User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Non Planetarion Discussions > General Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 13:59   #51
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
suggesting human beings are capable of walking around with guns in their pockets and act rationally with them is a severe misunderstanding of human nature and ignores any of the 'emotionalism' that you're talking about
Making suggestions about the results of having human being walking around with guns based upon a priori beliefs about human nature, while ignoring what actually happens in places where carrying firearms is legal, is pretty much the definition of baseless emotionalism and is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalac...f_Law_shooting

Last edited by Nodrog; 19 Apr 2007 at 14:13.
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 17:50   #52
_Kila_
break it down!
 
_Kila_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,087
_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I want to know when will the US ban these ****ing things?
Either when they decide to update their constitution or when a president can be bothered to go through the whole procedure to amend it.
__________________
I put the sex in dyslexia!
_Kila_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 18:23   #53
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Making suggestions about the results of having human being walking around with guns based upon a priori beliefs about human nature, while ignoring what actually happens in places where carrying firearms is legal, is pretty much the definition of baseless emotionalism and is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalac...f_Law_shooting
Not only is your argument fatuous but it is disingenuous in the extreme.

It is a trite tool of frauds and charlatans to claim there is no 'evidence' to support the opposition case and that their 'case' as plenty of 'evidence'.

We have a tragedy where 30+ people died in this massacre which would not have occured without guns. We have a comparable country with highly similar culture and equal social problems where guns are outlawed and we see 11 massacre free years. We have 11 comparable years in American with appalling loss of life from multiple instances of gun massacre.

You have nothing more than a link to a smaller massacre which shows that sometimes if all of the circumstances are perfect the total number of people killed can be reduced.

I do not want to reduce the death toll at individual massacres because I want to stop them altogether.

I am sorry that you consider my reaction to the multiple occurances of pointless and easily preventable deaths of innocent people (frequently children) to be 'emotional'. But given that your reaction has been to spout irrational rubbish I do not feel embarrassed by your example.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 18:43   #54
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Either when they decide to update their constitution or when a president can be bothered to go through the whole procedure to amend it.
I refer you to my post on militias earlier.
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 20:15   #55
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It is a trite tool of frauds and charlatans to claim there is no 'evidence' to support the opposition case and that their 'case' as plenty of 'evidence'.
Of course, you could refute my claim by providing evidence for your position rather than more adhoms and kneejerk emotionalism. I'm not going to bother replying to any more of your nonsense in this thread.

Last edited by Nodrog; 19 Apr 2007 at 20:23.
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 20:52   #56
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Of course, you could refute my claim by providing evidence for your position rather than more adhoms and kneejerk emotionalism. I'm not going to bother replying to any more of your nonsense in this thread.
Selectively quoting is another trite trick of frauds and charlatans.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 21:24   #57
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Defending yourself using a gun is likewise easier than defending yourself with a knife. The American college this happened at had recently passed a law preventing students from being armed on campus; the massacre would almost certainly not have succeeded if a couple of students in the classroom had had guns. The 'banning guns decreases/increases crime' arguments are intensely stupid - there is, as far as I know, no worthwhile evidence at all that suggests that gun bans have a significant impact on crime. The problems with America are largely cultural rather than having anything to do guns; other countries such as Canada/Norway/etc have just as widespread firearm ownership and a lot less violence. The whole debate is just blind emotionalism with very little rational thought behind it (see: any Yahwe post in this thread).
out of kindness to your retarded mind i thought i'd provide yet more evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimveer_Gill

Why exactly are you opposing me on this?
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 19 Apr 2007, 21:42   #58
dda
USS Oklahoma
 
dda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I'm just not comfortable with weapons being freely available
Freely available? He had to show his drivers license AND wait for ten minutes! How much stricter can we get, for god's sake?
__________________
Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
dda is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 15:27   #59
Radical Edward
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 4,911
Radical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

i agree with nodrog
__________________
I think it's time we blow this scene, get everybody and the stuff together..........

ok 3..... 2..... 1.. let's jam
Radical Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 17:35   #60
milo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,094
milo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himmilo is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Ffs

The university was private property, so the students were taking their lives in their own hands by joining if they agreed with pro-ownership debates, you can't blame the college for having its own rules.
__________________
boobs
milo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 20:27   #61
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
i agree with nodrog
I would call you absurd comment "aptly timed" if it weren't for the fact that these shootings appear to happen daily.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 20:30   #62
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Yahwe, you live in London.

I live in Birmingham.

Ste lives in Manchester.

Dace lives in Glasgow.

These are hardly places that don't experience gun crime and murders.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 20:35   #63
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Yahwe, you live in London.

I live in Birmingham.

Ste lives in Manchester.

Dace lives in Glasgow.

These are hardly places that don't experience gun crime and murders.
yet i managed 3 years of university and a lifetime of shopping at waitrose with impunity.

britain is 11 years massacre free and remains more liberal and more 'free' than the US; which btw can not manage 11 months massacre free.

I am not saying that banning guns will reduce the number of psychos. it certainly hasn't reduced the number of psychos in britain. however when one can not reduce the number of psychos it is prudent to reduce the threat level these existing psychos represent by banning guns.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 21:15   #64
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

My new point as pointed out by #forums last night, is that what is happening in the US of A is insignificant to us. We should be giving more press to what is happening on our streets, so instead of making silly laws that don't do much we actually tackle the problem of gun crime, murder etc head on.

Instead of thinking we are somehow better than the US.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 21:32   #65
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
My new point as pointed out by #forums last night, is that what is happening in the US of A is insignificant to us. We should be giving more press to what is happening on our streets, so instead of making silly laws that don't do much we actually tackle the problem of gun crime, murder etc head on.

Instead of thinking we are somehow better than the US.
Some (i.e. me) would argue that violence on the streets already gets way more attention than is justified by the actual amounts of violence. Whilst there are serious problems it is all sensationalised by the media.

tackling such problems is a long-term strategy that will do little to help people until these reforms, which need to be both social and economic. It is so politicised that serious policies to reduce such acts of crime (e.g. a proper reform of the drug laws) are politically unsafe and politicians would rather build more prisons.

I suppose there is also the argument that in a capitalist society there will remain this underclass and therefore to eradicate such crime there needs to be a total social revolution, but that's never going to pass the House of Lords.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 21:34   #66
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
My new point as pointed out by #forums last night, is that what is happening in the US of A is insignificant to us. We should be giving more press to what is happening on our streets, so instead of making silly laws that don't do much we actually tackle the problem of gun crime, murder etc head on.

Instead of thinking we are somehow better than the US.
then I think that you need to question your mentors intellect more closely than you have so far been doing.

The US making a law to ban guns would reduce these deaths by pointless psycho massacre.

Stopping the desire for one human to murder another is a different issue.

Your 'mentors' have conned you into thinking that the two are somehow connected. They are not.

You see a programme of vaccinating children against measels will not stop the possibility that a child will one day be murdered. However it will stop the possibility of that same child dying of measels. A banning of guns in the US will reduce the possibility of a child being shot to death in a massacre by a psycho; but it will not necessarily stop the possibility of that same child being murdered by dental floss by his jealous wive.

Do you understand why vaccinating children against measels is the right thing to do?
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 21:44   #67
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
then I think that you need to question your mentors intellect more closely than you have so far been doing.

The US making a law to ban guns would reduce these deaths by pointless psycho massacre.
No it wouldnt, and events generally have consequences other than the ones intended. Looking at isolated incidents (including large scale massacres) is a pointless way of measuring a nations level of crime/violence - youd be better off looking at the actual murder/crime rates and working out how gun legislation would affect them, rather than allowing yourself to be emotionally swayed by high profile incidents.

Most people who get killed dont die in school shootings or other massacres, so treating these as being a paradigm case of murder is stupid. There's something like 16000 murders a year in the US, so the 32 occurring at Virginia Tech arent even distinguishable from statistical fluctuation. It isnt a big deal in the larger scheme of things, and basing policy decisions around it is kneejerk reactionism - there isnt the slightest bit of evidence that banning guns would reduce the murder rate on a national scale, regardless of whatever warm happy feeling it might give you inside.

Last edited by Nodrog; 30 Apr 2007 at 21:52.
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 21:52   #68
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
No it wouldnt, and apparently events sometimes have consequences other than the ones intended. Looking at isolated incidents (including large scale massacres) is a pointless way of measuring a nations level of crime/violence - youd be better off looking at the actual murder/crime rates and working out how gun legislation would affect them, rather than allowing yourself to be emotionally swayed by high profile incidents. There's something like 16000 murders a year in the US, so the 32 at Virginia Tech arent even distinguishable from statistical fluctuation on a larger scale.
and there is something in not letting yourself be emotionally swayed into prefering statistical illusions.

welcome into the limelight. it must make a change from piglet's ample shadow.

banning guns would deny these psychos the opportunity to kill tens of people in one go. you seem utterly incapable of accepting this for no reason that i can fathom.

I'm not suggesting anything you normally hate; i'm not suggesting people be kind to each other, or that they laugh and joke, or that they join hands and sing.

I'm suggesting that one nation bans one human invention because we know that by doing so we would save lives.

You in the meantime are standing in the shadows waving your arms like a spastic and saying essentially "cancer kills more people than measels so why vaccinate against measels???"
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 21:56   #69
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I'm suggesting that one nation bans one human invention because we know that by doing so we would save lives.
Except it wouldnt, because theres no evidence that banning guns would save lives on a national scale, and all the poor analogies in the world arent going to change this.
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 22:04   #70
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Except it wouldnt, because theres no evidence that banning guns would save lives on a national scale, and all the poor analogies in the world arent going to change this.
banning hand guns has saved lives in the UK as we have seen post dunblaine.

I do not know what else you mean by 'a' national scale.

The diminution of deaths attributable to a cause are evidence. I do not know how better to evidence the utility of vaccinating against measels. And nor I suspect do you.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 22:13   #71
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

Tony here.


Sigh I just finished this exact same argument on another forum, didnt think I'd find it being argued here with the same fcking arguments.

What have the lawful and innocent masses done to deserve being strippped of their current rights?

-----

Which part of the US is it that we have a similar culture and society as btw? I have seen this statement before and I dont see it, hell there are parts of the US that have massive differences from each other, for example say Texas and California or Oregon/Newyork. An island nation of 57 million cannot easily be compared with a sprawling continental country of near 300 million which consists 50 partly autonomous states (every single one of which is larger than our fair isle I believe) .

We do not have vast swathes of land still untamed and sparsely inhabited by humans but filled with things that would happilly take a bite or swipe at a passing human (wether he be hunter,climber or hill walker) . By that same geographic quirk we also have nothing to actually hunt wether for meat or sport. Nor can we match their sheer population density in their major urban centres.


We may speak the same language and similar outlooks on life but we are not the same culture or society and to say we are is foolishness.


Why are you being so emotive on this topic yahwe? Can you not argue this is a sensible and rational manner? Even you must see that the odds of being killed by a random psycho massacre are pretty damn low?


If 15,000 each yeah are killed by gunfire (this includes gang violence and justified shootings, IE self defence by citizens) for a population of 250,000,000, you a 1 in 16,666 chance of being killed, less if your not a criminal too I imagine.

When you bear in mind that there are an estimated 80,000,000 legal gun owners in the US, roughly 1/3 the population those odds dont seem quite as bad as some would have you think.

D.C gun ban struck down
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4543337&EDATE=

and It looks like things are rolling towards a conclusion on the 2nd ammendment 'militia' issue


/edit who is that didnt die because they were not shot? You seem to be claiming that you have sort of precient vision regarding those who would have died if had guns where not banned? What about the ones who have died anyway, perhaps they would have lived?

Dont you think its better to strictly enforce existing laws (Dont murder, dont rape, dont steal,...these are not polite suggestions) rather than bind the hands of the law abiding even more tightly?
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.

Last edited by Sarina_Joy; 30 Apr 2007 at 22:22.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 22:24   #72
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Why are you being so emotive on this topic yahwe? Can you not argue this is a sensible and rational manner? Even you must see that the odds of being killed by a random psycho massacre are pretty damn low?
I'd just like to get those odds lower than they are.

and out of interest when did 'emotive' become the new 'nazi'?

I've yet to read an argument against my position (as opposed to an argument against me). Nor do i understand people who have lived their whole life without guns arguing that others should carry guns.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 22:59   #73
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I'd just like to get those odds lower than they are.

and out of interest when did 'emotive' become the new 'nazi'?
At the expense of the rights of others, the ones who abide by the law.

Im not sure what you mean by that, is it some new GD 'thing'? I simply think you are arguing for something based on your feelings about it, that imho is not the way to decide the rights and fate of others, your dislike and distaste should not dictate how I live my life.

Quote:
Nor do i understand people who have lived their whole life without guns arguing that others should carry guns
Does this not slice both ways? Also do really know all your opponents so inimately or are you making assumptions?


Quote:
I've yet to read an argument against my position (as opposed to an argument against me).
If thats aimed at me, dont look for one i have become tired of arguing the middle ground against bigots and extremists.

I believe that you are unwilling or unable to compromise on the subject, indeed you may be unable to understand the subject from the other side. I think its a mindset thing and I would be able to accept it with a smile and a sigh if it werent for the continued attempts to foist it upon others, it feels like religious prostylizing writ large.


I dont like it so it should be banned is not a nice mentality because its always applied against others never against yourself (the generic self not you as a person) .

*sigh* I'll be sinking back into the depths now.


Tony


http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=145379 this may be of interest, its only 60 pages or so now.
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:08   #74
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
At the expense of the rights of others, the ones who abide by the law.
do shut up.

neither of us lives in a country with a piece of paper telling us we have an inherent right to own guns.

there is no more a right to bear guns than there is a right to inhale helium.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:26   #75
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
do shut up.

neither of us lives in a country with a piece of paper telling us we have an inherent right to own guns.

there is no more a right to bear guns than there is a right to inhale helium.

Im sorry I could have sworn that you were telling the Americans, Who DO have that bit of paper that tells them exactly that, to get over it and give up that right.

Both of us live in a country where we do not have any inherent rights, Im humbly sorry if I dare to have the opinion that they have a better system than we do.


I will be silent and grovel at your feet begging forgiveness for having a different ****ing opinion and view of life from you.

PLEASE LORD AND MASTER FORGIVE ME, WHIP ME NO MORE FOR DARING TO RAISE MY WIT AGAINST THEE.

Spare me the scathing terror of 'Do shut up' as come back.
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:31   #76
lokken
BlueTuba
 
lokken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

We have rights, not all of them codified. Do we really need a constitutional document to say we have a constitution?

The US government, much like ours railroads over civil rights whether they are in a document or not because they legislate to do it, see the military commissions act in the US as one fine example.
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
lokken is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:33   #77
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Im sorry I could have sworn that you were telling the Americans, Who DO have that bit of paper that tells them exactly that, to get over it and give up that right.
Well, that's debatable.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:39   #78
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Well, that's debatable.

Which part?
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:44   #79
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Which part?
the premise that the Second Ammendment gives the average American the right to carry a gun.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:47   #80
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
the premise that the Second Ammendment gives the average American the right to carry a gun.

Did you read the link i posted re: Washington DC gun ban?

It looks like that argument is leaning more towards just that
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:55   #81
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Did you read the link i posted re: Washington DC gun ban?

It looks like that argument is leaning more towards just that
No. It's a 60 pages of people arguing about guns. If they are arguing a pro-gun reading of the Second Ammendment then it's a good job they aren't making gun laws in any country.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 30 Apr 2007, 23:59   #82
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

No this one:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4543337&EDATE=

i wouldnt actually inflict that thread on anyone, not even yahwe.
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 00:14   #83
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
No this one:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4543337&EDATE=

i wouldnt actually inflict that thread on anyone, not even yahwe.
Well it may be of interest to note that all three judges were appointed by Republicans. Hopefully the Supreme Court will over-ride the decision.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 00:50   #84
QazokRouge5
Back from timeout.
 
QazokRouge5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 901
QazokRouge5 is a jewel in the roughQazokRouge5 is a jewel in the roughQazokRouge5 is a jewel in the rough
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Guns don't kill people.
I agree.

Knives, cars, swimming pools, bicycles, airplanes, terrorists, baseball bats, pills, asprin, electricity, chainsaws, sharks, stingrays, bears, Russians, and fire kill people too.

Maybe we should ban those along with guns too Yahwe?

Grow a brain.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
You'll have to prise my penis from my cold, dead hand!
Quote:
Originally posted by Yahwe
Gay ducks only do it because it impresses their peers.
QazokRouge5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 02:07   #85
Dante Hicks
Clerk
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
banning hand guns has saved lives in the UK as we have seen post dunblaine.
Sorry, this may have already been covered - but how is this proved exactly?

According to this home office report :http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf :

- In 1995 stats show 299 injuries were handguns were the principle weapon used. In 2004/05 it was 779.

-In 1996 there were 49 homicides by firearms in the UK and 810 attempted murder/other wounding. In 2004 the numbers were 78 and 1,379 respectively.

- Between 1994 and 1997 the use of firearms in "reported offences of violence against the person" was level at about 2.5k. In 04/05 it was close to 8k.

The same report notes : "The number of firearm crimes which resulted in injuries has more than doubled in six years: from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 5,358 in 2004/05. The largest rise was seen in crimes involving non-air weapons.". It also notes that handguns remain the largest single category of firearm used.

Now, it's quite possilbe (and probable) that these things would have got worse without the ban, but just because we have not had a particular kind of massacre does not really comfort me much.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 1 May 2007 at 02:18.
Dante Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 02:16   #86
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

If a republican did it, it MUST be bad ;-)


I love partisan politics
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 04:02   #87
Tietäjä
Good Son
 
Tietäjä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Knives, cars, swimming pools, bicycles, airplanes, terrorists, baseball bats, pills, asprin, electricity, chainsaws, sharks, stingrays, bears, Russians, and fire kill people too.

Maybe we should ban those along with guns too Yahwe?
We should definately ban terrorists. And perhaps Russians too.
Tietäjä is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 07:39   #88
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Now, it's quite possilbe (and probable) that these things would have got worse without the ban, but just because we have not had a particular kind of massacre does not really comfort me much.
your comfort does not concern me.

addressing your other point - yes all arguments making disingenuous use of statistics have already been covered.
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 09:52   #89
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Emotive arguments are the best.
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 10:08   #90
lokken
BlueTuba
 
lokken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Gun crime will be rising so long as guns exist simply because criminals want to succeed, guns help them, so more get hold of them by illegal means. Linking the rise in gun crime to the fact guns are banned is simply absurd because making things illegal makes things more difficult to get hold of. Banning guns is not the cause of rising gun crime, yet in a nation where guns are freely available, people get shot and the public do not batter an eyelid because it is so common until people start rampaging in the compounds of educational establishments - I do not find that a satisfactory position for the United Kingdom.

What Yahwe is probably talking about is that handguns should be banned because the need to kill in self defence is actually very rare and to put them in the public population would lead to unnecessary loss of life that is well beyond this need and cause far more wrong than by giving people guns for so called 'self defence'. By making guns public, you have the following potential effects:

- people deeming it their right to shoot someone in self defence when it isn't, because situations of fear lead to manifest overreaction;

- giving access to guns in the population to people in sudden states of emotion/anger (which everyone is vulnerable to);

- giving free access of guns to mentalists who can go round killing people because the voices in their head told them to;

- let us say someone poor has no money, has a gun and is quite desperate. Instead of getting a job, or trying to improve their position in society, with a gun available you give someone desperate an option of a so called "easy way out" to commit crime and hold somewhere up. Yes you can do this with many household items, but a gun by it's nature is far more suggestive and can encourage someone to cross the threshold between law abider and criminal far earlier.

Let it be clear, I am not saying that banning guns stops gun crime or indeed stops people going into school compounds and massacring people. But it makes it far far harder and probably makes our society a lot safer than without a ban.

Guns are dangerous weapons with no use whatsoever apart from to kill people, it is their specific design aim - they bring nothing of note to society other than that, which is not the case with the items Qazok listed. In my view it's right that if we see someone with a gun, they should be told it's unacceptable, not just because they are likely to be criminals but also because of the dangers I've described above. The crime of being irresponsible is essentially the same, obviously the punishments we dish out should be very very different.
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

Last edited by lokken; 1 May 2007 at 10:14.
lokken is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 10:13   #91
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Gun crime will be rising so long as guns exist simply because criminals want to succeed, guns help them, so more get hold of them by illegal means. Linking the rise in gun crime to the fact guns are banned is simply absurd because making things illegal makes things more difficult to get hold of. Banning guns is not the cause of rising gun crime, yet in a nation where guns are freely available, people get shot and the public do not batter an eyelid because it is so common until people start rampaging in the compounds of educational establishments - I do not find that a satisfactory position for the United Kingdom.
"Gun crime' is a meaningless statistic anyway and focusing on it is fairly disingenous. All that matters is the crime level, not the instruments which were used to commit these crimes - lowering the rate of 'gun crime' isnt important if you arent lowering the general level of crime along with it.

Quote:
- through people deeming it their right to shoot someone in self defence when it isn't, because situations of fear lead to manifest overreaction;
Except it is their legal right in many places; several US states have far more sensible self defence laws than the UK does. In order to judge the effects that this has, you would have to actually look at the crime rates for these places. All of your other points are similar - I dont understand why people are so focused on constructing fantasy worlds about what might happen in countries with legalised firearm ownership instead of actually looking at what does happen. The crime rate figures are all public, you can find them in a few seconds on google.

Quote:
and probably makes our society a lot safer than without a ban.
on what evidence?

Quote:
]Guns are dangerous weapons with no use whatsoever apart from to kill people, it is their specific design aim - they bring nothing of note to society other than that
This is a rather important use when it comes to (eg) self-defence.

Last edited by Nodrog; 1 May 2007 at 10:23.
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 10:28   #92
lokken
BlueTuba
 
lokken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
"Gun crime' is a meaningless statistic anyway and focusing on it is fairly disingenous anyway. All that matters is the crime level, not the instruments which were used to commit these crimes.
This is absolutely true. I don't think the availability of guns stops people who are always going to be career criminals, not all. But I think it does affect those in society who are in situations vulnerable to poor judgment in situations of anger, emotion, desperation and mental trauma. All 4 of these are fairly common and I do not think allying poor judgment with guns is a very good idea.

Quote:
Except it is their right in many places; several US states have far more sensible self defence laws than the UK does. In order to judge the effects that this has, you would have to actually look at the crime rates for these places. All of your other points are similar - I dont understand why people are so focused on constructing a priori fantasy worlds about what might happen in countries with legalised firearm ownership instead of actually looking at what does happen. The crime rate figures are all public, you can find them in a few seconds on google.
I am looking at what might happen in the UK if guns were legalised by looking at what does happen in our criminal law and how and why people end up getting killed. Other countries culture to guns do not concern me - if the United States is happy with their situation given their countries history, good for them. But I don't think it's suitable for us.

EDIT: You might ask why the criminal law is relevant. It's relevant because in analysing these cases, the most important factors are motivations and intentions once you've established the facts. You look at why people commit crime and do things the way they did, be it rational or irrational but there are general trends you can spot.

The UK self defence law is pretty good by the way. If you have it any other way, you get people killing others at the slightest fear because they believe its their right to do so, when morally it may not be the case. I'm of the view that people like Martin absolutely deserved to get banged up, had he got off we'd have had more people getting shot when it wasn't warranted. Intruders are committing moral wrongs, that does not mean they deserve to get shot and potentially given a death sentence by someone who isn't a judge and jury. Likewise, simply giving others fear shouldn't necessarily result in you being shot either. That's why our laws on excessive self defence are so strict.

Quote:
evidence please.
I am just giving you my opinion, based on what I've looked at in the criminal law. Would you like to give us evidence of how liberalising gun laws would improve the situation? Are there any statistics from the future you'ld like to bring from your time machine?

Like you said above, only way you are going to cut gun usage is by cutting crime. By making guns legal, you open up several more avenues for ordinary people to commit crime. I think it's a fairly simple logical connection.
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

Last edited by lokken; 1 May 2007 at 10:38.
lokken is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 12:07   #93
Sarina_Joy
Twisted
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
Sarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriendSarina_Joy needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

It always seems to come back to the fact that people simply dont trust other people.

Thats a sad state for society to be in, we all fear and distrust each other so much.

What do intruders deserve lokken?

I feel that if you forcibly enter someones home with bad intent then you merit little sympathy if you are badly hurt or killed whilst they subdue you. Tony martin however went beyond that into the realm of vengance, as I understand it he shot both them whilst they fled after being confronted.
__________________
Me


In my sleep I grind my teeth.
Sarina_Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 17:10   #94
QazokRouge5
Back from timeout.
 
QazokRouge5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 901
QazokRouge5 is a jewel in the roughQazokRouge5 is a jewel in the roughQazokRouge5 is a jewel in the rough
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
It always seems to come back to the fact that people simply dont trust other people.

Thats a sad state for society to be in, we all fear and distrust each other so much.

What do intruders deserve lokken?

I feel that if you forcibly enter someones home with bad intent then you merit little sympathy if you are badly hurt or killed whilst they subdue you. Tony martin however went beyond that into the realm of vengance, as I understand it he shot both them whilst they fled after being confronted.
Absolutely.

Only a coward would stand idly by and let everything that he has workedfor be taken bya complete stranger.

There's a fine line between self defence and revenge. A decent person knows where to draw the line.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
You'll have to prise my penis from my cold, dead hand!
Quote:
Originally posted by Yahwe
Gay ducks only do it because it impresses their peers.
QazokRouge5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 18:01   #95
_Kila_
break it down!
 
_Kila_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,087
_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
According to this home office report :http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf :

- In 1995 stats show 299 injuries were handguns were the principle weapon used. In 2004/05 it was 779.

-In 1996 there were 49 homicides by firearms in the UK and 810 attempted murder/other wounding. In 2004 the numbers were 78 and 1,379 respectively.

- Between 1994 and 1997 the use of firearms in "reported offences of violence against the person" was level at about 2.5k. In 04/05 it was close to 8k.

The same report notes : "The number of firearm crimes which resulted in injuries has more than doubled in six years: from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 5,358 in 2004/05. The largest rise was seen in crimes involving non-air weapons.". It also notes that handguns remain the largest single category of firearm used.

Now, it's quite possilbe (and probable) that these things would have got worse without the ban, but just because we have not had a particular kind of massacre does not really comfort me much.
Find a similar US report and compare the figures.
__________________
I put the sex in dyslexia!
_Kila_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 1 May 2007, 20:16   #96
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
"Gun crime' is a meaningless statistic anyway and focusing on it is fairly disingenous.
oh look a confession.

What matters is preventing individual instances. I'd like to prevent these massacres (which apparently makes me emotive). However not one of the people quoting me has grasped the simplicity of this point.

I'm not claiming immortality will be the natural result of banning guns. I don't think that vaccinating against measels or TB is some zenith of physical heath. What I do think is that it is ridiculously lazy and stupid to not ban these weapons.

These massacre events are disgraceful. They are the easily preventable and yet the US does nothing. Each and everyone of the victims may well die within a year of various random events but that hardly makes it acceptable to permit these massacre events to happen.

One can not keep mortals alive indefinitely. However governments have a duty to prevent the preventable. They have a duty to vaccinate and a duty to ban guns. Quite regardless of statistics or other random matters which might validate their sloth.

Any government has a duty to protect even you Gordon whether or not, because of your weakened ginger state, you are in mortal danger of death by falling pieces of wiltered asparagus ...
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 May 2007, 00:05   #97
Dante Hicks
Clerk
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Find a similar US report and compare the figures.
What would that tell me about if the UK's handgun ban has saved lives or not, (which was what my post was in response to)?

But OK, if we do that - what do we find out? That the United States is a vastly more violent society than our own (duh!). But also that the murder rate between 1995 and 2005 (roughly the period I was comparing) the murder rate declined in the US but went up in the UK. (You're still talking several orders of magnitude high in the US of course).

But yeah - the UK is dramatically less violent society than the United States for a range of reasons - one of which is definitely the fact there are less guns in circulation here. But given that we have already banned guns and the number of guns that seem to be in circulation (and the offences linked to them) are increasingly (albeit unevenly) this might suggest it is not simple to get guns out of circulation - even when you've got a gun averse culture, overwhelming support, arguably stronger border controls, less space to hide things in, much lower history of gun ownership, etc.

If it's a case of having zero guns versus having guns then of course the desirable option is the former. But there are two hundred million-odd guns plus what must be billions of bullets floating around the US. Anyone with half a brain, as I may have mentioned earlier would stockpile both (simply as a business venture) in large quantities in the (inevitably drawn out) period of getting guns banned - simply as a money making venture. The logistics of getting these all handed in without incident is not simple. You've got to take a small proportion of the threats from various "gun nuts" seriously after all (and if there was organised resistance then God knows what the consequences might be - the Waco Siege killed more people than the Virginia and Columbine massacres combined and that was just a couple of hundred cultists, most of whom presumably didn't have any specific training). Just from a practical point of view, it might be better to go for a more gradual phasing out of guns rather than an outright ban (at a point when the NRA claim to have four million members).

The war on drugs involved punishing people with extraordinarily long sentences for being involved in the supply and manufacture of most harder drugs and yet (even if you exclude crystal meth, which is slightly newer) the real-term prices for things like cocaine and heroin are much lower than they were 10 or 15 years ago. Similarly, millions of dollars have been put into stopping population movement from Mexico to America (which is a bastardly treacherous journey anyway - with some thousands of deaths attributed to the trek) and yet many thousands still enter the US each year. What makes us think we'd have better luck eliminating guns?

Anyway, to return to the original point - to say that lives have *definitely* been saved by the handgun ban seems difficult to justify. I do not know of a complete list of all mass murders, or even what the specific definition of what that is (the people who live in the flat above me were shot twelve months ago - two were killed, another maimed, but I doubt we would call this a 'massacre'). But the two main UK ones which come to mind are Michael Ryan in 1986 and Thomas Hamilton in 1997 - both horrors beyond comparison, but crimes of this magnitude/type are mercifully rare (in this country). And it's not clear they would have been dramatically more popular since '97 without a ban.
Dante Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 May 2007, 11:36   #98
Radical Edward
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 4,911
Radical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Emotive arguments are the best.

damn rite. who are we to deny all those people who enjoy guns their entertainment just cos some whacko goes and kills a few people. there's 300,000,000 people in the US, and 32 accounts for what? a fraction of a fraction of hardly anything at all (far less than 0.7%)

and if the people in the university had more guns, then they would have shot him before he got them
__________________
I think it's time we blow this scene, get everybody and the stuff together..........

ok 3..... 2..... 1.. let's jam
Radical Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 May 2007, 11:40   #99
Radical Edward
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 4,911
Radical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
oh look a confession.

What matters is preventing individual instances. I'd like to prevent these massacres (which apparently makes me emotive). However not one of the people quoting me has grasped the simplicity of this point.

I'm not claiming immortality will be the natural result of banning guns. I don't think that vaccinating against measels or TB is some zenith of physical heath. What I do think is that it is ridiculously lazy and stupid to not ban these weapons.

These massacre events are disgraceful. They are the easily preventable and yet the US does nothing. Each and everyone of the victims may well die within a year of various random events but that hardly makes it acceptable to permit these massacre events to happen.

One can not keep mortals alive indefinitely. However governments have a duty to prevent the preventable. They have a duty to vaccinate and a duty to ban guns. Quite regardless of statistics or other random matters which might validate their sloth.

Any government has a duty to protect even you Gordon whether or not, because of your weakened ginger state, you are in mortal danger of death by falling pieces of wiltered asparagus ...

its not like guns r only used for killing people u know.
__________________
I think it's time we blow this scene, get everybody and the stuff together..........

ok 3..... 2..... 1.. let's jam
Radical Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 2 May 2007, 14:35   #100
_Kila_
break it down!
 
_Kila_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,087
_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society_Kila_ is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
What would that tell me about if the UK's handgun ban has saved lives or not, (which was what my post was in response to)?

But OK, if we do that - what do we find out? That the United States is a vastly more violent society than our own (duh!). But also that the murder rate between 1995 and 2005 (roughly the period I was comparing) the murder rate declined in the US but went up in the UK. (You're still talking several orders of magnitude high in the US of course).

But yeah - the UK is dramatically less violent society than the United States for a range of reasons - one of which is definitely the fact there are less guns in circulation here. But given that we have already banned guns and the number of guns that seem to be in circulation (and the offences linked to them) are increasingly (albeit unevenly) this might suggest it is not simple to get guns out of circulation - even when you've got a gun averse culture, overwhelming support, arguably stronger border controls, less space to hide things in, much lower history of gun ownership, etc.

If it's a case of having zero guns versus having guns then of course the desirable option is the former. But there are two hundred million-odd guns plus what must be billions of bullets floating around the US. Anyone with half a brain, as I may have mentioned earlier would stockpile both (simply as a business venture) in large quantities in the (inevitably drawn out) period of getting guns banned - simply as a money making venture. The logistics of getting these all handed in without incident is not simple. You've got to take a small proportion of the threats from various "gun nuts" seriously after all (and if there was organised resistance then God knows what the consequences might be - the Waco Siege killed more people than the Virginia and Columbine massacres combined and that was just a couple of hundred cultists, most of whom presumably didn't have any specific training). Just from a practical point of view, it might be better to go for a more gradual phasing out of guns rather than an outright ban (at a point when the NRA claim to have four million members).

The war on drugs involved punishing people with extraordinarily long sentences for being involved in the supply and manufacture of most harder drugs and yet (even if you exclude crystal meth, which is slightly newer) the real-term prices for things like cocaine and heroin are much lower than they were 10 or 15 years ago. Similarly, millions of dollars have been put into stopping population movement from Mexico to America (which is a bastardly treacherous journey anyway - with some thousands of deaths attributed to the trek) and yet many thousands still enter the US each year. What makes us think we'd have better luck eliminating guns?

Anyway, to return to the original point - to say that lives have *definitely* been saved by the handgun ban seems difficult to justify. I do not know of a complete list of all mass murders, or even what the specific definition of what that is (the people who live in the flat above me were shot twelve months ago - two were killed, another maimed, but I doubt we would call this a 'massacre'). But the two main UK ones which come to mind are Michael Ryan in 1986 and Thomas Hamilton in 1997 - both horrors beyond comparison, but crimes of this magnitude/type are mercifully rare (in this country). And it's not clear they would have been dramatically more popular since '97 without a ban.
I don't have figures, but my point was that the ban on guns has probably slowed the rate of increase in gun crime.
__________________
I put the sex in dyslexia!
_Kila_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018