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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 11:07   #51
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Re: Britain

I don't know about you, but I find living in a police-state quite exciting.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 11:30   #52
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Re: Britain

I think the police have acted superbly.

London is currently threatened by terror attacks and we must defend ourselves. Part of that defence is to act upon suspicious behaviour and investigate it before another bomb can go off.

Now, many foreign people come and live in London and whether people like it or not, it is people of foreign appearance that are carrying out such attacks. While you could say it is awful that an innocent foreigner carrying a rucksack, looking suspicious, playing with a phone on the underground was arrested it is sadly going to be a fact of life for some time to come. Deal with it.

If people dont like it they can always leave this great city of their own free will, until things are back to normal it is inevitable that 'inncocent' people will be caught up in these matters. Anyone unfortunate enough to be 'arrested' and subject to anti terrorism investigations still has the benefits of being innocent until proven guilty. I see nothing wrong with people who want to be part of our society being picked up and investigated when the police have reason to belive they are a threat to us. Its a small price to pay for all the benefits Britains enjoy.

Our police do a fantastic job and if jonny foreigner doesnt like it they can take the first plane/train/automobile out of here.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 11:31   #53
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
I think the police have acted superbly.

London is currently threatened by terror attacks and we must defend ourselves. Part of that defence is to act upon suspicious behaviour and investigate it before another bomb can go off.

Now, many foreign people come and live in London and whether people like it or not, it is people of foreign appearance that are carrying out such attacks. While you could say it is awful that an innocent foreigner carrying a rucksack, looking suspicious, playing with a phone on the underground was arrested it is sadly going to be a fact of life for some time to come. Deal with it.

If people dont like it they can always leave this great city of their own free will, until things are back to normal it is inevitable that 'inncocent' people will be caught up in these matters. Anyone unfortunate enough to be 'arrested' and subject to anti terrorism investigations still has the benefits of being innocent until proven guilty. I see nothing wrong with people who want to be part of our society being picked up and investigated when the police have reason to belive they are a threat to us. Its a small price to pay for all the benefits Britains enjoy.

Our police do a fantastic job and if jonny foreigner doesnt like it they can take the first plane/train/automobile out of here.
Define 'foreigner'?
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 11:41   #54
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Re: Britain

He did say 'foreign appearance'.
I can kind of see where he's coming from.
However, we wouldn't have any of this shit if we'd only conduct our foreign policy in a less gung-ho manner.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 11:44   #55
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Re: Britain

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Define 'foreigner'?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=foreigner
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 12:26   #56
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
He did say 'foreign appearance'.
That still doesn't mean anything. Are Irish people of foriegn appearance? Are Germans?

If I see a black person in London, I do not presume they are "foriegn" since (depending on the area) there is a good chance they were born in the UK.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 12:28   #57
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That still doesn't mean anything. Are Irish people of foriegn appearance? Are Germans?
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 13:10   #58
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Re: Britain

Yeah us Irish never committed any terrorist acts in the UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
Anyone unfortunate enough to be 'arrested' and subject to anti terrorism investigations still has the benefits of being innocent until proven guilty.
No they don't.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 13:43   #59
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Re: Britain

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

No they don't.

Yes they do. The journalist in the article wasnt found guilty of anything nor would he be if he as innocent.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 13:53   #60
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That still doesn't mean anything. Are Irish people of foriegn appearance? Are Germans?

If I see a black person in London, I do not presume they are "foriegn" since (depending on the area) there is a good chance they were born in the UK.
Its not that hard to identify anyone with irish or german ancestory, just like it isnt hard to identify an african from a jamaican.

Maybe living in London makes us a little more able to see these things.

Being of 'foreign appearance' means a lot. We know that terrorists we are facing right now are muslim extremists. There are not many white muslims, so we can assume that most will be darker skinned. Therefore if our police see a darker skinned person acting suspicious on the underground they are perfectly within their right to challenge them based on what we know of the enemy. This is irrespective of their actual nationality, we all know there are british muslims who are dark skinned who could be considered of 'foreign appearance'
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 14:18   #61
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Re: Britain

I thought by foreign apparance he was refering to skin colour not nationality, and refering to foreign apparance as compared to the majority of Britons, not just those in a certain area.
But who knows, who knows.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 14:32   #62
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Re: Britain

From the article you cant read that he has a foreign appearance ... and even being arrested / interviewing friends/ searching the flat / adding a note to his 'PNC' sounds a bit much for being innocent imo.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:44   #63
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by jupp
adding a note to his 'PNC' sounds a bit much for being innocent imo.
it is not 'his' PNC it is the PNC

and given the mind boggling amount of sensationalised nonsense being typed in this thread I shall point out that PNC stands for Police National Computer.

All arrests, cautions, warnings, reprimands, use of stop and search for any crime are logged on the PNC. This is perfectly standard practice.

The only people with high enough clearance to get access to whether a person has ever been arrested or cautioned are the people who 'need to know'. It's not posted on the internet ffs. So if a person has been arrested 20 times on suspicion of child abuse but never prosecuted and he applies to become a child minder then the knowledge of his arrest is available to the child minder company on the basis that they 'need to know'.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 16:59   #64
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Re: Britain

i was unsure about this as it was not really clear in the article and i expected it to be some sort of personal file about the person. i could make up several things from PNC that fit to it ...

ty yahwe ;>
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 17:06   #65
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
Yes they do. The journalist in the article wasnt found guilty of anything nor would he be if he as innocent.
They stole* half his stuff and didn't give it back after they found out he was innocent and there wasn't really any evidence for him to be charged.**


People can be held for 2 weeks without any being charged with anything apart from "they look suspicious and might want to blow something up even if we can't find a bomb."

It seems a bit on the harsh side, even if it might technically be what the police are able to do with any suspect but never carry out***.

Edit:

*ok, technically it's "perminantly gathering evidence"
** They shouldn't probably have carried it nearly so far - check him, his pack, his laptop. They should give policemen basic bomb training so they know what a bomb looks like instead of getting upset over any old set of wires.
***I'm sure there's fewer rights for terrorist suspects than any other sort of person.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 22:07   #66
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it is not 'his' PNC it is the PNC

and given the mind boggling amount of sensationalised nonsense being typed in this thread I shall point out that PNC stands for Police National Computer.

All arrests, cautions, warnings, reprimands, use of stop and search for any crime are logged on the PNC. This is perfectly standard practice.

The only people with high enough clearance to get access to whether a person has ever been arrested or cautioned are the people who 'need to know'. It's not posted on the internet ffs. So if a person has been arrested 20 times on suspicion of child abuse but never prosecuted and he applies to become a child minder then the knowledge of his arrest is available to the child minder company on the basis that they 'need to know'.
Would this make it possible that; If a class full of children took a dislike to a certain teacher they could all independently make a claim of sexual assault, which might immediately be proven as nonsense, but these accusations would remain against the teacher’s name? Meaning they could never find another job involving children?
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 00:48   #67
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
Yes they do. The journalist in the article wasnt found guilty of anything nor would he be if he as innocent.
I think we're approaching the word "benefits" from the wrong angle here. Whereas I seem to view it as "not being subject to unnecessary prison time" you seem to view it as "not being shot in the face repeatedly from point-blank range".
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 11:06   #68
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think we're approaching the word "benefits" from the wrong angle here. Whereas I seem to view it as "not being subject to unnecessary prison time" you seem to view it as "not being shot in the face repeatedly from point-blank range".

The way I see it is we live in a lawful society and as part of that we as the public must let the police carry out the job we pay them for to protect us. If that means rounding up suspicious looking foreigners, or englishmen for that matter, and having to spend some time in prison while they veryfy their innocence, then so be it.

To be honest, I wouldnt like it that much if it happened to me but I can see the bigger picture and would rather spend a few nights behind bars than be hit in the face with 10lb of explosives.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 11:17   #69
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
To be honest, I wouldnt like it that much if it happened to me but I can see the bigger picture and would rather spend a few nights behind bars than be hit in the face with 10lb of explosives.
I have heard this line of argument a few times and while it's fair enough on one level, it usually comes from people who would (realistically) not be amongst the most likely to be stopped / detained / etc.

Saying "I don't mind giving up a bit of my liberty for a little security" is one thing, but saying "I don't mind giving up other people's liberty" is quite another.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 11:45   #70
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Saying "I don't mind giving up a bit of my liberty for a little security" is one thing, but saying "I don't mind giving up other people's liberty" is quite another.
Except Im not saying that.

If I were to be mistaken for a thug who beat up and old lady and was detained while my innocence was proved, as I say I would be a bit annoyed but that if that is the price I must pay to live in a free society then its not a great deal.

Perhaps its time that people who are more likely to be targetted by the current wave of anti-terrorism to realise that in order to be a good British citizen means that sometimes you must act for the good of the land and not the individual.

Really, the temporary suspension of libery when police have good reason to suspect a person of crime on the scale of what we have already seen is not worth arguing about.

Unless or course the person or persons involved dont consider Britains security as high a priority as, for example, their faith.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 11:58   #71
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Re: Britain

I love the fact that the police are revealing all their "what makes someone suspicious" criteria. Next time I want to blow up a train I'll know exactly what not to do.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 12:19   #72
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
Perhaps its time that people who are more likely to be targetted by the current wave of anti-terrorism to realise that in order to be a good British citizen means that sometimes you must act for the good of the land and not the individual.

Really, the temporary suspension of libery when police have good reason to suspect a person of crime on the scale of what we have already seen is not worth arguing about.
I think it is so CUTE when people assume that the growth of police power of the state and the suspension of normal liberties and rights won't apply to THEM, it will only ever be used on (insert visible subclass here), and if (same visible subclass) does not like it they should just leave...
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 12:21   #73
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
If I were to be mistaken for a thug who beat up and old lady and was detained while my innocence was proved, as I say I would be a bit annoyed but that if that is the price I must pay to live in a free society then its not a great deal.
And if I were a billionaire I wouldn't mind a 99% tax-rate. If I was a woman I wouldn't mind someone groping my tits on the tube. If I was black I wouldn't mind Bernanrd Manning.

However, I am not any of these things and therefore my opinion is of dubious value.
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Perhaps its time that people who are more likely to be targetted by the current wave of anti-terrorism to realise that in order to be a good British citizen means that sometimes you must act for the good of the land and not the individual.
The good of the 'land' is ultimately the good of the individual. Arresting people for having dark skin is not actually good for anyone. Did stop and search actually dramatically reduce street crime in London? Not to my knowledge. Did it piss off loads of black people? Yes.
Quote:
Really, the temporary suspension of libery when police have good reason to suspect a person of crime on the scale of what we have already seen is not worth arguing about.
"Good reason" is a particularly flexible term. If someone has a tip-off from a reliable source that I am making bombs in my home, then fair enough. But being of "foriegn appearance" is not a good reason (imho) to suspect anyone of anything.
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Unless or course the person or persons involved dont consider Britains security as high a priority as, for example, their faith.
I don't really see what "faith" has to do with anything since none of the people who carried out any of the bombings were visibly indicating their faith at the times of the attack afaik. So far you've basically said "of foriegn appearance" which, when pressed, seems to boil down to "people with dark skin".
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 14:41   #74
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And if I were a billionaire I wouldn't mind a 99% tax-rate. If I was a woman I wouldn't mind someone groping my tits on the tube. If I was black I wouldn't mind Bernanrd Manning.

However, I am not any of these things and therefore my opinion is of dubious value.

The good of the 'land' is ultimately the good of the individual. Arresting people for having dark skin is not actually good for anyone. Did stop and search actually dramatically reduce street crime in London? Not to my knowledge. Did it piss off loads of black people? Yes.

"Good reason" is a particularly flexible term. If someone has a tip-off from a reliable source that I am making bombs in my home, then fair enough. But being of "foriegn appearance" is not a good reason (imho) to suspect anyone of anything.

I don't really see what "faith" has to do with anything since none of the people who carried out any of the bombings were visibly indicating their faith at the times of the attack afaik. So far you've basically said "of foriegn appearance" which, when pressed, seems to boil down to "people with dark skin".
I dont think an opinion in less dubious just because you are not part of the group that would be affected. Although in any of the situations you quote I doubt that any of these are your actual opinion. They are only dubious in their absurdity.

The good of the individual is not ultimately the good of the land. Say for example in a society made up of 60% black people and 40% white people it was found that 90% of all crime was committed by Black people. Now the individual would probably say that it is wrong to have a police policy that specifically targets blacks more than whites and given that the blacks were in the majority you would expect the majority to share this view. This is not good for the land. What is good for the land is to actively police the Black community and reduce crime. This will of course mean that many individuals wont like it, but it would be good for the whole community.

Since the above is an example so I dont want to be drawn into a black and white debate

I should imagine that the police force work to guidelines as to what is deemed 'good reason' and what is not. In the article you will notice that the guy displayed a series of actions that the police deemed to give them good reason, and rightly so. When combined with a fitting appearance of what we know terrorists to look like, which I havee defined as 'foreign appearance' they are totally justified in taking action.

Faith has a lot to do with it in the current situation of muslim extremists, as shown by the british suicide bombers, it was the reason they carried out the attacks. I'm saying that british citizens should regard britains security above all else and give the example that faith may be used by some british citizens as something they regard as a higher priority.

The reason I gave this as an example is because I have seen several programs where muslim leaders have stated that there is a large proportion of british muslims who regard their faith higher than their citizenship. This is fact.

Its not about skin colour, I already acknowledged in a previous post that some muslims are white, but the fact remains to date all attacks carried out by muslim extremists in the name of Al Queda have been of destinctly foreign appearance despite their actual citizenship. To put it bluntly they have all be dark skinned, so why shouldn't the police act more swiftly when they see a dark skinned person acting suspiciously within their guidelines?

Afterall, it will benefit everyone on UK soil of all colours.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 16:59   #75
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
I think it is so CUTE when people assume that the growth of police power of the state and the suspension of normal liberties and rights won't apply to THEM, it will only ever be used on (insert visible subclass here), and if (same visible subclass) does not like it they should just leave...

Yeah, and I think it is so CUTE when people either dont read a post properly or choose to quote selected parts. ITS SIMPLY ADORABLE!
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 17:26   #76
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Re: Britain

I see we've reduced ourselves to sensationalism again.

after all why let facts spoil a good argument?
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 02:07   #77
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Re: Britain

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Originally Posted by CrashTester
Now the individual would probably say that it is wrong to have a police policy that specifically targets blacks more than whites and given that the blacks were in the majority you would expect the majority to share this view.
Argument ad populam and straw man in one. I wish I was like you.

Simply looking at the colours of the people being picked up is utterly irrelevent. What is relevent is the reasoning behind them being taken into custody and how they're treaded once they're there. How the populace feels it's being treated is not really useful as a measure of how well they're treaded, because sensationalism always wins out against reason when you're restricted to soundbites.
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 02:14   #78
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Re: Britain

Yeah but you're only saying that because you're black mark
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 02:27   #79
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Re: Britain

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Yeah but you're only saying that because you're black mark
Nigga in da house yo
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 03:58   #80
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Re: Britain

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
America and Britain are probably the two biggest police states in the world. People just don't know it.
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 04:01   #81
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Re: Britain

I'd love to hear this reasoning expounded upon.
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 11:02   #82
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Exclamation Re: Britain

I would have thought North Korea and Burma are probably the two biggest police states in the world, but there you go.
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 12:37   #83
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Re: Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
His complaint about them not letting him phone his girlfriend before they raided the flat was pretty stupid imo. "Hey honey, how are you? Good, good. Can you flush the crack stash down the toilet and throw the bomb making kit out the window? Ta." (in-code).
note that he did actually call her at 10:06, so any coded message would have been sent then. It's not like if he was a terrorist that he would just call his gf and say hi I'm in a police cell the first time, and then only tell her to dump all the naughty things he has after they tell him that they will search his property.
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Unread 29 Sep 2005, 12:41   #84
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Re: Britain

My personal favourite is:

Quote:
I am carrying a bulky rucksack, and kept my rucksack with me at all times;
well there are posters all over the damn underground telling you to keep your bags with you. I bet if he had walked away from his rucksack the reasoning will be

Quote:
I am carrying a bulky rucksack, and left it in the floor and walked away from it;
If you are standing by yourself, you are loitering and may be shot. If you are standing in a group you may be plotting, and may be shot.
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