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Unread 28 Aug 2010, 07:24   #1
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Hurricane Katrina

August 28 is the fifth anniversary of hurricane Katrina. Billions of dollars have been poured into New Orleans and most of the homes which were destroyed during Katrina are STILL destroyed. Only about 700 of the thousands of homes in the Lower Ninth Ward have been rebuilt and those have been built with private money. Why? Because most of the money is going into the pockets of New Orleans and Louisiana politicians same as always. Mostly the same people who pocketed the billions of dollars give to New Orleans and Louisiana to make the dikes better in the decade before Katrina happened.

The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Unread 28 Aug 2010, 18:15   #2
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

We need more deregulation so that the market can take care of things. The invisible hand. Vote Republican.
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Unread 29 Aug 2010, 18:08   #3
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

What is needed in New Orleans and Louisiana is a less corrupt political infrastructure. Jindal has made a good start but has a long history of the way things are done in Louisiana to overcome.

The way the federal government has handled things under Commisar Obama, during the gulf oil spill has certainly hurt the oil industry in Louisiana which is a major portion of their economy. Obama has certainly been more of a disaster to Louisiana than either Katrina or the oil spill.
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Unread 6 Sep 2010, 16:18   #4
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
What is needed in New Orleans and Louisiana is a less corrupt political infrastructure.
Or, alternatively, levees that will withstand water surges greater than when a grandmother pisses in the other end of lake pontchartrain.

Oh wait, that would cost money on the part of the government and as we all know when the government spends money on anything at all other than shooting the shit out of brown people it's Socialism and that's what the Muslims want.

Palin in 2012!

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Unread 14 Sep 2010, 01:07   #5
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

In the years BEFORE Katrina something in the neighborhood of 2 or 3 billion dollars was sent to Louisiana to build up the levees. However, the liberals in Louisiana felt that spending it on corruption was a more proper use of the funds.

More Obama in 2012. Please, he's doing such a great job.
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Unread 14 Sep 2010, 22:37   #6
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

Yeah let's hold Obama responsible for what local politicians in New Orleans did... before he was elected.

And actually it's printed in the "liberal" manifesto to waste as much money as possible without accountability. I carry a copy of it in my pocket wherever I go, being a liberal and all, so I know it by heart.

How's the tea party treating you dda? Fitting in?
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 15:37   #7
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

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More Obama in 2012. Please, he's doing such a great job.
Can't expect somebody to clean up the mess your predecessor made in an 8 year timespan in only 2 years time...

Oh and please, more Palin in 2012!
If she was that hilarious when she was just running for vice president, imagine how hilarious she'll be when she's actually running for president!
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Unread 15 Sep 2010, 23:27   #8
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

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Yeah let's hold Obama responsible for what local politicians in New Orleans did... before he was elected.

And actually it's printed in the "liberal" manifesto to waste as much money as possible without accountability. I carry a copy of it in my pocket wherever I go, being a liberal and all, so I know it by heart.

How's the tea party treating you dda? Fitting in?
Amen.

I do love the general bandwagon against Obama. Take something that he has nothing to do with, is actually a direct cause of a Republican office and spin it around to make it seem as if he's to blame. The issues with New Orleans are quite severe and were merely extenuated by Katrina, not created. The pathetic response by the then-current office along with organizations like FEMA are the root of the problem.

Or you could just blame it on the liberals. NObama! Let's have a woman be president who can't hardly articulate her stances and has more interest in her public figure than anything even resembling politics.
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Unread 16 Sep 2010, 05:21   #9
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

Pay attention.

I didn't blame Katrina on Obama.

However, it wasn't Bush that screwed up either.

It was the Governor of the state of Louisiana (at the time a Democrat) and the Mayor of New Orleans (at the time a Democrat). It was the last 100 years (at least) of corrupt politics in the state of Louisiana and in the city of New Orleans which squandered the funds that they were given in the years before Katrina which were supposed to be used for reinforcing the levies. It was the same corrupt system in Louisiana which has squandered a lot of funds poured in there after Katrina.

I repeat, Louisiana is the most corrupt state in the United States and has been almost since the Louisiana Purchase.

My please more Obama was a response to MM's Palin in 2012 comment.

As far as the Tea Party goes, while I agree with many of their stances, I have the same problem with them that I have with the "intellectual" left. Too many emotional arguments and too little actual fact with logical argument.
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Unread 16 Sep 2010, 13:06   #10
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

Fair enough point.

I do, however, disagree heavily that Bush is not marginally responsible. The response time and aid given was piss-poor and that falls back on all politicians associated, from the mayor to the president. The President always has the ability to swiftly perform tasks as needed. The whole catastrophe is a function of poor politics all around, but comments like:

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
Obama has certainly been more of a disaster to Louisiana than either Katrina or the oil spill.
Certainly make it seem like some of your feelings have nothing to do with the real aftermath of the hurricane. Sorry, but I actually laughed out loud when you said that. I don't see how you could possibily even begin to rationalize a statement like that.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 12:33   #11
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

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In the years BEFORE Katrina something in the neighborhood of 2 or 3 billion dollars was sent to Louisiana to build up the levees.
Considering it's the army corps of engineers who, on my understanding, are meant to be responsible for building and maintaining said leeves, and said institution is a federal one, one rather wonders why.

Oh yes, and then there is of course the small matter of Congress and the Presidency being controlled by the Republicans in the years leading up to Katrina. And the Governorship of Louisiana, and the greater bulk of Louisiana's congressional delegation.

But I'm sure they had no responsiblity whatsoever in directing that money or sustaing it's supply and it's all the fault of the blacks in Louisiana who spent it on mangos and moonshine.

If Louisiana is irredemably corrupt - and I've no doubt that the political descendants of Huey Long have stayed true to their roots - then don't send them any ****ing money, let along many billions. It's a simple enough concept. Checks and balances and all that.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 17 Sep 2010 at 12:50.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 21:21   #12
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson View Post
{Considering it's the army corps of engineers who, on my understanding, are meant to be responsible for building and maintaining said leeves, and said institution is a federal one, one rather wonders why.}

The Army Corps of Engineers is in charge of spending that money which makes it through the local politicians.

{Oh yes, and then there is of course the small matter of Congress and the Presidency being controlled by the Republicans in the years leading up to Katrina. And the Governorship of Louisiana, and the greater bulk of Louisiana's congressional delegation.}

The Governor of Louisiana from 2004-2008 was Kathleen Blanco, a Democrat. She had the responsibility to request federal aid before the federal government could do anything. The Bush administration asked her to make such a request which she didn't do until several days after Katrina. As the governor of the state she had a lot of say on how even federal money was spent in the state.

Ray Nagin was the Mayor of New Orleans from 2002-2010, also a Democrat. He had the ability to funnel federal money away from its intended target. He is also the individual who left over a thousand school busses, which could have been used to evacuate the poor of New Orleans, sitting in an area which was flooded soon after Katrina. He was warned but did nothing.

William Jefferson was the Democratic congressman from the Second Congressional District of Louisiana which represented New Orleans in the U. S. Congress from 1991-2008. He is the same individual who was storing over $100,000 in cash in his freezer at his home. He was later indicted regarding how he had accumulated this "under the table" money. He also commandeered a squad of Louisiana National Guardsmen, instead of aiding in rescue work, to take him to his house where he then had them load many of his valuable personal items, including his freezer, into military vehicles to rescue them from the pending disaster.

Mary Landrieu was one of the two sitting senators from Louisiana and has been since 1996. She is the daughter of Moon Landrieu a former mayor of New Orleans and a former U. S. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.
She is the sister of the current mayor of New Orleans who was previously the Attorney General of the state of Louisiana. Mary Landrieu, along with the Republican Senator from Louisiana attempted to get a $250,000,000,000 bill passed to "rebuild New Orleans." This would have been roughly $550,000 for each and every inhabitant of New Orleans prior to Katrina. One has to wonder where all of this money would have gone.

{But I'm sure they had no responsiblity whatsoever in directing that money or sustaing it's supply and it's all the fault of the blacks in Louisiana who spent it on mangos and moonshine.}

Refer to the thread on the intellectual left.

{If Louisiana is irredemably corrupt - and I've no doubt that the political descendants of Huey Long have stayed true to their roots - then don't send them any ****ing money, let along many billions. It's a simple enough concept. Checks and balances and all that}

You don't understand the federal system of government which we have in the United States. This is not unreasonable since you are not subjected to it. It is not unrreasonable in that most Americans do not understand the form of government which it has in place. More sadly still, most of the leaders of this country do not believe in this federal system and ignore it when it is to their advantage to do so.
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Last edited by dda; 17 Sep 2010 at 21:34. Reason: Left something out.
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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 01:03   #13
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
Pay attention.

I didn't blame Katrina on Obama.

However, it wasn't Bush that screwed up either.

It was the Governor of the state of Louisiana (at the time a Democrat) and the Mayor of New Orleans (at the time a Democrat). It was the last 100 years (at least) of corrupt politics in the state of Louisiana and in the city of New Orleans which squandered the funds that they were given in the years before Katrina which were supposed to be used for reinforcing the levies. It was the same corrupt system in Louisiana which has squandered a lot of funds poured in there after Katrina.

I repeat, Louisiana is the most corrupt state in the United States and has been almost since the Louisiana Purchase.

My please more Obama was a response to MM's Palin in 2012 comment.

As far as the Tea Party goes, while I agree with many of their stances, I have the same problem with them that I have with the "intellectual" left. Too many emotional arguments and too little actual fact with logical argument.
Well my impression is that you're tying liberalism and corruption together as if one naturally leads to the other and there's no truth to that whatsoever.

There's also only a tenuous chance that a member of the Democratic Party is also a liberal, especially in the South.

This is something that bothers me about political discourse in general. In the general election it doesn't matter that Politician A was corrupt or has said something dumb, or <enter personality flaw here>. The time to vote based on things such as these are in the *primary* election when people who share the same ideology are competing to run as the standard bearer for that party's platform. In the general election I would never vote for Republican, regardless of whatever flaws or nutty youtube moment the liberal candidate may have had.

How this ties into this discussion is that corruption is not an ideological issue. If you'd like to convince me to vote for a Republican or a conservative, you'd have to address value differences I have with conservatism.

This extends to complaints about Bush. I would never vote for Bush because he is a conservative, but even if I were a conservative I wouldn't vote for him because he is also incompetent. Redressing complaints people have with his competence may or may not convince me that I was wrong about this issue, but it would not mean that I would vote for him regardless of the outcome. Complaints about Obama's competence, correct or incorrect, would also not lead me to vote for a Republican during the general election in 2012. Etc.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 19:20   #14
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

I don't blame Democrats or Republicans. I don't blame conservatives or liberals. I blame dishonest politicians.

As to addressing the differences in ideology between liberals and conservatives, name some and maybe I will have a position.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 19:27   #15
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda View Post
Obama has certainly been more of a disaster to Louisiana than either Katrina or the oil spill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dda View Post
However, the liberals in Louisiana felt that spending it on corruption was a more proper use of the funds.

More Obama in 2012. Please, he's doing such a great job.
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Originally Posted by dda View Post
It was the Governor of the state of Louisiana (at the time a Democrat) and the Mayor of New Orleans (at the time a Democrat).
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I don't blame Democrats or Republicans. I don't blame conservatives or liberals. I blame dishonest politicians.
Forgive me if I got the impression you blame Democrats and liberals. I don't know where I could possibly have gotten that notion.
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Unread 23 Oct 2010, 15:51   #16
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Re: Hurricane Katrina

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As to addressing the differences in ideology between liberals and conservatives, name some and maybe I will have a position.
Modern conservatism disvalues and politicizes science.

This is above all else unacceptable to me. The room available to interpret data produced by good science is directly correlated to amount and quality of that data. The more data there is, the less room for interpretation there is. That is to say, eventually we have so much data, it speaks for itself. Data doesn't care about your political beliefs or your values. It's simply either truth or isn't and whether it is truth depends on the quality of the science, not the personal characteristics or the consequences of the data, or how it aligns with your personal views. If there's a problem with the data, it's a problem of methodology that is easily resolvable and requires little if any debate.

The data and science that back evolution of life is undeniable by any scientific standard. I don't know much about the science of climate change, but the organizations that stand behind are run by solid scientists.

The left is not immune from this criticism entirely: science about human intelligence and genetics or the efficacy of cultural practices is what it is and the data it produces is what it is regardless of personal values. I don't know what the data is or where it will lead, I just sense some apprehension from some on the left regarding the desire of some to learn more, and I find that unacceptable.

However the right is by far the worst offender, largely due to social conservatism and the religious right. I cannot vote for people who do not value or even understand science.

Here's another: personal liberty.

What consenting adults do with their own lives is their business. This includes who they love and what they do to their bodies.

Here again the left is also not blame free: nanny state laws that prohibit freedoms of individuals to run their lives or their business also bother me, but none are so terrible as conservative religious doctrine they wish to impose on unwilling subjects.

I'll leave a third (but there's more):

Social responsibility. I believe in capitalism and private property, but the truth is that we all live together on a desert island with limited resources. And just like on a desert island we have to work together to survive and work towards ensuring that those who need mortal help, when they cannot help themselves, can get it, and that we all make some sacrifice for the benefit of all. This is a gray area for me personally, since I value personal liberty and I certainly do not believe that the wealthy own their wealth at the pleasure of the poor. Private property belongs its owner. However ensuring children get fed, roads are built, people get life saving medical care are all part and parcel of good governance and benefit us all in the long run. A law abiding and reasonable government is not a bad thing, it is a good thing. Conservatives outcry of "big government" resonate with me to some degree, but modern conservatism, such that would repeal the modest health care legislation recently written seems extremist to me.
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Last edited by s|k; 25 Oct 2010 at 21:50.
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