If you could go back in time...

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Inventing the microprocesser(...)

If I can just go back, once, then I would go back and teach them as much engineering knowledge as I could manage. Theoretical physics seems a bit pointless, but teaching more advanced irrigation, medical or construction techniques a millennia earlier would presumably make a massive difference.

Originally Posted by Vampy

I'd like to go back and teach relativity theory to the ancient greeks and watch their brains explode....and then see how much difference it made to the future.

How much do you actually know about these things though? i'm sceptical over whether it would be possible to make huge changes to intellectual history, becuase if the context wasnt right for your work, it probably wouldnt be appreciated or catch on. If you wanted to make people believe you werent a babbling lunatic, then you'd have to go into extremely intricate details about what you were proposing - you couldnt just go "in the future we have TELEVISIONS where electrons hit a PHOSPHOROUS SCREEN and we see PICTURES" - youd have to explain in step-by-step detail how these work, and 99% of people just dont know enough to do this.

You definitely wouldnt be able to teach them advanced physics - noone would believe special/general relativity or quantum physics without seeing a lot of evidence for it, and there just isnt the equipment back then in order to do any interesting experiments (where are you going to get the apparatus for a Michelson-Morley experiment, and even if you could get it, how could you convince people that the results actually implied a new concept of space/time, unless they already had the background of electrodynamics against which to appreciate it etc). On a sidenote, if you had a time-machine then a lot of our advanced physics would be wrong anyway.

Bear in mind that the people you would be dealing with are going to be far more intelligent than you. Its not like Aristotle/Archimedes etc were bumbling peasants with very little clue about the world, who would sit there wide-eyed while you imparted all your futuristic knowledge. We're talking about intellectual giants here, some of the smartest people to ever have lived, and unless it was very obvious that you knew what you were talking about they would probably dismiss you as a crank. If you wanted them to believe in Newtonian physics for example, you'd have to persuade them that it actually solved problems they were interested in, so unless you actually knew how to use it to do real-world astronomy/optics/etc, I doubt they'd listen. They dont really teach this stuff to undergraduates either - I doubt that 99% of physics students would be able to (eg) derive Kepler's laws for planetery motion if asked.

I think the best things you could do intellectually would be to make a number of small nudges in the right direction. For instance, its well known that Archimedes almost discovered calculus, so going back and having a talk to him about about the basics of fluxions/limits would probably lead to calculus beginning over 2000 years ago. Or perhaps you could try to persuade the Greeks that having a good system for writing numbers was important - the main limitation of their mathematics was that they had no concept of algebra, and approached all problems by converting them into geometry. I'd love to be able to sit down Archimedes and Eudoxos, teach them basic highschool algebra, and then use it to show them how their geometric problems could be solved more easily through the methods of analytic geometry, and how number theory works better when you arent constanttly drawing triangles. I'd then teach them a highly abstract proof that one of their classic constructions (eg doubling the cube) was impossible, and it would probably blow their minds. Going back and teaching modern logic (predicate calculus) would also make a big difference to intellectual history - again though, youd have to pick the right context. I'm not convinced the Greeks would have accepted it, but if you'd showed it to someone like Leibniz then he would have picked up the ball and ran with it.


Another _huge_ thing to do would be to show them how to build telescopes - it was when Galileo built his that astronomy really kicked off. They would probably realise that Aristarchus was right about the heliocentric universe after all.


But despite all this, I think the best changes you could make would be political. What difference does it make if Greek science advances a few centuries, if civilization is still going to be snuffed out for 1000 years after the fall of Rome? Preventing the Dark Ages would probably be the single biggest thing you could do, but God knows how you'd go about it. Stopping the spread of Christianity would almost certainly help, but you'd probably be better off going back to the root and preventing the spread of Neo-Platonism that was the seed from the it grew. Stopping Plato from writing all his highly destructive ideas might be a good way of going about it, but then you'd have to teach Aristotle yourself.

Regardless of its contribution to the fall of Rome, eliminating Christianity would probably be a good idea, since the Western world wouldnt be corrupted by a decadent approach to ethics. The best bet would be to somehow aggressively promote Aristotle's Nicomacean Ethics, while also writing about the vitally important concept of free-will and responsibility, which is the one good thing to emerge from the Christian ethical tradtion.


Another big thing would be to stop Bahgdad being destroyed by the Mongols in the thirteenth century. From what I know, the city at that time was flowering, and close to being a new Athens. Massive developments in science were occuring, mathematics and the arts were progressing, Greek texts were being studied, and the influence of religion was declining (they were essentially having the Enlightenmen several centuries before the Christian world). And then the entire city was destroyed, with pretty much every single inhabitant being killed during one of the worst massacres in known history. I once saw a historican comparaing the effect as being "similar to if a nuclear bomb had been dropped on Athens while Aristotle was alive". While that may be exaggerating sligntly, preventing it from happening would almost certaintly have huge historical ramifcations, not the least of which would be changing the form of modern Islam (it probably wouldnt have been left behind by the Enlightment like it has been, and we wouldnt have such a problem with fundamentalists).

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

How much do you actually know about these things though?

I'm presuming I'm given more than ten minutes to prepare for this trip. You'd want to have years of planning in order to be able to speak the correct lanauge/dialect anyway. Unless you plan on shouting a lot.

edit: Thinking about it, the easiest way would be to write the ideas down in a series of books (slowly introducing various concepts) and then deposit them where someone appropriate (e.g. Aristototle) would find them.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

You definitely wouldnt be able to teach them advanced physics - noone would believe special/general relativity or quantum physics without seeing a lot of evidence for it

Bear in mind that the concept of experimental evidence didn't really come in until Galileo.

[JonnyBGood]

High-five Nietzsche probably.

I'd like to see the razing of carthage, the battle of cannae from a hill, the fall of constantinople, the construction of the great wall, man walking on the moon, spend a few days at the tomb of Jesus Christ after he died and witness the conversation in which the decision to use the atomic bomb was made. I wouldn't change any event in the past because I don't feel that I would have that right.

[Deepflow]

I'd turn up to Hitler's school and pretend to be a Jew and kick him in the nuts and then run away. Oh wait, I already did that

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Another big thing would be to stop Bahgdad being destroyed by the Mongols in the thirteenth century. From what I know, the city at that time was flowering, and close to being a new Athens. Massive developments in science were occuring, mathematics and the arts were progressing, Greek texts were being studied, and the influence of religion was declining (they were essentially having the Enlightenmen several centuries before the Christian world). And then the entire city was destroyed, with pretty much every single inhabitant being killed during one of the worst massacres in known history. I once saw a historican comparaing the effect as being "similar to if a nuclear bomb had been dropped on Athens while Aristotle was alive". While that may be exaggerating sligntly, preventing it from happening would almost certaintly have huge historical ramifcations, not the least of which would be changing the form of modern Islam (it probably wouldnt have been left behind by the Enlightment like it has been, and we wouldnt have such a problem with fundamentalists).

we had toledo

[Boogster]

I would chat a bit with Jesus, join Robin Hood's gang, talk with Tolstoy and hang with Tolkien.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

stuff

I love the way you point out in great detail the enormous problems associated with "teach some clever Greeks a bit of Physics" immediately before saying "stop the Mongol hordes destroying a city" as if it'd be the easiest thing in the entire world. What are you going to do, rotate all the signs saying "Baghdad 500 miles" so they're pointing towards Ashby de la Zouche?

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

we had toledo

been there

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I love the way you point out in great detail the enormous problems associated with "teach some clever Greeks a bit of Physics" immediately before saying "stop the Mongol hordes destroying a city" as if it'd be the easiest thing in the entire world. What are you going to do, rotate all the signs saying "Baghdad 500 miles" so they're pointing towards Ashby de la Zouche?

As far as I know the caliph being an arrogrant dick was a large part of the problem so if you could slap him around a bit and make him less complacent, then his city might have had a better chance. If they had prior warning they might also have been able to get allies etc.

[milo]

Assuming this is the real vampy, id go on time holidays, shoot a few t-rex that kind of thing. I agree with nod that telling the ancient greeks about special relativity would be little more than bollocks, if someone started talking to us now about concepts from 2000 years in the future when we don't have any method of verifying them would be meaningless. Its easy to dismiss people in the past as simpletons living uncomplicated lives but genius of someone like newton in conceptualising calculus as well as applying it to solve problems is immence. The same goes for the ancient greeks, if anything id forget the physics and develop their maths, since abstract toolmaking doesn't really need experimental verification. But the past doesn't really interest me, id much rather go to the future.

[milo]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I love the way you point out in great detail the enormous problems associated with "teach some clever Greeks a bit of Physics" immediately before saying "stop the Mongol hordes destroying a city" as if it'd be the easiest thing in the entire world. What are you going to do, rotate all the signs saying "Baghdad 500 miles" so they're pointing towards Ashby de la Zouche?

study up on the military strategy of the mongols and develop ways to counter it with the people of baghdad? alternatively kill their khan as they're approaching the city.

[Ste]

by the way, is it a time and space machine? becuase if it wasn't then it would be pretty difficult getting out to the middle east...

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Ste

by the way, is it a time and space machine? becuase if it wasn't then it would be pretty difficult getting out to the middle east...

You could fly out there now and then use the time machine...

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by milo

study up on the military strategy of the mongols and develop ways to counter it with the people of baghdad? alternatively kill their khan as they're approaching the city.

Or teach people about gunpowder

[midge5]

There isn't really much I would do. The same as most people say, get the lottery numbers and shit. Maybe go back to before the Wales vs Romania game in 1994 and make sure Paul Bodin wasn't made penalty taker.


Out of curiosity I might go back to when I was 10 and not hide the confirmation attendence letters so that I could go to the same secondary school as all my mates, just see how differently my life would have turned out that way. Then when I get to uni I wouldn't have to worry about forgetting everyones names over and over and getting really embaressed as I would already know them \o/


Visiting all of the ancient wonders of the world would be quite cool as well, and some of the other buildings like the Library of Alexandria.


Watching Queen perform at Live Aid or their final concert at Wembley would also be something I would like to do.


Other than that I quite liked Jonny's idea of just watching over major events. Wouldn't mind seeing the battles of Cannae and Alesia. Watch the discussions on creating the American constitution, the Cabinet on entering some of the different wars we have been involved in and the famous speeches given over the years.

[dda]

This is a very interesting question.

I would probably like to go places at older times just to get a sense of what they looked like.

I would only take brief trips, especially to any time before the invention of various things.

I have no desire to spend any particular amount of time any time or place where indoor plumbing is not available.

I really don't think I would like to rub shoulders with the masses at a time which predated regular bathing and deoderizing body products.

I wouldn't like to spend time in eras before air conditioning.

To hang out for a brief period of time and walk around places that are known to me but in the 1920's would be cool, especially if I could take a digital camera with me to record the trips.

I would try to do a little home work on the place and time I was going to in order to be sure that I didn't sit down in the middle of a knife fight or an outbreak of some dread disease. I would also get every vaccination known to modern science before going anytime or anywhere.

I would try to figure out a way to bring back some artifacts which would allow me to make a profit on the trips but how that would work I'm not sure.

[milo]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Or teach people about gunpowder

The Chinese used rockets against the Mongols at the Great Wall, the Mongols launched them at the Arabs in Baghdad, the Arabs used them against French crusaders, the French fired them at the English in the Hundred Years War.

http://www.space.com/news/spacehisto...ns_000702.html


they'd have laughed as they plundered you could teach the people of baghdad more about metallurgy in order to build canon and the like, but the mongols of that period were, and hopefully will stay, the most ardently militaristic though culturally and intellectually destructive arseholes on earth.

[Chunderbunny]

- I'd have studied art at a-level
- I'd have taken school far more seriously
- I'd have bought a house and rented it out at uni

[Vaio]

I wouldn't have shagged Barbara

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Chunderbunny

- I'd have studied art at a-level
- I'd have taken school far more seriously

Something's wrong with this picture.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by milo

study up on the military strategy of the mongols and develop ways to counter it with the people of baghdad? alternatively kill their khan as they're approaching the city.

Well, the original question didn't specify any restrictions on what you could take (like in Terminator) so presumably a few rocket launchers / sniper rifles could turn the tide of a battle. Admittedly I don't have any of those things but I'd imagine I could find someone willing to sell them given enough time / money (money gained from lottery scams).

Having said all this, going back to these eras would probably eliminate half their population with modern contagions, wouldn't it?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Having said all this, going back to these eras would probably eliminate half their population with modern contagions, wouldn't it?

Wear a hasmat suit from a clean room.

[Chunderbunny]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Something's wrong with this picture.

You just don't get it....

[Cooling]

I would go back in time and destroy the time machine before it was used.

Hopefully this would cause a logical paradox and **** up the time stream.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by dda

I would try to figure out a way to bring back some artifacts which would allow me to make a profit on the trips but how that would work I'm not sure.

Would carbon dating show the artifact to be old, or new, since you brought it through the time machine?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Cooling

I would go back in time and destroy the time machine before it was used.

Hopefully this would cause a logical paradox and **** up the time stream.

I doubt a time machine would be possible to destroy.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by sniborp

Would carbon dating show the artifact to be old, or new, since you brought it through the time machine?

You wouldn't necessarily have to have something from the far past, apparently certain comic books from the 30's have sold for over $250k, so that seems the easiest way of making money (and I doubt they'd bother carbon dating something so recent).

[Cannon_Fodder]

You also have to wonder, would it still be worth it in the 'now' if you took it 'then'?

[Tomkat]

Oh if we're not going along the "change my own life" path, then I guess I'd probably do with JBG did - I really wouldn't change anything (havent any of you played Red Alert or read Butterfly by HG Wells?!).

I'd probably go to a bunch of various times in history in the last 50-100 years and meet as many famous people as possible (before they got absurdly famous), then get my picture taken with them all

Noone would believe me of course, as I'd still be young and so would they, but I think it'd be pretty neat.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Well, the original question didn't specify any restrictions on what you could take (like in Terminator) so presumably a few rocket launchers / sniper rifles could turn the tide of a battle. Admittedly I don't have any of those things but I'd imagine I could find someone willing to sell them given enough time / money (money gained from lottery scams).

I may be being pessimistic here, but I've a niggling feeling that history might take a rather different turn if the Caliph of Baghdad were running around 13th century Arabia armed with rocket launchers.

I'd quite like to be born, you know.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I may be being pessimistic here, but I've a niggling feeling that history might take a rather different turn if the Caliph of Baghdad were running around 13th century Arabia armed with rocket launchers.

I'd quite like to be born, you know.

I'd imagine he might run out of rockets eventually.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I'd quite like to be born, you know.

Well it's Nod who wants the dirty Middle Easterners to be dominant, not me. And I'm presuming there's a shield protecting me from the vagaries of time and causality anyway.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Well it's Nod who wants the dirty Middle Easterners to be dominant, not me. And I'm presuming there's a shield protecting me from the vagaries of time and causality anyway.

If we assume time travel similar to "The Men Who Murdered Mohammed", then you can only affect you, rather than anyone else.

[Alki]

Tell Einstein to have more sex

[bwtmc]

Originally Posted by Ste

but seriously, i'd probably kick the shit out of all the little shits that made school hell for so many people.
then i'd sell the use of my time and machine to go back and beat up all the other little shits at other peoples schools.

I'd be a super hero

Hey, those little shits are still around now, even at other peoples' schools! It'd be risky sure, but that's the life of a super hero. Be a teacher or something. You can live that dream without a time machine

[Ste]

Originally Posted by bwtmc

Hey, those little shits are still around now, even at other peoples' schools! It'd be risky sure, but that's the life of a super hero. Be a teacher or something. You can live that dream without a time machine

well, the people they're beating up can't afford me at the minute. when they're older they'll be more bitter as well.

[Alki]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Apparently he was a bit of a goer as it happens.

really? I thought he barely spoke/talked with his wife or did he have several women on the side after his sexy brain, my knowledge is poor

edit - didnt he get divorced or:\

[qebab]

I would go back in time, and I would definately stay there. The 50's maybe, to see all those legendary football players. Being a noble in Europe around 1000-1200 AD doesn't sound that bad either. I don't quite like the world as it is now, but I can't even begin to imagine how I would change it for the better by going back in time.