Planetarion Forums - For the love of God, stop giving us resources

ComradeRob · 15 Mar 2006, 11:48

Giving out resources every time the ticker stops (which seems to be every couple of days at the moment) is a monumentally bad idea.

It increases the size of fleets, which makes everyone a worse target. This makes it harder for everyone to attack (the temporary increase in your own fleet size is negated by the consistently higher losses you'll receive because everyone else has a bigger fleet too).

It's a well-known and uncontroversial fact that the game stagnates as time goes on because fleets get bigger relative to roid counts. Giving out resources accelerates this process. If PA team must give something out, roids would be far better.

wakey · 15 Mar 2006, 11:54

Atleast this time its a little more realistic and fair with it being based on what we would make in the period rather than a random amount.

However I do agree with Rob, I'm not sure it stagnates the game long term but it certainly does for 24 hours afterwards because any attack you make in that period will see the planet using their resources to defend against you without needing much if any defence.

No-one loses out when it rollsback so we dont need compensated

furball · 15 Mar 2006, 12:05

I agree. All decent targets now have a shed-load of resources to spend on stopping attackers. It beats handing out a fixed amount, but it still sucks

WeaponX · 15 Mar 2006, 12:52

they did give resources according to asteroid income this time - which is pretty fair in my eyes finally

Kargool · 15 Mar 2006, 12:54

Omg, yes, all the players got the expected resources from 12 ticks as they would have gotten if this hadnt occured! And what a tragedy especially for Ascendancy's xp players who now has to enter even more resources into the galfund so their value stays down. Heads should roll because of this. /irony

JonnyBGood · 15 Mar 2006, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kargool

Omg, yes, all the players got the expected resources from 12 ticks as they would have gotten if this hadnt occured! And what a tragedy especially for Ascendancy's xp players who now has to enter even more resources into the galfund so their value stays down. Heads should roll because of this. /irony

Fixing things so that one part of the game happened while another part doesn't is a bad idea. This will not accurately reflect the course of the game.

Kargool · 15 Mar 2006, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Fixing things so that one part of the game happened while another part doesn't is a bad idea. This will not accurately reflect the course of the game.

I dont really see the big problem in this. Some people would have gotten less, some would have gotten more, in the big picture it all evens out. Sad that we wont have any extra time since there is now two nights without attacks and that may effect the alliance rankings but the resources part isnt a very big problem.

JonnyBGood · 15 Mar 2006, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kargool

in the big picture it all evens out.

I think you just missed the entire point of the game dude.

Pilatus · 15 Mar 2006, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kargool

I dont really see the big problem in this. Some people would have gotten less, some would have gotten more, in the big picture it all evens out.

It don't even out. It all dephend on how lucky you were with the roids you had when the rollback happened. Tbh, i'm just glad this didn't happen a few days earlier when i had around 200 roids

But i don't think ppl who got waved bad yesterday will be happy, after probably getting their fleets cancelled because of a rollback, and in addition getting a penalty for having few roids atm.

What annoys me the most, is how pointless a compansation like this is in the first place.

furball · 15 Mar 2006, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilatus

It don't even out. It all dephend on how lucky you were with the roids you had when the rollback happened. Tbh, i'm just glad this didn't happen a few days earlier when i had around 200 roids

But i don't think ppl who got waved bad yesterday will be happy, after probably getting their fleets cancelled because of a rollback, and in addition getting a penalty for having few roids atm.

What annoys me the most, is how pointless a compansation like this is in the first place.

Yesterday before any fleets landed on me: 1000 roids

Today as I post: 100 roids, targets now have lots of resources to spend on a few anti-my fleet ships.

My planet is probably worst-case scenario for this. But I don't really care, it's just misfortune and there's no point letting that get the upper hand. Better to just get on with things.

paolo · 15 Mar 2006, 14:26

We could've been better of with an increase in roids, although the xp whores would be the ones benifitting most.

Xp whores are a bad thing, but the positive thing about them is the increase in roid circulation. Back in the old days, bigger players had all the roids and around this time the big planets would have around 8k roids or so. Our Xp feckers steal roids of most big planets and keep their roids down. Small players steal roids of xp whores, bigger players of those players, etc.
This process keeps the roid flow going and gives the smaller players some fun by actually being able to get more than 100 roids per fleet. Roid circulation is important to keep the game alive and avoid stagnation.
The only problem this round would be too strong xans, but that's an other discussion.

So to make the round even more fun, give us more roids.

JonnyBGood · 15 Mar 2006, 14:58

The biggest planets aren't actually hit by xp whores anymore, the value differences are just pointlessly big.

Tomkat · 15 Mar 2006, 15:01

I don't like the fact that for the SECOND time in a few days, I'll be launching on targets who potentially could build ships to kill all of mine.

That's my biggest complaint with this.

Resources don't really appease anyone - it'd be easier to just rollback and carry on as normal.

Nadar · 15 Mar 2006, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kargool

Omg, yes, all the players got the expected resources from 12 ticks as they would have gotten if this hadnt occured! And what a tragedy especially for Ascendancy's xp players who now has to enter even more resources into the galfund so their value stays down. Heads should roll because of this. /irony

They get resources but FLEETS ARE RECALLED! You can't pick only one. If "as if it hadn't occured" should have counted, then the fleets would still be going.

ComradeRob · 15 Mar 2006, 15:58

I don't think it's a blatant attempt at stopping XP whores.

Before someone accuses me of bias, I've posted on this subject numerous times before, in rounds when I was a value-based player:

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...22&postcount=5
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...64&postcount=4
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...49&postcount=1

Heh, two of those are almost 3 years old. The more things change, the more they stay the same

Kjeldoran · 15 Mar 2006, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

Giving out resources every time the ticker stops (which seems to be every couple of days at the moment) is a monumentally bad idea.

It increases the size of fleets, which makes everyone a worse target. This makes it harder for everyone to attack (the temporary increase in your own fleet size is negated by the consistently higher losses you'll receive because everyone else has a bigger fleet too).

It's a well-known and uncontroversial fact that the game stagnates as time goes on because fleets get bigger relative to roid counts. Giving out resources accelerates this process. If PA team must give something out, roids would be far better.

I, as a well balanced XAN, will have no problem roiding whatsoever Terran, even if you give him double or triple amount of resources that they just dealt out

JonnyBGood · 15 Mar 2006, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

I, as a well balanced XAN, will have no problem roiding whatsoever Terran, even if you give him double or triple amount of resources that they just dealt out

The medal's in the post.

Kjeldoran · 15 Mar 2006, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The medal's in the post.

I'd like to thank ....

Phil^ · 15 Mar 2006, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by idimmu

This is a blatant attempt to inconvenience XP whores. Value whores need roids and ticks in order to increase in value, but XP whores need to keep attacking all the time constantly.

By giving out resources the value whores can grow as if no time was lost at all and they also don't have the inconveniance of losing roids to deal with, whilst the number of available attacking ticks for XP whores is reduced significantly disadvantaging them.

'omg its a conspiracy'

just donate the res you get to others who arent playing for xp and go for the similarly sized targets as before.

ps - its not as if the game admins deliberately make the game break you know. its not in their interest to

Banned · 15 Mar 2006, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

'omg its a conspiracy'

just donate the res you get to others who arent playing for xp and go for the similarly sized targets as before.

OMG irony on the internet.

jerome · 15 Mar 2006, 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

'omg its a conspiracy'

just donate the res you get to others who arent playing for xp and go for the similarly sized targets as before.

stop being an idiot and read rob's posts thoroughly.

furball · 15 Mar 2006, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

'omg its a conspiracy'

just donate the res you get to others who arent playing for xp and go for the similarly sized targets as before.

OMG OMG OMG OMG

Minister of Development (MoD)
-Change Message From Commanders.
-Vote in exile votes.
-Control which resources can and can not be traded in the galaxy fund.
-Donate resources to all those below the "average" score.
The average score is weighted towards paid accounts, and worked out by using this formula:
((total score of paid planets in galaxy) * 2 + (total score of free planets in galaxy)) / total number of planets in galaxy.

Phil^ · 15 Mar 2006, 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome

stop being an idiot and read rob's posts thoroughly.

i wasnt posting to rob, infact it was to idimmu with his "its a blatant attempt to inconveniance xp whores".

Probably should have quoted him but cba at the time - amended orig post to clarify for you.

yes furball, i know the limitations for who the mod can donate to - but other then the gal fund already being filled in its entirety theres nothing stopping them just dumping it in there as it is
edit : and if they wanted to get rid of res completely without donating it somewhere it can do some good they could just keep interchanging its types with the universe, losing 25% each time

noah02 · 15 Mar 2006, 17:57

Yes stop giving xp whores more resources because then 2 more ppl can attack them.

Roids are nicer btw.

Banned · 15 Mar 2006, 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

edit : and if they wanted to get rid of res completely without donating it somewhere it can do some good they could just keep interchanging its types with the universe, losing 25% each time

A good XP player won't want the money to disappear. The best way to handle it is to use the resource/tick trick to hide it whenever you land. That way you can use the resources to land more expensive attacks, or lower the recovery time after fleet losses/catches.

lokken · 15 Mar 2006, 18:59

Sadly there is no prospect of posting on this issue without the XP debate rearing its ugly head.

Roids are far better, as they give value just like res, they potentially give long term income but prevent fleets getting killed.

Although the best thing to do is nothing at all.

furball · 15 Mar 2006, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lokken

Roids are far better, as they give value just like res, they potentially give long term income but prevent fleets getting killed.

Au contraire. Roids, especially for Cathaar players, are a death sentence.

If I could stay at around 600-700 roids, I wouldn't mind. But all I have to do is a couple more successful attacks, hit 1000 roids and get 20 waves of incoming as opposed to the average 2-3.

Kal · 15 Mar 2006, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

Giving out resources every time the ticker stops (which seems to be every couple of days at the moment) is a monumentally bad idea.

It increases the size of fleets, which makes everyone a worse target. This makes it harder for everyone to attack (the temporary increase in your own fleet size is negated by the consistently higher losses you'll receive because everyone else has a bigger fleet too).

It's a well-known and uncontroversial fact that the game stagnates as time goes on because fleets get bigger relative to roid counts. Giving out resources accelerates this process. If PA team must give something out, roids would be far better.

The recent handling of downtime has been very poor in my opinion.

The set policy should be:
ticks restart 24 hours after the last good backup
fleets are not recalled
no resource bonsues are given

(note this should only apply to serious downtime with more than 1 tick lost)

wakey · 15 Mar 2006, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

The recent handling of downtime has been very poor in my opinion.

The set policy should be:
ticks restart 24 hours after the last good backup
fleets are not recalled
no resource bonsues are given

(note this should only apply to serious downtime with more than 1 tick lost)

How can you justify saying that on rollback there shouldnt be a fleet recall?

When you have spent multiple hours sorting defence for incoming only to find it rolling back to xx:30 after the tick where incoming started it just causes mass confusion. Id the incoming that were covered still covered, or was the defence sent after xx:30 and you now need replacements for that incoming. Is the DC that handled it still on, if so do they still know what those that did send before xx:30 sent and if the DC isnt on have the supplied all the infomation needed to other DC's so in the event of a rollback things can be sorted ect ect

And thats just a small amount of the extra pressure areas a rollback put on DC's and its a tough enough job as iy is, especially seeing as the game sees to always fail during the periods where the most incoming is happening thus meaning you can easierly be dealing with 10 or more calls.

No recall basically means your leaving a number of people whom are being attacked or have sent defence to be slaughtered because the game has broken which is hardly fair

Kal · 16 Mar 2006, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakey

How can you justify saying that on rollback there shouldnt be a fleet recall?

When you have spent multiple hours sorting defence for incoming only to find it rolling back to xx:30 after the tick where incoming started it just causes mass confusion. Id the incoming that were covered still covered, or was the defence sent after xx:30 and you now need replacements for that incoming. Is the DC that handled it still on, if so do they still know what those that did send before xx:30 sent and if the DC isnt on have the supplied all the infomation needed to other DC's so in the event of a rollback things can be sorted ect ect

And thats just a small amount of the extra pressure areas a rollback put on DC's and its a tough enough job as iy is, especially seeing as the game sees to always fail during the periods where the most incoming is happening thus meaning you can easierly be dealing with 10 or more calls.

No recall basically means your leaving a number of people whom are being attacked or have sent defence to be slaughtered because the game has broken which is hardly fair

rolling back also ruins the large amount of work people have put into things previously. Given that chances are people probabaly have over 15 hours notice of when ticks will restart it should not be hard for the planets that have incomings that can still get defence to talk to dcs and make sure they are covered. The fact that in essence therte will be 15 hours for the last half hour of the tick means that defence is made easier not harder - its attackers that will suffer due to the extra opportunites to get defence.

Nadar · 16 Mar 2006, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

rolling back also ruins the large amount of work people have put into things previously. Given that chances are people probabaly have over 15 hours notice of when ticks will restart it should not be hard for the planets that have incomings that can still get defence to talk to dcs and make sure they are covered. The fact that in essence therte will be 15 hours for the last half hour of the tick means that defence is made easier not harder - its attackers that will suffer due to the extra opportunites to get defence.

But why recall fleets that is eta 4 though?

jerome · 16 Mar 2006, 01:05

because then the few who launched a tick or few ahead get a whole extra landing extra ccompared to everyone else

Nadar · 16 Mar 2006, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome

because then the few who launched a tick or few ahead get a whole extra landing extra ccompared to everyone else

Well, those who were eta 5+ would most likely be defended against anyway as alliance/galaxy would have shittons of ticks to cover it. I'm ok enough with pulling all fleets, but stop giving out resources damnit, totally unfair to those without many roids.

Kal · 16 Mar 2006, 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadar

Well, those who were eta 5+ would most likely be defended against anyway as alliance/galaxy would have shittons of ticks to cover it. I'm ok enough with pulling all fleets, but stop giving out resources damnit, totally unfair to those without many roids.

most likely defended - but not allways - if the gal has heavy incs, and alliance has all fleets out elsehwere it could still be free roids.

also people ahve plenty of time to check if there is defence themselves and ddecdie whether to recall.

As long as plenty of notice is given fleets should not need to be recalled.

my policy is one of as little interference with the game as possible so as to avoid pateam influencing the outcome of the round.

Phil^ · 16 Mar 2006, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by idimmu

what happened with just giving out free resources was that one party was adequatly compensated for the downtime, whilst the other party wasnt.

you missed the part where giving everyone resources increases their value, thus increasing the number of targets available for you to get maximum xp on attacks from.
you dont have to increase in value at the same time since you have the option of donating it all away

Quote:

Originally Posted by idimmu

give us the several hundred k score from xp we would have got!

Assuming you would have landed. you wouldnt have got it for certain now would you?
They could get def, they could build enough to stop your fleet, you might have to recall your fleet for some reason, etc.
people get resources no matter what in this game - its simply a question of time to determine how much they get.

Phil^ · 16 Mar 2006, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by idimmu

This is completly irrelevent. Good xp whoring involves finding a planet with a lot of roids twice your size or higher with a hole in the fleet composition you can abuse. When it comes to attacking, I always go for higher as they'll have more roids for similar losses. Stop grasping for straws and intentionally missing the actual issue.

there -is- no issue , thats the thing. You were the one to seize upon the fantasy notion that pateam were disadvantaging those who arent playing for value intentionally and cry "omg unfair"
everyone got compensated equally. its not pateams fault if the tactic you went for doesnt utilise the resources to their best and there is nothing stopping you from just using them to build up the fleet you xp whore with so you can get through on those with better fleet compositions

Quote:

Originally Posted by idimmu

I also dislike it, but its not my fault it exists, dont blame the player, blame the game. Adding artificial hinderences to us after the fact and celebrating it however just shows how childish you are.

im not celebrating it - why would i want to celebrate the game breaking?, and for you to imagine such a thing only shows how petty and desperate you are to blame someone else for things which are beyond pateams control.

jerome · 16 Mar 2006, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

its not pateams fault if the tactic you went for doesnt utilise the resources to their best

haha

JonnyBGood · 16 Mar 2006, 16:38

Phil, you can't seriously be suggesting that randomly allowing certain parts of the game to effectively carry on while other bits do not is an accurate reflection of the game if all parts had been carrying on as normal at the same time?

Phil^ · 16 Mar 2006, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Phil, you can't seriously be suggesting that randomly allowing certain parts of the game to effectively carry on while other bits do not is an accurate reflection of the game if all parts had been carrying on as normal at the same time?

i'll have you know i had to read that at least 4-5 times to decypher what you were trying to say

Im saying that they arent specifically allowing certain parts to carry on since the one and only thing players are guaranteed to get in this game, is resources and that the amount they get is simply determined by time.
saying that its suddenly unfair and intentionally targetting those who went for xp to disadvantage them is ludicrous.

jerome · 16 Mar 2006, 16:49

it is because: AT NIGHT TIME, PEOPLE ATTACK AND LAND. LANDING GIVES XPWHORES ALL THEIR SCORE. NOT LANDING MEANS NO SCORE. THIS ESPECIALLY SUCKS SINCE YOU WASTE AWAY A WHOLE DAY TO WAIT TO ATTACK AGAIN AS VALUEWHORES GROW FROM THEIR ROIDS HAPPILY.

JonnyBGood · 16 Mar 2006, 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

Im saying that they arent specifically allowing certain parts to carry on since the one and only thing players are guaranteed to get in this game, is resources and that the amount they get is simply determined by time.

Find me a planet without xp.

Phil^ · 16 Mar 2006, 16:55

1) theres nothing stopping you ( other then the increased chance of getting defended against ) from attacking during the day
2) pateam dont set out to make their own game break just so they can annoy those who went for xp
3) fleet recalls are a necessary evil since the backups are not done on the tick and any previously launched fleets to cover a defence, or attacks ordered will not be there when the rollback is done. rollbacks are necessary because planets have a much longer time to get defence for any incomings then normal. they arent done just because pateam went "oh lets go annoy those xp whores". hell if they want to do that they can just make your xp disappear through a command to the database. now THAT would be unfair to you but the events of the last week certainly are not

Phil^ · 16 Mar 2006, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Find me a planet without xp.

any starting planet who has not initated roids, done research, built constructions, attacked, etc.

JonnyBGood · 16 Mar 2006, 16:57

The point phil is that the game should be delayed 24 hours and no compensation of any kind, resources, roids, average amount of xp previously gained per day should be given out. None.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

any starting planet who has not initated roids, done research, built constructions, attacked, etc.

I can see a large collection of those making for an interesting game!

jerome · 16 Mar 2006, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

1) theres nothing stopping you ( other then the increased chance of getting defended against ) from attacking during the day

stop being an idiot.

Quote:

2) pateam dont set out to make their own game break just so they can annoy those who went for xp

this isn't the point, the point is that xp "whores" are being put on a disadvantage, albeit unintentionally (presumably)

Quote:

3) fleet recalls are a necessary evil since the backups are not done on the tick and any previously launched fleets to cover a defence, or attacks ordered will not be there when the rollback is done. rollbacks are necessary because planets have a much longer time to get defence for any incomings then normal. they arent done just because pateam went "oh lets go annoy those xp whores". hell if they want to do that they can just make your xp disappear through a command to the database. now THAT would be unfair to you but the events of the last week certainly are not

what on earth is the matter with you? are you blind or retarded or something? the problem is the fact that giving out resources aids value whores exponentially more than xp whores who rely purely on landing attacks, not on resources.

Banned · 16 Mar 2006, 17:10

Giving out anything at all is ****ing retarded.

Phil^ · 16 Mar 2006, 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome

stop being an idiot.
are you blind or retarded or something?

aah yes. when logic fails : insult.
fact remains : You can attack during the day - theres no game mechanism which prevents that.
Granted its a silly idea since the chances of getting defended against is much higher due to more players being online.

value players are disadvantaged against xp players because they cannot take someone who has all their score based in xp down, xp players are disadvantaged against value players with a good fleet compostion and active sources of defence. swings and roundabouts.

You all get the same thing as compensation : resources.
If you dont use them to their full potential then the burden of blame is on you, not pateam for giving you them.

the same resources add to the same score in both value and xp players - the fact you dont use them is an artifical restriction that you yourself have imposed due to your religious following of the xp whoring method.

pateam arent forcing you to use them just the same as they arent forcing you NOT to use them. they are there if you want them or not. If you do, use them and if not, donate them away.

Either way, you chose this tactic - not pateam and its your own problem if you choose not to use the resources given to you - not theirs or anyone elses.

JonnyBGood · 16 Mar 2006, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

aah yes. when logic fails : insult.
fact remains : You can attack during the day - theres no game mechanism which prevents that.
Granted its a silly idea since the chances of getting defended against is much higher due to more players being online.

value players are disadvantaged against xp players because they cannot take someone who has all their score based in xp down, xp players are disadvantaged against value players with a good fleet compostion and active sources of defence. swings and roundabouts.

You all get the same thing as compensation : resources.
If you dont use them to their full potential then the burden of blame is on you, not pateam for giving you them.

the same resources add to the same score in both value and xp players - the fact you dont use them is an artifical restriction that you yourself have imposed due to your religious following of the xp whoring method.

pateam arent forcing you to use them just the same as they arent forcing you NOT to use them. they are there if you want them or not. If you do, use them and if not, donate them away.

Either way, you chose this tactic - not pateam and its your own problem if you choose not to use the resources given to you - not theirs or anyone elses.

This is not a contest to see who can last the pace in the dreariest argument on the internet in three years phil. Giving out resources for 12 ticks based on the roid-count of each planet before the game went down is an inherently unbalanced idea which does not accurately reflect the progression of the game. This is objective fact. Ergo if your goal for any compensation of downtime is an accurate reflection of what is likely to have occurred if the downtime had not happened giving out resources as if those ticks happened is a bad idea. Doing anything is a bad idea as you can't accurately reflect what would have happened due a lack of information.

jerome · 16 Mar 2006, 17:23

it's pa team's responsiblity to make sure that what they give out isn't ojust one sided in terms of help.

i can't believe someone who used to be pa-team and plays in 1up is so oblivious/ignorant or are you just being argumentative for the sake of it?
edit: lol wait!

Phil^ · 16 Mar 2006, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by idimmu

The resources are compensation for score loss due to the ticker stopping.

The amount of compensation for that loss given to xp whores does not accuratly reflect their losses due to the downtime, whilst value whores are fairly compensated by score.

Everything else is just whimsical falicy. Stop ignoring that point.

and those losses are not guaranteed to have occurred. they are based entirely on the assumption you would have landed alone, against no defence and captured all the roids you could.

Nothing in this game is certain when it comes to attacks. resources however are