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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 12:09   #51
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I doubt that even Zhukov is insane enough to cite world war 2 and the Korean war as examples of America 'killing people to spread democracy around the world'.
Then how do you explain them backing up all those dictators with a touch of fascism in them (including saddam & the taliban) that they supported in the 60's-70's-80's just to make sure that the country didn't go the communist way?

They didn't pull the trigger themself, but they handed them the weapons...
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 12:34   #52
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

I doubt that even Zhukov is insane enough to cite world war 2 and the Korean war as examples of America 'killing people to spread democracy around the world'.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 13:36   #53
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Nowhere in my post did i say they were insignificant.
I based my post on casualties because "significance" is a biased way to look at things.
To be fair your post mentioned small and contrasted them in a way to make them appear 'insignificant'.

Quote:
My point was very simple really, if you compare the amounts of people killed between the US & Arab terrorists, then the US is in the lead, even makes the arabs look like choirboys.
It's just the methods the arabs use that are more shocking than the US.
I don't give a shit who is 'in the lead'. I disapprove of both sides actions but I know which side has more interest in ****ing up my shit and it's not the Americans, currently. I'm not sure how being hostile to the americans in the western world benefits anyone, as it's not exactly the best way of persuading people to think differently.

I am not going to debate which party is on the highest moral standing, because they are both fantastically low. I just know that there are groups who want to bomb my country's cities and cause as many casualties as possible. The Americans at least can help, but they need to change their strategy to avoid making it worse. The problem of terrorism is massively overstated and overestimated (although there select groups of people who a very serious and grave threat to our security), which is why I believe a more subtle approach would have been preferable to all out aggression and laws that are woefully inadequate for the citizen and to deal with the terrorist. Although I still agree with the allies' intervention in Afghanistan, because it didn't take a genius to know it was a terrorist base for years before 9/11 given that CNN was interviewing Bin Laden there in the 1990's.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 14:53   #54
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
You just can't compare that to carpet bombing three whole countries*, Lok. Or fuc*ing up a whole region (South America).

Let's just admit it, Osama is a n00bie.






* Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia.
You can't compare a nation-state to an individual but you seem to have done that there.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 17:26   #55
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Your missing the point here. Lockerby is significant for those who got loved ones killed. But the number of people killed is probably the same as one "successfull" bomb-load of a B-52 bomb-drop over Cambodia.

State terrorism influcts casualties on a far much wider scale than non-state terrorism. Lockerby, 9-11, the Madrid bombings and so on is so much more vital to "us", becouse "we" consider ourself more worth than combodians and so forth.

Oops, I just realised that Veedeejem! also replied to the same, and I think he points it out quite well too.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 17:37   #56
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Reading back I'm actually not sure what texan was talking about or what his point was.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 17:56   #57
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

I'm not sure what any of his points were.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 18:27   #58
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm on the side that will get to stand over Texan's mutilated corpse and wank on his face. Join the revolution brothers.
Probably the closest you will ever come to sex with a human partner.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 18:33   #59
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
This answer makes no sence at all tbfh.

Americans 20th century:
WW2: pacific reagon bombed, europe bombed, japan nuked
Korea: bombed another shitload there
Viëtnam: also lots of bombs
Iraq (first gulf war): again with the bombs
Terrorists:
Some small bombing attacks here and there

21st century
Americans:
blow up half iraq & afghanistan
Terrorists:
Small bombings + WTC & Madrid

So whatever he choses, he could be put into both categories, though americans do appear to be bombing & blowing up more shit than the terrorists.

(I guess this post makes me Pro-Terrorist too in your eyes, but I really don't care)
You must be Belgian. Thus we need to know whether you are Flemish or Waloon to determine whether you are on the faggot side or not which helps in classification process.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 18:44   #60
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Or fuc*ing up a whole region (South America).
.

The Spanish had already achieved this goal for us before we were even a country. All we had to do was maintain the shitness of the region so we can't take all the credit as much as we would like to.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 18:56   #61
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Lockerby is significant for those who got loved ones killed. But the number of people killed is probably the same as one "successfull" bomb-load of a B-52 bomb-drop over Cambodia.
I suspect that there were never as many people killed in the Cambodian jungel by a single bomb drop from a single B-52 as were killed in the Lockerby bombing.

Also, by the same logic, American B-52 bombings in Cambodia were of no improtance (except to the families of those killed) when compared to Pol Potl actions.

I would also point out, just for fun, that each individual on this forum has a much greater risk of being blown up by a terrorist bomb during their lifetime than they do of being blown up by the American military.

Ironic isn't it?
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 18:58   #62
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Oh, by-the-way, I think that this thread has the best title I have seen since being on GD!!!!
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 19:01   #63
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

dda has become a moderate Texan :s
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 19:02   #64
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
You must be Belgian. Thus we need to know whether you are Flemish or Waloon to determine whether you are on the faggot side or not which helps in classification process.
Unlike many others, i don't classify myself as Flemish or Walloon, I'm a Belgian who happens to be from Flanders.
Unlike what the media wants you to believe, most of us get along quite good actually. It's usually just the politicians who make a big fuss over stuff like that.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 19:18   #65
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I would also point out, just for fun, that each individual on this forum has a much greater risk of being blown up by a terrorist bomb during their lifetime than they do of being blown up by the American military.
Unless I join the UK armed forces that is.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 21:50   #66
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
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Probably the closest you will ever come to sex with a human partner.
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 21:54   #67
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
You must be Belgian. Thus we need to know whether you are Flemish or Waloon to determine whether you are on the faggot side or not which helps in classification process.
I know, why don't you guys play with your imperialistic war machine in their country next and y'all can police the issue for them. I'm sure they'll thank you in the end!
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Unread 14 Apr 2007, 21:57   #68
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I know, why don't you guys play with your imperialistic war machine in their country next and y'all can police the issue for them. I'm sure they'll thank you in the end!
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 00:52   #69
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I suspect that there were never as many people killed in the Cambodian jungel by a single bomb drop from a single B-52 as were killed in the Lockerby bombing.

Also, by the same logic, American B-52 bombings in Cambodia were of no improtance (except to the families of those killed) when compared to Pol Potl actions.

I would also point out, just for fun, that each individual on this forum has a much greater risk of being blown up by a terrorist bomb during their lifetime than they do of being blown up by the American military.

Ironic isn't it?

You suspect? Oh really.

One B-52 could then do around 27.000 kilograms with bombs in one bombing run. Doing so in a country where most of the population was living in the rural areas, I would say the chances is pretty good. Specially, when you drop 2,756,941 tons of bombs....

And then you add that CIA installed Lon Nol by a coup in 1970, forced Prince Prince Sihanouk to ally Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, thus resulting in the Khmer Rouge coming to power...

You dda, might belive it's ironic that Pol Pot is just another "CIA-project gone bad", abit like Bin Laden you know. Well, kinda.

The really ironic thing is that the US started helping Pol Pot&Co when they fought against the vietnamese only a few years later!

It's a bit like the Iraq-War.
First you supply Iraq with weapons, money, intel, techology to use gas, send rummy down to shake hands. Then there is weapons going to Iran trough CIA (the now famous Contras-Iran scandal) to finance the war against Nicaragua.
Sitting on both sides on the table..

I still maintain that Bin Laden is a n00b.

sources, among others:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-52_St...ss#Vietnam_war
http://www.walrusmagazine.com/print/...-over-cambodia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...dent/81048.stm
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 03:54   #70
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
This becomes even more annoying when quite honestly there are bigger issues the world has to deal with, the redistribution of property not being one of them.
If only this simple thought could ripple across the world and bring peace and merriment to the heaving mass of humanity.
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 04:28   #71
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
i'm on whichever side isn't blowing shit up.
Pretty sure both sides are blowing shit up, and eachother. and people/things that they didnt initially intend to blow up, but did anyway. Good times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
With concensual rape as the only point, I'm not sure if I can place you.
I dont understand how you can have "concensual" rape. Besides, concensual or not, its not rape! - just surprise sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I would also point out, just for fun, that each individual on this forum has a much greater risk of being blown up by a terrorist bomb during their lifetime than they do of being blown up by the American military.
I wouldnt be so sure - the american military does a pretty good job of blowing up their own side fairly often - especially Poms (something that isnt necessarily a bad thing ).
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 04:46   #72
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Your missing the point here.
Who cares as long as bad things don't happen to rich white men
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 10:57   #73
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

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Originally Posted by dda
I would also point out, just for fun, that each individual on this forum has a much greater risk of being blown up by a terrorist bomb during their lifetime than they do of being blown up by the American military.

Ironic isn't it?
I live down south in the UK

for me Irony doesnt come into it, i'm close enough to london, i'm close enough to a major airport, theres a decommissioned nuclear power station just down the coast and i'm fairly close to one of the main oilstorage refinerys in the UK..

with those slight dangers in mind, we made peace in ireland and no longer have issues with the IRA to swap them for several muslim factions who want to bomb us instead.

i'm 38 and in those 38 i've seen about 4 where possibly someone didnt want to drop a terrorist issue bomb on me (ie my side of the country)


and people wonder why i'm sarcastic and ironic and just dont bother to be scared :P
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 05:42   #74
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

I am both American and Christian so in the context of choosing sides that would make me both.

I am pro America and pro terrorist.

Pro America because I live here and support to overall goals of this country.

I am also pro terrorist because I am Christian even though we would prefer to not use the word terrorism as such but words and phrases that make what we do sound better such as "Justified War" and "Mercy Killing." As long as it sounds noble we don't feel so bad about commiting or supporting atrocities. Few Christians talk about saving those poor tormented Muslims. I know my church does not have any missionaries in the middle east or at least none that we will admit to even though visits to Israel are done almost yearly. As long as the terrorist acts do not involve suicide bombing we Christians seem to be quite content with the way things are handled.

Shame really because we really should be urging our leaders to seek peaceful solutions to eliminate the bloodshed.
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 06:10   #75
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

We could always surrender and let the radical islamists have our country and whatever else they might want. However, I suspect it wouldn't decrease the bloodshed, just whose blood was being shed.
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 08:32   #76
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

I'll be on whatever side will have me. I have acceptance problems.

Sorry if the conversation already evolved past the "who's on who's side"
I hope this won't affect your choises of having me on your side! Whatever side that may be!
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 08:39   #77
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

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Originally Posted by dda
We could always surrender and let the radical islamists have our country.
I'm not sure what Bin Laden and Co's current list of demands are, but originally wasn't their theoretical goal the removal of American / Western troops from what they consider the Holy Land. While they are probably bent on some notion of world domination, I doubt conquering the America is on their immediate horizon.
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 13:28   #78
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

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Originally Posted by dda
We could always surrender and let the radical islamists have our country and whatever else they might want. However, I suspect it wouldn't decrease the bloodshed, just whose blood was being shed.
I see you've been reading ahead this term.
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 15:30   #79
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
*if i'm right in thinking you believe anyone should be able to live wherever they want (or was that with a prerequisite of a radically different system of governance? i can't remember)
It depends on how the organisation of land is handled, as "anywhere you want" could be interpreted to be where someone else currently lives in a very literal sense. But as a general principle, I'm not in favour of immigration restrictions per se - if capital can move freely why can't labour, etc.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suppose that a group of people might choose to have a collective space which they lived on together and such a group might want some sort of privacy.

So maybe you could theoretically have an Amish part of town where only Amish are allowed to live, but that sort of issue would need to be carefully handled. Certainly I would assume exclusionary nation states would be dead, but you might have much smaller organisational units. How land issues would be settled would be up to people involved tbh and the needs/aspirations of one set of individuals would need to be balanced against another. That's a management issue though, not really a matter of ideology.

There is an underlying presumption though on how shit people might be to each other, and that all this occurs in a certain level of affluence and equality.

As for how things are managed now, I'm in favour of reducing the oppressive nature of the immigration system, abolishing restrictions on work, blah, blah, blah - but if imperialism promoted more even development (and stopped ****ing up bits of the planets generally) there'd be less forced migration overall.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 00:00   #80
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
I was thinking more about the issue of citizenship/right to vote, not so much the individual's right to work. For instance, if America were to let anyone who wanted it, citizenship, would you not be (or would you not expect rational, secular americans to be) worried about less 'progressive' ideas getting a stronger foothold?
1. Voting tends to follow economic activity after a given period (denying the vote to children of people who are working becomes tricky in most liberal states) - so it's just a matter of time. Having said that, trying to take over a society through immigration and the ballot box is a pretty slow process - due to the way communities tend to be distributed and the low level of political involvement from immigrants their political power rarely reflects the demographics. Non-white MPs represent 2.5% of UK MPs (or something like that) - the non-white populaiton represents something like 8 or 9%. The US is even more imbalanced from what I can recall of the ethnic make-up of the Senate.

2. In most cases I would assume that immigration would tend to shape immigrants views much faster than immigrants shape the host country. There are exceptions, but on the whole immigrants are faced with an overwhelmingly dominant culture which tends to wear most people down. Entrenched communities might be able to resist this assimiliation but on the whole a lot of Muslims in the UK take Sunday's off work, speak English, watch football, and a good number of them sell alcohol even if they don't drink it. Obviously this will depend on the numbers of immigrants at any one time, how they are located, their economic links to home countries, etc.

3. In most cases, it's the children of immigrants (or their children) who tend to be more "reactionary" (rediscovering their roots, etc). Obviously not every individual is the same, and not every immigrant community is the same, but on the whole the first or second generation tend to be quite pro-integration in some sense (encouraging their children to learn the houst countries language, do well in school, that sort of thing). At least one friend of mine barely speaks his parents native language whch presumably was a deliberate choice on their behalf.

Most of those involved in the 7/7 bombings were all British citizens raised in Britain weren't they? It's also not clear whether (to take the British example) the youth who are rejecting western values are being "reactionary" per se - they might be signing up to dead-end philosophies but they seem to be doing so as a radical gesture - especially against British and American imperialism. I appreciate the difference is probably academic if you're on the wrong end of a jihad though.

But given the lack of a credible left, I don't blame people mad at imperialism politics for joining the only force force who could credibly be said to be actively and internationally resisting the United States. Sure, Noam Chomsky has written some withering articles, and there's plenty of armchair leftists out there telling it like it is (sup) but **** it - Bin Laden and co are the only ones with the guts (and ability) to smash a ****ing plane against one of the most important buildings in the US. Fifty years of American hegemony and it's a guy in a cave who lands the first punch on the US since WW2. I'm surprised Bin Laden doesn't have more recruits tbh.
Quote:
This is based on the assumption that there are a lot of fundamentalist* foreigners wanting into Britain/America.
Well, there are people who want to move from poorer countries to richer countries. They may not really want to for cultural reasons and indeed a lot of immigrants tend to assume they'll return home (with untold riches of course). But of course economics is a powerful driver, and once you're in London you realise how hard it is to send money home, live a decent life and save up for a farm on Bangladesh. So they stay.

Now the countries which poor people tend to come form are (on average) more religious. It's probable that it's actually (on average) the less religious (or at least less conservative) people who migrate. But someone in the less religious half of Pakistan's population will pretty much automatically be in the most 10% of Britain's populaiton. Therefore, irrespective of anything to do with fundamentalism, economic migration will tend to increase the average religiousity of wealthy nations (at least in the short-term).

In either case, the easiest cure for religion is economic development, education and reasonableness. Both domestically and internationally.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 08:04   #81
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Exclamation Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
This is based on the assumption that there are a lot of fundamentalist* foreigners wanting into Britain/America. An assumption that might be wrong, especially when the reasons normally given for restricting immigration (as far as i'm aware) is focused more on whether or not we need them for work as opposed to how their "culture" or beliefs may affect the country adopting them.
I don't care about an immigrant's culture or beliefs (although if one of their beliefs is that the world owes them a living then I'd suggest they try another world--or at least a different part of this one). Basically, the only people I'd exclude would be:
  • Those who are unable or unwilling to work (no free lunch here)
  • Those who have a history of criminal or antisocial behavior (we have plenty of criminals and nutjobs already, thanks)
  • Those who have serious communicable diseases (AIDS, TB, Bird flu, etc. no free health care here either--try Canada or Europe)
  • Terrorists ('nuff said)
Other than that, welcome aboard! You don't want to assimilate? Fine with me. You don't want to learn English? Not my problem. You want to impose your religious/socialist/utopian vision of the world on me? Get in line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
1. Voting tends to follow economic activity after a given period (denying the vote to children of people who are working becomes tricky in most liberal states) - so it's just a matter of time. Having said that, trying to take over a society through immigration and the ballot box is a pretty slow process - due to the way communities tend to be distributed and the low level of political involvement from immigrants their political power rarely reflects the demographics. Non-white MPs represent 2.5% of UK MPs (or something like that) - the non-white populaiton represents something like 8 or 9%. The US is even more imbalanced from what I can recall of the ethnic make-up of the Senate.
I think looking at the Senate to get an accurate picture of immigrant representation in the US is rather odd. The Senate is, by design, far less democratic than the House of Representatives (I imagine it'd be a bit like looking at immigrant representation in the House of Lords). If you're serious you should look at the House of Representatives where you'll find 71 minorities (Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Pacific Islanders (mostly Hawaiians) and Native Americans) or about 16% of the House. Of those groups, Hispanics have the largest numbers of immigrants (most blacks, Pacific Islanders and Native Americans in the US have been here for a long time and whatever political power they do or don't have has little to do with immigration policies). Even among Hispanics, many have been here for several generations. Basically, the whole non-white == immigrant paradigm doesn't work very well in the US.

That said, Hispanics probably are under-represented in the US political system in some sense. In part, this is because a lot of them are here illegally and can't vote and many who are citizens don't vote. Nonetheless, in California for example, where Hispanics make up about 30% of the population, they have 22% of the seats in the state legislature; so they're not doing too badly at all by that measure.

However, I don't care for the whole identity politics meme. The idea that various ethnic/racial/religious groups can only be (legitimately) represented by members of their own group only serves to promote groupthink and tends to balkanize political minorities. Voters would usually be better served by making common cause with candidates/parties on issues that are important to them rather than trying (and often failing) to elect candidates from their own group. Representative democracy has enough problems as it is.
Quote:
But given the lack of a credible left, I don't blame people mad at imperialism politics for joining the only force force who could credibly be said to be actively and internationally resisting the United States. Sure, Noam Chomsky has written some withering articles, and there's plenty of armchair leftists out there telling it like it is (sup) but **** it - Bin Laden and co are the only ones with the guts (and ability) to smash a ****ing plane against one of the most important buildings in the US. Fifty years of American hegemony and it's a guy in a cave who lands the first punch on the US since WW2. I'm surprised Bin Laden doesn't have more recruits tbh.
I suspect nothing surprises an armchair leftist more than how few will actually do something for the cause. It just doesn't seem fair.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:42   #82
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I suspect nothing surprises an armchair leftist more than how few will actually do something for the cause. It just doesn't seem fair.
Hey, you think being this self-righteous happens on it's own? It takes hours of pain staking effort I'll have you know.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 16:28   #83
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

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Originally Posted by furball
And there's the proof you know nothing, cancer boy will undoubtedly die first.
I laughed out loud.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 00:31   #84
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Re: GD Axis of Evil

why are we humouring this paranoid delusion of 'sides'?

there are no 'sides' there is only america. An america without an enemy or anyone to hate and therefore no concept to unify themselves against.

for 200 years the only way political control has been exerted over that landmass is through utilising the unifying power of fear. I don't see the value of humouring them. they need to pretend that there is 'an enemy' that there is 'somebody trying to beat them'. but the fact is that there is no such person/peoples.

OF COURSE americans are going to buy this propaganda - they pretty much have to.

But let them do it amongst themselves. I'm not tolerating this utter rubbish; I'm British, we're not as rich as we could be and frankly we ought to be far more busy sorting out our own issues than pandering to american childishness.

If texan wants to spout this nonesense we have a perfectly well functioning Roleplaying forum for him.
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