Planetarion Forums - GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

JonnyBGood · 14 Oct 2005, 17:51

It's like looking into the future!

KoeN · 14 Oct 2005, 19:06

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yahwe again.

otherwise i'd have given him my first pos rep ever.

Duncan · 14 Oct 2005, 19:07

Quote:

P: Precisely Mrs SS you send in the tickets so surely you must have known that problems would be caused?
SS: Yes I did... but I
P: And any confusion that caused would result in the company paying for all your private bus journeys wouldn't it?
SS: Well Yes

Why would there be confusion when someone can easily check her attended shifts against the number of tickets given in? If this ticket punching system can be used to show what day/time it got punched, things would be made crystal clear.

Quote:

P: Look at these tickets Mrs SS! It's not just one time that you made this mistake is it Mrs SS? Look at this ticket dated XXXXXX and this one dated XXXXXX and this one and this one! Are they all mistakes?
SS: Yes!
P: Mrs SS the truth of this matter is that like the employee who steals pens from the stationary cupboard you knew what you were doing and you thought it was such a small offence that no one would notice didn't you?

How have you proven they're not mistakes exactly? Things would look suspicious if she didn't work there very long and the amount of tickets used for private travel was high. But even then, surely you need more then conjecture to prove that she isn't just a dumbass.

dda · 15 Oct 2005, 00:13

Do not be a SilverSchmuck. YOU did not get fired. YOU did not resign. She is not your property, so YOU haven't been wronged. If she is old enough to make the decision to be your girlfriend, then she is old enough to make her own decisions in matters like this. Making her feel as if she is inadequate for not being more assertive will do nothing to improve her situation.

I know that you are only upset out of concern for her but, if you are truely concerned for her, you will respect her desires in this matter.

Nusselt · 16 Oct 2005, 00:28

Hey i came to this thread from tomkat's POTW (it served a purpose! MM, you you...person who can't get that other person to love you back), let it go SS. I agree with Yahwe, though as usual it would help if he'd posted the very good responce on this page as his first reply.

Its probably a combination of various things that actually got her fired despite any shenanigans. A person i know is also an area manager who pretty much used the same tactic to get rid of a worker who was giving attitude. Its so much easier than a verbal and written warning first*. She probably pissed off the AM who then went through everything the company had on your gf. It was a bunch of bus tickets, noone would have been bothered enough otherwise. The ringing the police bit would have cracked me up tho, PC plod and his CID friends really wouldn't have given a **** if 20 euro (lets say) had gone missing. All it would have done is blacklist her name in the surrounding stores.

As dda says, you're being a bit of an arse of a bf badgering her into becoming more 'assertive'. Just support her decision give her a cuddle and help her find a new job. I know of one instance where quite major fraud was commited, around £9K was stolen by an assistant at an opticians a few years back, the company did call in the police but all they did was help negotiate an agreement where it was paid back and the person never came back etc. Kicking a fuss won't do anything, she won't get her job back ,she won't win any damages, she won't be able to get any other jobs in the area, she'll be depressed and more of an introvert.

There was almost certainly more involved in all this behind the scenes than a ****ing bus ticket.

stop being an arse and support her decision

* incidently the 'best' story ive ever heard of someone being fired on the spot came from a guy i worked with, he was temping at a firm in late '97 when a major fuss kicked up, an accountant was immediately escorted off the premises, the police were called, the MD turned up with all the senior staff etc...it turned out that norty mr accountant had been using the new internet connection the company had, to download child pornography!!! the funniest bit was that everytime anyone went in this guys office, apparently they used to find him absolutely sweating his arse off!!!

Nusselt · 16 Oct 2005, 00:32

oh and speaking of travel reembursement, i told you awhile back the inland revenue was auditing me. The **** faced mother ****ing shit for brains bastards have asked me to list all the mileage ive travelled. They think they're dealing with someone who isn't anal enough to keep these kinds of records. They are mistaken damn their eyes!!!! I've listed everything time/places/dates/recepits EVERYTHING for years. Ill type it all up, ****ing bean counting dickheads trying to keep the man down.

Knight Theamion · 16 Oct 2005, 02:24

Reading this thread I suddenly realize how SilverSmoke made her his GF, he just talked her into it.

It seems to me that you are more worried and involved in this whole matter then she is. Are you sure you are not pissed of because of things happened to you instead of her?

Well dr. Freud? Well?

By the way, nice sofa you have here.

SilverSmoke · 17 Oct 2005, 08:16

I decided to leave her be on this subject but the moment I started to drop the subject she decided already to go on with it, with the support of her father..

Oh well

Duncan · 17 Oct 2005, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nusselt

I agree with Yahwe, though as usual it would help if he'd posted the very good responce on this page as his first reply.

so you agree with yahwe... then go on to describe how the management team probably just used the situation to threaten her into quitting for unrelated matters, because they had no legal standing to fire her.

from the information provided, a) they don't have any proof of fraud, as there's no intent b) all she deserved for that mistake was a warning. (like a cashier who's missing xx amount from their till without evidence of theft)

Quote:

It was a bunch of bus tickets, noone would have been bothered enough otherwise.

any real business will contact the police when one of their employees is cleary stealing from them, even smaller amounts. this helps them legally get rid of a dishonest employee and will set an example to the rest of the troops. in this situation, they knew they didn't have enough proof and probably had other motivating factors to get rid of her.

you can also use this situation to see why it's good policy to get all alleged crimes on record.

Quote:

stop being an arse and support her decision

just to let you know, you're being an arse by telling him how to live his life when all you have to go on is barebone information from a thrid party.

Duncan · 17 Oct 2005, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSmoke

She has a contract of indefinite term, as it's called in Holland sort of.

We've been contacting some bodies and got adviced to reject the previous resignation with the reason she has been intimidated. I do recall what Yahwe said that she is lucky she hasn't been proscecuted but over here it seems different according to people in the know of Dutch laws in this field.

Every person/body we contacted said the same. This isn't fraud, making a mistake isn't fraud. They didn't gave her the option of defending/explaining herself. At the moment she's on her way to a legal advice desk to write a letter of objection towards her employee in where she states to be available for labour again.

Seriously, **** anything yahwe has to say about the law. First and foremost, he's probably a law clerk or some shit like that. Second, I wouldn't trust anything he has to say on the subject as he isn't here to give legal advice, but to insult and belittle people for his personal enjoyment.

all the legal bodies telling you the same thing is good. her Dutch legal counsil will let her know if she has a worthwhile case.

acropolis · 17 Oct 2005, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

any real business will contact the police when one of their employees is cleary stealing from them, even smaller amounts. this helps them legally get rid of a dishonest employee and will set an example to the rest of the troops. in this situation, they knew they didn't have enough proof and probably had other motivating factors to get rid of her.

isn't it possible that the company wanted to be parted from an employee that was defrauding them without ruining the life of someone who wasn't exactly an axe murderer?

Marilyn Manson · 17 Oct 2005, 16:54

SilverSmoke's father didn't moan and whinge when he was out of work, he got on his rickshaw and looked for work!

Duncan · 17 Oct 2005, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by acropolis

isn't it possible that the company wanted to be parted from an employee that was defrauding them without ruining the life of someone who wasn't exactly an axe murderer?

calling the police to get a report doesn't ruin her life. going through the court process for 20-40 bucks and getting convicted of fraud is the thing that ****s you up. if they don't want to waste money and be mean, they can simply drop the charges or tell her to pay back the money and never come back. that way she gets a break and the company protects itself to a higher degree.

Yahwe · 17 Oct 2005, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

if they don't want to waste money and be mean, they can simply drop the charges or tell her to pay back the money and never come back.

errrr...

this is exactly what the company did in this case.

oh and btw i'm a legal 'counsil' as you might put it ...

Duncan · 17 Oct 2005, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

errrr...

this is exactly what the company did in this case.

oh and btw i'm a legal 'counsil' as you might put it ...

what? they never contacted the authorities to get a much needed police report. that's what any smart company would do if they caught an employee stealing from them red handed. they can drop charges and make deals afterwards according to the circumstances.

your problem is that you assume she's guilty. she wasn't caught red handed. the fact of the matter is, there isn't sufficient evidence to convict her of fraud. it's very possible she just made a mistake, so she is definately not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.. (basing that on the information SS has given). with that in mind, the company had no right to force her resignation under threats.

Yahwe · 17 Oct 2005, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

your problem is that you assume she's guilty. she wasn't caught red handed. the fact of the matter is, there isn't sufficient evidence to convict her of fraud. it's very possible she just made a mistake, so she is definately not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.. (basing that on the information SS has given). with that in mind, the company had no right to force her resignation under threats.

no.

ALLOW ME TO TELL YOU WHAT I AM ASSUMING.

I have, with the knowledge at my disposal and the experiance that I have, concluded the following:

1) There is a case for her to be prosecuted for fraud.
2) No one can ever say for certain how a case would go (EDIT: i mean in terms of GUILTY or NOT GUILTY, just in case you don't understand)
3) It is my opinion that the evidence against her is so strong that it is not in her interest to risk being prosecuted for fraud.
4) It is incredibly unlikely that she would win at an employment tribunal. This is because the burden of evidence shifts to 'a balance of probabilities' as opposed to a criminal trial where it is 'beyond reasonable doubt.
5) Employment law is a part of the law which nation states cede to the European Union. Holland is a member of the EU. My experience of EU directives as applied in British courts is likely to be accurate.
6) Accordingly the company did not act out of line.
7) Pursuing her dismissal through the courts will cost her several hundred Pounds.
8) Even IF she were to win at an employment tribunal she would win at most a few hundred pounds.

Accordingly I have consistently advised that she 'let's this go'.

This is my profesional judgement for the reasons outlined above.

Duncan · 18 Oct 2005, 18:00

Well I agree that since the law hardly serves poor people, she'll probably waste time and money trying to win a case against the company. Really I dont know much about employment law, so not sure if the company even did anything illegal. If it were me, I'd let it go and get a new shit job.

Quote:

3) It is my opinion that the evidence against her is so strong that it is not in her interest to risk being prosecuted for fraud.

Your imaginary cross-examination didn't prove intent. How can you show handing in a personal bus ticket which has a clear date and time, which was handed in with a pile of other tickets to be a deliberate act of trickery? Handing it in doesn't mean she was trying to confuse anyone, how can she confuse or make problems when she's handing in the tickets directly to her employer for inspection? Without a confession, witness, tampered bus tickets or other evidence, no sane individual would find her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It's very reasonable to think she just made a mistake.

Steve is given a work time table to fill in their hours worked for a certain time period. They have to calculate how much they should be payed. Steve fills in one of the boxes wrong and the total is off by x amount. After handing it in to their employer the company goes over it and becomes aware of the Steve's error. Steve claims to have screwed up the math. Poor Stevey should be worried about being convicted of fraud?

Yahwe · 18 Oct 2005, 18:07

I thank you for your professional opinion.

Having considered it, I'm afraid that I am going to stick with my own professional opinion.

Duncan · 18 Oct 2005, 18:13

oh i'm not a professional, my only experience with the law is while i'm sitting at the defendent's table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSmoke

We've been contacting some bodies and got adviced to reject the previous resignation with the reason she has been intimidated. I do recall what Yahwe said that she is lucky she hasn't been proscecuted but over here it seems different according to people in the know of Dutch laws in this field.

Every person/body we contacted said the same. This isn't fraud, making a mistake isn't fraud. They didn't gave her the option of defending/explaining herself. At the moment she's on her way to a legal advice desk to write a letter of objection towards her employee in where she states to be available for labour again.

doesn't seem like other professionals agree with you though.

Demon Dave · 18 Oct 2005, 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

oh i'm not a professional, my only experience with the law is while i'm sitting at the defendent's table.

Funniest Post EVER

SilverSmoke · 19 Oct 2005, 23:44

Hah Yahwe, I guess you were wrong here.

Well sort of. My gf Lawyer wrote a letter to the firm she was working at declaring that gf withdraws her resignation and threatening them with legal actions. There will be no courtcase. From the headoffice of this company they admitted they didn't treat the situation very well and there will be some agreement which will probably be something in the lines of a couple of months of 'free' salary for compensation.

It's not really clear for now what exactly will be agreed but they already said that they were on the wrong end and will make sure both parties will be happy.

\o/

Tomkat · 19 Oct 2005, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSmoke

Hah Yahwe, I guess you were wrong here.

But he's spent all those hours watching Judge Judy!

How can he be wrong?!

Yahwe · 20 Oct 2005, 00:31

well even bluffing has value sometimes.

Duncan · 20 Oct 2005, 00:40

stop what you're doing immediately. the company really has a bullet proof case of fraud against your girlfriend -- hopefully she hasn't been raped by a gang of black woman by the time of this posting. the company is using a bait and switch legal tactic we lawyers call 'roping the pig v2.3' and by accepting that deal SHE WILL BE ADMITTING TO MULTIPLE ACTS OF FRAUD AND HER LIFE WILL BE RUINED. i wear a white wig and have 'professional barriester OF THE LAW!!' on my business card so you can trust me

Duncan · 20 Oct 2005, 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

well even bluffing has value sometimes.

hahhahahaahha because you can't even admit when you're wrong i'm going to continue

if the council on either side saw strong evidence against her for fraud this deal would have never come to pass

Paisley · 20 Oct 2005, 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

stop what you're doing immediately. the company really has a bullet proof case of fraud against your girlfriend -- hopefully she hasn't been raped by a gang of black woman by the time of this posting. the company is using a bait and switch legal tactic we lawyers call 'roping the pig v2.3' and by accepting that deal SHE WILL BE ADMITTING TO MULTIPLE ACTS OF FRAUD AND HER LIFE WILL BE RUINED. i wear a white wig and have 'professional barriester OF THE LAW!!' on my business card so you can trust me

This might seem a daft question but wouldn't the lawyer representing SS's GF be aware of this tactic?

acropolis · 20 Oct 2005, 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSmoke

Hah Yahwe, I guess you were wrong here.

Well sort of. My gf Lawyer wrote a letter to the firm she was working at declaring that gf withdraws her resignation and threatening them with legal actions. There will be no courtcase. From the headoffice of this company they admitted they didn't treat the situation very well and there will be some agreement which will probably be something in the lines of a couple of months of 'free' salary for compensation.

It's not really clear for now what exactly will be agreed but they already said that they were on the wrong end and will make sure both parties will be happy.

\o/

are you paying this lawyer to tell you that paying this lawyer is a good idea?

SilverSmoke · 20 Oct 2005, 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by acropolis

are you paying this lawyer to tell you that paying this lawyer is a good idea?

As far I know his little effort is for free as a part in some sort of insurance thing of her father.

Tomkat · 20 Oct 2005, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan

signature

That is a pretty stupid neg-rep.

I'm sure yahwe can fight his own battles

KoeN · 20 Oct 2005, 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

well even bluffing has value sometimes.

sometimes. not now.

you and knowledge of law, haha.

All Systems Go · 20 Oct 2005, 17:35

this thread is too long and after page one I imagine that the rest is just a slanging match, a theory which seems to be supported by a quick glance at this page.

So here is my question:

How much did she try to defraud the company of?

SilverSmoke · 20 Oct 2005, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go

fraud

We're speaking about a massive amount of 17 busstrip spaces, which means about 4 bus trips she tried to declarate. I estimate this goes in the range of about 12 - 16 euro from a total amount of a 220 euro she received.

Don't know if you read it, but she'll be getting a financial compensation because of this pathetic situation.

sigrid · 20 Oct 2005, 19:27

I think YAHWE should stop assuming things as long as he is a complete noob on dutch laws, AND our public transpor system.
And that negrep you got duncan, is prolly done by Yahwe himself:P

JonnyBGood · 20 Oct 2005, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigrid

he is a complete noob

Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu. Please be bird flu.

SilverSmoke · 25 Oct 2005, 12:00

hah

Her former employee offered her a one month of 'free' salary, payment of all of her free days and a neutral reference.

Her lawyer didn't agree and retorded with a salary payment of 3 months, payment of all of her free days and a possitive reference. Those faggots replied within a day and agreed. Also she might have a job this week already, a more decent job at a broker's office.

But we're not finished yet, she'll write a letter to the head office to tell the exact story between her and this pussy ass area manager, I guess they aren't very happy with him.

jupp · 25 Oct 2005, 12:12

Congratz

seems it was worth the effort to contact a lawyer

Paisley · 25 Oct 2005, 17:14

Good to hear, now your GF can move on with little or no regrets

Tomkat · 25 Oct 2005, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupp

Congratz

seems it was worth the effort to contact a lawyer

lucky the lawyer wasn't yahwe!