact with the writers of the book.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:56   #70
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Does that mean that Muslims now shouldn't regard Buddists or Hindus or Sikhs as human beings or show them any respect at all?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:57   #71
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
It's just an interesting point that has stemmed as a result of the original topic. What are your thoughts?

Are atheists, hindus, sikhs etc "respected" in Islam, even though they aren't "people of the book" ?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:58   #72
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Does that mean that Muslims now shouldn't regard Buddists or Hindus or Sikhs as human beings or show them any respect at all?
No, but it means they shouldn't share their apple pie with them.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 22:59   #73
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
It's just an interesting point that has stemmed as a result of the original topic. What are your thoughts?

Are atheists, hindus, sikhs etc "respected" in Islam, even though they aren't "people of the book" ?
"they are equal in humanity. we have no right to go attacking them if they dont do anything to us"

also

"let this person. who is going on and on about respect. shoot himself in the foot. the freedom of press that the danish newspaper is using to justify its action,...................is that respect?"
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:01   #74
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That's mainly because a book written fourteen hundred years ago is rather unlikely to give protection to groups that were either very small or had very little contact with the writers of the book.
Indeed. But sadly fundamentalists are reading the Qu'ran or the Bible by the letter
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:03   #75
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
"they are equal in humanity. we have no right to go attacking them if they dont do anything to us"

also

"let this person. who is going on and on about respect. the freedom of press that the danish newspaper is using to justify its action,...................is that respect?"
I do believe Denmark have showed a lack of respect and it was quite insensetive to show the cartoons.

When that person says "don't do anything to us" what does that mean exactly?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:05   #76
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Also, how are "people of the book" and "people not of the book" different, in terms of their rights, and the Muslim view of them etc?

Thanks for answering these by the way, its nice to get some actual insight.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:07   #77
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Indeed. But sadly fundamentalists are reading the Qu'ran or the Bible by the letter
That's what fundamentalists do unfortunately.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:09   #78
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I do believe Denmark have showed a lack of respect and it was quite insensetive to show the cartoons.

When that person says "don't do anything to us" what does that mean exactly?
do I really need to explain? She's referring to violence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Also, how are "people of the book" and "people not of the book" different, in terms of their rights, and the Muslim view of them etc?

Thanks for answering these by the way, its nice to get some actual insight.
Like in any other religion. Believers and non-believers.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:11   #79
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I do believe Denmark have showed a lack of respect and it was quite insensetive to show the cartoons.

When that person says "don't do anything to us" what does that mean exactly?
Yes Denmark, the nation, has shown a lack of respect because it didn't breach the free expression rights of its citizens for the sake of angry religous mobs burning down buildings.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:14   #80
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
do I really need to explain? She's referring to violence.
What's the scope of this, i.e. if an Israeli killed a palestinian boy, should all Israelis die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
do I really need to explain? She's referring to violence.
Like in any other religion. Believers and non-believers.
So people of the book (as you say, Muslims, Christians and Jews) are believers of Islam?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:15   #81
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Yes Denmark, the nation, has shown a lack of respect because it didn't breach the free expression rights of its citizens for the sake of angry religous mobs burning down buildings.
It was a lack of respect, but the reaction is an even bigger (more ridiculous) lack of respect.

Ultimately, Denmark wins, but I can see why people were pissed off. The people who are now violent don't deserve any respect at all.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:16   #82
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
What's the scope of this, i.e. if an Israeli killed a palestinian boy, should all Israelis die?



So people of the book (as you say, Muslims, Christians and Jews) are believers of Islam?
1- What are you smoking?
2- They are not believers of Islam but at least they are believers of the one God.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 23:17   #83
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
It was a lack of respect, but the reaction is an even bigger (more ridiculous) lack of respect.

Ultimately, Denmark wins, but I can see why people were pissed off. The people who are now violent don't deserve any respect at all.
I think he meant that Denmark did nothing. Some poeple of a newspaper did, and they are to blame. The reactions from the other side were horrible and unfounded as we have agreed on this thread.
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 21:01   #84
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Sums it up?
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 21:48   #85
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Is probably a less redundant description of the problem, but both are good.
(and Flav, a few posts back you wrote 'condone' when I think you meant 'condemn')
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 21:56   #86
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
Is probably a less redundant description of the problem, but both are good.
(and Flav, a few posts back you wrote 'condone' when I think you meant 'condemn')
yup. Thanks SYMM
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 22:06   #87
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

We will see if the story of the additional 3 or 4 cartoons which where supposedly the main reason of the uproar will prove true during the following days. If it proves true and also whats beeing said so far about their source, that could give the whole question about "respect" an interesting new point of view.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 13:02   #88
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

The situation has no solutions and no one root. When it comes down to it, you cant argue against people who wont use logic. Those who still live their lives by a religious code which has been manufactured to keep people down, are sadly infatuated by these lies, be they christian or muslim. Im never going to convince you theres no god or no allah, mores the pity, so i wont try. But thats where the problem lies
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 14:28   #89
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
edit: On thursday, the Hezbollah of Lebanon will have a peaceful demonstration supporting the Prophet and his family, against the cartoons. This will show the world that the burning of embassies and whatever has nothing to do with Islam, but to do with extremism.
as promised.

Now, will someone please call these 700 000 people terrorists, or "warring tribes with no cohesion other than when theres an attack on their faith, at which time they attack like a pack of wild dogs".
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 14:36   #90
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

lol flavius is dating a muslim terrorist lol.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 14:40   #91
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

lol koen koen koen, koen koen! koen
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 14:46   #92
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

"At your service, oh Mohammed, at your service, oh Prophet of God," the crowds chanted with fists raised. "Death to America, Death to Israel."
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 16:44   #93
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
Now, will someone please call these 700 000 people terrorists, or "warring tribes with no cohesion other than when theres an attack on their faith, at which time they attack like a pack of wild dogs".
I'll call them spastics with the minds of children for believing in God. Does that help?
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 18:32   #94
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Ok, folks, I hate to add a little relaity to this debate, but, here's the facts:

Point 1
The Islamic world is in a stage of it's development now that such things as Terrorism and Jihad are inevitable. A human, by himself is a thinking creature, intelligent and capable. Humans in groups are unruly protoplasma who knnow only stimulus-response, and as such, are prone to follow the same patterns as other groups before them. Now, Islam is coming up to it's 1000'th year, and where was Christianity after 1000 years? Jihad might be compared to the Holy Crusades, 1000 years later. Terrorism could be seen as similar to the inquisitions, 1000 years later. And before you re-post about how scientifically and culturally enlightened the Islamic world was around the 12th century, remember how enlightened Christian Rome and Constantinople were in the second century. If this pattern continues, we won't see a "chilled out" Islam in 100 years, more like 900.

Now, don't interprit this post as support for the ways muslims have been behaving... Personally, I think a few ICBM's would relieve me of these worries, while at the same time, giving Russia and India a LOT more parking space . I know, however that this solution is stupid and pollitically impossible, so we'll have to deal with the situation as it is.

Point 2
Yes the protests are contrived... why do you think the signs are written in english? Duh!

And Finally
This Debate is entirely about religion, as religion, by it's nature, attempts to constrain people into proscribed patterns of behaviour. I am not against religion ( I am a Christian) But religion has always been in conflict with freedom. For this reason, the two (religion and freedom) cannot coexist unless religion is a free decision by each individual. The attacks against the cartoons are an attempt by a religion to force people to thier own viewpoint, and as such MUST BE RESISTED by anyone who supports freedom.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 18:42   #95
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I do believe Denmark have showed a lack of respect and it was quite insensetive to show the cartoons.
Ok, have you lost your mind... DENMARK DIDN'T SHOW THE CARTOONS!!!! A newspaper did. But these douschebags decide to burn down danish embassies? Who's doing the overgeneralization, I ask you?
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 18:47   #96
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
The situation has no solutions and no one root. When it comes down to it, you cant argue against people who wont use logic. Those who still live their lives by a religious code which has been manufactured to keep people down, are sadly infatuated by these lies, be they christian or muslim. Im never going to convince you theres no god or no allah, mores the pity, so i wont try. But thats where the problem lies

Unfortunately, there are solutions... but the only one that will work is Voilence. We in the West are reluctant to apply this solution, whereas they are not... therefore, eventually, we will loose, unless George Bush's policies keep going, and I know I'm going to get flamed for even mentioning that. Well, I'll sacrifice rep for truth.

Unfortunately, peace only happens after someone fights for it
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Last edited by Bromcrysal; 9 Feb 2006 at 18:53.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 19:26   #97
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

I have my own business and employ people, I would never employ a Muslim not even a "moderate" one. I am not too keen on undertaking work for them either, but when I do I always get my fees up front, been stung once, wont happen again.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 20:44   #98
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'll call them spastics with the minds of children for believing in God. Does that help?
What's so wrong in believing in God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
I have my own business and employ people, I would never employ a Muslim not even a "moderate" one. I am not too keen on undertaking work for them either, but when I do I always get my fees up front, been stung once, wont happen again.
I would never work for an Italian since they don't pay on it, if at all.

Your point being?
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 20:48   #99
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
What's so wrong in believing in God?
It's an artifact of an earlier stage of human evolution. Believing in god is like having faith that your appendix is necessary for you to have any happiness in life.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 21:02   #100
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Re: Jihad. Reality or Stage-Managed Psychological Warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's an artifact of an earlier stage of human evolution. Believing in god is like having faith that your appendix is necessary for you to have any happiness in life.
So?

I think it's a pretty good way to live life.
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