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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 14:07   #1
Hebdomad
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Are people in need of help or a smack?

In case you're unaware, Blair and Brown have endorsed a new welfare reform, and as it's supported by the conservatives it's more than likely to become law. Basically, lone parents have to start looking for work once their children become 12 instead of 16. If they fail to do so their lone parents benefit is reduced.

There's also a measure where local organisations in the voluntary and private sector fight for contacts to get the long-term sick, disabled and those out of work for more than a year back into work. This means JobCentrePlus only concentrates on those who've been out of work for less than a year, basically.

However, I'm more interested in the first point. As far as I'm concerned, this is more of an economic than social reform. But what interests me is the assumption you need to force lone parents to return to work: the assumption they're too lazy to do so on their own accord so monetary threats are needed.

This is a pessimistic view of society. Obviously society isn't solely lazy or solely begging for work, but a policy needs to be established that favours one of these perspectives, that people need to be helped or threatened into work.

So, in your opinion, does policy need to be weighted towards threats or aid?
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 14:27   #2
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

I'm not english, but I do agree that there are too many people only looking for work in a half arsed manner. Atleast where I live (in Belgium) it seems to be a problem.

The fact that lone parents need to work is more than normal imo, they need to take care of themselves and their children. Using it as an excuse to sit at home while the children go to school is just stupid and doesn't reflect well on the children either imo. Some children might think "my dad doesn't have to work so I don't need to do well in school/go to school, he seems to manage just fine!"

Overhere we have people dropping out of school or not continueing to higher education but not willing to take the jobs they are offered. They want to slack through school and then go do a job where they can slack aswell, or what they consider a dreamjob. You should study so you can do whatever job you want imo, if you don't study then you should accept whatever job that's offered to you.

So, in my opinion, yeah those people not wanting to work and using whichever excuse they have not to do so should be forced to work using these sorts of actions.

ps. Ofcourse this counts for the problematic regarding to work in Belgium, might not apply to Brittain :/
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 16:06   #3
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Most people do not want to be on benefits in the strictest sense (the income is low, there is a stigma attached, you have to regularly visit the benefits offices and be patronised, etc). However,

i) The lower end of the employment market can be shit. This is where lone parents often start (or end up), given their gap in employment histories and in some cases lack of formal qualifications. These positions are often pretty terrible. I do not mean no employment is available, but that it is poorly paid, unsecure and you will be treated like shit. Working in retail/McDonalds/whatever at near-minimum wage maybe "OK" if you are a student living with your parents, but if it is a primary source of income for your family then it is entirely different.

ii) The welfare benefits system is structured so if you take measures to improve yourself (e.g. increasing your income) assistance is taken away far too quickly. There has been some improvement in this area (run off periods for lone parents) but it's not enough. Housing benefit is a particular bad example of this phenomenon - and it can lead to situations where if you were to get a job earning £180 a week, you'd end up being about £5-£10 better off (or even worse off, in extreme cases).

I know somebody who is a single parent with three kids and works as a teaching assistant (part-time I think). Her financial situation is a bit complex (alimony, working-family tax credits, etc) but basically she'd only be marginally worse off if she quit her job. So she will. Why not? It's stressful to her, and she will be able to spend more time with her kids. Isn't this what the conservatives (small c) want?

In summary : I don't think it's a matter of pessimism or optimism. If my work wrote to me and said I would only be 1% worse off I didn't go to work, I might consider not bother going in - why not? Fortunately I happen to enjoy my work, but if you're at the lower end of the job market this might not be the case.

A better system would be to allow people to build up a certain (larger) amount of income / savings without threatening their incomes. In the case of people in social housing, this could perhaps be achieved through some sort of equity build-up in their home, sort of like the Homebuy schems the government is currently promoting.*

In terms of support - it depends. You're talking about people who may not have worked (at all) for 12 years. That might be pretty scary. I was terrified of starting work because I don't like looking a fool (despite many posts to the contrary) and I'd obviously be a noob regardless of where I went. More generally, how many threads / discussions do we have here (and elsewhere) where people want help writing CVs, etc because they've never done it. It might not be much different for someone whose just not done it in a while, except they probably don't have a bunch of internet supremo's to help them, but a demoralised underpaid bunch of civil servants in Benefits Agency instead. I know which I'd prefer to help me out.

Soundbite alert : Not threats or aid, but opportunity.

*(I am not advocating property ownership here, by the way, the share would be more symbolic than anything else, but could certainly be tied to the value of the property / property indices generally)
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 16:34   #4
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Why is it that lone parents have a lack of formal qualifications? Yeah sure they have a period of unemployement where they had to take care of their kids fulltime (altho my parents both worked and only had a few months off, throwing me with a "daymother" during the days), but I can't really make the connection between being a lone parents and having a lack of formal qualifications.
I'm not sure about this as I'm barely a year on the "workmarket", but I don't think many employers would make a huge deal about you taking a few years off to deal with your kid and then go work (fulltime) with good/decent qualifications either.
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 16:35   #5
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

There has been a number of reforms in western europe recently, when it comes to different sorts of welfare. Anyone remember the pension reforms, who "suddenly" became so all-important? Even in Norway, with our massive oil-fund, low unemployment, zero federal debt and relativly high number of children beeing born, there was a push for a new pension reform.

These kinds of labor reforms will be pushed trough, not becouse they will help solve the real problems, but to save money for the government and to help keep the cost of labour down.

· Responsibility for getting long-term unemployed into work to be devolved to voluntary and private sector

And this is just like saying "HERE IS A NEW RESERVE ARMY OF PEOPLE YOU CAN TREAT LIKE SHIT AND PAY MINIMUM WAGE TOO".

Oh, and get subsidies too!
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 17:01   #6
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Why is it that lone parents have a lack of formal qualifications?
Not all of them obviously, but some interrupted their education to have kids in the first place and others are just more likely to fall into that category. Not a majority, but a disproportionately high number.

As for "Well, employers wouldn't care" I'm pretty sure (irrespective of the law) do keep in mind what a "burden" it is employing someone who is a lone parent. If the kid is sick, the person will probably be late, or take time off. If their babysitter is ill, they will take time off, etc, etc.

Either way, I'm pretty sure if you walked into an interview and said "I've not worked for 12 years" then that might count against me.

Also, a big issue which I forgot to mention is the very high cost of childcare which is a major barrier to re-entering the job market.
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 17:55   #7
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/econo...027456,00.html
and
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/econo...026613,00.html

And I belived that The Guardian was centre-left
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 18:25   #8
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Whats the legal age to leave a child home alone in the UK ?

sure they are at school most of the year but school holidays will impact on this, are the government going to create subsidised school holiday clubs for the kids of single parents or wil they have to take at least 10 weeks a year off their poorly paid jobs because that job doesnt pay enough for that many weeks of holiday club, personally i cant see any employer all being happy about that, especially in the retail sector and one of those school holidays being at christmas.
or do the government want 12 year olds sat home or walking the streets with no supervision ? I'm sure every peodo in the UK is looking forward to this new idea.
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 18:37   #9
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
However, I'm more interested in the first point. As far as I'm concerned, this is more of an economic than social reform. But what interests me is the assumption you need to force lone parents to return to work: the assumption they're too lazy to do so on their own accord so monetary threats are needed.
This is one of the most bizarre arguments I've heard. Noone is being forced to do anything here, they're just having support cut off at an earlier date. If you really wanted to know what % of people continued to receive support while their child was between 12-16 I'm sure there's statistics available somewhere.

edit: I'm not even saying this in a pro/anti-benefits sense, it just seems like a really strange way of looking at whats happening.
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 23:59   #10
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

A friend of mine was a teacher at an inner-city school. Most of the students were from poor families living on aid. One day my friend told a student he should pay more attention for some day he would want to have a job.

The entire class began laughing and most of them voiced opinions of the general nature "Why would I want to get a job? I'll just have a baby and get on aid and the government will take care of me." Many of these children were third generation welfare.

Many of these children were also prone to staying out of school, doing little of the require work at school and could care less if they got bad grades. They had parents who, though they were paid to take care of their children, spent most of their day drinking and doing drugs and had no idea where their children were.

There have also been a number of incidents where parents taught their children how to do bad on tests so that they would qualify for additional benefits for "disabled" children.

The fact that people on benefits have to show up occasionally to fill out forms for their continued benefits isn't too onerous. Figure out what their benefits are and what they have to do to get those benefits and divide to get an hourly rate for the time they have to spend filling out the forms. I know in California the hourly would be far above that which I get.

There should be rewards for those who get off of benfits of whatever nature. There needs to be a carrot as well as a stick. However, it is difficult to figure out how to structure things in such away that it doesn't diminish and marginalize those who do work.

There was a time when many people were "too proud" to accept charity from government or private sources. Society, to a great extent, has overcome this attitude. It is now more prevelant to feel that they are "owed" something just because they exist.

It is a thorny problem, but I believe that it has become clear over the last 40 years, in the US at least, that what we have been doing has been counter productive. Maintaining welfare rolls is a sure fire way of establishing and maintaining a permanent underclass. A group which can be mined for political gold in oh so many ways.

The DDA plan would include the following philosophy:

Except for those individuals who are truly damaged to the point that they are not capable of working,

Aid should be certain.

It should be short term

and

Getting off of aid should be rewarded while staying on over long periods of time should be discouraged by the progressive withdrawl of benefits.
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 00:42   #11
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Or you could just have a society that doesnt create a permanent underclass!
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 01:29   #12
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

That is the aim. Getting people off of aid is the first step.
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 08:38   #13
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

I'm not quite sure what's going on in this thread but would some form of death-clock be of any use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
However, I'm more interested in the first point. As far as I'm concerned, this is more of an economic than social reform. But what interests me is the assumption you need to force lone parents to return to work: the assumption they're too lazy to do so on their own accord so monetary threats are needed.
I don't think it's that they're too lazy to return to work. It's more that raising a child as a lone parent is a very difficult process. Of course no doubt in another ten years we'll all be gnashing our teeth despairing at the fact that children don't respect their parents or parents are never around enough for their teenage offspring or that there's a young man in a hoodie on the corner of my road and I think he might be selling drugs but maybe he just got locked out of his house because he forgot his keys and his mum is working 60 hours a week in two different jobs so she can pay all the bills and still provide her son with a equivalent standard of living to his peers. It's probably the drugs though. ****ing government, they should do something about this!
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 08:40   #14
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

I was having a bit of a booze with my mates down in berkshire in a place called the pelican inn and we thought what'd really solve the problem would be to have a system that topped up wages in proportion to the price of a gallon loaf...
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 08:43   #15
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

They raised the price of a pint in Ireland the other day so I'm pretty sure fianna fail are getting voted out in the general election.
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 16:31   #16
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Soundbite alert : Not threats or aid, but opportunity.
But you need to give people the opportunity, so governmental aid is needed. I should have probably used 'help' instead of 'aid' in retrospect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This is one of the most bizarre arguments I've heard. Noone is being forced to do anything here, they're just having support cut off at an earlier date. If you really wanted to know what % of people continued to receive support while their child was between 12-16 I'm sure there's statistics available somewhere.
I, perhaps naively, assumed: reduction of money equals greater need for money equals need of a job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaybeegee
I don't think it's that they're too lazy to return to work. It's more that raising a child as a lone parent is a very difficult process.
I'll file that in my 'aid/help' category then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Communism
These kinds of labor reforms will be pushed trough, not becouse they will help solve the real problems, but to save money for the government and to help keep the cost of labour down.
Hey I said it was an economic reform comrade!
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 18:12   #17
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I was having a bit of a booze with my mates down in berkshire in a place called the pelican inn and we thought what'd really solve the problem would be to have a system that topped up wages in proportion to the price of a gallon loaf...
aside the gallon loaf remark ..

theres tax credits.. while your child is at school, once it leaves and you work less than 33 hours .. you get nothing!

so .. basically if you work from 16 hours to 32 hours a week you can get no money from the government at all
but you can get housing and council tax benefit, so you can be poor but not homeless !
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 18:37   #18
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

I just told my mom that in the U.K. lone parents got a benefit so they shouldn't have to work. She asked me if I was serious, when I said "yeah" she said they're insane.
Just pointing out the view from a mother outside the U.K., where receiving such a benefit sounds crazy. So limiting it to 12 years instead of 16 years is certainly better than not getting it at all. If it was up to me they'd only get it for 4 years, so the gap in their work experience doesn't get too big.
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 18:58   #19
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

what country are you from?
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Unread 7 Mar 2007, 19:57   #20
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
How breathtakingly unoriginal and simplistic.
I am sorry, but the thread title seemed to be asking for neither an original or a complicated answer.

The frame work for the DDA plan I will state even more simply and even less original.

"Carrot AND stick."

Because an idea is simple and unoriginal does not mean that it isn't a good place to start.

Fuzzy headed original, complicated policies have caused more problems than they have solved.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 08:48   #21
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
aside the gallon loaf remark ..

theres tax credits.. while your child is at school, once it leaves and you work less than 33 hours .. you get nothing!

so .. basically if you work from 16 hours to 32 hours a week you can get no money from the government at all
but you can get housing and council tax benefit, so you can be poor but not homeless !
I was deliberately referencing the speenhamland system.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 19:34   #22
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
I just told my mom that in the U.K. lone parents got a benefit so they shouldn't have to work. She asked me if I was serious, when I said "yeah" she said they're insane.
I'm not sure where your mother comes from, but it's probable there is some kind of subsidy paid somewhere along the lines. Britain is just comfortable with (certain groups) receiving benefits directly which enables them to have a choice in how they run their lives (where this is feasible). For all my dislike of the British state, this is hardly a terrible premise.

Children being born costs money. People are removed from the labour force. Children require care. The argument is simply where and how these things are paid for and by who, and how it can all operate to ensure no-one starves or neglects their kids.

You could make childcare cheaper than it currently is which would mean it would be a lot easier to get back into work, and indirectly subsidise employers in the process. But it would still cost money.

In Britain there is a (sort of) deregulated market which does provide childcare for quite a lot of children - this is usually termed "childminders". In the vast majority of cases however, childminders are receiving some kind of benefits themselves and it seems this sort of low-levelfraud is semi-tolerated by the benefits agencies. Even childminders are still regulated though, especially through council lists and the like.

It's difficult to have deregulated enterprises looking after societies most vulnerable members unsupervised and as such we have regulation and subsidy instead. Besides, most industrialised societies are trying to get more people to have kids now
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:00   #23
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

f#ck them lazy f#ckers...

They have to go to work instead of sitting home and waiting for their kid to come back home from school. what a load of sh!t.

Remember, you, taxpayers, pay for those worthless peoples on government (or whatever) aid. You pay for them to chill, lay back, and watch them checks to come in. While they are perfectly capable of working (and this rant only applies to those who CAN work).

I was raised by single mother who was working 12 hours a day since age 9. I kinda managed to learn how to cook and clean after myself. its a good thing to bring up self-dependancy in a child. and 12 being too old for that, too.
Sitting home untill your child can go to work and support your useless ass is a fail-safe mechanism that makes people sit on aid forever untill they can leech off someone else.

Now cry me a river, all them single parents. deal with life as it comes. You have it harder them your traditional couple of parents, but you have the responcibility to your child, the society, and your goddeam self not to be useless piece of shit that does nothing productive with their time except "raising their child" on the money that others work hard to provide for them.

its like recieving child support from entire ****ing country.

my 2c. Sorry if its too much hate. But here, in US, government aid gets spent like shit and has to be regulated better. People live their life without lifting a finger. And only thing they accomplish is have alot of (if that) kids (and trust me, getting a kid is the easy part.)

Tough cookie, but if u dont work, you dont reap any results. Including food and rent money, and go out to live on the street. Thats life for you, and just because yuo have a child, it does not give you any special status. Most people at some point of their life have children. ****ing bums

/rant

P.S.: sorry if i offended someone, its less personal and more of a general rant
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:38   #24
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
I was raised by single mother who was working 12 hours a day since age 9
That settles it then. No working single mothers!
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 21:17   #25
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

hm... since my age 9... should have clarified
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 22:17   #26
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
what country are you from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure where your mother comes from, but it's probable there is some kind of subsidy paid somewhere along the lines. Britain is just comfortable with (certain groups) receiving benefits directly which enables them to have a choice in how they run their lives (where this is feasible). For all my dislike of the British state, this is hardly a terrible premise.

Children being born costs money. People are removed from the labour force. Children require care. The argument is simply where and how these things are paid for and by who, and how it can all operate to ensure no-one starves or neglects their kids.

You could make childcare cheaper than it currently is which would mean it would be a lot easier to get back into work, and indirectly subsidise employers in the process. But it would still cost money.

In Britain there is a (sort of) deregulated market which does provide childcare for quite a lot of children - this is usually termed "childminders". In the vast majority of cases however, childminders are receiving some kind of benefits themselves and it seems this sort of low-levelfraud is semi-tolerated by the benefits agencies. Even childminders are still regulated though, especially through council lists and the like.

It's difficult to have deregulated enterprises looking after societies most vulnerable members unsupervised and as such we have regulation and subsidy instead. Besides, most industrialised societies are trying to get more people to have kids now
I'm from Belgium. If I remember correctly there is a benefit calculated into the pay you receive for working. So single parents get their benefit as they should, but they also have to work for it (as they should).
Atleast that's how I think it works overhere.. if it doesn't then it's how it should work \o/
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 23:15   #27
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
You pay for them to chill, lay back, and watch them checks to come in.
It's OK, the government pays most benefits straight into people's bank accounts now, so they don't need to worry about waiting for the cheque.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 11:34   #28
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I was deliberately referencing the speenhamland system.

not heard of it ..

my point was that they have systems in place to encourage people back to work.. which have a HUGE gap in them.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 20:28   #29
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Re: Are people in need of help or a smack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
not heard of it ..

my point was that they have systems in place to encourage people back to work.. which have a HUGE gap in them.
which was WHY i referenced the speenhamland system.

(P.S. I know that you happen to not be very well educated. However the thing to do id to do something about it - there is no shortage of resources. Then you'd be able to stop pointing out that you aren't very well educated.)
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