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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 06:06   #51
Travler
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
All these internalized experiences are really meaningless and could be nothing more than indigestion and an uncritical disposition.
Uncritical? Nevah!!!!! I have rarely been uncriticle in my life. You need a dose of Heathy Shame™. I think that you may have Toxic Shame™. Search these things out. You will enjoy this.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 06:52   #52
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Uncritical? Nevah!!!!! I have rarely been uncriticle in my life. You need a dose of Heathy Shame™. I think that you may have Toxic Shame™. Search these things out. You will enjoy this.
I think I would enjoy a nice sandwhich right now instead.
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Unread 1 Jul 2006, 14:44   #53
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I once saw a car traveling at high velocity crash into an invisible force behind my car and run off the road. I though I was going to die but something (and I will say it had to be God) kept that speeding car from hitting mine in such a way that the car appeared to just suddenly have hit a brick wall. There was no obvious physicall damage to that car but the way it moved did not make sense to me in terms of the dynamics that operate on a vehicle in motion even taking consideration of factors such a tire grip on the road at high speeds and tempertures.
Did you bother talking to anyone who would know about these things concerning this? And I don't mean your friend dave the pastor.

Quote:
Emperical data on the existance of God is both impossible and infinite.
The postulation of the existence of god is meaningless and unfalsifiable.



I think what I'd like to ask you is what makes you believe? Do you have any proof? Do you need proof? If you don't need proof then why do you believe in this one thing and not countless others?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 01:03   #54
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Did you bother talking to anyone who would know about these things concerning this? And I don't mean your friend dave the pastor.
I used to work as a automobile mechanic and often drove cars at high velocity in order to test that everything was working properly. I also have watched alot of car races and read books and magazines about race driving and even played some realist driving similators. So no I did not talk to anyone. It really would have required some detailed testing equipment on the vehicle in question at the time of the incident to fully explain how it was physically possible for the vehicle to move in such a way. The car just came to a stop (really just matched my speed) behind me while I was traveling 70 mph. It seem to have just suddenly slowed down. Then for no appearant reason the car spun off the road at the same speed I was traveling. What I saw in my rearview mirror was the vehicle closing on me very fast. Then it tailgated me about 2 seconds then just spun out. I am going to attribute it God but even if you do not believe in God it would have been very surreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The postulation of the existence of god is meaningless and unfalsifiable.
Nothing wrong with trying to prove what you cannot see. After all gamma rays and ultraviolet light would be God-like to primative man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think what I'd like to ask you is what makes you believe? Do you have any proof? Do you need proof? If you don't need proof then why do you believe in this one thing and not countless others?
That is a long story as to why I believe now. Once I did not. I am still working on putting together my thoughts about the whole journey.

If you want proof you must first define faith.

Like I said how I came back to God and Jesus was totally amazing when I really think about. The Glory of the Lord is so great with all that was required just for me to decide to give my life to Jesus. To compare it would be like spending all the money in Europe for a baseball card. Sorry for the bad analogy but its all I could think of at the moment.

BTW You may want to research how the LOTR books came about and why they were written. It might suprise you to research this. Heh.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 01:21   #55
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I used to work as a automobile mechanic and often drove cars at high velocity in order to test that everything was working properly. I also have watched alot of car races and read books and magazines about race driving and even played some realist driving similators. So no I did not talk to anyone. It really would have required some detailed testing equipment on the vehicle in question at the time of the incident to fully explain how it was physically possible for the vehicle to move in such a way. The car just came to a stop (really just matched my speed) behind me while I was traveling 70 mph. It seem to have just suddenly slowed down. Then for no appearant reason the car spun off the road at the same speed I was traveling. What I saw in my rearview mirror was the vehicle closing on me very fast. Then it tailgated me about 2 seconds then just spun out. I am going to attribute it God but even if you do not believe in God it would have been very surreal.
Don't worry, I've attributed it to nodrog deciding to intervene in your life. You owe him some thanks.


Quote:
Nothing wrong with trying to prove what you cannot see. After all gamma rays and ultraviolet light would be God-like to primative man.
They've both been empirically verified dude. Your belief in god is no different to a belief in magic. I'm not saying you have to change it I just find your concentration on it when you're posting on GD rather dull.

Quote:
That is a long story as to why I believe now. Once I did not. I am still working on putting together my thoughts about the whole journey.

If you want proof you must first define faith.
Assuming you don't mean the secondary meaning of the word faith, ie religion, I'd define faith as belief without evidence or irrational belief.

Quote:
Like I said how I came back to God and Jesus was totally amazing when I really think about. The Glory of the Lord is so great with all that was required just for me to decide to give my life to Jesus. To compare it would be like spending all the money in Europe for a baseball card. Sorry for the bad analogy but its all I could think of at the moment.
Idiotic?

Quote:
BTW You may want to research how the LOTR books came about and why they were written. It might suprise you to research this. Heh.
I know he felt catholicism and the bible were hugely important in his works. I'm not sure what this proves.


I don't think your approach is very helpful either. It's very evasive and you quite often seem to deliberately misunderstand people. That comment earlier concerning fire (or brimstone I forget which) appearing in the destruction of sodom or gomorrah or your comment above about ultra-violet light. It's just unnecessary prevarication and it's really quite annoying.


PS Amusingly I'm watching LOTR right now on dvd. Stop, praise Jesus, I believe!
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:00   #56
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think what I'd like to ask you is what makes you believe? Do you have any proof? Do you need proof? If you don't need proof then why do you believe in this one thing and not countless others?

[...]

Assuming you don't mean the secondary meaning of the word faith, ie religion, I'd define faith as belief without evidence or irrational belief.
You and others seem preoccupied with this misinterpretation of 'faith', and persist in placing it in opposition to 'empirical reasoning', 'evidence', 'proof'. I would argue that you misuse the word 'proof' in this context. For example, empirical reasoning in science is based upon judgements of probability rather than certainty: 'scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty - some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain' (McGrath, Dawkins' God, 2005). And science is clearly not infallible. I mean, what was all that stuff with ether about? At the end of the 19th century phycisists were insisting that there was nothing more to be done in their field.
Religious belief is a essentially akin to a moral judgement. The question of whether God exists lies beyond demonstrative proof. It is more like the question of whether democracy is better than totalitarianism. This is itself no reason to dismiss any conclusion. It is still possible to make a rational judgement.
Do you ever question the things you believe in? You cannot disprove the existance of God. Nor can you explain the origin of the universe. How is faith in a God any more irrational than atheism, for example? To pass from agnosticism to aetheism is as much a leap of faith as religious belief.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:04   #57
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Boogster
You and others seem preoccupied with this misinterpretation of 'faith', and persist in placing it in opposition to 'empirical reasoning', 'evidence', 'proof'. I would argue that you misuse the word 'proof' in this context. For example, empirical reasoning in science is based upon judgements of probability rather than certainty: 'scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty - some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain' (McGrath, Dawkins' God, 2005). And science is clearly not infallible. I mean, what was all that stuff with ether about? At the end of the 19th century phycisists were insisting that there was nothing more to be done in their field.
Religious belief is a essentially akin to a moral judgement. The question of whether God exists lies beyond demonstrative proof. It is more like the question of whether democracy is better than totalitarianism. This is itself no reason to dismiss any conclusion. It is still possible to make a rational judgement.
Do you ever question the things you believe in? You cannot disprove the existance of God. Nor can you explain the origin of the universe. How is faith in a God any more irrational than atheism, for example? To pass from agnosticism to aetheism is as much a leap of faith as religious belief.
I find it disturbing how you can misuse so many perfectly rational ideas in a few poorly written paragraphs.

the keystone answer to your house of cards is "what's wrong with agnosticism?" and it's cousin "why aren't you an agnostic?"
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:06   #58
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
I find it disturbing how you can misuse so many perfectly rational ideas in a few poorly written paragraphs.

the keystone answer to your house of cards is "what's wrong with agnosticism?" and it's cousin "why aren't you an agnostic?"
There is nothing 'wrong' with agnosticism.

I am not an agnostic because I took a leap of faith. I think I mentioned this.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:07   #59
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Boogster
There is nothing 'wrong' with agnosticism.

I am not an agnostic because I took a leap of faith. I think I mentioned this.
you did mention it

you also presumed that that was an answer
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:12   #60
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
you did mention it

you also presumed that that was an answer
An answer to what for heaven's sake? Do you want my life story? I'm sure I've given it before. Now let someone answer my questions. There'll be ample time for Christian-baiting afterwards.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:14   #61
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Boogster
Do you ever question the things you believe in? You cannot disprove the existance of God. Nor can you explain the origin of the universe. How is faith in a God any more irrational than atheism, for example? To pass from agnosticism to aetheism is as much a leap of faith as religious belief.
I don't believe in things, if they're not provable it's not all that interesting really.
Proof by contradiction is not the only kind of proof.
Because faith requires one to abandon at least some perfectly acceptable scientific theoreys, atheism doesn't.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:17   #62
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Which perfectly acceptable scientific theories?

On a semi-related point, do you believe any scientific theories you do not understand?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:20   #63
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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An answer to what for heaven's sake? Do you want my life story? I'm sure I've given it before. Now let someone answer my questions. There'll be ample time for Christian-baiting afterwards.
"i took a leap of faith" is not an answer to the question "why aren't you an agnostic?"

(please do not fall in to the traveler habit of using your professed chistianity as an excuse for being stupid. I do not christian bate. i do not christian hate. I actually love joshua bar joseph - he is far better than kumarbis after all)
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:23   #64
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

that would depend on how literal you are, and what faith you have. If you believe the old testament you have some fairly obvious flaws, such as the existance of giants, a boat large enough to store two of every species, without them killing eachother, the earth being created in seven days, the original sin, the method of creation of man and the fact that man has "dominion over all beasts", the list goes on and on and on...
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:32   #65
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Which cuh-razy scientific theory disproves original sin? This is pretty silly stuff.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:33   #66
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
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Which cuh-razy scientific theory disproves original sin? This is pretty silly stuff.
it's unkind to mock original sin.

a lot of people believe in it.

despite how silly it is
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 03:40   #67
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Well of course, Yahwe - you disprove it.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:05   #68
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
You and others seem preoccupied with this misinterpretation of 'faith', and persist in placing it in opposition to 'empirical reasoning', 'evidence', 'proof'. I would argue that you misuse the word 'proof' in this context. For example, empirical reasoning in science is based upon judgements of probability rather than certainty: 'scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty - some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain' (McGrath, Dawkins' God, 2005). And science is clearly not infallible. I mean, what was all that stuff with ether about? At the end of the 19th century phycisists were insisting that there was nothing more to be done in their field.
Religious belief is a essentially akin to a moral judgement.
Yes okay science doesn't always lead to the best answers the first time, but so what, it is still based on rational exploration of observable phenomenon, unlike Christianity which is just nonsensical fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
The question of whether God exists lies beyond demonstrative proof. It is more like the question of whether democracy is better than totalitarianism. This is itself no reason to dismiss any conclusion. It is still possible to make a rational judgement.
I don't see a connection between debating the existence of God and a preference for a style of government. On the latter at least you can create some kind preferred outcome in place of 'better' such as 'improved economy' 'higher morale' and then do a study, you can do no such thing with the other. What rational answer, in the face of overwhelming evidence, can you come to except 'what a bunch of hogwash' ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Do you ever question the things you believe in? You cannot disprove the existance of God.
And that's the problem, isn't it. It's not falsifiable. I can invent a million things that you're not going to be able to disprove, are you going to begin believing in those things too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Nor can you explain the origin of the universe.
Actually I believe some headway is being made here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
How is faith in a God any more irrational than atheism, for example? To pass from agnosticism to aetheism is as much a leap of faith as religious belief.
This is a much abused concept. No actually, considering that all the evidence practically speaks for itself, it takes a lot less faith to recognize that the history of the Earth as explained in the Bible is impossible, that much of what is discussed in the Bible is impossible. The loss of credibility of this resource, has been thorough and complete. If you choose to believe what it says, you're either ignorant, or compartmentalizing and re-interpreting as you see fit.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:07   #69
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Well of course, Yahwe - you disprove it.
Original Sin is the concept or believe that an all knowing all loving god (singular) created the earth. This all powerful (and singular) god created only two humans. One male and one female. He created for them a place to live. A place without want. Where everything these two humans ever needed grew on trees.

This god was full of love and kindness. This god knew everything that was ever going to happen and everything to be known.

Said god had one arbitrary law. That neither human being should eat a certain fruit.

The fruit was eaten.

The loving god stopped being loving. The all knowing god pretended that he had no idea that this could ever have happened.

The loving and all knowing god decided to hurt these two first humans.

The loving and all knowing god was so angry that he decided to hate all of the children of these two first humans for ever and ever.

As a god I find that original sin disproves itself.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:17   #70
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Original sin is doubly ridiculous since theres no real support for it in the Bible anyway, and Augustine pretty much pulled it out of his ass in the 5th century. It's also one of the most poisonously evil doctrines ever created by a human, so well done I suppose.

This is one of the many areas in which the Jews are far more sensible than the Christians.

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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:18   #71
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Alongside accounting perhaps?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:20   #72
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Original Sin is the concept or believe that an all knowing all loving god (singular) created the earth. This all powerful (and singular) god created only two humans. One male and one female. He created for them a place to live. A place without want. Where everything these two humans ever needed grew on trees.

This god was full of love and kindness. This god knew everything that was ever going to happen and everything to be known.

Said god had one arbitrary law. That neither human being should eat a certain fruit.

The fruit was eaten.

The loving god stopped being loving. The all knowing god pretended that he had no idea that this could ever have happened.

The loving and all knowing god decided to hurt these two first humans.

The loving and all knowing god was so angry that he decided to hate all of the children of these two first humans for ever and ever.

As a god I find that original sin disproves itself.
I've read some interesting counter-arguments for the problem of original sin. None of them were very persuasive, though.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:21   #73
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by s|k
I've read some interesting counter-arguments for the problem of original sin. None of them were very persuasive, though.
I've yet to see proof that you can read
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:21   #74
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Original sin is doubly ridiculous since theres no support for it in the Bible anyway, and Augustine pretty much pulled it out of his ass in the 5th century. This is one of the many areas in which the Jews are far more sensible than the Christians.
Then what's all that 'born into sin' stuff about in the New Testament?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:22   #75
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
I've yet to see proof that you can read
Oooooh the big scary yahwe with the personal attack. I better watch out, he's gonna say something really mean next! ****ing idiot.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:28   #76
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by s|k
Then what's all that 'born into sin' stuff about in the New Testament?
The traditional Christian doctrine of original sin which came from Augustine is largely based on Genesis rather than the New Testement; to quote from official Catholic dogma:

Quote:

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul". Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

- http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm.
This reading is not implied by the text. It's not how the Jews interpreted Genesis before Jesus, it wasnt how anyone interpreted it while Jesus was supposedly preaching, and its not how the non-Christian Abrahamic religions interpret it today. Its a 5th century invention.


edit: the remarks in the New Testement that relate to Original Sin (eg those of Paul, Jesus doesnt mention it afaik) are generally consistent with the standard (non-Catholic) reading that Adam's actions created the possibility of sin. But that's very different from the Augustinian doctrine than sin is hereditary and we are literally born as sinners. The whole idea of salvation is uniquely Christian in any case, and this is what provides the background for their reading of Genesis.

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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 04:53   #77
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Which cuh-razy scientific theory disproves original sin? This is pretty silly stuff.
Well in one sense its hard to 'disprove' original sin, since the Catholic church refuses to define exactly what they mean by it being 'passed on to each generation', nor do they define any sort of decision procedure by which we can establish whether a particular person is a sinner. However they do claim that original sin is hereditary, and the mechanisms behind heriditary traits are fairly well understood within biology. So far, noone has managed to find a gene that corresponds to 'being a sinner', and although this may be premature, it seems unlikely that they ever will.

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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 05:11   #78
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by s|k
Yes okay science doesn't always lead to the best answers the first time, but so what, it is still based on rational exploration of observable phenomenon, unlike Christianity which is just nonsensical fantasy.
Even to believe in science and emperical data take a great deal of faith in that which you have not seen or measured yourself. You can read what has been recorded and maybe watch a video or see a picture. Without being there and being a part of the gathering of that data you take it on faith that these people are being accountable and not just making stuff up.

Did you know that some people hold the belief that man did not land on the moon? There is a conspiracy theory that the supposed moon landing was filmed on a soundstage in the UK. Personally I think we did go to the moon but the scenes on TV may(for possible reasons of security) have been created to show what was expected. Since I was not there I have to take it on faith that man landed on the moon and all video is valid and true.

Now what is so different from taking science on faith and taking a religeous belief on faith? Well with some things from science it can be duplicated like an experiement. You cannot duplicate a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. You can have a similar relationships as others but it will be your own.

Just remember, you are unique, just like everyone else.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 05:16   #79
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

If you dont understand the difference between 'accepting on faith' that the world's scientific community isnt engaged in a massive conspiracy to deceive you, and (eg) 'accepting on faith' that 3000 years ago there was a flood which destroyed almost the entire earth while leaving no evidence of its occurence, then I'm really not sure what to tell you. Perhaps you can say that its just a matter of degree, but this understates just how large the difference in degree actually is.

The moon landing is an interesting example to use, given that a lot of people who actually know the science have went through painstaking efforts to show that many of the arguments used to support the 'conspiracy' claims are either problematic, or have no basis in reality. If you want to accept the moon-landing 'on faith' then thats your choice and I'm not going to criticize you, but all this really means is that youre too disinterested/lazy to go out and read the volumes that have been written on the subject and decide for yourself. Here's a good place to start.

You cant just say "Ok well theres 2 different alternatives, so choosing between them must just be a matter of faith", because this ignores the concept of evidence. In many cases, there is sufficient evidence to justify dismissing one of the alternatives as being flat out wrong. Of course, there are cases where the evidence is fairly equal between both sides and its impossible to choose between them with any degree of certainty. But this is not the situation which Christianity, with its many outlandish unsupported claims, is currently facing.

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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 05:32   #80
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The moon landing is an interesting example to use, given that a lot of people who actually know the science have went through painstaking efforts
gone through

and there was a flood btw.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 05:50   #81
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If you dont understand the difference between 'accepting on faith' that the world's scientific community isnt engaged in a massive conspiracy to deceive you, and (eg) 'accepting on faith' that 3000 years ago there was a flood which destroyed almost the entire earth while leaving no evidence of its occurence, then I'm really not sure what to tell you. Perhaps you can say that its just a matter of degree, but this understates just how large the difference in degree actually is.

The moon landing is an interesting example to use, given that a lot of people who actually know the science have went through painstaking efforts in order to show that many of the arguments used to support the 'conspiracy' claims are either problematic, or just have no basis in reality. If you want to accept the moon-landing 'on faith' then thats your choice and I'm not going to criticize you, but all this really means is that youre too disinterested/lazy to go out and read the volumes that have been written on the subject and decide for yourself. Here's a good place to start.
Yeah I am too lazy. Like I said I was using it an example. I have been to the Johnson space center and seen with my own eyes the great care used to store and study the moon rocks that are there. So I think that we did go to the moon. But I also hold out the idea that we the public did not get the full picture. We saw what we were allowed to see and that some information was kept back from us in the interest of security.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 05:53   #82
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Even to believe in science and emperical data take a great deal of faith in that which you have not seen or measured yourself. You can read what has been recorded and maybe watch a video or see a picture. Without being there and being a part of the gathering of that data you take it on faith that these people are being accountable and not just making stuff up.
Well why don't you give me an example of something made up, and then we can talk about it.
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Originally Posted by Travler
Did you know that some people hold the belief that man did not land on the moon? There is a conspiracy theory that the supposed moon landing was filmed on a soundstage in the UK. Personally I think we did go to the moon but the scenes on TV may(for possible reasons of security) have been created to show what was expected. Since I was not there I have to take it on faith that man landed on the moon and all video is valid and true.

Now what is so different from taking science on faith and taking a religeous belief on faith? Well with some things from science it can be duplicated like an experiement. You cannot duplicate a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. You can have a similar relationships as others but it will be your own.
Okay, science is not based on faith. Get over it.
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Originally Posted by Travler
Just remember, you are unique, just like everyone else.
You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile. etc
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 05:55   #83
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
and there was a flood btw.
Yes there were quite a few of them, all over the place at different times. But there was no flood that covered the entire Earth.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 06:10   #84
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by s|k
Yes there were quite a few of them, all over the place at different times. But there was no flood that covered the entire Earth.
And I though you were only 29. Clearly you have resided on Earth the entire 3-10 billion years this planet has been around.

Prove to me that there is a tommorrow. Have evidence for all the world to see that tommorrow will come. Then we can start to prove God.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 06:33   #85
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Travler
And I though you were only 29. Clearly you have resided on Earth the entire 3-10 billion years this planet has been around.

Prove to me that there is a tommorrow. Have evidence for all the world to see that tommorrow will come. Then we can start to prove God.
There are things I am willing to expect to happen, for which I do not need an overwhelming amount of evidence because they are already incredibly and glaringly obvious. I don't understand how time works, I'm sure some people have a better idea than I do. I expect there will be a tomorrow, but perhaps there may not be one. I can't provide evidence one way or the other. There are things I am willing to expect to happen, even though I might not understand them. But none of those things even closely resemble the fictitious shit that's stuffed in your brain. Speaking to you on IRC is impossible, you jump from one bad analogy to the other. They are completely besides the point, completely unrelated, completely meaningless.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 06:49   #86
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Is this going to turn into another 30 page "Travler" thread? Should we not of learned to ignore this sort of banter by now?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 07:07   #87
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
And I though you were only 29. Clearly you have resided on Earth the entire 3-10 billion years this planet has been around.

Prove to me that there is a tommorrow. Have evidence for all the world to see that tommorrow will come. Then we can start to prove God.
Wait... Don't most devout christians believe the world is only some thousands of years old? That sounds like you almost don't believe your own religion's doctrine.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 07:26   #88
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Person A, by choosing to live with slightly lower living standards could donate more money to charity and save potentially thouands of lives. He does not choose to do this. Person A knows that every penny he spends on some useless gadget for his own short-term amusement could have gone on helping others. this is something he knows, but chooses not to think about.

His actions have a direct impact on the less fortunate and in some cases result in the death of others due to his inaction.

Assuming he repents the rest of his sins (but not this one because he doesn't really think of it as a sin), will this person go to hell for allowing thousands of people to die so he could have a more comfortable lifestyle?
I was waiting for a person B somewhere in there. Seriously though, his actions have an indirect, not a direct, impact. Nor does he know that by devoting some of his wealth things will actually be improved and lives saved, as he depends on somebody else to utilise any finances he would commit (unless he also intends to become a missionary).

That gadget he has purchased may well have been manufactured in very poor areas where his money is also vital to others. There is no way to make a positive and definite link between his inaction and a loss of lives in a poorer country. Even if there were, if he did not realise that he is commiting a sin (and by that I don't mean to say that he is ignorant), then he will not be punished for it. It is for God to enlighten person A.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 14:03   #89
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by s|k
Yes okay science doesn't always lead to the best answers the first time, but so what, it is still based on rational exploration of observable phenomenon, unlike Christianity which is just nonsensical fantasy.
This is nonsense. Do you understand what 'rational' means?

Quote:
And that's the problem, isn't it. It's not falsifiable. I can invent a million things that you're not going to be able to disprove, are you going to begin believing in those things too?
No. And this is exactly why religious faith is a rational choice.

Quote:
Actually I believe some headway is being made here.
Well, isn't that cute? You believe.

Quote:
This is a much abused concept. No actually, considering that all the evidence practically speaks for itself, it takes a lot less faith to recognize that the history of the Earth as explained in the Bible is impossible, that much of what is discussed in the Bible is impossible. The loss of credibility of this resource, has been thorough and complete. If you choose to believe what it says, you're either ignorant, or compartmentalizing and re-interpreting as you see fit.
At least we've moved on to a discussion of probability rather than polar certainties. You've skipped a step here, though. Go back to the God question: if God exists, these things are not impossible.

My point remains. Any discussion of faith should not be ignorantly compartmentalized into a blind trust/empircism dichotomy that merely reflects a mis-interpretation of a word that has been subject to rational thought for centuries. The distinction simply does not reflect how science works, let alone how Christians perceive faith.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 14:05   #90
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Squidly
Wait... Don't most devout christians believe the world is only some thousands of years old? That sounds like you almost don't believe your own religion's doctrine.
I am afraid you are wrong. Keep reading the papers though. Good day.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 14:22   #91
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
At least we've moved on to a discussion of probability rather than polar certaintiIES
I'm not sure why you keep saying science isnt about certainties, because this isnt really true. For example, its certain that the atomic hypothesis is correct. This isnt a probabilistic statement - the amount of supporting evidence is so great that you would have to be terminally ideological or ignorant to doubt it. Ditto for the germ theory of disease, the idea that the brain is responsible for consciousness, the chemical structure of benzene, and countless other claims that have been conclusively established.

Science is, like everything else, fallible. But this isnt really related to certainty, nor is it especially interesting.

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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 15:15   #92
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
You and others seem preoccupied with this misinterpretation of 'faith', and persist in placing it in opposition to 'empirical reasoning', 'evidence', 'proof'. I would argue that you misuse the word 'proof' in this context. For example, empirical reasoning in science is based upon judgements of probability rather than certainty: 'scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty - some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain' (McGrath, Dawkins' God, 2005). And science is clearly not infallible. I mean, what was all that stuff with ether about? At the end of the 19th century phycisists were insisting that there was nothing more to be done in their field.
This is silly. Knowledge is belief, belief is rational, based on the best supporting evidence, or irrational, not based on evidence. Neither type of belief precludes being wrong and neither type precludes being right. Believing in god is the second type of belief and it's infinitely so the second type of belief precisely because you can't prove it wrong. Statements that can't be proven to be incorrect, and I don't mean just we don't have the requisite technology I mean logically proving it to be incorrect is ridiculous, are intrinsically meaningless.

Quote:
Religious belief is a essentially akin to a moral judgement. The question of whether God exists lies beyond demonstrative proof. It is more like the question of whether democracy is better than totalitarianism. This is itself no reason to dismiss any conclusion. It is still possible to make a rational judgement.
So why believe it? Why believe specifically? Why not believe countless other things that lie beyond proof?
Quote:
Do you ever question the things you believe in? You cannot disprove the existance of God. Nor can you explain the origin of the universe. How is faith in a God any more irrational than atheism, for example? To pass from agnosticism to aetheism is as much a leap of faith as religious belief.
Of course I do. No, but the burden of proof lies on you as the one making the claim. So what? It's more irrational because atheism is the position from which you say "I won't believe in this unless you offer proof", ie I won't believe in this unless you give me sufficient reason. Agnosticism is the position, atheism is the result.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 17:20   #93
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I don't understand how time works
"There is no such thing as time. There is matter and only matter.
Man, in order to understand matter, invented time."

Anyway, to the religious folk out there:

I understand why you believe there is a higher power and in a way I do too. I would call myself an agnostic though.
What I don't understand is why you think that the higher power is the one described by Christian (or jewish etc) teachings.
If, for example, there was some mass miracle on a global scale that everyone witnessed and was ultimate proof there is a higher power watching over us, what makes you think it is definately the Christian God and not some other?

It really confuses me how people can make that illogical step between "wow that miracle is undeniable proof there is a God" and "The God must be the one described in the bible and therefore the whole bible must be true"

Surely it's all about interpretation and everyone will interpret it in a different way and therefore all religions are false?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 17:25   #94
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
if God exists, these things are not impossible.
No actually, they are still impossible.

Explain these various phenomena:

the Earth's statigraphy
Carbon isotopes and their half life
the distribution of carbon isotopes on the ocean floor
the distribution of carbon isotopes in permafrost
Other dating methods: Radiopotassium, Uranium series, geomagnetism, archaeomagnetism, thermoluminesence, elctron spin resonance, obsidian hydration, fission track, dendrochronology
the fossil record - Dinosaurs, evolution, the distribution of homonids across the globe
DNA recombination
the human appendix
the panda's thumb
conjoined twins
Spectrometry and elemental composition of stars
The earth's non-notable location in the galaxy/universe
the distribution of stars in the galaxy
the vast amount of evidence that points out the formation of the solar system
background radiation
the history of Christianiity in the context of the development of monotheism
the thousands of reinterpretations of the bible and the thousands of denominations
Gilgamesh
Herodotus
Cultural differences, cultural evolution, cultural history of people

The list goes on...

Please, the only way you can ignore all this evidence is by closing your eyes and ears and making an effort to stay ignorant. The lazy argument to make is 'I don't know how to account for it, but with God anything is possible!' Yes but the easy answer is that the Bible is just one of many, many different religions, written by people with no clue as to what the Universe was actually like and hence explains why it is so completely wrong about everything (that people used to think it was right about). It is painfully obvious to anyone who's not emotionally attached to believing in the Bible, what the easy answer is. It is fiction. Absolute fiction. It was written by ignorant people. It was adopted by ignorant people. It continues to be practiced by ignorant people.

And that is the truth.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 05:56   #95
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
to the religious folk out there:

I understand why you believe there is a higher power and in a way I do too. I would call myself an agnostic though.
What I don't understand is why you think that the higher power is the one described by Christian (or jewish etc) teachings.
If, for example, there was some mass miracle on a global scale that everyone witnessed and was ultimate proof there is a higher power watching over us, what makes you think it is definately the Christian God and not some other?
The miracle you are looking for has already happened for Christians. The resurection of Jesus Christ has to be the most unbelievable part of the Christian faith. It is also the 2nd most deciding factor for belief in Christ with the 1st being that he gave his life for us to forgive our sins and that through him we would have life more abundantly. Here is some scripture that portrays the resurection.

"You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "

He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 09:10   #96
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The miracle you are looking for has already happened for Christians. The resurection of Jesus Christ has to be the most unbelievable part of the Christian faith.
Actually for me it's transubstantiation. I mean, surely someone was just taking the piss?
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 09:34   #97
Ste
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The miracle you are looking for has already happened for Christians. The resurection of Jesus Christ has to be the most unbelievable part of the Christian faith. It is also the 2nd most deciding factor for belief in Christ with the 1st being that he gave his life for us to forgive our sins and that through him we would have life more abundantly.
You really haven't answered my question at all.

But let me get this straight. The miracle that you needed in order to believe a book, is described in the book itself?
Surely you see the enormous flaws in your logic?

More questions for you then:
1. Why Christian and not another religion?
2. How the hell can you think that a book is the basis for a belief system?
3. Maybe another God resurrected Jesus and you guys are still wrong.
4. Maybe Jesus wasn't resurrected at all but the few guys that had been around him were so distraught that he was killed that one of them put on a fake beard and pretended he was jesus and everyone believed him.

And I would also appreciate you going back and answering my original questions as well.

DO NOT use bible scriptures as proof of anything.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 10:51   #98
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Exclamation Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

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Originally Posted by Boogster
There is nothing 'wrong' with agnosticism.
It's a poof's atheism, that's what it is.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 10:56   #99
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Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
It's a poof's atheism, that's what it is.
Agnosticism is just atheism under a different theory of knowledge.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:47   #100
Marilyn Manson
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Exclamation Re: [Christianity] A question to those of religious leanings

Like I said, benders.
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