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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 09:08   #1
Sun_Tzu
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About Alliance Retals

I'd like to issue a warning to all alliances. It seems that the PA-crew in it's excitement to proove they do hunt cheaters down have ushered into a new era. Alliance aproved retals for discretions aganst the alliance, a common practice for many rounds allready, has been found to be farming. It's a sad fact that the alliance politics and the human relations this game thrives on can not be coded into the game and this is just another sign of what will come as the crew try harder and harder to keep alliances in check. Why this comes now I can't say, it's truly rather preculier that something which has been a accepted way for alliances to punish their members for wrong-doings should be targeted in this way. Let's hope the crew changes their minds, otherwise all alliances might be in for a rather interesting brain-stormer about what to do with alliance members out-of-line.

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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 09:10   #2
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thanks,

edit, and actually you seem to have missed out several facts, but lets ignore that shall we

you might wanna consider added the odd space or newline into your writings too, makes them easier to read.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 10:12   #3
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This has been known for a while already.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 10:19   #4
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You mean people actually use retals for other reasons then to give high ranked players free roids??
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 10:22   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by ParraCida
You mean people actually use retals for other reasons then to give high ranked players free roids??
Yes. Fury use them to start wars.









HAH.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 10:27   #6
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Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
Alliance aproved retals for discretions aganst the alliance, a common practice for many rounds allready, has been found to be farming.
That is because it is farming. If you want too retal you do it with force. Not by having someone move his fleet voluntarily.

Just because peope are in an alliance does not mean thay get right to exchange roids. No matter what the reason !!! In alliance politics/strategy this might well be an acceptable practise but I find it disgusting no matter what. If you member break your rules you either chuck them out (and attack them normally mayby) or you withdraw certain rights (defence) to them untill them have redeemed themselves. You could for instance have a member who roided another member be forced to escort the member that lost roids for a few attacks or untill he regained back his losses.

This authorised retal practise has always been a very ugly stain on alliance behaviour in PA that has often been abused in many forms.

hAl
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 10:28   #7
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That they have done parracida. Atleast my gal has done few times due to some bloody guy attacks from work and doesn't come on irc to here that target is in our block and takes loads of roids from him. aka returning roids.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 12:37   #8
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Fury ret ermmm authed retals IS farming fs

so what you on about? you are too lame to kick the offender of alliance and rape him silly and need to farm him..... if you get closed for that GOOD FOR YOU

p.s. no alliance i've been in since r6 or so used 'authed' retals like that....
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 14:37   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by cyphie

p.s. no alliance i've been in since r6 or so used 'authed' retals like that....
Uhm... you were Titans r7 weren't you?
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 16:14   #10
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Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
I'd like to issue a warning to all alliances. It seems that the PA-crew in it's excitement to proove they do hunt cheaters down have ushered into a new era. Alliance aproved retals for discretions aganst the alliance, a common practice for many rounds allready, has been found to be farming. It's a sad fact that the alliance politics and the human relations this game thrives on can not be coded into the game and this is just another sign of what will come as the crew try harder and harder to keep alliances in check. Why this comes now I can't say, it's truly rather preculier that something which has been a accepted way for alliances to punish their members for wrong-doings should be targeted in this way. Let's hope the crew changes their minds, otherwise all alliances might be in for a rather interesting brain-stormer about what to do with alliance members out-of-line.

Sun_Tzu,
Dragon
FAnG
Olmit
It always was seen to be farming. Im not 100% of the difination of farming, but it goes something along the lines of an agreement between the attacker & defender for the purposful benifit of another. Weither its a alliance HC command, or an individual, the end result is the same. Farming.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 16:35   #11
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If 'player A' -HC- attacks 'player B' -peon- for breaking allience rules, and then threatens player B to either be roided or lose allience membership.

Is that farming?

tbh it doesn't look like farming to me. If it was then everyone sending pa mails to their target saying 'run your fleet or i will come back for a 2nd wave!' is a farmer. As it is a deal/agreement to benefit both players.

Last round i also know a player who attacked his target with a roid and kill fleet, and by accident fleetcatched his target. The two then made a deal for the attacker to pull his kill fleet, let the first tick be, and then get 2 ticks of free roids. As the defender was cathaar that happened to. Farming? I don't think so..

Seems pa crew should be worrying more about bots and multi planets than 'Allience Retals'.

Discuss.. :ninja:
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 16:40   #12
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It's farming. If a HC wants cheap roids then let him fight for it like the rest of us.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 16:42   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
It's farming. If a HC wants cheap roids then let him fight for it like the rest of us.
wanting cheap roids isn't bad though. maybe he was just waiting for a member to break the rules so he could roid him easy. KIck him so he has no defence sources left or forbid his allience to defend him. A bad HC then? Yes.. A cheater? no..

just because he got them of an ally doesn't make it farming
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 16:52   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by PureviL
wanting cheap roids isn't bad though. maybe he was just waiting for a member to break the rules so he could roid him easy. KIck him so he has no defence sources left or forbid his allience to defend him. A bad HC then? Yes.. A cheater? no..

just because he got them of an ally doesn't make it farming
using a position of power within an alliance in that way still constitutes farming u can dress it up any way that u like but its still farming
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:00   #15
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Re: Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeus
It always was seen to be farming. Im not 100% of the difination of farming, but it goes something along the lines of an agreement between the attacker & defender for the purposful benifit of another. Weither its a alliance HC command, or an individual, the end result is the same. Farming.

To be honest if that's the definition of farming then retals aren't farming. The whole point is that it's not for the purposeful benefit of the "attacker", it's to the detriment of the "defender". That may seem a very fine and pedantic line I'm dancing upon but to me it's a valid way of running your alliance. If you remove defence or kick the member you are weakening your own alliance. Retals do not weaken the alliance overall but do punish the individual. Perhaps if another method of doing the same was available I'd support getting rid of retals, however under the current circumstances I must disagree.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:05   #16
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Re: Re: Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
To be honest if that's the definition of farming then retals aren't farming. The whole point is that it's not for the purposeful benefit of the "attacker", it's to the detriment of the "defender". That may seem a very fine and pedantic line I'm dancing upon but to me it's a valid way of running your alliance. If you remove defence or kick the member you are weakening your own alliance. Retals do not weaken the alliance overall but do punish the individual. Perhaps if another method of doing the same was available I'd support getting rid of retals, however under the current circumstances I must disagree.
My point worded in normal english, thank you
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:07   #17
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1 planet loses, 1 benefits, that's always the case with farming.

It doesn't matter if it's the planet of a friend, your main multi-planet, a retaller, your HC or your alliance's top planet that gets the roids. It's cheating.

Farming are only used as a means of retal because:
1. it can benefit a retaller/HC/alliance top player;
2. it's non-destructive on a large scale.

#1 is the reason why it's illegal.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:09   #18
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one planet loses one benefits..

Call my clueless Gerbie but that happens in every attack

So if a HC 'ATTACKS' one of his own members for breaking the allience rules. And then threatens to kick them from the allience if they get defence. How in any way is this farming? this is a normal player, who isn't donating his roids away, who doesn't want to lose them. But prefers to stay in his allience then to keep them..

-edit-

then every player who runs away instead of fighting is a farm to :\
he did not get defence for himself because he knew there would be hell to pay for if he did. he did not agree to give his roids away..

I really dont see how retals like this are farming
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
1 planet loses, 1 benefits, that's always the case with farming.

It doesn't matter if it's the planet of a friend, your main multi-planet, a retaller, your HC or your alliance's top planet that gets the roids. It's cheating.

Farming are only used as a means of retal because:
1. it can benefit a retaller/HC/alliance top player;
2. it's non-destructive on a large scale.

#1 is the reason why it's illegal.
I believe the point of it is to punish the person who has broken alliance rules rather than benefit the enforcer, without damaging the alliance. Perhaps if a system was introduced which shared the roids out equally among all members in the alliance would you still then be opposed to it?
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:22   #20
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I think he is opposed to it by default, not by good reasoning :\
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:27   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by PureviL
one planet loses one benefits..

Call my clueless Gerbie but that happens in every attack

So if a HC 'ATTACKS' one of his own members for breaking the allience rules. And then threatens to kick them from the allience if they get defence. How in any way is this farming? this is a normal player, who isn't donating his roids away, who doesn't want to lose them. But prefers to stay in his allience then to keep them..

-edit-

then every player who runs away instead of fighting is a farm to :\
he did not get defence for himself because he knew there would be hell to pay for if he did. he did not agree to give his roids away..

I really dont see how retals like this are farming
and you believe in the fairy godmother too? this is round 9.5 pa... not n00bie round 2 or 3... authed retals is farming. and we all know it.

if you, as HC, wanna punish someone, you should kick him from the alliance and never let him back in and then roid him if you want.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:32   #22
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the retal system is corrupt as fk, so to classify retals as farming is of benefit to protect smaller players anyway.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:42   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I believe the point of it is to punish the person who has broken alliance rules rather than benefit the enforcer, without damaging the alliance. Perhaps if a system was introduced which shared the roids out equally among all members in the alliance would you still then be opposed to it?
Yes as people/roidfarms can sacrifice themselves for their alliance. I had members quitting this round because of vacation. If I could retal instead of have them abandon their account then that would be unfair to other alliances.

I might accept it if the roids were 'destroyed' but there is already something like that with ships: attack him and kill his ships (you then can take the roids along the way).

Not giving defence to a member during a retal is ofc allowed. Forcing a player not to get def, well I wouldn't accept it as a member.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 17:50   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
Yes as people/roidfarms can sacrifice themselves for their alliance. I had members quitting this round because of vacation. If I could retal instead of have them abandon their account then that would be unfair to other alliances.

I might accept it if the roids were 'destroyed' but there is already something like that with ships: attack him and kill his ships (you then can take the roids along the way).

Not giving defence to a member during a retal is ofc allowed. Forcing a player not to get def, well I wouldn't accept it as a member.
There's a difference between sacrificing your account/quitting PA and breaking alliance rules. I'd imagine the fine line would be far easier to see under the proposed alliance system in r10. If you destroy his roids you're weakening the alliance as well as punishing the player in question. Should all alliances be forced to weaken themselves every time a member breaks discipline? Your last point seems a little semantic. The difference between not giving defence and forcing a player not to get defence seems almost nonsensical to me. Everyone can try to get defence but I imagine the point is that if you get defence you get kicked from the alliance.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 18:41   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tomkat
Uhm... you were Titans r7 weren't you?
Titans didn't use retals to punish our own members. We got one retal, under allied rules, against a Fury planet.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 19:55   #26
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Re: Re: Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
To be honest if that's the definition of farming then retals aren't farming. The whole point is that it's not for the purposeful benefit of the "attacker", it's to the detriment of the "defender". That may seem a very fine and pedantic line I'm dancing upon but to me it's a valid way of running your alliance. If you remove defence or kick the member you are weakening your own alliance. Retals do not weaken the alliance overall but do punish the individual. Perhaps if another method of doing the same was available I'd support getting rid of retals, however under the current circumstances I must disagree.
If you where at war and one of your soilders shot an ally by mistake, you wouldnt cut his legs off for it would you? There is no valid excuse for knowingly attacking an alliance memebers other than betrayal, which would mean membership of that alliance was terminated. I hope round 10 alliances can not attack own memebers...would eliminate the reason for most retails.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 20:09   #27
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Re: Re: Re: Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeus
If you where at war and one of your soilders shot an ally by mistake, you wouldnt cut his legs off for it would you? There is no valid excuse for knowingly attacking an alliance memebers other than betrayal, which would mean membership of that alliance was terminated. I hope round 10 alliances can not attack own memebers...would eliminate the reason for most retails.
That would be correct, but if the soldier ruined someone's kidney, would you make him donate his? It is not about irreparable damage, the 'damage' that is done in planetarion is always measured in asteroids.

The thing is that even if you were to retaliate an alliance mate, in most of the cases this is grossly abused by letting big planets take the roids of smaller planets. The balance shifts from penalizing one planet to aiding the other planet. There is a fine line and I think it would be very dangerous to allow alliance retaliations as a part of planetarion, I could see scenario's were people were to intenionally defend against their alliance mates just to 'legalize' the farming.

Apart from that I have very rarely seen a 'real' retaliation, mostly it has been about stimulating certain galaxies and players towards a greater growth with the intention to take in a top position ~a la ish.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 21:30   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeus
If you where at war and one of your soilders shot an ally by mistake, you wouldnt cut his legs off for it would you? There is no valid excuse for knowingly attacking an alliance memebers other than betrayal, which would mean membership of that alliance was terminated. I hope round 10 alliances can not attack own memebers...would eliminate the reason for most retails.

To be honest Zeus this isn't a war, it's a simple game with numbers in a server somewhere. In situations like this an effective alliance must maintain discipline if it wishes to perform at peak efficiency. If people know they can launch at members go offline, return and pretend they didn't know (or actually make an honest mistake) you don't pat them on the head and tell them better luck next time. However if it actually is a mistake equally you won't kick them, which really only damages your own alliance as he's probably going to go join youe enemies. As I mentioned above, if a system was introduced which shared the roids out equally among all members in the alliance would you still then be opposed to it?



PS I used to see a fair few "real" retals, however seeing as I haven't played that actively in a long time I can't really comment.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 22:20   #29
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I think in cases like this, the Creators need to stay the **** out of alliances' policies, and focus their efforts on "real" farming/cheating.

If someone in my alliance roided me "accidentally", I'd sure as **** want those rocks back.
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 23:02   #30
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Unread 5 Jul 2003, 23:38   #31
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Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
I'd like to issue a warning to all alliances. It seems that the PA-crew in it's excitement to proove they do hunt cheaters down have ushered into a new era. Alliance aproved retals for discretions aganst the alliance, a common practice for many rounds allready...
but not a practice of today.

who gives an ass about authed alliance retals?

just kick the member and roid him down, or kick him and do whatever with him. what you want is an excuse to farm, when needed, but you will label it 'alliance retal'. ffs, don't you see that?

Quote:
Originally posted by hAl

Just because peope are in an alliance does not mean thay get right to exchange roids. No matter what the reason !!!
Exactly, as it is farming. So you poor 'retalling your own members alliances' find something new to do..
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 02:30   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
I think in cases like this, the Creators need to stay the **** out of alliances' policies, and focus their efforts on "real" farming/cheating.

If someone in my alliance roided me "accidentally", I'd sure as **** want those rocks back.
You be the HC, Im the stupid peon who drunkenly attacked another memeber of my alliance by mistake. You tell me, "You creep, you have to be retailed for that" I agree and you tell me who will do it, what they are sending and when they will attack.

Whats the difference from the above and the agreement to farm?

Either way u look at it, it IS an AGREEMENT to attack and benifit to an individual.

No matter how you justifiy it, it is still an agreement between the attacker & the defender, which = farming.

Quite blantant tbh.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 02:38   #33
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by ParraCida
That would be correct, but if the soldier ruined someone's kidney, would you make him donate his? It is not about irreparable damage, the 'damage' that is done in planetarion is always measured in asteroids.

The thing is that even if you were to retaliate an alliance mate, in most of the cases this is grossly abused by letting big planets take the roids of smaller planets. The balance shifts from penalizing one planet to aiding the other planet. There is a fine line and I think it would be very dangerous to allow alliance retaliations as a part of planetarion, I could see scenario's were people were to intenionally defend against their alliance mates just to 'legalize' the farming.

Apart from that I have very rarely seen a 'real' retaliation, mostly it has been about stimulating certain galaxies and players towards a greater growth with the intention to take in a top position ~a la ish.
~a la a certain gods galaxy round 5?
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 02:39   #34
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: About Alliance Retals

Quote:
Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
~a la a certain gods galaxy round 5?
Yes, ish.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 02:55   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeus
You be the HC, Im the stupid peon who drunkenly attacked another memeber of my alliance by mistake. You tell me, "You creep, you have to be retailed for that" I agree and you tell me who will do it, what they are sending and when they will attack.

Whats the difference from the above and the agreement to farm?
Rofl

Would you like to take the blinders off, and then look at the scenario objectively? I'll tell you exactly what the difference is.

If I was a HC, and a member lost 150 roids to "friendly fire", I'd auth the plaintiff to launch enough pods to cap those 150 roids back from the perpetrator, give or take 1 or 2. No more, no less.

Farming is entirely different Zeus, you can't possibly compare the two.

Farming: a planet (or planets) who's sole purpose is to provide free asteroids to one (or several) individuals, on a reoccuring basis.

Authorized Retal: the retreval of a set number of asteroids from an allied planet, that were taken "accidentally" by another allied planet, on a one-time only basis.

The differences are highlighted in bold, just for you.


Quote:
Either way u look at it, it IS an AGREEMENT to attack and benifit to an individual.

No matter how you justifiy it, it is still an agreement between the attacker & the defender, which = farming.

An agreement between the attacker/defender does not = farming, I'm sorry to say. That statement has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

I'm sure there's a heap of players who would be more than happy to explain, in detail, exactly how the "anti-farming" rules don't work...or rather, are selectively (if at all) enforced.

This is all just another example of addressing an issue, without understanding it. Ultimately, the issue remains un-addressed, and all that came of it was a heap of useless 'rules'.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 04:36   #36
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Thumbs down

Let's say I am player A and someone else is player B.
Player A and B are part of the same alliance.
Player C is just some random target for Player A.
Player A attacks Player C, and is being defended against by Player B.

= The reason why I did NOT get roids is my own alliance member defending against me -> Punishment.

There are a lot of alliances with different rules saying how to act in situations like this and other invividuals who have their own ways. Delete the member from the alliance database? Cnut him into pieces? Kick his ass in RL? Ask him if he likes to play solitaire and nuke his I-net?

Now, I am obviously very pissed because I didn't get the roids. It doesn't help if player B says "sorry" - It won't compensate the loss of roids (not getting any).
Now if Player B realizes what he has done and wants to somehow make it up to me, then he can cover my loss of X amount of roids without me killing him, and stay "friendly" with me after this accident.

Sort of an example to catch my idea on what I just typed:

If I was playing poker (machine where you insert credits and try win some cash) and I was just about to win 100$, then someone pulls the plug out and I get no money tho I deserved them.

- I could kick his ass, twist his glasses to bits, take 100$ (or more) from his pocket and send him to IR and swear I'd kick his ass whenever I see him again.

- The guy could say sorry, I'll cover your losses and gives me 100$. I say alrightey then and shuffle away and he is still friendly with me. No need for further actions.

- I could say;"GIVE ME MY 100$ AND I WON'T SEND YOU TO IR!" - he agrees to "give in" aka "not fight". Same situation as above.

This is just to visualize the common situation here. How does it benefit me If I kick player B out of alliance database? (like a few have already stated in this thread) - It won't bring back the roids that "should be mine" roids.
I could off course organize huge cnuttage on him and TAKE the roids. The cnutting part is just waste of fleets again.

Quote:
Either way u look at it, it IS an AGREEMENT to attack and benifit to an individual.
This rule is so vague I really can't say much about it.
If someone (like player b) in this case is stopping me to get roids I'll sure as hell take them back from HIM in a way or another.
He only BENEFITS if he desides not to fight, and I benefit if I keep him in the alliance. (if things like this happen more than once or twice, it is obvious that this guy will no longer be part of the alliance he is in if he's causing so much trouble).

What if I am a zikonian and send a fleet to the guy. He is so much smaller than me that I will cap majority of his fleet in one tick if he stays, and get the roids. Double benefit?
If I tell him to go away and not lose any ships, both benefit in a way and he covers the losses he has caused.
I tell him to leave small amount of ships home to "make it look like a real fight" and cap them and the roids too?
He runs telling PA crew/Multihunters "I had to run otherwise he would have not taken only my roids but my ships too". Indeed.

My view is that if someone causes a situation like that, he should pay for it in a way which he can or cannot pick himself.
In "farming" there is no need to cover any losses. That's pure benefit for just the one getting those free roids.

--
As long as these situations are rated and qualified by looking at the PA Manual and Rulesbook it's just bullcrap.
Make it impossible to run while being attacked, make it impossible to cap free roids, make it impossible to have too much roids compared to your fleet score... You would have to make über fk up rules to deny "farming" or MultiHunters should get a grip on their doings. Some of them seem to be staring at the numbers and rules that say; only pod fleet getting free roids from a target who is running his fleet = FARMING.

"Farmers" have a huge advantage in this because it is so easy to bend the rules. Their farm planet got nothing to lose or win, and it's always a +/- situation for the attacker.

This is indeed a tough topic and I know it's hard for MultiHunters to "see the real case" from all those set ups etc. that some people do.
It's just a pity to see some quality players lose what ever they achieved for, in one single misunderstood case by the MH team.

Also, telling a big-ish player that he didn't pay for the round as evidence makes you lose your customers.

I don't post that often so sorry about the long reply. And thanks for reading if you did. I also cut down some point of views that have already been stated or seem similar to mine.
Feel free to comment and give your own views about this... Costs you nothing before 19th of July.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 05:31   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scouse
Titans didn't use retals to punish our own members. We got one retal, under allied rules, against a Fury planet.
Oh ok.
I knew about the retal on the fury member, I just assumed Titans did it in their alliance as well.

I stand corrected.

(No, that isn't an attempt at sarcasm).
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 07:22   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
Rofl

Would you like to take the blinders off, and then look at the scenario objectively? I'll tell you exactly what the difference is.

If I was a HC, and a member lost 150 roids to "friendly fire", I'd auth the plaintiff to launch enough pods to cap those 150 roids back from the perpetrator, give or take 1 or 2. No more, no less.

Farming is entirely different Zeus, you can't possibly compare the two.

Farming: a planet (or planets) who's sole purpose is to provide free asteroids to one (or several) individuals, on a reoccuring basis.

Authorized Retal: the retreval of a set number of asteroids from an allied planet, that were taken "accidentally" by another allied planet, on a one-time only basis.

The differences are highlighted in bold, just for you.

An agreement between the attacker/defender does not = farming, I'm sorry to say. That statement has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

I'm sure there's a heap of players who would be more than happy to explain, in detail, exactly how the "anti-farming" rules don't work...or rather, are selectively (if at all) enforced.

This is all just another example of addressing an issue, without understanding it. Ultimately, the issue remains un-addressed, and all that came of it was a heap of useless 'rules'.
Firstly: I'm glad you are nt my HC cause authorised retals are wank.
Secondly: You are wrong (and Zeus was mostly right)

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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 09:09   #39
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Tired of PA, and want to see biggest member of enemy alliance be pissed? Here's a solution:

Lets assume that biggest enemy planet, lets say top eclipse planet from 7:10 would attack you and no defence fleets available and you dont care what happens to your planet so much because you are waiting for round to end.

Send your fleet away to def attackers coords, and pa-mail all planets in your galaxy "I've agreed with Rob that he can get my roids without defence, please dont defend me"

And after that send email to [email protected] and ask them to check the coords that he is attacking because you fear that he is farming.


And here's what happens: multihunter logs into your account, and your galaxy mates accounts, and reads the messages, locks yours and attackers planets because of farming.

And as you were already planning to quit, you are happy since you managed to get biggest enemy planet locked too...

In here there is clear proof of agreement to be roided, and attacker is screwed even if he has been working like mad for months to get into top. (Or atleast is clear proof according to current multihunters who seem to log into other peoples accounts quite often)

re, MrJ

PS. Hopefully in R10 there are better rules and hunters that dont randomly close planets without 100% proof like in this round.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 09:33   #40
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This is kinda nonsence. The attacker won't get closed. He didn't do anything wrong and there's no proof that he did.

Btw I don't agree that farming has to be reoccurring. Farming is farming, whether it is done once are more often. Allowing people to farm once would still allow farming. You just need a lot more farms. I therefore disagree with Cochese's about the difference he pointed out between a retal and a farm.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 09:47   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
This is kinda nonsence. The attacker won't get closed. He didn't do anything wrong and there's no proof that he did.
Ofcourse it's nonsense, but has allready happened in this round, so how can you say that attacker won't get locked?

Thats the reason why I posted that example, since someone should give hunters some good guidelines about what is considered to be solid proof. As currently pa-messages also affects their lock desisions.

re, MrJ
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 10:32   #42
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PA messages can be proof. But then it's the sender that should be closed not the receiver.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 10:57   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
PA messages can be proof. But then it's the sender that should be closed not the receiver.
Well I never said that message receiver (galaxy mates) would be closed. I said that the farmee(your own planet) and farmer(attacker) would be locked since there is 'solid' proof in PA-messages and fleet movements which would indicate farm agreement. Attacker can't do much to to proof otherwise especially if those messages would say attackers nick etc intel data.

re, MrJ

btw. some of my bg members have allready used that tactic succesfully to lock top planets.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 11:09   #44
Jackal2112
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It is quite simple, so read carefully.

Especially brainwashed people like Biusa;

The most restrictive rules are always in place, this means that;

Planetarion has a set of rules, this goes above all other 'rules'. Ie: Planetarion rules are the most restrictive rules in the game and have to be followed at all times. Alliances can have a set of rules; these rules have to be made out of what is made possible from the rules of the game.

What does this mean;

1. Retalling for roids without defense with knowledge of the victim planet is illegal and *is* roid farming and can be considered roid farming as the Planetarion rules take precedence over the alliance rules.

2. Alliances who do authed retals accept the risk of having their retalling planets closed.

It can't get more simple than that.

For Biusa I have a real world example;

For planetarion it is possible to pay with creditcard. To be able to pay with a creditcard the creditcard has to be valid and the number can not be stolen and can only be used with the consent of the owner of the creditcard.

This means that, even if alliances have other ways to pay with creditcard, that if the above rules (call it, rules by law) are not followed (ie; paying with stolen creditcards or non valid credit card numbers, take LDK for example) is not allowed. Even though within the alliance this may be seen as a valid rule, and the HC would allow it, it is not allowed by the most precedent rules (or the law in this case).

So, take heed, the most restricive ruleset COUNTS. Not your vision, not that of the HC of your alliance, or a false interpretation of the rules, or, I DIDNT KNOW IT, etc is the one that counts.

Capish?

Now some of you will say 'wtf does law have to do with rules in a game?' well thats simple; The owners of the game are the law in this game; they set the rules to which we play this game, the rules that we agree to when we join. Like the same when you move to a country; by moving to a country and integrating you play according to that country's 'rules' ie law.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 11:14   #45
Jackal2112
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Quote:
Originally posted by jonni

And here's what happens: multihunter logs into your account, and your galaxy mates accounts, and reads the messages, locks yours and attackers planets because of farming.
Your whole theory falls with the fact that in R10 there will be fixed alliances in the game. Therefor if you do indeed send away your fleet from hostiles and claim you agree you are being farmed, people will just laff at you and claim you to be an idiot. On the other hand; if your own alliance will try to roid you, it would be valid, but easy to check since both planets would be registered to the same alliance.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 11:21   #46
LordNieminen
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[quote]Originally posted by Gerbie
[b]This is kinda nonsence. The attacker won't get closed. He didn't do anything wrong and there's no proof that he did.[quote]


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Actually they do, happened to my gal mate, because target went running to attack/defence, though it was he's 2-3th try on same target so it was counted as farming. (like i haven't myself tryed to roid few times same target, maybe even 2 times in same day)
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 11:29   #47
jonni
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jackal2112
Your whole theory falls with the fact that in R10 there will be fixed alliances in the game. Therefor if you do indeed send away your fleet from hostiles and claim you agree you are being farmed, people will just laff at you and claim you to be an idiot. On the other hand; if your own alliance will try to roid you, it would be valid, but easy to check since both planets would be registered to the same alliance.
Well nobody in right mind would register own farms to same alliance. Like if you are multi and dont want gal mates to def you would still message galmates not to def, and your farm planet would not be in the same alliance. And depending how is the new alliance code done securitywise some top alliances might not even register planets to be inside alliance unless it has clear benefits.

And currently planetarion rules has following guide farm definition:
"Any attack launched with consent of the attacked planet’s user with the agreed goal of giving the attacking planet asteroids or ships, without suffering what is deemed as normal fleet losses in the process.."

In that definition it's just enough to send your fleets away to defend 1:1:1 and then send anonymous email to [email protected] since attacker would be getting roids "without suffering what is deemed as normal fleet losses in the process" and thus is valid reason for lock and doesnt need to be anything to do with friendly or alliance fire. Actually you dont have to even pa-message galaxy mates, but its much more solid proof, if you think that fleet movement is not enough.

re, MrJ
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 11:33   #48
Gerbie
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To prove consent you need a msg from the attacker.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 11:35   #49
Jackal2112
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Ok you got a point but we are going off topic..

This thread is to discuss the fact that alliance retals can no longer happen due to PA rules. It's a bit confusing and a totally different subject, we are talking about retals, not farming here, something which will be made impossible (and i agree with that) especially in R10.
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Unread 6 Jul 2003, 11:39   #50
jonni
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
To prove consent you need a msg from the attacker.
yes one would imagine so, but many top planets have been locked in this round without any pa-message from attacker

And that definition only states that consent need to be from "attacked planet's user", so there doesnt even have to be consent from attacker by rules stated in http://main.planetarion.com/rules.html

re, MrJ
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