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Unread 8 Sep 2007, 21:58   #1
Travler
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West Virginia and Homophobia

http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewi...070906-1.shtml

I just read that article and watched the video. Other articles about the incident are located here:

http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/9646272.html

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/...21/1005/NEWS10


Apparently being beaten up and killed for being homosexual is not considered a hate crime in the state of West Virginia. It's just a standard homicide where 3 people show up, beat up a man who is gay, shout derogatory comments about him being gay and then go on about their business.

It's like the state is condoning gay bashing. No wonder people make fun of this state.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
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Unread 8 Sep 2007, 22:11   #2
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Aren't you busy biting some chicken's head off in a Christian meeting somewhere?
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Unread 8 Sep 2007, 22:22   #3
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
However, Mullins said the case was not being treated as a hate crime. Mullins said the investigation indicates all the people involved knew each other and it will be treated as a homicide.
so its not really a hate crime except under the South Park definition?



Even if this isn't true, wouldn't it just be second-degree murder anyway?
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Unread 8 Sep 2007, 23:19   #4
Travler
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Aren't you busy biting some chicken's head off in a Christian meeting somewhere?
I think you are confusing church service with an Ozzy Osborne concert. You may have too much blood in your alcohol system.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 9 Sep 2007, 00:00   #5
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

I'm not too troubled at this to be quite honest. It seems to me that it's the correct decision to treat a homicide as a... homicide. One would expect that a prosecutor (assuming it goes to court) would use the slurs in his case, but seeing as it's just a bunch of cops investigating a crime (whatever crime), I see no problem with the current approach.

Of course this changes when cops put less effort in the case because it was a gay man who was killed, but there are no indications this is the case.
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Unread 9 Sep 2007, 00:08   #6
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

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Originally Posted by Kargool
Aren't you busy biting some chicken's head off in a Christian meeting somewhere?
Hahahaha.. classic.
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Unread 9 Sep 2007, 01:29   #7
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

why is it appealing to over react together?
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 13:17   #8
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Hate crime legislation is retarded.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 13:29   #9
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Hate crime legislation is retarded.
If we're working on the basis that hate crimes are unprovoked and premeditated, the punishment should be more severe anyway - so far as I understand it's mostly a protection against bigoted judges/juries
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 14:43   #10
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Nothing wrong with hate crimes.
It brings cash into the United Negro College Fund & sells newspapers!
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 15:15   #11
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
If we're working on the basis that hate crimes are unprovoked and premeditated, the punishment should be more severe anyway - so far as I understand it's mostly a protection against bigoted judges/juries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
A jury is a sworn body of persons convened to render a rational, impartial verdict and a finding of fact on a legal question officially submitted to them, or to set a penalty or judgment in a jury trial of a court of law.
If juries are prejudiced or bigoted on a regular basis, there is something fundamentally wrong with the system, and the patch that is hate crime legislation is not going to solve that.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 15:55   #12
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
If juries are prejudiced or bigoted on a regular basis, there is something fundamentally wrong with the system, and the patch that is hate crime legislation is not going to solve that.
nor will turning off the lights when you leave the room stop global warming. Doesn't make either a bad idea.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 16:05   #13
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

See, that's the difference between contributing to the solution (turning the lights off when you leave the room) and patching up a symptom (using hate crime legislation to cover up one of the problems with jury trials).
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 17:46   #14
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Except that without large-scale social changes (in attitude and action) both are little more than symbolic actions. Except of course, that hate crime legislation might actually have a noticable impact until the human race wipes itself out.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 18:00   #15
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
If we're working on the basis that hate crimes are unprovoked and premeditated, the punishment should be more severe anyway - so far as I understand it's mostly a protection against bigoted judges/juries
The point of hate crime legislation isn't "to cover up one of the problems with jury trials", not on the slightest.


Hate crime legislation was introduced by the Government for two main reasons: to ensure that racism is always an aggravating factor, and to get rid of judges' sentencing discretion in this respect.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 18:25   #16
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Except that without large-scale social changes (in attitude and action) both are little more than symbolic actions. Except of course, that hate crime legislation might actually have a noticable impact until the human race wipes itself out.
Hardly. A text (which the courts in a country or state abide to) that states that beating up a homo is worse than beating up the white rich kid around the corner is not something that I would call 'little more than symbolic'.

However, the analogy itself is flawed, making this a rather trivial discussion.
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Unread 10 Sep 2007, 19:30   #17
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Of course it's not ideal but this legislation can never be anything more than a patch as it doesn't deal with the underlying issues that a lot of people in this country are completely ****ed in the head. There is a river of racism, homophobia and general bigotry running right below the surface and it's only a matter of time before it all explodes to the surface. But seeing as the liklihood of addressing the underlying problems is practically zero, this is all you can really expect.

I'm not sure if these laws have any greater aim than deterring people from racist attacks* but it's the best you're gonig to get without wholesale social change.

*whether this is effective or not is kind of irrelevent
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 14:51   #18
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

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I think you are confusing church service with an Ozzy Osborne concert. You may have too much blood in your alcohol system.
A Christian once told me that homosexualism is a disease.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 15:14   #19
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
A Christian once told me that homosexualism is a disease.
and regardless of what you think of his unconsciously-patronising evangelical approach, I don't think Travler has ever shown signs of insane dogmatic conservatism. Go back to your cave and hate women some more.
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Unread 11 Sep 2007, 20:12   #20
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

I'm thinking he didn't just quote a random christian. Care to elaborate, Keizari?
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 15:08   #21
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
A Christian once told me that homosexualism is a disease.
Luke 17:34 (King James Version)
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

That passage refers to the 2nd coming of Christ. I have yet to find a passage in the bible where homosexuals are certain to go to Hell. There is one passage that states that they should be killed if caught in the act of fornication.

Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


Also I am unable to find a passage regarding women sleeping with other women.

I cannot find anything about homosexuality being a disease. The person that said that must be in fear of catching homosexuality or homophobic. Homosexuality in and of itself is not a sin. The act of sex outside of Marriage is a sin. Sin can be forgiven by Jesus. Gay people will not go to hell just for being gay.

There are ALOT of hypocritical christians that want to judge gay people more than share the word about a loving God.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 15:45   #22
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
It's like the state is condoning gay bashing.
Your holy book supports (by your interpretation) murdering gay men and you're complaining about this?
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 16:01   #23
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
They must be put to death
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
share the word about a loving God.
Can feel the love from all the way over here.
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 16:04   #24
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Exclamation Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

"Accept God's boundless love and compassion or suffer unimaginably in hell for all eternity."
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 16:04   #25
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

To be honest I think the bulk of the Torah should be rejected both by Christians and fervent detractors because granting much of it credibility degrades them both.
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 16:17   #26
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Exclamation Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
To be honest I think the bulk of the Torah should be rejected both by Christians and fervent detractors because granting much of it credibility degrades them both.
I assume that you mean as a 'legitimate part of scriptural canon' here or something similar because I suspect most fervent detractors probably wouldn't accept much in the way of religious authority anyway.
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 16:21   #27
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I assume that you mean as a 'legitimate part of scriptural canon' here or something similar because I suspect most fervent detractors probably wouldn't accept much in the way of religious authority anyway.
yes, sorry.
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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 22:36   #28
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Your holy book supports (by your interpretation) murdering gay men and you're complaining about this?
It also states that you cannot murder. At the time that scripture was written it was a religious law and would have been considered a similar crime to murder or adultery. Today murder is still a crime but adultery is just a sin. To God both murder and adultery are sins and make little difference which is worse since sin is sin.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 22:47   #29
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
"Accept God's boundless love and compassion or suffer unimaginably in hell for all eternity."
Eternity without God would be Hell.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 12 Sep 2007, 22:49   #30
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
It also states that you cannot murder. At the time that scripture was written it was a religious law and would have been considered a similar crime to murder or adultery. Today murder is still a crime but adultery is just a sin. To God both murder and adultery are sins and make little difference which is worse since sin is sin.
Surely the word of the Bible is God's law?
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Unread 13 Sep 2007, 02:10   #31
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Surely the word of the Bible is God's law?
The old Testament has alot of rules and laws that don't make sense in today's world. Christians are only held to the rules of the New Testament. The rules in the old testament are looked on as a guide only. Basically you should avoid pork, shellfish, and gay sex all with equal importance. I can avoid gay sex but bacon and seafood are too good to pass up.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 13 Sep 2007, 09:46   #32
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Chazz: Who'd win in a wrestling match, Lemmy or God?
Cop: Lemmy
Rex: *incorrect game show buzzer sound*
Cop: ... God!
Rex: Wrong, dickhead, trick question. Lemmy is God.


See, it's already happened, just no-one was paying attention.
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Unread 13 Sep 2007, 10:56   #33
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
so societal norms take precedent over the decree of god?
if not, and you assume god basically changed his mind in tandem with the developing of western culture and the values it espoused, do you not think it might have been a good idea to send down another jesus to make this fairly important shift in perspective clear?
Yeah, cause now I don't know if I should stone my brother/friend/parents to death because they don't worship god like the old testament says or not :/

Last edited by Sharur; 14 Sep 2007 at 09:05.
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Unread 13 Sep 2007, 19:26   #34
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Christians are only held to the rules of the New Testament.



emphasis added
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 13 Sep 2007, 23:04   #35
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Christians are only held to the rules of the New Testament.
So why is the Old Testament even included in the Bible?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 00:50   #36
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Because it has cool stories about dads raping their daughters and people murdering other people by the dozen. Why else do you think the book is so popular?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 06:35   #37
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
So why is the Old Testament even included in the Bible?
The biblical canon which makes up what we know as the bible has evolved over time and is a list of books that are considered to be spiritual to the christian community. The early church used the old testament pretty much exclusively, whilst the new testament has developed over time. The 4 gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were generally recognised as canon by 150~ AD whist the 27 books of the new testament that we have today were universaly accepted by 500 AD.

The old testament is made up of the hebrew bible and Deuterocanonical books(Protestants don't consider the Deuterocanonical books to be canon so they aren't included in the king james addition f.ex) and were considered biblical cannon so are included in the all copies of the bible to some degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok and who decided that?
Their are different interpretations on what elements of the Mosaic law of the old testament are to be followed. The Catholic view is that their is a threefold division of the law, moral, ceremonial and judicial and that their intention was twofold in that it was for the worship of god and the coming of christ. As such the ceremonial and judicial elements were considered completed and annuled with the coming of christ, whilst the moral aspects (ten commandments etc) were continued for the worship of god.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 09:05   #38
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Christians are only held to the rules of the New Testament.
Not that I don't trust you or anything, but I'd rather hear that from the son of god (or atleast some close relative) than from some random dude on the internet. I mean it is my eternal salvation at stake here.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 10:46   #39
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
is "you should burn gays" considered a judicial or a moral aspect?
nowhere in the bible does it say you should burn gays
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 10:59   #40
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Way to side-step the question. hi-5!
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 10:59   #41
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

No, you should probably just stone them to death. The writers of the bible were huge fans of stoning.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:03   #42
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
No, you should probably just stone them to death. The writers of the bible were huge fans of stoning.
no, the period in which the bible was written was a huge fan of stoning.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:05   #43
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Way to side-step the question. hi-5!
if it's not based on any factual evidence how do you expect me to answer?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:06   #44
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

So what then? Electric chair? Lethal injection?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:08   #45
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
if it's not based on any factual evidence how do you expect me to answer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


Also I am unable to find a passage regarding women sleeping with other women.
Oh Travler, you won't find any criticism of women sleeping with other women because it's beautiful and therefore cannot be a sin.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:15   #46
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
*snip*
Leviticus deals with jewish priestly conduct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
As such the ceremonial and judicial elements were considered completed and annuled with the coming of christ, whilst the moral aspects (ten commandments etc) were continued for the worship of god.
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Last edited by Ceadrath; 14 Sep 2007 at 11:22.
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:21   #47
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Also I am unable to find a passage regarding women sleeping with other women.
Romans 1, 26:27. 'Because of this [idolatry], God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.'
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:22   #48
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
Leviticus deals with jewish priestly conduct.
OK. is "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" considered a judicial or a moral aspect?
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:23   #49
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

judicial, i thought that was obvious
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Unread 14 Sep 2007, 11:26   #50
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Re: West Virginia and Homophobia

So homosexuality is no longer a sin?
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