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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:29   #51
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
I dont believe there are many people here who would stand by and watch someone kick a dog to death in the street. So why do these same people think its OK to torture animals for any reason at all? I personally dont.

.
once again the word torture is used. How do you know that they are tortured? do you even know how animal experimentation is carried out? under what conditions? what laws and guidelines cover the care of the animals? I know what my bets on
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:33   #52
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Here is a viable alternative - dont experiment on animals, and if that hinders the development of new medicine, then so be it. If medical progress required forcible experimentation on humans then I suspect most people would say "well in that case - to hell with medical progress!". If animals have rights, why is the situation any different?

how is that a viable alternative? medical research will go on - as more and more people get cancer, it becomes more urgent to find a cure. And why would you give anything that you eat rights? For us to recognise animals as our equals the whole of human society would have to change, and I will lay odds at any money you want to give that that never happens
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:34   #53
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
how is that a viable alternative? medical research will go on - as more and more people get cancer, it becomes more urgent to find a cure. And why would you give anything that you eat rights? For us to recognise animals as our equals the whole of human society would have to change, and I will lay odds at any money you want to give that that never happens
completly aggree, completly aggree.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:39   #54
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Re: vile despicable people

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Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
how is that a viable alternative?
Well - how isnt it? As I said, if medical progress required harming people then a lot of people would probably be content to just remain where we are. Animal rights activists obviously feel the same way about animals.

Quote:
. And why would you give anything that you eat rights? For us to recognise animals as our equals the whole of human society would have to change, and I will lay odds at any money you want to give that that never happens
Then theres no problem with cosmetic testing?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:40   #55
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Re: vile despicable people

Animals only have the rights we give them, they have no fundamental rights, they'll never have, and they certainly wouldn't give us those.

How stupid can one be.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:47   #56
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Re: vile despicable people

nod, you are like a dog with a bone. No matter what arguments are thrown your way you use circular logic to tie your points together. It's like you discard things that you don't want to see. That isn't a discussion on any level as your argument does not grow but remains static and by extension you will never win an argument as you are arguing (rather than discussing) for arguments skae.

Just once i would like to see something on here that is your actual opinion, rather than you just arguing for arguments sake
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:49   #57
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
once again the word torture is used. How do you know that they are tortured? do you even know how animal experimentation is carried out? under what conditions? what laws and guidelines cover the care of the animals? I know what my bets on

OK to try and explain why I use the term torture and why I believe I have a good understanding of what goes on in labs, let me say this.

I watched a TV program about medical research a couple of years ago and they were explaining some research into spinal damage, like what Christopher Reeves had. To test a treatment they explained that they used rats to see what benefits it would have.

Now, by the time the TV show was made the rats were dissected to see the results, they showed pictures of them on a slab and the scientist explained what he was talking about.

He said both rats had severed spinal cords and that one was given the experimental treatment and the other wasnt. The one that was treated showed signed of recovery from the damage whilst the other poor critted suffered in silence.

Now how many rats have you ever seen naturally (or in a zoo for that matter) with a broken back? I bet you've never seen two at the same time have you, so how come the scientist was that lucky given that he just so happened to need two at that particular time?

Then he explained their backs were broken deliberately for the tests. Now if that is not torture I dont know what is.

There are enough people on this earth with severe spinal damage who would welcome any type of treatment offered that may allow them to walk again which in my eyes negates the need to destroy two health rats lives.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:52   #58
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
nod, you are like a dog with a bone. No matter what arguments are thrown your way you use circular logic to tie your points together.
But there havent really been any arguments thrown my way. Noone has gave a single reason why medical testing is somehow ok, but other forms of testing (eg cosmetic) arent.

Quote:
Just once i would like to see something on here that is your actual opinion, rather than you just arguing for arguments sake
I thought my position was fairly clear The entire animal rights movement is nonsense, and I have no problem with any form of animal research.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:56   #59
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Re: vile despicable people

sorry, i actually hadn't seen you post that last bit before so my apologies, as to the first though, there have been at least threee different attempts by myself and others to explain what we feel to be the difference between medical and cosmetic testing. But considering your stance, its little wonder that you disagree with them
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:58   #60
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn
out of interest is that because you think animals don't feel pain or because you simply do not care about them ?

I simply do not care since I rate any human life above animal life.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:58   #61
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
Why do people think that abusing animals for the sake of medicine is OK? It simply isnt.
I think in general nature would disagree. There is a coherent food chain on this planet, the spiders eat the flies, small birds eat spiders, etc. Lions don't have pangs of guilt about that zebra they killed last week, they needed to kill it to survive. Likewise, humans are quite entitled to kill animals to eat as we are, naturally, omnivores.

The main difference between us and most animals is that we developed far superior intelligence, and we can do things like "medical research" in order to further our species. Sadly, we also developed "feelings" and - as mentioned earlier - we have a habit of anthropomorphising these creatures and assigning them values and rights. And while it's admirable to be concerned about the wellbeing of animals generally, we shouldn't let that get in the way of the survival of our species. If we can gain any information for medicine, or saving human lives, then why shouldn't we use animals? It's no different to eating a burger to survive, it's just survival on a longer term.

I think this also explains the "why medical research is ok but cosmetic research isn't". There are plenty of examples in nature of species killing "lower" species for survival, but very few I would imagine in using them to look prettier.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:58   #62
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
nod, you are like a dog with a bone. No matter what arguments are thrown your way you use circular logic to tie your points together. It's like you discard things that you don't want to see. That isn't a discussion on any level as your argument does not grow but remains static and by extension you will never win an argument as you are arguing (rather than discussing) for arguments skae.

Just once i would like to see something on here that is your actual opinion, rather than you just arguing for arguments sake
so often is this kind of ad hominem used when someone isn't entirely morally comfortable with the position they're arguing.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:01   #63
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Re: vile despicable people

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
It proves that they're not being forced into their actions as the only course of action avaliable to them. They chose to do what they do instead of peacefully agitating in favour of their views.
I don't think anyone said they were forced. Nor that this was their only course of action.
Quote:
Your earlier asertion that people who believe in animal rights are being disengenuous when they don't go along with these people is simply false.
I never said they were disenguous. I said it makes perfect sense if you believe in animal rights. Sure, you may still disagree, but that's a different point.
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It could take ten years to change the law, but it will take forever to scare all guinea pig farmers into submission. In fact, it will never happen.
So? These things aren't mutually exclusive and I'm sure in the ALF's mind one guinea pig saved is worth it. Just like Slave rebellions were worth it despite the need for a legal abolition of slavery.

Think about it - imagine human beings were being bred for animal testing (yes, that's a silly comparison, but that's how some of these people see it). Wouldn't it make sense for people try to stop the operations?

But obviously you're correct - the ALF aren't going to "win", but that's fairly obvious.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:01   #64
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn
out of interest is that because you think animals don't feel pain or because you simply do not care about them ?
I think its normally useful to distuinguish between the reasons people might give when asked to justify a position, and the real reasons why they support it. Although I'd like to say that I support experimentation because I dont think animals feel pain, I almost certainly wouldnt change my stance if it were demonstrated that animals have feelings. So yeah, I guess I just dont care.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:03   #65
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
so often is this kind of ad hominem used when someone isn't entirely morally comfortable with the position they're arguing.

is that a dig at me or nod?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:08   #66
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Well im sure that if you stopped for a minute, you could hopefully see that animal testing is often a means to end, to find new diseases, test new drugs which could help in the fight of cancer



what a relief judging that you support this.



Thats very admirable (there is no sarcasm there, I truly believe it) However I dont think I could do it, although as a person you are seeming alot better.



hrmmm but you said...





Ok so youre quasi vegetarian. Once again alot of respect to you, I know its difficult as my three sisters are all vegetarian.



I live in a family who are vegetarians who dont eat meat. So no I dont stuff my face with meat, although I love it and if its a choice between veg or meat, meat any day.



I think you will find I dont wear whatever fashion tells me. Saying this my older sister does buy me an array of fashionable clothes each time she returns from new york and yes I wear them.



Finally yes I am worth more than an animal. Being an equal to an animal is a load of bollacks. I can respect an animal, but I will never see them as an equal.



Thankgod thats your opinion and not the consensus .
My comment about not being extreme refers to the fact that I dont go and camp out at guinea pig farms to force their closure. If I could prevent animal cruelty that was happening before my eyes then I would and perhaps even to the extreme.

While you may consider yourself worth more than an animal your real worth is how others value
you. I value all life as equal, I would no sooner want to harm your life than I would even a mouse. And I believe that is the fundamental difference between animal rights activists and the rest .
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:09   #67
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
is that a dig at me or nod?
you.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:13   #68
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Re: vile despicable people

so do you believe that it is right for them to use terror tactics? and if so, where is the line drawn? were the IRA right, ETA? various middle eastern terrorists?

when is terror tactics ever a viable option?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:16   #69
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
when is terror tactics ever a viable option?
Depends what you mean by terror tactics, but the Partisans and French Resistance et al in WW2 probably engaged in some threats / violence which could be labelled in that way yet was still probably "a viable option".
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:16   #70
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
you.


fair enough, lets see: i see nothing wrong with my stance, i have made perfectly clear what i feel about both medical and cosmetic testing, however, i had misread nod (or perhaps missed one of him posts where he explained his stance) and was therefore confused by (what i thought was ) his obstinacy. If you look a couple of posts down from what you quote, my apology is there along with my reasoning and my understanding of him stance.


happy now?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:23   #71
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But there havent really been any arguments thrown my way. Noone has gave a single reason why medical testing is somehow ok, but other forms of testing (eg cosmetic) arent.
Somehow, I doubt you really need to have explained it to you, but hey. It is entirely possible for someone to have a layered or tiered system of priorities, with higher ones taking priority over lower ones. A simplified model could look somewhat like this, from high to low:

1. Survival of humans
2. Well-being of humans
3. Survival of animals
4. Well-being of animals
5. Prettiness of humans
6. Prettiness of animals

In such a system, medical testing would break rules #3 and #4, but as it is required, or at the very least, used for enforcing rules #1 and #2, they supercede the former ones, and as such this form of testing is deemed acceptable. Cosmetic testing on the other hand, is used solely for rule #5, but is superceded by rules #3 and/or #4, making it unacceptable. Animal rights can be more than a black-and-white issue of being in favour or against them.

A typical animal-rights activist could have a different order of priorities, which would make the eating of animals unacceptable, or in extreme cases having animal survival as a higher priority than that of humans.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 14:09   #72
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
oh i get it it's just a protest against out-sourcing jobs.

I guess they are going to have to dig up a hell of alot of indian graves then.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 14:13   #73
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But there havent really been any arguments thrown my way. Noone has gave a single reason why medical testing is somehow ok, but other forms of testing (eg cosmetic) arent.
I suppose it depends on how much you value various lives. if one values human life more than one values animal life, but one values animal life at all, and feels that animals, or at least certain classes of animals can suffer, then it is quite justifiable to allow medical testing but not cosmetic, though admittedly it then depends on how much one values saving human life, and how much one values looking pretty.

personally I don't think that looking pretty carries enough value to cause any forced suffering whatsoever, but I feel that allieviating human physical suffering carries a higher weight than the value of forced animal suffering.

of course all these arguments are based on a load of assumptions about values and whether things can suffer or not.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 14:17   #74
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
.... I would no sooner want to harm your life than I would even a mouse. .....
interesting. now I am not trying to bait you or anything, but if it came to a choice between his life and a mouse, then whose life would you choose and why?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 14:19   #75
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by «Messiah»
Lions don't have pangs of guilt about that zebra they killed last week, they needed to kill it to survive.
Nor does it do experiments on the local antelope.

People who are for animal experiments often use the argument that it is done for the survival of the human species, as demonstrated in this thread.

We dont need to eat animals in order to survive, we can eat fruit, vegetables and nuts. These days we dont need animal hide for clothing, we can manufacture materials very well. We already live twice as long as our ancestors, and through better politics could probably live a little longer too and survive much better. Our medicines are already very well advanced and able to stave off most illnesses that the majority are ever likely to encounter.

The only survival argument anyone can have is for diseases such as cancer. But whats wrong with a little natural selection to keep the human population down? The planet cant sustain the human disease so surely by making everyone live longer and be more healthy we will eventually contribute to the very demise you claim animal experiments will save us from.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 14:27   #76
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
Nor does it do experiments on the local antelope.

People who are for animal experiments often use the argument that it is done for the survival of the human species, as demonstrated in this thread.

We dont need to eat animals in order to survive, we can eat fruit, vegetables and nuts. These days we dont need animal hide for clothing, we can manufacture materials very well. We already live twice as long as our ancestors, and through better politics could probably live a little longer too and survive much better.
I agree with you so far, but then there are alot of things we don't need to do that disadvantage nature in some way, but we still do them.
Quote:
Our medicines are already very well advanced and able to stave off most illnesses that the majority are ever likely to encounter.
no; with the rapid evolution of diseases we are bound to come up against nasty things.
Quote:
The only survival argument anyone can have is for diseases such as cancer. But whats wrong with a little natural selection to keep the human population down?
because people value human life more than they value animal life, and natural selection is all well and good until you are the one getting weeded out. (it's worth adding here that most of these things aren't even selective traits anyway. many of the diseases that we are attempting to cure are those which manifest themselves after the person can no longer breed anyway, and so their presence in the population will remain untouched whether they do or do not die of said affliction)
Quote:
The planet cant sustain the human disease so surely by making everyone live longer and be more healthy we will eventually contribute to the very demise you claim animal experiments will save us from.
not nescessarily. the main problem is more related to massive population growth in poor countries with low life expectancies, which is an entirely independent problem from those that are being tackled with animal testing. this population growth will doubtlessly be slowed with overall economic improvement of the world, which is pretty much inevitable, barring another world war or something.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 15:31   #77
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Re: vile despicable people

People simply can't consider all animals as equals IMO because of our human emotions and ability to rationalise, if anyone had a choice of a loved one dying or an animal, I don't hold much hope for the animals chances and with most people I expect this to extend to humans taking priority over animals. We even give some animals priority over others, how many activists have targeted shows like 'I'm A Celebrity' because some clumsy post fame oaf tramples over a load of cockroaches in the name of entertainment? If it were fluffy bunnys they were biting the heads off I'm sure there would be more of a fuss so all this all animals/creatures are equal argument does not wash with me.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 15:32   #78
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Re: vile despicable people

To settle the animals don't feel Pain Argument:

It is amazing how allegedly intelligent people can so leave logic behind to create the argument:

"animals may not feel pain because my computer generated character reacts to computer generated violence and it is silly to say it feels pain"

let's take this step by step shall we. cause and effect

When a computer generated character reacts to computer generated violence we are not witnessing the interaction of two sepparate entities. we are watching computer code play out, much like the action/dialogue in a play. do you see? the effect (the computer generated image 'running away' or grimmacing) is caused by computer code.

Now we know that mamalian life forms all have a central nervous system which is conected to it's muscle tissue and skin by a series of nerve pathways. When a mammal reacts to violence the effect (the violent reaction or the running away) is caused by electrical impulses traveling up the nerve path ways and being processed by the central nervous system. now in our species we call this process pain. the process is exactly the same in all mammalian life forms so arguing it should be called 'pleasure in dogs or called 'watermellon' in cats is equally absurd.

so in summary: the same effect witnessed in computer generated imagery has different causes in different situations. in terms of mammals the cause is pain

as a final example, when a fight is staged in a play or film you will witness the same effect (the wincing, the running away, even the bruises etc) but here the cause is not pain. the cause is weeks of rehearsal, the script, the director and the make up.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 15:40   #79
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
While you may consider yourself worth more than an animal your real worth is how others value
you. I value all life as equal, I would no sooner want to harm your life than I would even a mouse. And I believe that is the fundamental difference between animal rights activists and the rest .
quite. i have read your beliefs and while i disagree with them, i would point out that they are logically coherent, the common ground we have is clearly in the above.

these 'activists' deliberately used violence, fear and intimidation against human beings. we call systematic use of violence, fear and intimmidation against people torture.

they tortured humans. I see that as worse. You see that as just as bad.

We both agree it was wrong.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 16:02   #80
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
"animals may not feel pain because my computer generated character reacts to computer generated violence and it is silly to say it feels pain"
It's much better to respond to people directly rather than indirect quotes. However, your argument is very true and is exactly why people are wrong to merely rely on the effects without examining the causes (as Phang did in his earlier post).

btw : I would say animals do feel pain as I've done here, here & here.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 16:38   #81
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Re: vile despicable people

Well these are the people who threatened Linda McCartney for using cancer drugs that were developed in part from animal testing.
Digging up the mother in law of a guinea pig farmer was clearly the next step along.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 17:24   #82
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It is amazing how allegedly intelligent people can so leave logic behind to create the argument
Actually, the one making a logical fallacy in argumentation is you.

Your claim is that an identical physical reaction to a certain stimulus automatically triggers an identical mental reaction, which is not the case. There are many examples to be mentioned, such as people not reacting the same to eating and tasting a certain type of food, masochists deriving actual pleasure from the sensation of pain, but one of the most telling may simply be the mirror.

If you put humans and certain primates in front of a mirror, they will see their mirror image and realise that it is themselves they are looking at. If they, for example, have a stain on their head and see this in the mirror, they will attempt to wipe it off their own head, not that of the image they are seeing. Various other animals will go through the exact same physical characteristics of seeing their own image reflected in the mirror, but lacking self-consciousness, they will think that it is another animal they are seeing, and react to it accordingly.

A similar account could be made for the sensation of pain, and this is where the analogy with virtual characters comes in. Do animals have awareness, do they realise that they are suffering pain, or do they simply react instinctively to a "pre-programmed code" which tells them what to do when their nervous system triggers?

And where lies the border? A cat, a dog or a primate would much sooner be credited with awareness and the ability to have pain than, say, an ant, a spider or a worm. How about guinea pigs? Or rats? And conversely, if certain animals were credited with the ability to experience pain, is this limited to physical pain, or can they suffer from mental anguish as well? And could they also experience happiness? Joy? Love?

A cut and dry "animals have a nervous system, so they can experience pain" may be simplifying the matter at hand too much.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 17:39   #83
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Your claim is that an identical physical reaction to a certain stimulus automatically triggers an identical mental reaction,
with the greatest of respect that wasn't what i said.
pain is not a mental reaction it is a physical process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
There are many examples to be mentioned, such as people not reacting the same to eating and tasting a certain type of food, masochists deriving actual pleasure from the sensation of pain, but one of the most telling may simply be the mirror.
these are mental reactions. all mammals differ even within their own species. there may very well be masochist dogs and rabbits wich love the smell of ice cream but these variations do not invalidate the general truth that the process, what we call pain, occurs in them all


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Do animals have awareness, do they realise that they are suffering pain, or do they simply react instinctively to a "pre-programmed code" which tells them what to do when their nervous system triggers?
the question of being self aware is irrelevant.
you do not need to be self aware to undergo the process of pain.

when you are asleep and you are stung by a bee you will undergo the process of pain just as much as if you are awake and watching the bee sting you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
And where lies the border?
i drew one quite clearly at mammals.

i did this because i don't know enough about the biology of non mammalian life.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 17:58   #84
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
Nor does it do experiments on the local antelope.

People who are for animal experiments often use the argument that it is done for the survival of the human species, as demonstrated in this thread.

We dont need to eat animals in order to survive, we can eat fruit, vegetables and nuts. These days we dont need animal hide for clothing, we can manufacture materials very well.
We also don't need to have sex with each other any more. It is quite possible to impregnate someone without actual intercourse, thanks to advancements in science. And with all these nasty STIs going about, why haven't we stopped already?!

Just because we don't "need" to do something, doesn't mean that we "shouldn't". Yes, we can eat fruit vegetables and nuts but - to me - that doesn't sound like an appealing diet. Just like not having sex for the rest of my life doesn't sound all that fun.

Quote:
We already live twice as long as our ancestors, and through better politics could probably live a little longer too and survive much better. Our medicines are already very well advanced and able to stave off most illnesses that the majority are ever likely to encounter.
What about these new superbugs? MRSA. Viruses that have adapted to current medical knowledge and that we're currently unable to fight effectively.

Quote:
The only survival argument anyone can have is for diseases such as cancer. But whats wrong with a little natural selection to keep the human population down? The planet cant sustain the human disease so surely by making everyone live longer and be more healthy we will eventually contribute to the very demise you claim animal experiments will save us from.
First of all, cancer is not natural selection. Natural selection is where nature picks off the weakest of a species, so that the species evolves to be stronger. Cancer is, as far as I'm aware, relatively indiscriminate and those effected by it certainly aren't making the species stronger.

The whole "the planet can't cope with more humans" thing is a very valid discussion, but not one for this thread. You wouldn't say "I realise you can cure my sister, but perhaps we should let her die as I've got more than enough siblings and we struggle to get by as it is." You save your sister, and deal with the rest as it comes. Why shouldn't we let the medical experts try to advance our medical knowledge, and let the government experts deal with the overpopulation issue?

But overall, it goes back to the "nature" argument. If we don't continue to advance ourselves, make ourselves stronger, nature will bring up new bugs and viruses to slowly kill us off. Now that's true natural selection.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 18:45   #85
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
pain is not a mental reaction it is a physical process.

[...]

when you are asleep and you are stung by a bee you will undergo the process of pain just as much as if you are awake and watching the bee sting you.
This is the point on which we disagree then
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 19:38   #86
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Re: vile despicable people

Heh. I think the people who refuse to 'murder' carrots are funnier.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 20:26   #87
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Re: vile despicable people

Animals are for eating etc!
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 20:47   #88
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
why oh why do you keep relating this to the nazis?
jews=pigs?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 20:57   #89
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Re: vile despicable people

Testing cosmetics on animals is a good idea because a bit of blusher and mascara will boost the animals confidence. Maybe one day they will start standing up for their own ****ing rights.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 06:39   #90
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Re: vile despicable people

Anyone who thinks threatening to kill humans, becasue they breed guinea pigs,can go to hell. Anyone who thinks that causing mental distress to humans, because they breed guinea pigs, can go to hell. Ate pig meat for dinner, yummy. Wore my leather shoes all day, comfy. Looked at my lambs suede coat hanging in the closet, spiffy. Not worrying about it, priceless.
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Last edited by dda; 25 Aug 2005 at 06:44. Reason: why do you care?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:29   #91
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Testing cosmetics on animals is a good idea because a bit of blusher and mascara will boost the animals confidence. Maybe one day they will start standing up for their own ****ing rights.
Why do we need to when there are so many minging women who could do with the help, Miss Joy?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 13:24   #92
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Re: vile despicable people

We have to make sure the minging women don't become even more hideous looking by applying makeup or anti cellulite cream or tit firming cream that brings them out in an allergic reaction and deforms them even more.

Clearly.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 13:54   #93
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
tit firming cream
I want to live in a world where that's the label on the jar.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 14:03   #94
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
I want to live in a world where that's the label on the jar.
it is but a cheap biro away
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 16:42   #95
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Re: vile despicable people

I'm for survival, and for natural order or whatever. That means, in my logic, that it's okay to cut down a tree for firewood when you're freezing, or to kill a animal for food. Deforesting for profit or torturing animals for profit does not really fit into my view on survival. It's much worse for our "medical survival" or whatever that the rainforest is clogged down, but where does the proanimaltesting people talk about that? Medical testing on animals is NOT required for the survival of our species, and while I'm not 100% that animals feel pain (can i be that you guys/girls do?), the fact that they might makes this bad.

I agree completely with the tactics of the militants, as I do support the IRA, the ETA and the AFA. Using violence to achieve a goal, when it's the only right thing in your mind, is respectworthy. Of course, I don't very much like nazies, and when they use violence, I get pissed. However, instead of sitting somewhere talking about how bad it is, or going in a picket several miles from where the nazies are, I would take the fight to them and stop them. If you think something is right, why not try to stop it instead of crying about it? Even if the nazies are scum and should be chased off our streets, I much more respect them if they stay and fight then if they run. It shows either conviction or stupidity.

I eat meat. I don't use shampoo that's been animal tested. I use drugs that (probably) have been animal tested. If im drunk and see a furcoat, I just might try to have a little fun.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 01:06   #96
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Re: vile despicable people

Then everyone who thinks that animal rights individual are demented should rise up in arms and kill all of the ****ers? Yes thinking you are right about something should give you the right to kill, maim and terrorize, clearly! To hell with civilization. If my friends and I think it is right then slaughter those who oppose on every subject.

At least I think you would have solved over population.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 06:57   #97
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Re: vile despicable people

Those activists are worse than the people who breed the animals. 'We don't agree so we're going to pester, bother, terrorize and be a nuisance to those people till they stop! How mature
I sincerely support the family and hope those activists will just grow up.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 06:59   #98
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Re: vile despicable people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
I'm for survival, and for natural order or whatever. That means, in my logic, that it's okay to cut down a tree for firewood when you're freezing, or to kill a animal for food. Deforesting for profit or torturing animals for profit does not really fit into my view on survival. It's much worse for our "medical survival" or whatever that the rainforest is clogged down, but where does the proanimaltesting people talk about that? Medical testing on animals is NOT required for the survival of our species, and while I'm not 100% that animals feel pain (can i be that you guys/girls do?), the fact that they might makes this bad.
Thanks to those test animals I'm willing to bet millions of human lives have been saved.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 14:56   #99
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Re: vile despicable people

As someone with a genetic condition which is being researched using animal testing, I would like to say that the animal-rights protesters are hypocrites of the highest order. Not only is there the fact that they almost-certainly use animal tested products/eat meat/wear leather but they probably owe their lives, if not existence to animal testing. Vaccines for human diseases such as:

Anthrax
Chicken pox
Cholera
Diphtheria
German measles (rubella)
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Influenza
Measles
Mumps
Pneumococcal pneumonia
Poliomyelitis
Rabies
Scarlet fever
Smallpox
Tetanus
Tuberculosis
Typhoid
Typhus
Whooping cough
Yellow fever

Have been developed using animal testing, not to mention antibiotics, antiseptics and anaesthetics. There are also more than 50 developed for animals.. Claiming testing is wrong under any conditions, is simply poisoning the well after you’ve had a drink.

The majority of animals used for testing are mice or creatures of an even lower order.
My life is worth more than theirs, it’s as simple as that.

Here is a piece titled ‘No more animal testing’ by Jeffery Scott. WARNING! It’s graphic but self-explanatory.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 17:15   #100
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Re: vile despicable people

posting to agree with cyrax, well written
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