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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 18:24   #51
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Why is the statement that every nation has the right to develop nuclear weapons anti-american? The United States, despite its failings, is a far far better nation in terms of protecting the individual and allowing dissent than Iran. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly mad. But i don't see why Iran shouldn't be allowed to develop whatever it damned well pleases.
Because they say otherwise and thus are clearly mad
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 18:33   #52
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

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Originally Posted by Alessio
Because they say otherwise and thus are clearly mad
Is that meant to belittle my comment or those before me?
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 18:39   #53
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

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Originally Posted by Nusselt
Is that meant to belittle my comment or those before me?
Its open to interpretation
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 18:50   #54
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Iran isn't playing the US's and UK's ball game. So they want to invade. They just need to convince their nations this. Telling the UK population that the Iranians are killing our boys is a good start in the propaganda game.

The only thing that makes me doubt we're going to war is logistics. The US and UK armies are already overstretched, I think anyway.

The nuclear proliferation argument may very well work. But I don't support it. The US and UK both have nuclear weapons, and now they're telling the Iranians they can't have any. Hypocrisy. I don't hear anything about the US and UK decommissioning. But then, of course, we're the world's police. Why does the middle east not like us again? Of course, I don't want anyone to have nuclear weapons, but the hypocrisy is a bit too much. But then the west have always been meddling in the middle east's affairs, messing things up, then blaming them when things go wrong.
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 19:09   #55
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yeah, but people like you opposed it due to generic anti-americanism rather than because of any specifics unique to that particular war, as is evidenced by comments like
The WMD and links to Al-Quida was just some weak Casus Belli to gain access to the oil fields.
It's not my fault that you a) belive in people like Bush and Blair b) you have been reading Ayn Rand.
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 19:11   #56
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I wasn't really referring to nuclear weapons or whatever. Personally I see nothing wrong with denying country x the right to have weapons when those who would have control over those weapons is democratically unaccountable for their actions. The point is we shouldn't judge what countries require help based on who supports helping and who doesn't but rather whether the country really needs help. The fact that we've all been hypocritical and supported x doing y doesn't mean we have to automatically condone all instances of y in future. Just admit we were wrong and we'll try not to let it happen again.
That argument is all fine and dandy. But then again, why are you not crying out over Pakistans nuclear weapons. It's not like General Mushraf is democraticly elected is he?
Hypocrisy isnt considered to be a great threat, you know.
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 19:17   #57
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
That argument is all fine and dandy. But then again, why are you not crying out over Pakistans nuclear weapons. It's not like General Mushraf is democraticly elected is he?
Hypocrisy isnt considered to be a great threat, you know.
Well excuse me for not going completely off-topic mid thread and outlining my views on everything in world history.




Oh and don't worry I'm opposed to everyone except the UN having nuclear weapons.






Which considering the UN isn't democratically accountable is pretty funny when you think about it.





Also generally the idea is that democratically unaccountable leaders will be less likely to decide to use nuclear weapons alessio. However seeing as the only leader to ever use nuclear weapons was democratically accountable the idea is pretty much statistically buggered. One should note the obvious importance of relative difference in circumstances though. Also I think I argued on these forums that if anything leaders in totalitarian politically violently machiavellian are less likely to use nuclear weapons. Not that I think using nuclear weapons is a necessarily bad thing like some do mind, I'm sure if and when we're invaded by those guys from war of worlds or independence day our nuclear weapons are going to come in handy.
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 19:19   #58
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Oh and don't worry I'm opposed to everyone except the UN having nuclear weapons.
.
are you serious?
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 19:24   #59
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

iranians like to pretend they're persian when they're just dirty dirty arabs
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 19:34   #60
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
are you serious?
Not the UN as it is in any way shape or form at the minute. I'd support some sort of democratically accountable constitutionally libertarian world organisation having sole access to nuclear weapons though.


PS Iranians are aryan duncan
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 20:52   #61
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
stuff
Now your producing some good logic here
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 22:11   #62
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
Every sane person knew from the start that they wouldn't find any WMD's
This just isn't true. Before the invasion on this forum Vermillion (for instance, not picking on him aside from the fact he's more eloquent than most) said he supported the war because Saddam (and his WMD's) were "too much of a threat". Tacticus (I seem to recall) sneering at the idea of allowing the UN Weapon Inspectors to continue looking.

In fact, I don't recall anyone seriously suggesting that Iraq would have *NO* WMDs. I opposed the war irrespective of Iraq having WMDs or otherwise, but I was fairly convinced they would find *something* (albeit something on a dramatically smaller than was being implied).

I think you are underestimating how powerful the pre-invasion propaganda machine was in propogating the Iraq has WMD meme.
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Unread 19 Oct 2005, 09:24   #63
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Not the UN as it is in any way shape or form at the minute. I'd support some sort of democratically accountable constitutionally libertarian world organisation having sole access to nuclear weapons though.


PS Iranians are aryan duncan
It would certainely give a whole new meaning to the term "UN Sanctions"
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Unread 19 Oct 2005, 13:29   #64
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Exclamation Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

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Originally Posted by acropolis
the problem is that in this case 'liberal' and 'democracy' are mutually exclusive; if you let the people vote on the issue they would certainly vote in favor of executing fags.
Not really. Iran's democratic element is severely constrained by the Islamic fundamentalism underpinning the state itself. The Iranian regime has shown itself utterly intolerant of viewpoints which it deems to be 'irreligious.' Whatever Iran's population thinks is irrelevant when you consider that the view of the people takes second fiddle to the view of the clerics; it does not call itself an Islamic republic for nothing. Any US-sponsored Iranian government, after a hypothetical invasion, would be rid of this theocratic element and would be better for it.

You seem to be also a little confused as to what 'liberal democratic' actually means. Liberal democracy is based around a democratic system with adequate safeguards built in to protect minorities, the rule of law, etc, despite whatever the people think. It is not to be equated with mob rule.

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Unread 19 Oct 2005, 13:37   #65
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Question Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In fact, I don't recall anyone seriously suggesting that Iraq would have *NO* WMDs.
Apart from the weapons inspectors themselves, you mean?
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Unread 19 Oct 2005, 13:59   #66
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Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Apart from the weapons inspectors themselves, you mean?
Well I more meant in popular discourse as in places on this forum and such.
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Unread 19 Oct 2005, 14:10   #67
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Exclamation Re: Are we going to war with Iran?

Ah.
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