Planetarion Forums - [Controversial Discussion] GOD

Ste · 7 Jan 2005, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

Sorry for going off topic but i think you should revert to the non christmassy version of your avatar. And did you make that animation?

no i didn't

I like the christmassy one better. I'll change it sometime soon though...

Leshy · 7 Jan 2005, 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

People have come with countless explanations of how the universe came to existence but they always seem to have failed as their theories constantly have flaws. If the universe was not created by God and all of it was down to chance then why isnt there a single theory which has no faults?

Just because we do not understand something yet, doesn't mean that there is no explanation other than "God must have made it".

Ste · 7 Jan 2005, 21:30

Anyway, Inferno - You seem to think that science has finished. Science is ongoing and we haven't discovered everything about everything.
Saying - well your theory is flawed therefore there must be a God is stupid.

I happen to believe that something must have started the Big Bang but this is because my mind can't grasp the idea of the nothingness that existed before it. Infinite nothingness but the possibility of a Big Bang means infinite Big Bangs going off every second... Mind - Blowing.

Energy being made? Energy is stored as many different things - Energy In = Energy out. If it seems like it is being made it has just been stored in a way unnoticed.

Oh and JC - Believing in Evolution doesn't mean not believing in God. (not sure if that was your point) I know plenty of Christians who believe that the "World made in seven days" is a metaphor for evolution.

pablissimo · 7 Jan 2005, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

Anyway, Inferno - You seem to think that science has finished. Science is ongoing and we haven't discovered everything about everything.
Saying - well your theory is flawed therefore there must be a God is stupid.

I happen to believe that something must have started the Big Bang but this is because my mind can't grasp the idea of the nothingness that existed before it. Infinite nothingness but the possibility of a Big Bang means infinite Big Bangs going off every second... Mind - Blowing.

Energy being made? Energy is stored as many different things - Energy In = Energy out. If it seems like it is being made it has just been stored in a way unnoticed.

Oh and JC - Believing in Evolution doesn't mean not believing in God. (not sure if that was your point) I know plenty of Christians who believe that the "World made in seven days" is a metaphor for evolution.

http://www.drdino.com/

We watched a video of his pissed on Wednesday night, he claims that Evolution or the belief therein is the root of communism, capitalism and nazism, that sport is evil and that microelectronics are the work of the devil.

Funniest video I think I have ever, ever seen.

Inferno · 7 Jan 2005, 21:40

Well to be honest people you just made me lose £20. I tried to get 50 posts in one hour and failed. This thread was kind of just a bet but im not sure we are going anywhere with this.

I know science hasnt finished and it will not finish. But will it be able to explain how the universe came about and what is before and what is after?

God is eternal, was not born and cannot give birth and you could never comprehend him JC.

JC · 7 Jan 2005, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

Oh and JC - Believing in Evolution doesn't mean not believing in God. (not sure if that was your point) I know plenty of Christians who believe that the "World made in seven days" is a metaphor for evolution.

That wasnt my point. He seemed to think that because every organism is designed so perfectly it must be God that created them (i assume he means directly rather than having created a strand of RNA and left it to develop into everythign we have today). I was simply suggesting that this could have happened via evolution.

Edit: Seems i misread what he put, but never mind.

pablissimo · 7 Jan 2005, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

God is eternal, was not born and cannot give birth and you could never comprehend him JC.

Assuming He exists.

LHC · 7 Jan 2005, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

What about you? You seem to have done nothing but comment.

I also don't believe, as I have been given no reason to.

Zar · 7 Jan 2005, 22:06

There is no such thing as god

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 22:27

itt we realise that inferno has NO IMAGINATION

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

That wasnt my point. He seemed to think that because every organism is designed so perfectly it must be God that created them (i assume he means directly rather than having created a strand of RNA and left it to develop into everythign we have today). I was simply suggesting that this could have happened via evolution.

Edit: Seems i misread what he put, but never mind.

JC, as for the 'fine tuning' argument. Find out how much the laws of nature (especially the one relating to dark matter) would have to change whereby nothing like life would be possible in the universe.

its something like 1/10^120

that does seem to suggest that there was SOME kind of 'creator'. Or at least a REASON for life.

Dante Hicks · 7 Jan 2005, 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

that does seem to suggest that there was SOME kind of 'creator'. Or at least a REASON for life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 22:41

well, now at least i get to give this a name whenever i say it again, thanks

JC · 7 Jan 2005, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

JC, as for the 'fine tuning' argument. Find out how much the laws of nature (especially the one relating to dark matter) would have to change whereby nothing like life would be possible in the universe.

its something like 1/10^120

that does seem to suggest that there was SOME kind of 'creator'. Or at least a REASON for life.

I'm no physicist so i havent really got a clue what you are on about. If the universe is infinite though the chanes of finding a planet capable of having life on it can be as short as you like really.

Why does there have to be a reason for life?

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 22:48

well

my point was, which i probably didnt articulate very well, as im pretty damn drunk...

If the 'laws of nature' e.g gravity, electromagnetic force, other forces, were changed in their force even the tiniest amounts, 1 different digit in a chain of over 100: then life would not possibly have been created in the universe. Planets wouldn't have formed, other things wouldn't have happened, etc.

Basically, the laws of the universe as they are, seem DESIGNED to create life. To an astonishingly accurate degree.

Dante Hicks · 7 Jan 2005, 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

Basically, the laws of the universe as they are, seem DESIGNED to create life. To an astonishingly accurate degree.

If they weren't we wouldn't be around to speculate about it. That's the point.

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 22:52

i don't see how that can be a 'point'... it sounds a lot more like a pointless truism to me.

please, explain

P.S really, do, im drunk and crap

Dante Hicks · 7 Jan 2005, 22:54

Gotta go now, but hopefully Mark will be online soon to tell you.

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 22:54

off for a night of drug fuelled debauchery? good on you sir.

JC · 7 Jan 2005, 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

well

my point was, which i probably didnt articulate very well, as im pretty damn drunk...

If the 'laws of nature' e.g gravity, electromagnetic force, other forces, were changed in their force even the tiniest amounts, 1 different digit in a chain of over 100: then life would not possibly have been created in the universe. Planets wouldn't have formed, other things wouldn't have happened, etc.

Basically, the laws of the universe as they are, seem DESIGNED to create life. To an astonishingly accurate degree.

You are assuming some form of life couldnt evolve in different conditions based on our understanding of how life exists on this planet.

If the theory about the big bang followed by the big crunch is right we (as in this universe) could be the 2nd, 3rd, 7563820203rd time a universe has been created. Give it enough chances and something might happen. Like i said, i'm no physicist so i could be talking bollocks here

.

MrL_JaKiri · 7 Jan 2005, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

Do you believe in the existence of God?

I do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

What are your reasons for believing or disbelieving in him?

Because there is insufficient evidence to suggest that a god exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

Why talk about God if you have no knowledge about him or his existence?

Because other people raise the question. Of my own volition, I may talk theology, but I don't talk about god.

Also, why are you assuming that people on this forum talk about god?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

and as for my reasons in believing in him, i guess its mostly because the universe seems so finely tuned to "us"

Yeah, but on the other hand, if the universe weren't as fine tuned, we wouldn't exist. The Weak Anthropic Principle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

People have come with countless explanations of how the universe came to existence but they always seem to have failed as their theories constantly have flaws.

Point me to the 'flaws' in the big bang model. Please, use mathematics!

Please note that 'things we do not know' are not flaws per se; they are in a scientific theory, but the 'big bang model' is not a scientific theory, because it's not testable by empirical methods; what repeat experiment can you conduct to test how the universe began?

Lets turn this around; what about the flaws in the bible? Obviously, the literal interpretation of the bible is incorrect (there can be no argument over this), and the further away one moves from this, the larger the contamination, the intertextuality if you will, from modern knowledge. Where is the proof for the biblical method of creation?

Arguing with the scientific models as 'flawed', yet supporting the biblical one, is rank hypocrisy. You can argue from faith (again, logically flawed), but you cannot win a logical argument as to which is the superior explanation, because religion is dogmatic and science is not. Science is logical, and religion is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

If the universe was not created by God and all of it was down to chance then why isnt there a single theory which has no faults?

If you mean 'model of 'creation'', then see above. If you mean in general, then it is simply because that science isn't a method of finding a theory which has no faults. It is a method of generating and improving modelling methods that, at each stage, improve our understanding of the universe and make predictions from it. Furthermore, it is the nature of the empirical method that, even if you DO have a 'perfect theory', it is impossible to prove that it is perfect; you cannot disprove the existance of anything it doesn't predict. People say it is a weakness of the scientific method.

It is it's strength.

It disallows stagnation; as you cannot prove a theory, you must work your hardest to elimiate the possible areas at which it falls. This is, of course, an infinite task, however, there is not an area of science that has not made many iterations of its grounding theory, and, with every iteration, you have the ability to construct situations, predict events, which you could not before.

Science does a good job of telling how things work in the world but science cannot tell us they how the came about. One example is energy. Science tells us energy cannot be made. If it cant be made how it come to exist? I guarantee you that even if science could explain that there will be another question on that issue that will follow that science cannot explain.

Quote:

This world is fine tuned to perfection so that life can exist. Now why would that be?

Anthropic principle again.

Quote:

And of all the creatures in the world we are above them.

And again.

Quote:

What most people fail to understand is that the existence of God can never be physically proven.

I think you mean 'disproven'. It's perfectly possible to physically prove god exists if he sent down fire and brimstone. Like in the OT.

MrL_JaKiri · 7 Jan 2005, 23:05

I wrote my previous post a good 2 or so hours ago, I just didn't post it because of dinner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

But will it be able to explain how the universe came about and what is before and what is after?

Science isn't to do with explaining how the universe came into being, or other untestable things. We can derive models for that FROM science, however.

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

You are assuming some form of life couldnt evolve in different conditions based on our understanding of how life exists on this planet.

If the theory about the big bang followed by the big crunch is right we (as in this universe) could be the 2nd, 3rd, 7563820203rd time a universe has been created. Give it enough chances and something might happen. Like i said, i'm no physicist so i could be talking bollocks here

.

the other answer to this is the idea of the multiverse, where there are infinite universes with every different possibilty being played out etc. To me that seems rubbish, but its just a guess that its rubbish

As for the assumption that some form of live couldnt evolve under these other conditions. I personally have NO IDEA, but i saw it on a program and apparently many great scientists think that life COULDNT evolve, *shrug*.

Leshy · 7 Jan 2005, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

the other answer to this is the idea of the multiverse, where there are infinite universes with every different possibilty being played out etc.

Considering a part of infinite is still infinite, that means that there are also an infinite amount of universes in which life could exist.

How is it unlikely that we are one out of the infinite that does support life?

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 23:18

EXACTLY leshy, thats the counter argument to my argument, i was just mentioning it before anyone else did

MrL_JaKiri · 7 Jan 2005, 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

EXACTLY leshy, thats the counter argument to my argument, i was just mentioning it before anyone else did

Actually, I mentioned that.

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 23:29

did you? i missed it in in that case.

either way, i didn't do more than scan your post... it was TOO LONG!!!

Marilyn Manson · 7 Jan 2005, 23:38

I don't believe Nod exists.

Deepflow · 7 Jan 2005, 23:39

ok, ive read your post, and i still dont see a mention of the multiverse...

???

explain

Nusselt · 7 Jan 2005, 23:40

I don't believe in god nor do i disbelieve in him, i shuffle along with my little life and if it has a purpose at the end it'll be like finding the last malteser in the packet when you thought you'd finished them all, a pleasant surprise.

I don't like the phrasing though, id prefer to phrase it as i don't have any faith. God may or may not exist it can't be put to me with conviction either way. Im an agnostic without any faith in the institutions that claim to represent god. They may be very nice people and i don't begrudge anyone finding comfort in a particular faith, its just not for me. If i die and find god ill know he exists if i just fade away it won't really matter either way.

SOL · 7 Jan 2005, 23:50

personally i dont believe in a "god" due to real life issues plus the way things are in certain areas of the world , how can someone who created everything have so much suffering in the world

also i cant understand how people can believe in something,someone wrote in a book their is no proof in his/her exsistence and i cant see their ever will be, dont get me wrong im hoping their is more after we die but to belive 1 being made the universe is just total bollocks

MrL_JaKiri · 7 Jan 2005, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

ok, ive read your post, and i still dont see a mention of the multiverse...

???

explain

You were describing the Anthropic Principle, basically. That if the conditions for life do not exist, then there isn't life to measure those conditions.

Deepflow · 8 Jan 2005, 00:02

oh i see...

yeah, i did get that.

you need to fulfil dantes promise however, and take that theory beyond being a banal truism.

Boogster · 8 Jan 2005, 00:29

I do believe in a God. My reasons (expressed quite randomly) are thus:

I was brought up in a strongly Christian family. Undoubtedly, this has had an enormous effect. One's upbringing cannot help but to shape one's beliefs. I have had several experiences and seen things which I believe to be manifestations of His existence.
I do not have faith the sterility of science, or the inscrutability of much modern philosophical thought. I trust the human instinct, to some extent. It seems to me that we are drawn inexorably toward contemplation of 'God' in some form. My belief is based almost entirely upon faith. I do not think that the human race will ever prove or disprove the existence of God.
I believe that God created the universe. I believe this because it is written in the Bible. It seems clear to me, at times, because it is so perfectly formed.
Science offers no more credible alternative, in my view. Philosophy fails to satiate human enquiry.

But fundamentally, I believe in the Christian God. I believe that there is much more to a belief in a God than proof of its existence. I believe that God relates to mankind in amazing ways. The consequences of my belief are massive, and reach far beyond the scrutiny of science or philosophy.

melandron · 8 Jan 2005, 00:43

Don't believe in a bonevelant force, i have no problem with other people believing as long as

a, they don't preach it to me
b, they don't EVER inflict their morals to be detremental to the way other people live their lives.

I have a problem with most organsised religions, as it seems to take the act of faith out of it, it's a lot easier for people to "say" they believe when they can surround themselves with people who do. who would hold their convictions if they were alone? that would be true belief.

I just believe in treating ever human equal and not doing things to directly hurt anyone.

Tomkat · 8 Jan 2005, 01:44

I don't believe in "God" as such, although I do believe in a higher power than us, be if Fate, or some deity.

I'm against the idea of "God" though, as I don't believe we should try to personify a higher power, just to make it more manageable to our minds.

KoeN · 8 Jan 2005, 02:13

i don't believe there is god, nor a higher power or anything like it. and i hope i'm right.
my worst nightmare would be me going up to heaven after my death, meet God and then watch a video about my life with him. after the video we have a little chat and then he says where i will go to; hell or heaven.
forever!
and that's the worst thing that could happen i think. i don't want to live forever; not on earth, not in heaven and certainly not in hell.

ps: discussions like these stopped being controversial 50 years ago.

pablissimo · 8 Jan 2005, 02:59

Next week: Should women have the right to vote?

Phang · 8 Jan 2005, 03:08

the concept of eternal damnation disproves the concept of a benevolent God. I'm paraphrasing Bertrand Russell, but it's still the best line of argument I've heard on the subject.

Snurx · 8 Jan 2005, 04:58

I belive in nothing. I do not know why, but no theoires of the teological types have ever given me anything, and I've looked for answers.
I wish I belived, that I could give my life a dream or a purpose.

I don't know anything. The universe could have been created while I typed this, and everything before it has never happened exept in our minds, but I can't know that. So, I'l just toddle along in life, contemplating suicide but never having the guts, without purpose or dreams. That pain is better then forcing myself to belive in something I don't belive in.

Aryn · 8 Jan 2005, 05:38

i do not believe in god. i believe it is a personified 'higher power' used as an excuse to behave. it is a set of guidlines for ideal behaviour with concequences if you don't follow them (hell). i mean really.. if god loves everyone equally, then how could there be holy wars? if he loves everyone equally then why is there a hell? etc etc.

it just doesn't work for me. i believe in something different.

queball · 8 Jan 2005, 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snurx

I belive in nothing. I do not know why, but no theoires of the teological types have ever given me anything, and I've looked for answers.
I wish I belived, that I could give my life a dream or a purpose.

I don't know anything. The universe could have been created while I typed this, and everything before it has never happened exept in our minds, but I can't know that. So, I'l just toddle along in life, contemplating suicide but never having the guts, without purpose or dreams. That pain is better then forcing myself to belive in something I don't belive in.

Quoted for godliness.

Veil05 · 8 Jan 2005, 07:16

i guess i believe he exists but disagree with alot of the decisions he makes;

allowing young children to die horrific deaths.
cancer.
AIDS.

Intruder · 8 Jan 2005, 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

What is your definition of God? I speak of the more commonly known God of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

ohhh, that one definelly doesn't exist

MrL_JaKiri · 8 Jan 2005, 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepflow

you need to fulfil dantes promise however, and take that theory beyond being a banal truism.

That's the trouble with actually wanting to 'test' suppositions; you can't say much about historical events, or things that can't be measured.

MrL_JaKiri · 8 Jan 2005, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogster

I believe that God created the universe. I believe this because it is written in the Bible. It seems clear to me, at times, because it is so perfectly formed.
Science offers no more credible alternative, in my view. Philosophy fails to satiate human enquiry.

Laughing on the internet, folks!

cycle o path · 8 Jan 2005, 12:47

I believe in God. I am a Christian. I am an intelligent person (sorry _ryzekiel_). I am a Chirstian because I was taken by my Christian parents to church every week when I was a child and I grew up accepting Christian teachings as facts. In this respect, _ryzekiel_ was right, I believed blindly. However, as I grew up, I saw arguements against what I believed and saw that there were a lot of people who did not share my beliefs. I could no longer blindly accept what I had been taught, I began to question. I am a thinker and I spent (and continue to spend) a lot of time questioning my beliefs in my own head. I also talked to my parents, friends from the church and friends who are not Christians. Based on these discussions and my experiences of God both in and outside the church, I decided that I simply could not believe that God does not exist.

At the end of the day, this whole issue comes down to faith. I get fed up with people saying that God has been disproved by science - if this were true, how many people would continue to believe? The existance of God is something that cannot be proved (in terms of maths or science), it is something that I, along with millions of other people, have come to accept as 'Gospel' truth. I would say that I have seen enough to have proved to myself, far beyond any reasonable doubt, that God is real, that God made the entire universe and everything in it.

The next bit starts with an answer to someone else's point and then gets a bit preachy, please stick with it, you may mind it helpful.

Ste talked about God hating gays, non-believers and people who have sex before they are married. This is not true, it is an arguement that Satan has constructed to turn people against God and it has worked very well. The bible clearly tells us that God loves everyone unconditionally (no matter what they do or don't do). If God hated people who do not follow his commands, why would he send Jesus? Jesus lived a blameless life and died, paying the price (death is the price of sin) for each and every one of us. John Chapter 3 verses 16 and 17 says 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.' Romans Chapter 5 verse 8 says 'God demonstates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.'

Everyone sins, I know I do. As I said in the previous paragraph; the price of sin is death (this means not just death but also Hell) this is what we all deserve BUT Jesus died to pay that price and give us assurance of eternal life with God (Heaven). Romans 3:23-24 'for alll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.'

Hardly the act of someone who hates any of us, I think you'll agree.

Anyway, there's my beliefs, my reasons and, hopefully, some helpful points for anyone wrestling with the idea of God.

Belgarath The Sorcerer · 8 Jan 2005, 13:05

Oh, another debate on religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno

Just as the title says.
Do you believe in the existence of God?

No, I do not believe in the existance of 'god'.

Quote:

What are your reasons for believing or disbelieving in him?

There is insufficient evidence to support the existance of 'god'.

Quote:

I raise these questions because most people say things about God but when you question their beliefs and counter their arguments they just shrug off the issue.

That is the power of belief.

Quote:

Why talk about God if you have no knowledge about him or his existence?

Why did you post this thread?
Just because I don't believe in 'god' doesn't mean that I do not have any knowledge of 'him' or 'his' existance, and it certainly doesn't mean that I cannot argue theology with you, or the people that come knocking on my door trying to get me take a copy of Watchtower off them.

Quote:

How can the notion of God come about if no one has knowledge about him?

'god' is an anthropormorphic personification that was created throughout time by illiterate people in order to explain that which they could not explain. Religion has been used for thousands and thousands of years as a way to control the populace - a dictatorial theocracy if you like.
Religion today is primarily used for three things:
1. A phsycological crutch
2. Money making
3. An excuse to make war.

Religion is one of the root causes of all the worlds troubles.

Edit:
I should like to point out that I don't have a problem with people believing in any religion of their choosing. i do have a problem with people trying to force their religion/belief's onto me or other people against their will.

MrL_JaKiri · 8 Jan 2005, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycle o path

I get fed up with people saying that God has been disproved by science - if this were true, how many people would continue to believe?

Not quite right. You can never disprove that god exists; one of the founders of the scientific method, William of Occam, was a theologian with just this idea in mind.

However, science can, and has, disproved some of the assertions that are made in the bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycle o path

The existance of God is something that cannot be proved (in terms of maths or science)

Well, obviously mathematics can't. It's not designed to do anything of the sort. The existance of god can be proved by science, however, it's just there's no evidence (NO evidence) to suggest there is a god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycle o path

This is not true, it is an arguement that Satan has constructed to turn people against God and it has worked very well.

Hahhaha, try reading Leviticus sometime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycle o path

Everyone sins, I know I do. As I said in the previous paragraph; the price of sin is death (this means not just death but also Hell) this is what we all deserve BUT Jesus died to pay that price and give us assurance of eternal life with God (Heaven). Romans 3:23-24 'for alll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Are you 'wealthy'? Do you have personal possessions?

Jesus also tells us to give them away. Have you done so?

MrL_JaKiri · 8 Jan 2005, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer

Religion is one of the root causes of all the worlds troubles.

That's arguable; quite a lot of the 'problems' of religion were grounded in politics, with religion used as justification for the populace. Not religion's fault per se, it was just a means to an end.