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Unread 17 May 2007, 17:54   #1
All Systems Go
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A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Well here we are again folks.

We al know I have a tendancy to feel aggrieved by little things and wish to destroy the world over less. this time though there are a few very important things to note from the off.

1) I genuinely believe I have a serious grievance this time
2) It is not an irrelevant amount of money
3) Yes, I am so stupid to let this happen

Please keep in mind point 3 at all time whilst reading this thread, it's very important.


A couple of weeks ago I recieved a phone-call from Virgin Media offering to give me tv and a phone line etc from an extra £2 a month. they asked if I was interested, I said 'No thank you'. they asked if I would like to be put on a short-list just in case I changed my mind, to save me the hassle of waiting a few extra weeks. I said 'No thank you'.

Why did I get this splendid offer? you might ask. the answer is, because ntl have bought Virgin Media (but kept the Virgin brand-name) and they were trying to sell me the rest of their package.

Anyway, he decided I was not to be moved on the issue and we both went our seperate ways.* All way fine and dandy until this morning when I recieved my monthly bank statement. Having less money than I had expected (and being very near my overdraft limit) I decided to have a look through and see where all my money had gone.**

On the second page I noticed a charge of £18 to Virgin Media. I was a little perplexed but then realised 'Oh, it must be for the internet'. Having resolved this mini-crisis I continued to check my statement, only to find something very disturbing. It was a £15 charge for AOL Broadband.

It was at this moment that I remembered that I use AOL for the internet.*** I had used ntl whilst in uni but cancelled that shortly before I moved back home. So I looked up the number for virgin Media and gave them a call. Needless to say, it was a nightmare and if I didn't think at that moment I had been signed-up for something I had expressly said 'No, thank you' to, it probably would hve wore me down. I was put only hold at least 8 times and spoke to no less than 6 different people****. I eventually ended up one the phone with a woman who at least able to give me some information. What she said caused so many feelings to rise up through me that I nearly acted indignantly.

She informed me that the charge was for Virgin Internet and was for the house I used to live in whilst I was in university. I was confused. I explained to her that I had cancelled the internet before I had left that house. She informed me that the account had been marked for cancellation but it had not happened. She didn't know why. So, she put me on hold again and transferred me to another department.

this time I spoke to a gentleman who again put me on hold once I told him what the lady had told me about their failure to cancel my account. He got back to me and told me that I had not cancelled my account and that I had to cancel it in October, when it expired. I informed him that I had spoken to a person on the phone in the summer before and she said that it was no problem to cancel my account in October and that it would be done for me, but I would have to pay until the end of the contract.

He kept insisting that it didn't happen and that I would have had to pay a fee for breaking my contract or phone up in October to cancel it. Having had enough of being called a liar I asked when I would get my money refunded for all the months they had been charging me after I had requested they cancel my account. He said he didn't have the authority to and would have to speak to his boss and that he would call me back on my mobile later today to sort things out. I agreed and hung up.

this was about six hours ago and I have still not heard anything from him. I shall be phoning up tomorrow to sort this out but I really don't know my rights in this regard. the money is well over £100 now. It started at £9 a month and hassince moved up to £18 so I really want it back.

How likely am I to get my money back?
What attitude should I take on the phone?
Am I intitled to the money?

If I get it back, with my insurance for the car I should have a pretty winfall whih could open some doors to me getting the hell out of here. Please advise me and help to unleash these shackles holding me down!

*In all honesty this should have been when I realised something was not right
**In my defence, this is something I normally don't do
***remember point 3
****honestly, this is no exaggeration
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Unread 17 May 2007, 18:33   #2
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

NTL sort of did the same to me with my phoneline when I left uni, I had finished any contract with them, couldn't actually use the phone, then billed me in December for two months (about 3 months after I had cancelled and moved out). I never did get my money back, and they charge took me over my overdraft limit as I wasn't expecting it (annoyingly done at the end of the month so by the time I noticed, roughly 5 days later, I had been over my limit in two calendar months so got fined twice) :/. Never did get any money back though Nationwide did say there was some direct debit retrieval form I could fill out and that could get me my money back. That may work for you with a few of the months.

I don't get it though, surely they normally sign you up to one year contracts? By this October it will be virtually two years since you would have joined.
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Unread 17 May 2007, 18:36   #3
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

the contract could be cancelled in OCtober 2006.

I phoned up June/July 2006 to cancel it . they said 'no problem, but you will be charged until October.'

But they never stopped charging. I didn't really look at my statements and all my bills went to my Swansea address.
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Unread 17 May 2007, 18:59   #4
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

The internet company I had at university stopped charging me after I physically went down to their offices and sorted it out in person. It took a couple of months of phoning back and forth before that. Luckily they were based in Exeter.

The amusing thing is that they still haven't removed my webspace, even though it's now almost 3 years since I left them. I can still add stuff to it.
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Unread 17 May 2007, 23:56   #5
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

sounds to me like they really ****ed up, give them grief until you get your money back mate, if they keep being ****s, go to the CAB and get them to help you with a letter (i know you dont actually need the help but generally citizens advice know the right wording to use) and hopefully you should be able to get it cleared up
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Unread 18 May 2007, 00:00   #6
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

NTL tried to do the same to me as well utter muppets, you should have kept pressing to speak to someone with authority and not some call centre lackey.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 00:06   #7
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

and they ask me why Im a communist!!
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Unread 18 May 2007, 00:56   #8
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
How likely am I to get my money back?
What attitude should I take on the phone?
Am I intitled to the money?
They have made a mistake and overcharged you, if you complain enough you will get your money back.

The key to getting your money back quickest is to force them to deal with you. If you keep phoning up letting them transfer you and end up putting the phone down without getting anything concrete from them you won't get your money back. You have to remember that you are not trying to get your money back from the person on the other end of the phone but from the company they work for so don't lose your temper with them.

So when you phone them up, have a pad of paper and a pen ready. Also make sure you know exactly how much they owe you and have the bank statements on hand so you can tell them the dates and the exact amounts if they ask.

When you phone them up say you want to make a complaint because you have been incorrectly charged. Explain to the person that the situation is the companies fault:
You phoned up to cancel in June(or whenever). They said that was fine and that you didn't need to do anything else. Point out that when you phoned up before they agreed that the account was marked for cancellation, so it must be a mistake on their part. Point out that you couldn't possibly have used the account because you had moved house. Don't let them make excuses. You never signed a new contract you don't owe them anything, they need to return all your money.

Once you have got them to admit they are wrong its relatively straight forward to get your money back. However make sure you agree the amount to be repaid, make sure they give a date by when it will be repaid. 2 working weeks is normally reasonable. Then make sure you get the name of the manager, his position and which branch he works at. Also ask for a way to directly contact him if you don't see the payment.

If they start messing you around and transfering you ask for their names, what position they hold and which branch they work at. If they know you can complain about them personally they will just put you through to a manager because their job just isn't worth that much. Don't let them transfer you and don't put the phone down, they will eventually give in.

Write things down. Get names and make them accountable for everything they say. If they say they need to phone you back say you will phone them in x hours and ask for a direct phone number. Ask for an address to write to if they keep refusing to give your money back. Don't be afraid to make them spell out the addresses etc.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 07:34   #9
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

The above post is fairly comprehensive.

I'd only add sometimes it's worth asking someone's name at the start of the call a lot of the time, so they treat it more seriously. Don't do it from the context of someone who is very angry, just as someone who likes keeping very accurate records.

Be friendly and empathic with the person you speak to, even if they're a ****wit. I tend to mention (if, say the person apologises the system is slow or uses a similar cliche) that it's OK, I know what it's like, I used to work in a call centre until recently or something like that. Solidarity, etc.

If you ask to speak to someone's manager, don't do it with the tone "I HAVE MY RIGHTS, YOU ARE SHIT, PUT ME THROUGH", but say (unsarcastically) "Well, you've been very helpful and I think this has clarified the situation, but if it's OK, I'd like to speak to your line manager please, is that OK?". Most of the time they will (well, I find, I rarely have a problem since I'm not allowed accounts anymore).

Or just put all the facts (devoid of moral outrage, abuse or exaggeration) in a letter headed "Formal Complaint" and send it to their Customer Services Director (the name of whom is probably somewhere on literature they've sent you, or their website, etc). You can try marking it "P&C" too, but I wouldn't bother. Anyway, put your complaint in the tone of "This is disappointing, because I have been a good customer of NTL and had the greatest respect for the Virgin brand..." (rather than calling them crooks). Don't threaten them with taking this to the high court or other silliness, but say "I hope we can resolve this matter as speedily as possible, and it will not be necessary for me to escalate this matter further within your organisation's complaints procedure." (or something like that).
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Unread 18 May 2007, 11:16   #10
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Basically I am being stone-walled. I put the phone down. I am weak.

'We can see that you called up but there's nothing to suggest we would disconnect you. It's not our policy to do so, you have to call up on the day. We can't possibly refund such an amount and we have no need to do so.'

When I floated the possibilty that I was misinformed, they replied:

'We don't have to give you a refund for bad information'

I have the address of their complaints department and of their head office. What should be my next step?
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Unread 18 May 2007, 11:45   #11
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

If you fill in a direct debit authorisation in germany you can still cancel the last charges they made to your account afaik ...

maybe just call your bank and see if that is possible?

there might be a time limit to that though like 14 or 30 days - still worth a try!
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Unread 18 May 2007, 11:50   #12
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Sounds like negligent misrepresentation to me, ASG. Go down to your local Citizens Advice Bureau though, they're usually good with this sort of thing.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 11:54   #13
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Well the local one is only open on a tursday and I've been phoning the Swansea one for the past half and hour and I've not recieved an answer yet. Although I did recieve a 'this call cannot be taken at this time and you cannot leave a message, please try again later.'

the Citizens Advice Bureau is giving me the cold shoulder.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 19:50   #14
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Sounds like negligent misrepresentation to me, ASG. Go down to your local Citizens Advice Bureau though, they're usually good with this sort of thing.
rubbish.

Man has contract. Man cancels contract. Company fails to implement cancellation and then carries on charging.

It's very simple. ASG was entitled to cancel the contract after set period of time. He canceled in advance - so be it. ASG was still well within his contractual rights to do so.

ASG you need to kick up a fuss. Do not listen to fools like furball and for goodness sake do not try and argue law with them. The law involved here is so utterly basic. If you must threaten anything threaten the Consumer Protection Act or "my statutory rights". Never argue law with non-lawyers - you are in the right, this is disgraceful so .... KEEP TELLING THEM UNTIL THEY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
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Unread 18 May 2007, 20:06   #15
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
He kept insisting that it didn't happen and that I would have had to pay a fee for breaking my contract or phone up in October to cancel it.
This is the bit that confuses me.

When i wanted to cancel my net connection with Tiscali (as I was moving back in with my dad) I rang up and inquired about it. The lady said as it was a 12 month contract that I had two choices:
1. Continue to pay my monthly charge until the 12 months were up (in November or so).
2. Pay off the total outstanding balance from then until November (£120 or so).

In the end I just forked out the money for the net each month and then as soon as November rolled around, rang them up and cancelled the whole thing.

Are you sure you had completed the required 12 month period before cancelling? If not, you might want to check the contract as I think they're entitled to charge you for those months you signed up for, even if you didn't use the net.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 20:08   #16
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Oh also I never have any problems with corporations because I am a nice well-mannered young man with a respectable phone voice who is polite to the people on the end of the phone and so they are nice back to me
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Unread 18 May 2007, 20:16   #17
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Oh also I never have any problems with corporations because I am a nice well-mannered young man with a respectable phone voice who is polite to the people on the end of the phone and so they are nice back to me
And I have no trouble because the whole damn lot of them think that i'm "posh".

But I do not want to live in a world in which the only people who are properly (and it is not 'well' it is 'properly' - the way that all people deserve to be treated) treated are those who sound the way that I do.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 21:19   #18
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Are you sure you had completed the required 12 month period before cancelling? If not, you might want to check the contract as I think they're entitled to charge you for those months you signed up for, even if you didn't use the net.
I think what the problem is they have charged him even after the contract was over.

A rough timeline I guess he signed up in October 05 during uni.
In June 06 when he graduated he tried to cancel, told he had to see out the contract but that it would be marked for cancellation which would occur as soon as the 12 months was up.
This month he notices that he is still being charged.

One person said it had been marked for cancellation and isn't sure why it wasn't.
Another then said that you can't set your account to auto cancel in three months, you either pay off the rest of the contract immediately, or phone up again after the minimum length runs out and then cancel it.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 21:22   #19
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Oh also I never have any problems with corporations because I am a nice well-mannered young man with a respectable phone voice who is polite to the people on the end of the phone and so they are nice back to me
Certain corporations just have procedures/systems in place which make it very difficult for their staff to do anything at all, let alone "nice". Sometimes this is no doubt deliberate, but usually seems to be a side-effect of outsourcing/merging/etc and the people lin positions of authority may not even realise.

When dealing with "Three" mobile, the phone agents with were all polite (although the line quality was poor to their Indian call-centre) but to get my contract cancelled involved being put through to another department. Which couldn't be phoned directly, apparently. Everytime I was put through I just held internally for upto 20 mins and then either had to end call or was cut off. I also wrote to them but they apparently didn't receive it (like a fool I didn't use recorded delivery). They kept charging me of course, but I never paid the bill.

No idea if they're still chasing the debt, I'm sure when I re-register on the electoral roll the letters will show up. If they ever get their money, I'm hoping the admin fees will have amounted to whatever it is I owe.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 21:32   #20
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Certain corporations just have procedures/systems in place which make it very difficult for their staff to do anything at all, let alone "nice". Sometimes this is no doubt deliberate, but usually seems to be a side-effect of outsourcing/merging/etc and the people lin positions of authority may not even realise.

When dealing with "Three" mobile, the phone agents with were all polite (although the line quality was poor to their Indian call-centre) but to get my contract cancelled involved being put through to another department. Which couldn't be phoned directly, apparently. Everytime I was put through I just held internally for upto 20 mins and then either had to end call or was cut off. I also wrote to them but they apparently didn't receive it (like a fool I didn't use recorded delivery). They kept charging me of course, but I never paid the bill.

No idea if they're still chasing the debt, I'm sure when I re-register on the electoral roll the letters will show up. If they ever get their money, I'm hoping the admin fees will have amounted to whatever it is I owe.
In a dante world consumers unilaterally cancel contracts or the companies screw the consumer over ...

what a socialist paradise.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 22:45   #21
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
In a dante world consumers unilaterally cancel contracts or the companies screw the consumer over ...

what a socialist paradise.
I tried to cancel with them though, they just didn't listen. If I hadn't been going through "Ignore my debts, destroy credit rating" phase I would have resolved it, but oh well.

I try to help out the capitalists where I can. Recently I had some issues with Pipex (actually one of their subsiduaries). I ordered some webhosting, then very quickly I realised I wanted to upgrade to a higher value service. But they wouldn't let me. Instead, I was asked to cancel the whole thing (which they required in writing for some reason) and then I could re-order (I would receive a refund, they would delete my hosting and then set it up again). But I had begun using the space already, and didn't want the hassle of re-ordering. (I have to have the order carried out by someone else for unrelated personal reasons).

Anyway I was trying to give them more money, but it wasn't an option without (in my opinion) an unduly time consuming process considering the technical ease at their end (unless they are iditos). So I didn't bother in the end.

But I have taken the step of writing to their head office to advise them of this potential lost profits. So you see, when I'm not thinking of the children I do occassionally give some thought to the shareholders.
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Unread 18 May 2007, 23:32   #22
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I tried to cancel with them though, they just didn't listen. If I hadn't been going through "Ignore my debts, destroy credit rating" phase I would have resolved it, but oh well.
but oh well what?

why are you better than a corrupt capitalist? both you and he ignore the rules and live in an ignorant paradise of supposed immunity.

I know that you think me terribly terribly dull. Yet while you scream and cry in support of vaulted principles which are the opposite of your 'enemies' and yet have such a disturbingly similar practical outcome - all i ever concern myself with is the "rules".

From my eyes, free of the glare of socialist worker badges and the certainty of a right wingers inhumanity, all i see is rules. The company who have done this to ASG are wrong to have done so. Wrongs must be righted. What you did in your past was also wrong.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 06:50   #23
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
but oh well what?
Oh well, I can't really do anything about it now (read : can't be arsed).

I have had many small private debts like this one, and if Three have dealt with it like the others (which I am repaying, as an aside). That is they will have referred the matter to a debt collection agency (or more likely, several dozen by this point) who will all threaten court action but not bother since the debt is less than £100. Once it's got to them, I've lost all hope any sort of "negotiation". Perhaps if it went to court they'd have to prove the debt, and I could do something then - I don't know tbh. But British Gas have been chasing me for three years for £54. Fair enough. When I went through my debt "reorganisation" I obviously included all the debts (minus the Three one which I had forgotten about at that stage). And so I've repaid a few grand of the overall debt. Fine. But British Gas have not actually accepted payment for this gas bill because the organisation who was handling it refused to speak to the CCCS. So I am repaying an electricity bill from the same property / period to British Gas, but the gas one which the CCCS have tried to pay on my behalf advise me they can't as British Gas refuse to acknolwledge the reference number - despite it being copies of letters from their debt collectors, etc.

Basically I don't have the desire or will to sort it out. My credit rating is destroyed for at least the next eight years, there's very little incentive to do anything about it. Maybe that does make me as bad as the corrupt untouchables but meh.
Quote:
why are you better than a corrupt capitalist? both you and he ignore the rules and live in an ignorant paradise of supposed immunity.
I'm not sure I am "better", it depends on the circumstances. The difference I would generally point to (depending on who you are talking about) is that they would (I presume) tend to claim they were law-abiding individuals who are in broad agreement with the status quo. But it depends on who you mean when you say corrupt capitalists. There are a couple of people of businessmen who have said they are "professional criminals", and as such I value their honesty. But corruption means a variety of things so I cannot comment. There are probably people in this world though who have never broken a law, but I still might view as corrupt for instance.

The primary critera would be outcomes. If we (where I work) pay our suppliers six months late then we are equally guilty of a breach of the rules irrespective of how much the invoice was for, and what impact it might have on their turnover. But in reality the severity of the real-world situaiton will affect how I'd see it, in terms of priority at least. If we have an invoice awaiting payment which will have a huge impact on a very small contractor's cash-flow (to the point where it has impacted in turn on his or her personal standard of living) then in terms of prioritising I cannot of course necessarily say that is exactly the same as another contractor who have a multi-million pound revenue stream and as such will not be as affected by a delay.

And so it is with most other things I would say. The consumer:company or employee:employer relationship tends to be (on average) weighted heavily to one side. So while I am a self-important egotist, I of course realise that if I was horribly killed today that my employers and the organisation would still keep going and the inconvenience would be mild, at most - even if I was not replaced for some months. But of course, if I did not receive my salary for one month my standard of living would be severely reduced.

And so while I wouldn't tend to use moral terms in these sorts of discussions (when talking about specifics) then I would have to say that on average, my behaviour was "less bad" than a company who are "corrupt" in some sense, because Three were unlikely to have been severely affected by my actions. And then there's the small issue of my attempts to resolve the situation at the time.
Quote:
I know that you think me terribly terribly dull.
Given that I have enjoyed discussions on this forum with yourself, this is not true at all.

My objection to some of your arguments is not because I think you are "a bore". Or that I'm advising people to fight the system. Or that we should all rebel against all rules because I am a crazy drug addicted long hair hippy (well, OK clearly I am, but still). I just have never been comfortable with rules focused morality. The rule says if something is unfair. What says if the rule is fair? Sure, there's consistency - if a particular new rule (say, for a bank account t&c) was unfair then it would be quickly removed/quashed if it was out of step with within their own code of conduct, the FSA's guidance (or whomever), common law generally, the appropriate acts, etc, etc. But how do you evaluate the rules in totality?
Quote:
From my eyes, free of the glare of socialist worker badges and the certainty of a right wingers inhumanity, all i see is rules. The company who have done this to ASG are wrong to have done so. Wrongs must be righted. What you did in your past was also wrong.
He has been wronged, but (and this doesn't change your point one jot obviously) he seems to be dealing with just general incompetence. That's of precious comfort of course.

I don't know anything about the rights and wrongs in this case, but I worked for Telewest briefly as a second job in a cell-centre about 3 years ago. This was before the merger but the entire place was a mess. Staff morale was terrible, internal systems weren't co-ordinated, blah, blah. The training they gave you (fortunately I was a techie, not a customer services type) technically patchy, but when ever they even went near any sort of "What to say in a dispute with customer" they were horribly wrong.

I think that's probably a general rule. When I worked in a different call-centre (for Tiny) six years ago, I'm pretty sure most of the stuff we learnt on "customer rights" was out and out lies. Admittedly Tiny did go into receivership so most calls eventually ended up getting really stupid arguments with customers (while we were still in employment) to waste time. But even with Tiny (who were one of the worst PC companies in the UK) - their formal written polcies weren't that bad. But their entire training (and I suspect this is true everywhere) was to misapply that policy in the favour or never giving a refund (or sending out an engineer, or whatever it is they want to reduce the cost of that customers want). Obviously someone along in the management chain (and I don't mean 'Team Leader' - the majority of whom will be 19 and earning something like £17k) will actually pay attention to a specific complaint, apply policy properly, respond properly, and in general give the refund, and usually write a grovelling apology. Obviously YMMV, they may stand 100% behind what they've said in which case it's a different issue.

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Unread 19 May 2007, 11:35   #24
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

You're so frustratingly apathetic, Dante
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Unread 19 May 2007, 13:21   #25
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

NTL did pretty much the same thing to me, I was paying for the internet for our uni house and a couple of months after I left and cancelled it they kept charging me. I cancelled the direct debit, pulling it out by the roots!

To be fair this only works if you see it early.

The moral of this thread is to check your bank statements every month.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 14:39   #26
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
You're so frustratingly apathetic, Dante
At the moment I'm working 12 hour days to try and ensure as many projects get done as possible at work. I'm fighting a few battles to achieve continuous improvement, all part of the general social struggle towards a better society (etc, etc). Unfortunately, that does mean I've less mental energy to worry about debts under £100 or indeed credits (which exists in another situation) which occurred years ago.

When they do phone up they sometimes say "Well, sir if you don't make a payment it'll damage your credit rating."

I then explain to them I've had my salary (which is average enough) paid into my current bank account for the last two and a half years. And with that bank (with whom I've never had any problems at all over a three/four year sort of period - not a bounced DD or anything like that) they still won't give me a Visa Electron card, which as I understand it is given to children at times. If they can find a way to make it worse then it presently is, then they must let me know immediately. They usually go away at this point.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 14:56   #27
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

You don't even get a Visa Electron, Dante?!? There isnt a possibilty on that card to draw debt, thats why people under 18 get it here (In Norway its impossible to aquire debt before the age of 18).
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Unread 19 May 2007, 22:46   #28
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

The easy availability of firearms in the US has a mitigating affect on the attitude of many corporations.
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Unread 19 May 2007, 23:58   #29
Yahwe
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I just have never been comfortable with rules focused morality. The rule says if something is unfair. What says if the rule is fair? Sure, there's consistency - if a particular new rule (say, for a bank account t&c) was unfair then it would be quickly removed/quashed if it was out of step with within their own code of conduct, the FSA's guidance (or whomever), common law generally, the appropriate acts, etc, etc. But how do you evaluate the rules in totality?
It is not immediately obvious that you are consistent with your own view of what makes a rule 'fair'.

You often talk in moral terms yet the best you can come up with in re my argument was relativity - the equivalent of saying "yes i am wrong as well but the impact of my wrongness is less great".

All of your points are no more than squirming. You would be of value if you obeyed the rules that there are before worrying about the tiny percentage of rules which might need changing.

The inherent problem with your approach is that corruption begets corruption as rule ignoring begets rule ignoring. You are not obviously better than this corrupt/incompetent company over charging ASG.

I only want both of you to obey the rules. Why do you not? Well i can see no end of excuses; but i no longer care.

Change.
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Unread 20 May 2007, 08:19   #30
Dante Hicks
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
You often talk in moral terms yet the best you can come up with in re my argument was relativity - the equivalent of saying "yes i am wrong as well but the impact of my wrongness is less great".
Erm....of course. Did you think I was putting myself forward as some idealised flawless specimen of a human being that all society should be modelled on? Heaven help us, I'm terrible. But fortunately none of that is really relavent as no-one was putting down a dichotomy of acccepting all the status quo vs being exactly like Dante, universally.

And of course these things are all relative. Capitalism has it's faults, but in most senses it's much better than feudalism.
Quote:
The inherent problem with your approach is that corruption begets corruption as rule ignoring begets rule ignoring.
Yes like letting pregnant women through ticket barriers without tickets, for example. It might lead to a society where we never have to hear the words "I was only following orders" which would be a crying shame.
Quote:
I only want both of you to obey the rules. Why do you not?
Which rules in particular were you interested in? Thousands of rules are breeched every day, and to try and assume they're all the same sort of phenomenon isn't very useful. Lots of people fail to fill in tax or benefit forms documents "wrongly". Some may do it because it is complex and they need some support, others may be doing it for personal gain. I do not see how it is helpful to lump all of this together as one thing.

And whose corruption? When?
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Unread 20 May 2007, 12:30   #31
Yahwe
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Re: A.S.G.'s Angry Anti-Corporation Rant #3687

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
You would be of value if you obeyed the rules that there are before worrying about the tiny percentage of rules which might need changing.
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