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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 01:03   #1
milo
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Israel prison break

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4806714.stm

This is amusing, why even bother with extradition treaties anymore? every nation can just storm whatever prison of whichever territory they please. Infact im surprised they didn't just send in a helicopter strike. I suppose that because the PFLP didn't just send in a suicide bomber and bothered to kill a member of the government they decided to give him special treatment.

Does anyone believe the US/UK didn't collude with the Israelis on this?

btw what the hell is going on with sharon? pull the plug!
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 01:19   #2
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Re: Israel prison break

I thought this thread was going to be about something happy

Israel do as they please. Sadly, these things dont shock me anymore. Israel is a state founded on racism and seperation, so it's no wonder that they do as they please with the palestinians. This is pretty nonshocker compared to the other atrocies that is done down there every day

I don't know what collude means
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 02:47   #3
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by Snurx
I don't know what collude means
conspire
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 02:45   #4
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Exclamation Re: Israel prison break

Just another day in Hamastan.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:15   #5
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Re: Israel prison break

The UK government asked the new Palestinian government for guarantees on the safety of their troops. The Palestinians were not prepared to give any such guarantees (im guessing there was a fair bit of chest thumpin and "You support the evil Zionist regime, we will not give you or promise you anything" , and as such the troops were ordered to pull out.

The Israelis knew they were going to go. Whether through an intricate spying network, or through being tipped off by the UK or US , they knew. And once they were gone, it was open season.

Its not like the Palestinians had anything like the firepower needed to drive off elite Israeli armored units, and as such, they did what they want, when they want, as usual.

Anyone surprised by this?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:20   #6
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
The UK government asked the new Palestinian government for guarantees on the safety of their troops. The Palestinians were not prepared to give any such guarantees (im guessing there was a fair bit of chest thumpin and "You support the evil Zionist regime, we will not give you or promise you anything" , and as such the troops were ordered to pull out.
Or maybe they couldn't guarantee their safety because the Israelis can do what they want, when they want?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:30   #7
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Or maybe they couldn't guarantee their safety because the Israelis can do what they want, when they want?
Lets be brutally honest here.

If theres a task force there with UK and US troops, the Israelis are NOT going to attack. They are NOT going to cause casualties on the part of their biggest allies. It is NOT going to happen.

The safety issue was most likely for the american troops getting stoned by Palestinians.

Do I think there was collusion on the part of the US & UK troops to pull out? MOst likely yes, but hey, thats international politics. Some nations get to be the daddy, some get to be the bitch.

Palestine is once again the bitch of the international community. Hamas has made it so.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:36   #8
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
If theres a task force there with UK and US troops, the Israelis are NOT going to attack. They are NOT going to cause casualties on the part of their biggest allies. It is NOT going to happen.
O rly?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:53   #9
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Quote:
Israel's position on the incident is that it was a case of mistaken identity and was entirely due to error. Israel contends that it was assured by the United States that no U.S. ships were in the area, and that its air and naval forces wrongly identified the Liberty at various stages as either a Russian intelligence ship that was providing information to the Arabs, or as the Egyptian vessel El Quseir.
Friendly Fire.

Youre throwing Smoke and Mirrors in here dude.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:23   #10
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Palestine is once again the bitch of the international community. Hamas has made it so.
Hamas is not the reason Palestine is the bitch. Palestine has been that since the birth of Israel, Hamas is pretty new compared to that.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:51   #11
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by Snurx
Hamas is not the reason Palestine is the bitch. Palestine has been that since the birth of Israel, Hamas is pretty new compared to that.
No, youre wrong on that one Snurx. Over the years, Palestine had slowly but surely been fighting its way towards recofnition within the international community. Israel's policy towards it had become considerably less hardline.

Hamas then took power. They refused to speak to Israel. Or negotiate with anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Hamas is very much to blame.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 16:21   #12
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by Kurashima
Anyone surprised by this?
No I just hope that all the ****tards who argued against me on my point about extradition and legal sovereignty have the decency to blush.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:01   #13
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
No I just hope that all the ****tards who argued against me on my point about extradition and legal sovereignty have the decency to blush.
I'm not sure anyone ever denied that the powerful can throw their weight around in a variety of manners (like this). The dispute is whether they should, morally speaking.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:13   #14
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure anyone ever denied that the powerful can throw their weight around in a variety of manners (like this). The dispute is whether they should, morally speaking.
I've never cared about morality.

AlL I did was explain factual truth.

Perhaps you should have responded with "but Yahwe they shouldn't" rather than "but Yahwe they can't".
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 18:29   #15
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I've never cared about morality.
Well, that is pretty much all I care about in these sorts of debates.
Quote:
Perhaps you should have responded with "but Yahwe they shouldn't" rather than "but Yahwe they can't".
I never said that. The only people who used the term "can't" in the first page of that thread were yourself (saying "you can't discuss beliefs") and Alessio (twice, in relation to other matters).
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:32   #16
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Re: Israel prison break

hey guys, we're dealing with the commies not the islamists
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 17:42   #17
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by milo
btw what the hell is going on with sharon? pull the plug!
And what is the deal with airline food?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:54   #18
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Re: Israel prison break

If we send our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
If we leave our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Now, our troops leave some place, however small, and again we have people saying that it was a conspiracy.
Lose-Lose situation.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:56   #19
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If we send our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
If we leave our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Now, our troops leave some place, however small, and again we have people saying that it was a conspiracy.
Lose-Lose situation.
Why not just keep them at home?
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 20:02   #20
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If we send our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Yes, because invariably your troops impose a will that only serves your own interests

Quote:
If we leave our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
Yes, because your troops occupy and enforce a will that only serves your own interests.

Quote:
Now, our troops leave some place, however small, and again we have people saying that it was a conspiracy.
They were civilians anyway.
It was the notiifcation of the pull out to Israel and the immediate action by them right afterward that couldn't be stopped that has people crying foul.
Basically it's leaving and shouting "my back is turned and I'm not there to stop it, do what you want".

Quote:
Lose-Lose situation.
Bollocks. Behave in a decent manner internationally and you'll suddenly find you're regarded better by nearly everyone.
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Unread 15 Mar 2006, 19:56   #21
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Re: Israel prison break

i think they were civilian monitors
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 04:10   #22
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Re: Israel prison break

oh and kura we're not only discussing the rather limited concept of an arab army overrunning israel
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 12:08   #23
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Re: Israel prison break

Hmm.. I'm a muslim, an arab and a palestinean, so I think I deserve my saying in this..
(I'm not living in Palestine though, was forceed to immigration).

I don't know how can some of you blame it all on Hamas, how many times did Fath (The ex govermental admistration) tried to have a ceasefire with Isrealians? And yes, it was alawys broken by Israel first. Holding Yaser Arafat in his own office and building is considered a good think on the side of Isreal? Muslims, arabs and palestineans are just deperate of the word peace, espiecially with Isreal. They do whatever they want, and no one seems to be getting in the way. They took 'Ahmad Essadat' from the prison, a co-founder of the Libiration group (Don't know it's name in English really), in the charge of assasinating the tourisim minister 2 years ago, ohh, thank god they remembered to. This move also came after Hamas considered being a part of that Libiration group, just to get more and more support from the people. To say it's Hamas' fault is quite not fair. The Palestinean people were eager to a thought of peace, but not anymore. It's quite annoying, to see any decision almost being made by the UN to the profit of Palestine, get veto-ed by the US. Those who keep saying bla bla bla about justice and democracy, while they seem to not follow it.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 13:54   #24
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Re: Israel prison break

Look at us, we're so generous. Wait, wait, there's more. Here's the rope to hang yourselves with!!!




PS All governments have military wings kura, it's just that sometimes they're legitimate and we call them armies, and sometimes they're not and we call them terrorists and sometimes they win and we call them freedom fighters.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 17:26   #25
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Re: Israel prison break

On the point of Israel and nuclear weapons I have a book from 1982 which rates the chances of Israel possessing weapons as significantly high, they do this percentage thing and it's the highest rated country that doesn't acknowledge they possess nukes (have they actually acknowledged it even today?) So to be honest I doubt the egyptians and syrians didn't know before the yom kippur war.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 17:28   #26
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Re: Israel prison break

Nobody was suggesting that they are 'hunter gatherers'.

If you are seriously suggesting that a population can continue to increse exponentially without there being resource implications then I would suggest that you look again at your understanding of the world.

I can only conclude that you are being so ignorantly contrary because you wish to nobly defend these arab peoples from what you percieve as my racist attack. If I re-assure you that I am not basing my argument on the fact that they are arabs but simply on the objective truths of population booms will you promise me to return to rationality?
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 17:36   #27
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Nobody was suggesting that they are 'hunter gatherers'.
Oh im sorry, if you tell me what you call it when a territory only uses what it can find in its immediate vicinity ill defer to that terminology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
If you are seriously suggesting that a population can continue to increse exponentially without there being resource implications then I would suggest that you look again at your understanding of the world.
Strawman, im ridiculing your 'idea of resources' not disputing that resources can be limiting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I can only conclude that you are being so ignorantly contrary because you wish to nobly defend these arab peoples from what you percieve as my racist attack. If I re-assure you that I am not basing my argument on the fact that they are arabs but simply to objective truths of population booms will you promise me to return to rationality?
The forum doesn't like idiotic postings.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 17:44   #28
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Oh im sorry, if you tell me what you call it when a territory only uses what it can find in its immediate vicinity ill defer to that terminology.
Well for a start:
a) The stability of a resource is greatly increased if the resource is sourced locally.
b) There is a limit to how much of a resource can be externally sourced.
c) The resource of 'money' itself limits the ability of a nation to source resources externally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Strawman, im ridiculing your 'idea of resources' not disputing that resources can be limiting
That's not what a strawman is.

My argument is that no population boom can continue indefinately without natural limiting factors occuring thereinby ending that population boom.

My examples so far have been:
1) Resources (water, food, employment, socks, shoes, table napkins ... take your pick)
2) Human action (by the population itself)
3) Mess extermination events which are causatively linked to over population (eg. Famine and plague).

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
The forum doesn't like idiotic postings.
I have demonstrated heroic patience with you so far. I myself am not quite sure why. I would advise you to take advantage of this rare boon and not to abuse it.
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Unread 17 Mar 2006, 15:05   #29
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Well for a start:
a) The stability of a resource is greatly increased if the resource is sourced locally.
b) There is a limit to how much of a resource can be externally sourced.
c) The resource of 'money' itself limits the ability of a nation to source resources externally.

I have no idea how that refers to my question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe

That's not what a strawman is.

My argument is that no population boom can continue indefinately without natural limiting factors occuring thereinby ending that population boom.

My examples so far have been:
1) Resources (water, food, employment, socks, shoes, table napkins ... take your pick)
2) Human action (by the population itself)
3) Mess extermination events which are causatively linked to over population (eg. Famine and plague).

and that hasn't stopped me laughing at your population dependant food, water and employment



but you obviously need to have the last say on this, so presuming you don't actually say anything intelligent i won't bother replying, that way you can 'win'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I have demonstrated heroic patience with you so far. I myself am not quite sure why. I would advise you to take advantage of this rare boon and not to abuse it.

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Last edited by milo; 17 Mar 2006 at 15:19.
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Unread 19 Mar 2006, 21:16   #30
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
and that hasn't stopped me laughing at your population dependant food, water and employment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4822192.stm

He who laughs last laughs longest.
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Unread 17 Mar 2006, 18:43   #31
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Re: Israel prison break

I say give them a playground and some knacker whackers and let them go at it.
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Unread 19 Mar 2006, 12:27   #32
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Re: Israel prison break

there fukkin ded
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 04:07   #33
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Due to The Law of Return, and the increasingly hostile environment towards the Israeli Arabs I don't see the demographic change as such a sure outcome, I'm afraid.

iirc the number of people using the right of return peaked in the early - mid 90s when people from the former SU used the opportunity for a better life, but has declined since. The jews in western europe - n.america seem relatively content, they may care deeply about israel but seemingly not enough to return.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 11:00   #34
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Due to The Law of Return
Milo has already covered this, but it's worth re-emphasising : The demise of the Soviet Union was of course a one-time event and the migration of Jews from the fSU to Israel isn't going to happen again, barring some calamatious events in the United States where the largest Jewish population exists.

There will of course be drips and drab migration from Western Europe (especially if anti-Jewish attacks occur or they generally feel uncomfortable with Europe's growing Muslim population) and the United States (the children of the orthodox and so on) and possibly Latin America (Argentina mainly, due to economic problems) but I doubt it will ever be on the scale of the "Soviet" Jews migration which approached something like a million people.

Simply put, there are no more large scale Jewish populations who want to return to Israel. Which definitely can't be said for the Palestenians.

More generally, both inside Israel (and the occupied territories) and Israel's neighbours the Arab populations have a high birth-rate (I believe at one stage the Gaza Strip had the highest birth-rate in the world, although some have doubted those figures). Almost all of the countries around Israel have a relatively high birth-rate and their populations will grow enormously over the next fifty years if trends remain as they do.

So to summarise : Israel is going to be dealing with keeping down larger and larger Arab populations. Gerrymandering, atrocities, expulsions and the like will help in the short-term but they will not change facts. The cost of occupying / continual war will wear Israel down and eventually they will fall. Of course, for now (and certainly for the next ten to twenty years) they have the United States who stand unopposed in military might.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kura
South Africa , as i stated, reached a point where internally they had a shift of power. They didnt suffer a massive invasion from their neighbours, and the changeover of power was not a long, drawn out war.
Snurx's South Africa analogy is very valid although there are obviously differences (the whites were always a small minority and the black states which surrounded South Africa were all militarily insignificant). South Africa did have an internal shift in policy but this wasn't because the Afrikaaners woke up one day and realised they had been terrible to their black brothers all these years.

Instead, it was because elements inside the National Party (and elsewhere in South Africa's elite) began to consider the costs of apartheid were too high. Compulsory military service for instance was generally disliked - remember this wasn't playing boy scouts in the Alps like many of our European cousins seem to partake - but proper military service where you could be sent to Angola or have to deal with some township rebellion in some of the worst places on Earth. I have an in-law who tried to commit suicide simply to avoid it, for instance.

The black population was growing (and migrating) far quicker than the white population and this was unlikely to change. The ANC (and co) were growing in organisation skill and ability to disrupt/boycott/harrass the authorities (payment strikes, sabotage, etc).

In addition to this, international pariah status (sanctions, boycotts, being barred from sporting events, etc) bears down rather heavily if you're living in an otherwise priviliged lifestyle. Israel is not in such a bad position due to history but it's not like they have a high degree of international support either (let's play count the UN votes on Israel & Palestine shall we?)

But the whites could have continued. They could have, instead of putting Mandela in Robben Island for twenty odd years simply shot him in the head. They could have used their military advantage to crack down much harder on "the terrorists" in the ANC. And if you speak to some white South Africans you will find many people who believe that is precisely what they should have done. Instead they struck a bargain. Negotiated transfer of power and the whites got to keep much of their land / privilige (well, for now).

There is a quote in one of the Discworld books which says something along the lines of "If you are going to kick a troll when he is chained up, don't be around when he is unchained".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kura
There may come a point in the future where America has a crisis of its own to deal with and cannot provide fully the current support it brings to Israel, but as of right now, militarily, Israel is in a position to defend itself from any acts of aggression from its neighbours.
Yes, and no-one is doubting this. However, your original statement (in response to my comment about Israel's destruction) said that you couldn't see this ever happening. Forever is a long time and we'd be foolish to believe that American hegemony will last that long.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 15:16   #35
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
So to summarise : Israel is going to be dealing with keeping down larger and larger Arab populations. Gerrymandering, atrocities, expulsions and the like will help in the short-term but they will not change facts. The cost of occupying / continual war will wear Israel down and eventually they will fall.
Besides the fact that the idea that a nation can some how be out bred to defeat is ridiculous.

I think you're incredibly naive.

These arguments about demographic changes through birthrate effecting real political change have been around forever and never come true.

In this instance the arab birth rate is unsustainable. So your phrase "if these trends continue" make you sound like a very corrupt share dealer...

There are limited resources within these territories, food, water, jobs etc. The arabs are 'over breeding' no doubt for cultural reasons, but whenever any species (man included) over breeds in a particular area the population levels out again. Without the need for an israeli attrocity (although I expect you'll still blame israel somehow ...).

Famine or plague will come along quite naturally to cull the excess population. Or (more likely) the adults themselves will notice the diminution in resources and adapt the birth rate accordingly.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 15:22   #36
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
There are limited resources within these territories, food, water, jobs etc. The arabs are 'over breeding' no doubt for cultural reasons, but whenever any species (man included) over breeds in a particular area the population levels out again. Without the need for an israeli attrocity (although I expect you'll still blame israel somehow ...).

Famine or plague will come along quite naturally to cull the excess population. Or (more likely) the adults themselves will notice the diminution in resources and adapt the birth rate accordingly.
Or, and here's what they're thinking, they increase their resources! Now where do you think they might look?
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 15:38   #37
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yes like in India, China and Sub-Sahahran Africa.
From what i heard from the general news, china is doing quite a lot and some "extreme" measures to control their birth rates (i call it extreme if it directly or indirectly leads to killing infants which in case of china it seems it does). Am i misinformed or are you unfairly naming China there?
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 15:41   #38
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Re: Israel prison break

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
These arguments about demographic changes through birthrate effecting real political change have been around forever and never come true.
Lebanon.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 15:51   #39
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yes like in India, China and Sub-Sahahran Africa.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 16:58   #40
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Besides the fact that the idea that a nation can some how be out bred to defeat is ridiculous.

I think you're incredibly naive.

These arguments about demographic changes through birthrate effecting real political change have been around forever and never come true.

In this instance the arab birth rate is unsustainable. So your phrase "if these trends continue" make you sound like a very corrupt share dealer...

There are limited resources within these territories, food, water, jobs etc. The arabs are 'over breeding' no doubt for cultural reasons, but whenever any species (man included) over breeds in a particular area the population levels out again. Without the need for an israeli attrocity (although I expect you'll still blame israel somehow ...).

Famine or plague will come along quite naturally to cull the excess population. Or (more likely) the adults themselves will notice the diminution in resources and adapt the birth rate accordingly.

what the hell are you on about?!?!?!?!? thats the single most idiotic post you've ever made, jesus christ if you don't have anything intelligent to say...

britain's population will increase we don't talk about resorting to lol plagues and famines lol because we live in a capitalist economy where (and this may surprise you) our 'resources' aren't based on the hunter gather model. Neither are they in palestine/israel. They'll run out of resources! what berries?

you know what the increasing population will result in localised mass distortion of the earth, this will obviously obviously attract rogue asteroids that will come in and flatten the palestinians. Its all natural.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 17:02   #41
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
what the hell are you on about?!?!?!?!? thats the single most idiotic post you've ever made, jesus christ if you don't have anything intelligent to say...

britain's population will increase we don't talk about resorting to lol plagues and famines lol because we live in a capitalist economy where (and this may surprise you) our 'resources' aren't based on the hunter gather model. Neither are they in palestine/israel. They'll run out of resources? what berries?

you know what the increasing population will result in localised mass distortion of the earth, this will obviously obviously attract rogue asteroids that will come in and flatten the palestinians. Its all natural.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
There are limited resources within these territories, food, water, jobs etc.
calmio relaxio my angry young friend...

population booms are always unsustainable and they naturally level out. There is also a causative link between famine and plague and over population: there is not a causative link between over population and asteroids.
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 17:21   #42
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
calmio relaxio my angry young friend...

population booms are always unsustainable and they naturally level out. There is also a causative link between famine and plague and over population: there is not a causative link between over population and asteroids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
There are limited resources within these territories, food, water, jobs etc.
The amount of food, water and jobs (or lack of ie unemployment) aren't linked to the amount of people you decide to group together into a 'nation', an administrative region or a city.

Macau is about to starve into submission and you can re-colonise it, if you think its real it is!!!!

Britain doesn't produce enough food to sustain itself, we are utterly dependant on importing produce and processed foodstuff, clearly we should be starving. Our employment isn't dependant on our total population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
There is also a causative link between famine and plague and over population: there is not a causative link between over population and asteroids.
There is a link between a lack of plague and the successes of the pharmecutical industry (which isn't seen in hunter gatherer tribes). There are links between famine, crop failure and poverty.

The only real limiting resource in the modern world is energy, damn those arabs for keeping the oil
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Unread 16 Mar 2006, 17:25   #43
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Re: Israel prison break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
When will you stop your asteroidist propaganda milo?

It has historically been shown to be fact, FACT that asteriod impacts have had a direct impact on earth development and history, therefore ill continue my asteriodist agenda (as you call it) and show how it is both inevitable and completely natural for the palestinians to get whacked on the head by one if they keep breeding.
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