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Unread 1 May 2009, 12:37   #51
[JungleMuffin]
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by LordNieminen View Post
so hmm.. You think the game is balanced right if you need emp for everything.. aka attacking partner and defencive partner aswell.. ?
The other calcs didnt have emp. You dont need emp. It was used to convey a point. As where the other calcs, which im unsure if you looked at?

As for needing a defense partner: You dont need one at all, but if youre chosing to def against an attack fleet specifically designed to kill the ship you are using (not an extremely efficient idea...), then yes, you might certainly need help to cover it. If attackers need to team to land anything, then why should defense be any different?

I think the expectation to cover attacks, in the least efficient way possible, and expect do gain score from it, illustrates just how over the top last rounds salvage ratios where.

Imo, salvage is reasonable.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 13:29   #52
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

To chip in (and ignoring a lot of the discussion so i apologise if i've repeated other posts here) my view is that the curtailing of the salvage to this level was probably excessive. I think of the BR's JBG showed this is the most offensive:

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kizr1xtxoeg1uu

Battles like this should be a small loss at worst, as you shouldn't be heavily punished for what is fundamentally, shit play by your opposition. To suggest that a heavy loss (and that's exactly what this is) is justifiable in that scenario is very questionable in my view. I can understand why there should be a loss perhaps, as a good solo fleet however small might get a few shots off and the engine should reflect that.

The fact that Ascendancy won by defending wasn't particularly clever and wasn't down to the salvage formula being exploited (we went all out defence to demoralise our opponents) but more to some terrible discipline by our opponents who deserved everything they got for playing like that. The round length also helped to exaggerate this massively as there were bigger fleets to crash, and more crashes probably because weaker players get fed up and less disciplined.

I think a slight adjustment upwards in the salvage formula will probably result in a happy compromise.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 13:50   #53
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
To chip in (and ignoring a lot of the discussion so i apologise if i've repeated other posts here) my view is that the curtailing of the salvage to this level was probably excessive. I think of the BR's JBG showed this is the most offensive:

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kizr1xtxoeg1uu

Battles like this should be a small loss at worst, as you shouldn't be heavily punished for what is fundamentally, shit play by your opposition. To suggest that a heavy loss (and that's exactly what this is) is justifiable in that scenario is very questionable in my view. I can understand why there should be a loss perhaps, as a good solo fleet however small might get a few shots off and the engine should reflect that.

The fact that Ascendancy won by defending wasn't particularly clever and wasn't down to the salvage formula being exploited (we went all out defence to demoralise our opponents) but more to some terrible discipline by our opponents who deserved everything they got for playing like that. The round length also helped to exaggerate this massively as there were bigger fleets to crash, and more crashes probably because weaker players get fed up and less disciplined.

I think a slight adjustment upwards in the salvage formula will probably result in a happy compromise.
I think the problem isnt with the combat engine, but with the players using it. Did you look at my previous calcs?
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Can people please stop pretending they have no chance of winning at tick 300, you just end up looking retarded later.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 14:04   #54
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

There wasn't any problem with the previous salvage percentages.

Because of the salvage 'donations' at the end of last round (which weren't enforced through MH as any sort of foul play) people whined about it--and guess what, it got changed.

The percentages will change for next round. Probably something in between what they were last round, and what they are now.
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Unread 1 May 2009, 14:08   #55
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
There wasn't any problem with the previous salvage percentages.

Because of the salvage 'donations' at the end of last round (which weren't enforced through MH as any sort of foul play) people whined about it--and guess what, it got changed.

The percentages will change for next round. Probably something in between what they were last round, and what they are now.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...3&postcount=16
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Unread 2 May 2009, 15:15   #56
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

A lot of this is about how people play the game. Some people think attacking should be easy to do. So we get prelaunch, low salvage rates, 1 tick defending etc. This is fair enough. Defending well is pretty hard to do and if you get it badly wrong you're probably better off not even attempting it. Obviously, and we've seen it mentioned elsewhere, a lot of people think that activity should not be rewarded (predominately it's not phrased like this but that's the general opinion). That's fair enough too, it's not that it's really a flaw in the game. The reality is that dcs use the ships they're given, and quite often that's not that much at all. I'm not writing this post from my perspective, despite what wish mentioned earlier really, ascendancy aren't going to be the ones who fail to defend. What you're going to find is that the lower alliances gradually stop defending because the core of players there who do often defend will either become small, due to insignificant salvage gains and quite often losses, while defending or they'll become slightly big and worry that their fleets will be destroyed in battles defending small planets that couldn't possibly defend them back when they get incoming.

Attacking is fairly interesting but defence is where the bonds that build alliances are formed. The guy who books first wave ahead of you is just some dude who's capping roids that you could have stolen. The guy who defends you with his fleet is your brother who gave up his chance of attacking to save your ass. Both will contribute to alliance score. Which type of behaviour you think is the way forward for planetarion is up to you.
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Unread 2 May 2009, 15:26   #57
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

I can't really build or add on to what's already been said - I'd just be mimicking what everyone's already been saying.

Just to post my approval for fixing the salvage, since every defence calc I've done so far this round has looked ridiculously horrible for both sides and I can't see how that is rewarding for defenders who could be out gaining roids like every other selfish bastard
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Unread 10 May 2009, 10:56   #58
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5c1txq4s3zhyeh

Its called emp def.

With 5 tick def, 50% of the uni cat+xan, that calc is more than reasonable.

Or if u dont like EMP def, try this one

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...l2bnfx8twedabc

or this one

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kn2cd58w7r4z9x

or this one

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...lcuigcas5nn8jk


I think you get the point.

Dont hate the salvage formula, hate the guy who cant DC.

In my opinion this says it all. "People" and ill put JBG in that category here, seem pissed because ships they "wish" to defend with in their possible build plans aren't necessarily the best option to defend with. The stats have been made with x number of ships, just because alliances choose to follow a certain route reducing the number of these they use shouldn't mean that this is the perfect attack and defence strategy.

Jungle has clearly shown how the stats offer the tools to effectively utilise the salvage system so where is the problem? Like I said is this simply because the ships alliances "wish" to defend with aren't the best? in that case, it is simply your own fault for relying on set methods of play without looking at the bigger picture.

If you use sub optimum defence fleets vs an attack, expect sub optimum results.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 11:21   #59
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Then im sure they would ask people to build ships which give some effective salvage instead of throwing fleets at a calc that lose in the hope of "scaring off" an attacker? who may or may not be able to recall anyway. Reduced salvage is fine, lets face it. You just cant use conventional build plan ships and you are shitting the bed because you cant spam a defence with sub optimal fleets with salvage gains to compensate as per last round.

YES its an example you used, but its an example which highlights the pure useless shit of bomber in that scenario. But YOU chose to defend with them, YOUR players chose to build those ships, likely based on an alliance decision. Its what gives a balance in the game. There are ships out there better at a specific job than others, just because players within an alliance or even solo defending etc chose not to build them doesn't mean it is the fault of salvage system not giving back enough.

The old salvage system made it so mediocre sub optimal defences could still produce positive value gains. But I fail to see why? why should the battle not be hard fought and bloody if you aren't using the best ship for it? why should it be a salvage fest if you just spam enough of a ship that isnt cut out for the job? Why shouldn't there be a mentality in the game of if i want to steam roll over his fleet and 100% wipe him from the game im going to have to lose some value here in my defence.

p.s. id be interested to see your additional defence planets signups idea to really exploit what im failing to see here.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 11:48   #60
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Attacking is fairly interesting but defence is where the bonds that build alliances are formed. The guy who books first wave ahead of you is just some dude who's capping roids that you could have stolen. The guy who defends you with his fleet is your brother who gave up his chance of attacking to save your ass. Both will contribute to alliance score. Which type of behaviour you think is the way forward for planetarion is up to you.
I'm just requoting this paragraph because people might have skimmed over it and it's relevant/important/super!.

(i'm not sure if increased salvage is the key to improved defence though - perhaps more XP from it would encourage people to do it? who knows!)
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Unread 10 May 2009, 12:13   #61
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Tomkat View Post
.
(i'm not sure if increased salvage is the key to improved defence though - perhaps more XP from it would encourage people to do it? who knows!)
It always seemed somewhat iniquitous that attacks can get thousands in xp while a defence is capped to 300+ 90 or so. Not that im encouraging suicidal defences; perhaps there should be more xp for defending smaller planets to compensate for the fact they are otherwise less worth defending.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 12:20   #62
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Then im sure they would ask people to build ships which give some effective salvage instead of throwing fleets at a calc that lose in the hope of "scaring off" an attacker? who may or may not be able to recall anyway. Reduced salvage is fine, lets face it. You just cant use conventional build plan ships and you are shitting the bed because you cant spam a defence with sub optimal fleets with salvage gains to compensate as per last round.
I think you're missing the point. If you kill someone's entire fleet the defence isn't sub-optimal. That a defence where you can kill someone's entire fleet can still be a shitty def is just annoying and it won't encourage people to defend. Losing out just because the other guy is an idiot isn't interesting or realistic or anything of the sort. It's just a big pile of **** this I'm going to solo some newbie for 100 roids instead of defending you. And this isn't about ascendancy, we're not the ones who have a problem defending. And I'm lolling at your bitterness about last round. If it was so easy for us to spam defences with sub-optimal fleets and compensate with overpowered salvage why couldn't you do it? It certainly wasn't the lack of sub-optimal fleets in ct!
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Unread 10 May 2009, 12:48   #63
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Sorry JBG but I never referred to ascendancy in my post so lets not make it about that, I infact made sure I kept it to "your" alliance since you aren't the only one with the view of salvage being shit atm and to be fair there is no bitterness of last round its not like its been ascendancys first win.

So you are basically arguing that because you send a ship to defend which has a higher init than that of the attacker that the defence should some how be rewarded all its value back and then maybe some more because it has the potential to kill 100% of the attackers? or atleast, it shouldn't seem such a pointless effort if you are going to get dicked hard by defending.

I think without us actually being able to quantify what salvage actually is rather than it just being resources you can not possibly allow defenders to regain all + a bit extra if the defenders get fired on first.

The "why should I bother when I can solo a 100 roid planet" seems a bit out of place in your post since you are arguing on the defence side in this thread and then switching to lets attack. I thought thats what everyone had tried to encourage in pa? more attacking in an attack based game? Like I said before, there are the tools there in the stats to be able to gain a CLEAN kill, where you should be rewarded fully + then some. But when you are using ships that have to take a hit first (especially paper ships like xan with a typical low armour) then what realisticly should you expect?

If we want to turn this in to a "whats the point in defending" thread. Then in my opinion look else where because currently salvage seems to be a pretty adequate reflection of what the scenario should be. But at the end of the day people can always turn out the "If you want to keep your roids then you have to defend" statement. Fighting wont be pretty but rewarding defence with unrealistic salvage gains when they have been shot at first is just stupid and like I said before, especially when using the example of bomber which is pure junk.


Oh and in regards to londo/the other dude on xp. What potential does a defence system which is an exact mirror of attacks have? Just wanted to hear some ideas of how it would work. In my opinion if there were some way of producing a bravery factor for defending attacks it might make defence more worth while if people aren't currently happy I dont know how exploitable that would be though. Likely too easy as usual =p

further edit: Thought i would clarify what i meant about not being able to quantify salvage. Why does this have to be a set %? surely it should be completely random as to how much of killed ships should be made recoverable afterall some things just arent. Would it send the whole game in to complete turmoil if there was a random put in to calculate defence, with boundaries set between current % and old % ?
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Unread 10 May 2009, 13:12   #64
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Sorry JBG but I never referred to ascendancy in my post so lets not make it about that, I infact made sure I kept it to "your" alliance since you aren't the only one with the view of salvage being shit atm and to be fair there is no bitterness of last round its not like its been ascendancys first win.
You used the word "you" three times in one sentence and then referred to last round. Considering 90%+ of the complaints on salvage being overpowered were about ascendancy I fail to see how I can interpret it in any other way. Regardless my point stands, defending last round was not easy.

Quote:
So you are basically arguing that because you send a ship to defend which has a higher init than that of the attacker that the defence should some how be rewarded all its value back and then maybe some more because it has the potential to kill 100% of the attackers? or atleast, it shouldn't seem such a pointless effort if you are going to get dicked hard by defending.
I'd be perfectly happy with the fleet staying alive, no need for value gains

Quote:
I think without us actually being able to quantify what salvage actually is rather than it just being resources you can not possibly allow defenders to regain all + a bit extra if the defenders get fired on first.
What the hell, that's even possible to do now.

Quote:
The "why should I bother when I can solo a 100 roid planet" seems a bit out of place in your post since you are arguing on the defence side in this thread and then switching to lets attack. I thought thats what everyone had tried to encourage in pa? more attacking in an attack based game? Like I said before, there are the tools there in the stats to be able to gain a CLEAN kill, where you should be rewarded fully + then some. But when you are using ships that have to take a hit first (especially paper ships like xan with a typical low armour) then what realisticly should you expect?
I'm not trying to encourage attacking. I think they made attacking retardedly easy enough already. It's not an attack based game either. It's a war game, attack and defence. And my point is if defence isn't efficient eventually people will just constantly attack. I've played rounds like that. They're not interesting. And yeah it's possible to carefully craft a defence which will gain value. That doesn't happen though. If you don't know that then you're so far out of touch with the state of the game that I really don't know what to say.

Quote:
If we want to turn this in to a "whats the point in defending" thread. Then in my opinion look else where because currently salvage seems to be a pretty adequate reflection of what the scenario should be. But at the end of the day people can always turn out the "If you want to keep your roids then you have to defend" statement. Fighting wont be pretty but rewarding defence with unrealistic salvage gains when they have been shot at first is just stupid and like I said before, especially when using the example of bomber which is pure junk.
I wouldn't say reward. I'd say break even. I mean if I login, I have my fleet and I can either use it to attack and either gain roids or at least not lose my fleet or I can give it to the dc where it could easily die in defence (because dcs use what they're offered). I know which one I'll be doing if I'm in a midranked alliance without that much to play for.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 13:31   #65
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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I'd be perfectly happy with the fleet staying alive, no need for value gains
Then that is an issue with the salvage system full stop, not your argument of changing it back to last rounds setup.

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What the hell, that's even possible to do now.
This was in reference to your bombers calc.

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I'm not trying to encourage attacking. I think they made attacking retardedly easy enough already. It's not an attack based game either. It's a war game, attack and defence. And my point is if defence isn't efficient eventually people will just constantly attack. I've played rounds like that. They're not interesting. And yeah it's possible to carefully craft a defence which will gain value. That doesn't happen though. If you don't know that then you're so far out of touch with the state of the game that I really don't know what to say.
See londo/the other guy aboves post and end of mine. There are other ways to reward people in defence than making salvage unrealistic, unless it became random.

Quote:
I wouldn't say reward. I'd say break even. I mean if I login, I have my fleet and I can either use it to attack and either gain roids or at least not lose my fleet or I can give it to the dc where it could easily die in defence (because dcs use what they're offered). I know which one I'll be doing if I'm in a midranked alliance without that much to play for.
This is purely personal preference there are plenty of people who all out attack as it is. It should also be the discretion of the dc to decide whether the fleet is simply worth sending or not. You have to put all of this in to a context for us to see how salvage is currently "shit" and in my opinion bomber is a shit ship to start defending with anyway so its a case of... what do you expect.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 13:38   #66
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Then that is an issue with the salvage system full stop, not your argument of changing it back to last rounds setup.
I'm not really in favour of full reversion. I stated this earlier.

Quote:
This was in reference to your bombers calc.
Why are you hating on bombers heh?

Quote:
See londo/the other guy aboves post and end of mine. There are other ways to reward people in defence than making salvage unrealistic, unless it became random.
Xp is a piece of shit.

Quote:
This is purely personal preference there are plenty of people who all out attack as it is. It should also be the discretion of the dc to decide whether the fleet is simply worth sending or not. You have to put all of this in to a context for us to see how salvage is currently "shit" and in my opinion bomber is a shit ship to start defending with anyway so its a case of... what do you expect.
Every ship should be possible to use with def. People should be encouraged to defend, it's a really cool part of the game. To quote myself, because I'm awesome,
Quote:
Attacking is fairly interesting but defence is where the bonds that build alliances are formed. The guy who books first wave ahead of you is just some dude who's capping roids that you could have stolen. The guy who defends you with his fleet is your brother who gave up his chance of attacking to save your ass. Both will contribute to alliance score. Which type of behaviour you think is the way forward for planetarion is up to you.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 13:44   #67
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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I'm not really in favour of full reversion. I stated this earlier.
Then what you are proposing yourself is an unrealistic change since we all know how that ends up.

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Why are you hating on bombers heh?
Because this calc seemed to be the crux of your whole argument and bombers have for the most part always been out initiated and paper. Like was said before maybe the stats could have reflected better the salvage change, but this isnt to say salvage change was a shit move.

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Xp is a piece of shit.
Thats your own problem, and without an actual example of how we can change things for the better everyone elses idea so far is just as valid as your "lets revert ftw".

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Every ship should be possible to use with def. People should be encouraged to defend, it's a really cool part of the game. To quote myself, because I'm awesome,
Bring forward ideas that aren't revert then. Make defending COOL instead of basing it on salvage ftw
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Unread 10 May 2009, 13:49   #68
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Then what you are proposing yourself is an unrealistic change since we all know how that ends up.
I haven't really proposed anything bar avoiding fleet losses for the defence in situations where you destroy the guy's entire fleet.


Quote:
Because this calc seemed to be the crux of your whole argument and bombers have for the most part always been out initiated and paper. Like was said before maybe the stats could have reflected better the salvage change, but this isnt to say salvage change was a shit move.
I guess we could massively change the stats. Given that you'd end up with a somewhat similar result, ie you wouldn't get as badly ass raped in defence, I'd be okay with that. I'm not asking for value gains. I'm just saying people shouldn't be punished for offering def.

Quote:
Thats your own problem, and without an actual example of how we can change things for the better everyone elses idea so far is just as valid as your "lets revert ftw".
You can't claim I'm asking to revert right after I say "I'm not really in favour of full reversion". I mean I've heard of strawman arguments but that's just getting out of hand.

Quote:
Bring forward ideas that aren't revert then. Make defending COOL instead of basing it on salvage ftw
Value is the only interesting way to play PA because having lots of units and using them is what this game, and any war game, is about. Any system not based on value is going to be inferior.

Amusingly I actually just had one of these gay breps http://game.planetarion.com/show_new...xlodbjf14rq455
Ignoring the bombers which I had to run due to incs that would have been about a 35k value loss for me as the xan. We basically killed his entire fleet. I mean you could probably take down an alliance just by sending enough retards to die on them.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 15:09   #69
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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I haven't really proposed anything bar avoiding fleet losses for the defence in situations where you destroy the guy's entire fleet.
I dont really see how you could implement this in to the game because it is basically saying if I wipe out someone fleets, everything I lose I should regain. Whether this from salvage or not, it makes it completely unrealistic if the attacker is firing first. Like I keep saying it needs to be more random if we want to reflect something more realistic.

Quote:
I guess we could massively change the stats. Given that you'd end up with a somewhat similar result, ie you wouldn't get as badly ass raped in defence, I'd be okay with that. I'm not asking for value gains. I'm just saying people shouldn't be punished for offering def.
Im all for not punishing people in defence, but then this argument can keep going in circles with me saying there is an ideal fleet still out there which wouldn't punish the defence, only the attacker who crashed as Junglemuffin showed. This then goes back to the issue of it seeming that you are just upset that your fleet has to take a hit with the possibility of no regain, which comes entirely down to your choice of build/race selection = variety and maybe more balanced stats (end of round might give a better indication).

Quote:
You can't claim I'm asking to revert right after I say "I'm not really in favour of full reversion". I mean I've heard of strawman arguments but that's just getting out of hand.
Well my interpretation is going off your first post and the topic title "Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round". If you have changed from that since and I have missed this, then fair enough.

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I mean you could probably take down an alliance just by sending enough retards to die on them.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 16:23   #70
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
I dont really see how you could implement this in to the game because it is basically saying if I wipe out someone fleets, everything I lose I should regain. Whether this from salvage or not, it makes it completely unrealistic if the attacker is firing first. Like I keep saying it needs to be more random if we want to reflect something more realistic.
We're talking about a space-based war game on a spreadsheet on the internet. **** realism. What you want is something interesting and something that will a) keep people playing and b) attract new players.

Quote:
Im all for not punishing people in defence, but then this argument can keep going in circles with me saying there is an ideal fleet still out there which wouldn't punish the defence, only the attacker who crashed as Junglemuffin showed. This then goes back to the issue of it seeming that you are just upset that your fleet has to take a hit with the possibility of no regain, which comes entirely down to your choice of build/race selection = variety and maybe more balanced stats (end of round might give a better indication).
I'm pointing out that realistic dcing isn't about finding the perfect fleet, it's about using the tools you're given. I don't know how much dcing you do at the minute or recently munkee but seriously trust me on this.



Quote:
Well my interpretation is going off your first post and the topic title "Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round". If you have changed from that since and I have missed this, then fair enough.
Yeah, my bad. That was never really my aim, it just seemed like a catchy thread title.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 16:56   #71
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Oh and in regards to londo/the other dude on xp. What potential does a defence system which is an exact mirror of attacks have?
My name is TomKat and you just gave my ego a crushing blow, which is pretty difficult to do so well done

I guess it could be based on efficiency. Sure, it's all well and good sending a gazillion ships to defend someone, but a GOOD calc will be enough ships to defend without losing any. Maybe some sort of formula like:


coefficient x (Attackers Loss % / Defenders Loss % )


Where the % is the value of ships lost divided by the value of ships sent.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 16:59   #72
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Xp is a piece of shit.
Gonna disagree with you here dude!

It CAN be shit (when it's exploitable and you can get to #1 with a piddly planet).

If defence were a viable way of getting score though, it would be a bit more exciting. At the moment if we send defence we send the fleet out and it's out of action for XX ticks, until we get it back.

If we could get a decent score boost out of it, we would put more effort into making the defence efficient and tricking the attackers into landing.

It would also make for more amusing battle reports.

It'd also mean that people actually CARE about the defence they send, instead of just seniding where the BC has told them to and then ignoring it until their "NEWS" flashes up.



PS when i say "exciting" and "amusing" these are obviously in relative terms. there's only so much excitement you can get from a spreadsheet
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Unread 10 May 2009, 19:21   #73
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Salvage isn't the problem here
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Unread 10 May 2009, 20:53   #74
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

PLEASE don't add more random factors. Randomness in a competitive game is shit.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 23:23   #75
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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PLEASE don't add more random factors. Randomness in a competitive game is shit.
an element of randomness wouldnt have a major say in the long run though.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 23:33   #76
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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an element of randomness wouldnt have a major say in the long run though.
That depends. In general though, it's a bad idea. Either way, in this case, the impact of the random factor would increase the bigger the battle is, and thus there isn't really a way to control the impact it would have.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 04:51   #77
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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an element of randomness wouldnt have a major say in the long run though.
You'd think so, but then Spaceminers proved otherwise. They had a random element system based on a 'luck' factor which increased or decreased depending on what you did with your fleet, and one round certain alliances discovered an exploit that allowed them to keep getting good anomalies rather than bad ones. It swung the balance of the round quite dramatically.

They had other pretty disastrous random encounters too - like the one that would randomly delay your fleet by a tick. Imagine if the defence of your planet and the survival of all the defending fleets depended on one big player, and then his fleet got there a tick late. I can see that affecting the game pretty dramatically.

Back to the salvage debate, however.

Battles are meant to be messy. They've always been meant to be messy. You're meant to have to use a certain level of strategy to minimise your losses, and in this case the people arguing for increased salvage levels are choosing to ignore said strategy and are posting disastrous and frankly ridiculous calcs. The issue with the bomber calc in particular is that bombers are the wrong ship for that defence. You know bombers have a terrible initiative and shoot CR as T2, and you know wraiths eat them alive, so why use them in that scenario? If the attacker is allowed to shoot first, it's perfectly fair that defending ships should die - else what would be the point in attacking?

Allow me to present a more sensible calc: http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...zfhe7a4nvwvk7f

Unlike in the bomber scenario, the defending fleet requires less fleet value than the attacking fleet, and still kills it outright, but this time with no losses. Salvage becomes irrelevant, because the defence has been organised properly. The issue here is not salvage levels, but misuse of a frankly questionable stats set. If people haven't got the shadows to defend against that sort of attack, it's not the game's fault, it's their own - bombers were simply not designed to be effective against anything except SKs.

While there are pros and cons to changing salvage levels, your calc arguments are little more than straw men designed to draw attention away from the actual strategic aspect of the game.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 08:01   #78
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You get calcs like this http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5kyzaisct94y0t

Seriously what the **** do you want the xan to do there, whore more emp defence or accept the fact he loses value even if not a single ship actually gets to cap? That said I imagine quite a lot of people who will read this are retarded and won't get how staggeringly gay this sort of stuff actually is so I'll post a slightly different calc which will happen later in the round.

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kizr1xtxoeg1uu

Your reward here for having some faggot decide to crash and lose his entire fleet on your def is that your def loses 300k value. On the scale of weak shit this ranks pretty highly. Now I mean certainly some big zik planets benefitted last round, which was a 10 week round but christ I'd have my doubts whoever approved the salvage change realised that made a difference, from salvage. And yes these were primarily ascendancy planets because for some reason a lot of other alliances seemed to find crashing awesome. So the response to about 10-15 planets gaining a lot of score off salvage was to cut salvage in half. Ignore the longer length of last round. Ignore the fact that if the government's response to finding a department was overfunded was halving their budget they'd be asked what planet they live on. Did nobody even look at what some of the resulting calcs would be like?

http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...t6iel8lin8azib they end up looking a lot like that in case you didn't!
I had a good laugh

then i understood he actually wasnt joking in his post

and laughed some more
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Unread 11 May 2009, 09:22   #79
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
Unlike in the bomber scenario, the defending fleet requires less fleet value than the attacking fleet, and still kills it outright, but this time with no losses. Salvage becomes irrelevant, because the defence has been organised properly. The issue here is not salvage levels, but misuse of a frankly questionable stats set. If people haven't got the shadows to defend against that sort of attack, it's not the game's fault, it's their own - bombers were simply not designed to be effective against anything except SKs.
What part of "dcs use what ships they're offered not magical perfect fleets designed to take down different fleets" do you not get? I mean let's be honest here either we admit that salvage is ****ed or the stats need a definite revamping. Unless you're going to claim that entire races weren't designed to be effective.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 10:05   #80
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
What part of "dcs use what ships they're offered not magical perfect fleets designed to take down different fleets" do you not get?
While that is actually happening, it is a player's responsibility (and not the game's) to ensure that he/she can offer adequate defense fleets. I guess that's something we both agree on, and while it's certainly not topic of this discussion I just wanted to remember everyone on this.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I mean let's be honest here either we admit that salvage is ****ed or the stats need a definite revamping. Unless you're going to claim that entire races weren't designed to be effective.
Now, let's take a look. Salvage was introduced with the purpose of ensuring that a player who has lost ships on defense can rebuild some of his losses, not all. As such this is not directly a matter of how stats or races are designed, but instead a question of: "How much should we allow people to rebuild". Of course this then gets influenced by the way people play, but if someone is constructing a fleet that's useless against everything then it's just sensible to punish them harder for this then Joe Average who at least can defend against one kind of ship. One way or another, I do fully agree that the salvage drop has been too heavy.

(It's going slightly offtopic now)
Regarding stats: It is utterly bollocks to get a decent set of stats with 5 races balanced. Especially in this situation where each race is having a dozen or so ships, and the balance is supposed to be "asymmetric" - which is difficult.
Additionally, races were not designed to be effective for everyone against everything, but to have people play the game in different ways. I guess that the (more or less) random selection of people for creating ship stats in combination with a lack of an overall gameplay vision is the root cause for problems in this area: Since there's no consistency in people's intentions the original intention is no longer existing, and instead we're here with a set of stats that does not fit any possible game play but a potpourri of different opinions, where some prefer race x over race y and others prefer attacking over defending - without ever actually considering the overall balance of the game.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 15:38   #81
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

after some dcing for the alliance and ofc also ingal and on my own planet
i heavily disagree that salvage is too low!
it just takes some more skill now, and ofc the right ships offered to do good

the stats are more the problem this round then the new salvage rule
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Unread 11 May 2009, 18:00   #82
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
What part of "dcs use what ships they're offered not magical perfect fleets designed to take down different fleets" do you not get? I mean let's be honest here either we admit that salvage is ****ed or the stats need a definite revamping. Unless you're going to claim that entire races weren't designed to be effective.
I never said the stats didn't need revamping. I think they're pretty laughable, if we're honest.

Anyway, as Heartless said, sometimes the right ships aren't offered. You're talking as if the very act of offering a defence fleet, no matter its contents, should be enough to guarantee the defenders a profit on land. I agree that defence is what builds the bonds in this game, but that doesn't mean it should be easy, and it doesn't mean alliances should rely on ships like bombers for all their anti-CR needs.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 19:03   #83
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Dude, defence was not easy last round. Trust me on this. There's reason very few alliances were actually able to prevent their top planets being roided in the end.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 20:15   #84
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

I know it wasn't. I'm not saying it ever is - I'm just saying the calcs you used proved nothing about salvage and everything about the state of these stats. I do actually think salvage is a little low this round, but then again salvage levels need to be calculated alongside the stats, not as an afterthought.
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Unread 11 May 2009, 23:40   #85
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Dude, defence was not easy last round. Trust me on this. There's reason very few alliances were actually able to prevent their top planets being roided in the end.
I think its perfect the way it is now, last round you guys in asc proved how crashers boost you insanly. I think it was golan getting like 3,5mill value from crashers :/
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Unread 12 May 2009, 01:01   #86
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

If people are incapable of planning 8 hours ahead, they deserve what they're getting.
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Unread 12 May 2009, 01:27   #87
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Nestorn View Post
I think its perfect the way it is now, last round you guys in asc proved how crashers boost you insanly. I think it was golan getting like 3,5mill value from crashers :/
Crashers did boost us, although it was more like keep us afloat, trust me I'd rather not have had the incs and mined the roids, we'd have made a lot more (I know this as I worked it out so anyone who tells you otherwise is ****ing wrong). But jesus christ logging in if you've attacked isn't that difficult. Basically this round they just made activity worth less. Your reward for waking up at 4am to send def is now losing value because the other ****tard doesn't know how to jgp. I mean it's worth bearing in mind that this is the first round ever with low salvage, multiple-targetting, one tick defences and prelaunching. The advantage may not actually be with the incompetent horde but shift it much more that way and it really will be.
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Unread 12 May 2009, 07:04   #88
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Crashers did boost us, although it was more like keep us afloat, trust me I'd rather not have had the incs and mined the roids, we'd have made a lot more (I know this as I worked it out so anyone who tells you otherwise is ****ing wrong). But jesus christ logging in if you've attacked isn't that difficult. Basically this round they just made activity worth less. Your reward for waking up at 4am to send def is now losing value because the other ****tard doesn't know how to jgp. I mean it's worth bearing in mind that this is the first round ever with low salvage, multiple-targetting, one tick defences and prelaunching. The advantage may not actually be with the incompetent horde but shift it much more that way and it really will be.
So what you're basically saying is that this is just as much a stats issue as a salvage issue?

Because we had low salvage, one tick defence and prelaunching, and it worked fine.

I do agree with your earlier points about less salvage rewarding staying out of fights even more than usual, but I don't think this is solely about salvage. Ship stats have a large impact on this: in your example calcs it's Xan getting shafted. Xan get shafted with higher salvage too, it's just less noticable. Perhaps a better fix would be to start making Xan ships 'big' (more expensive but with the same efficiency) compared to other races.
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Unread 12 May 2009, 07:55   #89
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Obviously stats and salvage are fairly heavily inter-related. I mean you could pretty much jury-rig it so most of the actual value losses that I'm whining about don't happen. I'd have to say I don't think altering stats is the way forward. Salvage was a good brute force solution which meant you could play around with the stats a bit more, I fear trying to correct this "problem" with stats alterations would just lead to fairly bland and uninteresting stats.
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Unread 12 May 2009, 08:35   #90
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

I agree with JBG that salvage is too low. Earlier this round a Cathaar lost 100k out 200k FI, landed for 200 roids and came out with an 80k score boost. The level of salvage was very low given that I killed half the guy's fleet.

I dread the inevitable Lancer defence vs a big Xan CO incs which don't recall (due to rl or something) - most of the Xan's ships will be killed, as will alot of the Lancers. But the salvage wont have nearly made the defence worthwhile, even if there is no cap.
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Unread 14 May 2009, 21:56   #91
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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I agree with JBG that salvage is too low. Earlier this round a Cathaar lost 100k out 200k FI, landed for 200 roids and came out with an 80k score boost. The level of salvage was very low given that I killed half the guy's fleet.

I dread the inevitable Lancer defence vs a big Xan CO incs which don't recall (due to rl or something) - most of the Xan's ships will be killed, as will alot of the Lancers. But the salvage wont have nearly made the defence worthwhile, even if there is no cap.
so what

which battle in history ever made an defending or attacking side gain from a battle !?

war is nasty, and if someone decides to suicide it will hurt you, we have bcalcs and all that, so you actually know what will happen
no General Custer, Rommel or Wellington knew about that before moving to war

dont think battles are made to have someone gain from it overall
roids need to be payed, killing an attacker also

apart from that, it needs probably a single fleet more to make losses acceptable
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Unread 14 May 2009, 22:55   #92
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Jesus christ we're not trying to emulate actual military combat. Otherwise I'd have gotten to enslave you all and rape your women after last round.

We're just trying to make a sensible, enjoyable game.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 00:24   #93
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

today i lost 50k value. We killed double what we lost.

It sucks end of. i had lost no ships all round before today, what incentive does this give me to actually want to def? nothing. You have to at least give people SOME motivation to defend...



Hell i would like to see another cons if this crap remains like this

A salvage centre. So you can add an extra 10percent to salvage (like FC's maybe .5% a con?) gained to defenders at your own planet only. Gives another cons for people to build and might mean defenders check what you have conswise before sending
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Unread 15 May 2009, 00:50   #94
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

stop ure booo hoo'n
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Unread 15 May 2009, 01:21   #95
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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today i lost 50k value. We killed double what we lost.

It sucks end of. i had lost no ships all round before today, what incentive does this give me to actually want to def? nothing. You have to at least give people SOME motivation to defend...



Hell i would like to see another cons if this crap remains like this

A salvage centre. So you can add an extra 10percent to salvage (like FC's maybe .5% a con?) gained to defenders at your own planet only. Gives another cons for people to build and might mean defenders check what you have conswise before sending
Incentive other than defending your fellow member, reduce roid losses and to kill enemy ships? I think thats enough, should be anyway.

I like the idea about have salvage centers! Just like with FCs atm there is a cap on how many u can build. Would be awesome imo.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 01:33   #96
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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stop ure booo hoo'n
Don't you get it? It doesn't encourage defence. It actually encourages you to keep your fleet at home. It's not going to be alliances like ascendancy, or waffh or anyone who's played the game for a significant period of time, who have problems with it though. It'll be the small guys in medium-sized new alliances who lose their fleets defending and the bigger guys in those alliances who don't see the benefit in defending. I mean christ we have a thread on the forums right now dedicated to how can we stop small guys who aren't active from losing their fleets. Lower salvage actually punishes those same small guys who make the next step up and become active enough to send def. Fan-****ing-tastic.

Salvage centres are cool though, I'd support their introduction regardless.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 06:42   #97
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

it wouldn't be so bad had the stats been adjusted to compensate for the salvage change - increased armour, damage, etc. but of course, they weren't.
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Unread 15 May 2009, 08:00   #98
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Salvage is a good way to support taking actual combats and not be running your fleet all the time.

Systems to efect your amount of salvage bonus are definetly good solutions. If one wants to def his base and roids making plenty of salvage constructions sounds like a good choise. You need to get the salvage based on your losses, not based on what u kill. This way we avoid any abuse.

And while we are at it, I would be happy to see the salvage take place in attacks aswell. That way u dare to land on some heavier def also. Or dont lose your whole game if u forget/cannot check one landing of yours.

Salvage also makes u more happier to land on big guys. The roid gain aint so expensive when u get something back from your lost units.

Also then the defenders gets to make some kills also and gain xp, not only get a message to recall and grats. Since noone dares to land right now to battle it out.

We should definately add a fleet motivation/morale. Which will increase on defence. Increase or stay same when attacking people bigger or at your range. Decrease when you launch on small people. Why not even decrease if it stays home to get dusty. This way we will support defending, support attacking people on your range, support fleet movement. Also we will make it less enjoyable to noob roid and also dont support people that does not add much to the universe (no fleet movement.)

What we want is more combats to take place.
What we want is people battle it out whom has matching qualities for it.
What we want is to have game mechanics to suppprt the game play we want to have in here. So none are tempted to lame play, since its more profitable. IT CANNOT BE!
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Unread 15 May 2009, 18:35   #99
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
it wouldn't be so bad had the stats been adjusted to compensate for the salvage change - increased armour, damage, etc. but of course, they weren't.
This, to a tee.
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Unread 16 May 2009, 09:46   #100
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Do small planets still get up to 50% more salvage than top20 planets?
well apparently not at least tahts what my experience is:
TOOT fc.. 47k cr of a ~500k value scanner planet smashed;P It meant, that cca 230k fleet/planet value got killed, and my salvage was like 3.2mish each resource type...only...=P
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