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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 20:19   #1
x-dANGEr
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A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

I think it does solve problems, and can be balanced good to make it fair for the value player and the xp player, and will add a new dimention to that game.

Making 'killing ships' and capping roids do reward you with XP. That will surely solve the problem of XP exploiting, as losing your ships to the defender will give him XP, too, maybe rewarding him more than you. Also, it will encourage playing for value. Like, I cap enough roids to have a considerable defending army, which defends friendly planets, and if neacisiry fleet catch their attackers, thus, getting more XP. What may resolve the problem of am too big, I have no fat targets to attack..
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 03:44   #2
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

I dont think that this is a very good suggestion, for the simple fact that by providing XP for killing ships it gives value and XP incentive to "bash newbies" as their fleets are typically smaller, weaker and less well designed such that you can gain large (relative) amounts of XP by destroying every new player to the game. As soon as these people build ships, they would get 102912039123 ships attacking them, which is clearly not beneficial to the community as it is already wilting.

The way XP works right now has its flaws, but it is a damn sight better than anything and everything else before it, and quite frankly i cant think of a better way to do it. Giving XP for killing newbies isnt a great idea mate.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 14:32   #3
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Yes but everything could be altared just right. I mean, maybe giving XP for defending will do it. At least that will give something to those who's hourly job is defending.. :P
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 14:37   #4
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Still, no-one would defend the newbies even with XP for defence - it simply isnt viable especially if your alliancemates need the defence too.

Seriously, XP for killing ships in a major no-no.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 14:46   #5
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

I meant maybe removing XP for killing ships while attacking, but keeping them their when defending.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 15:38   #6
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

yeah. xp for defence killing ships is a good possibility.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:03   #7
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
yeah. xp for defence killing ships is a good possibility.
So Cathaars get no XP for defending, whether their presence made the battle or not? Seems a bit unfair to me.

Travelling to a defensive mission is prolly the most viable way to do it, but due to the highly abusable nature that this can lead to then i dont imagine that it would be much XP at all. If there is fuel in PAN then i seriously doubt that it would be economically viable to trade E for XP.

Anyway, there are a multitude of threads of XP for defence. All of these arguments have been raised before, plus a plethora of alternative suggestions.

The Search button is your friend.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:17   #8
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

oh dear.. you see.. now you try to avoid the discussion mentioning something else.. *sigh*

kill/emped, makes no difference, should be xp for both in def if applicable.

We've had this discussion before, but when someone bumps and old topic they get told off for that, and when they write a new topic they get told off because of that..
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:22   #9
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
kill/emped, makes no difference, should be xp for both in def if applicable.
No difference you say? I'd say my ships are dead if they get killed in combat and frozen if EMP'ed. There's your difference.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:32   #10
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
No difference you say? I'd say my ships are dead if they get killed in combat and frozen if EMP'ed. There's your difference.
Read the post again.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:36   #11
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Surely awarding the same xp points for ships frozen as ships killed would result in a bit of a bias towards cathaar?
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:45   #12
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Read the post again.
Read the post again and you'll understand that there's a difference in getting your ships killed and emp'ed when abusing def-XP. Obviously no one would let a kill-fleet defend against them for (or vice versa), so I'm sure we'd see caths abusing this (unless multi-planets).
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:56   #13
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Surely awarding the same xp points for ships frozen as ships killed would result in a bit of a bias towards cathaar?
How? Are Cat more likely to freeze than Xan or Ter are to kill?
Besides they are already biased against defending because of the lack of salvage.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 16:59   #14
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Perhaps there should be alimit to the amount of XP available in a battle. Stopping an attacking ship means the attacker keeps his ship and so loses nothing. Killing an attacking ship means the attacker will lose.
So either emp has Xp value or not and therefore a whole race is either useful or useless.

I say Xp for stopping should be given Xp since an atacker can kill CAT ships yet a CAT cant be cedited with preventing the kill. Perhaps the emp effect can result in the victim of emp having -Xp for not doing his sums right.

Its a difficult choice. Humanity or extinction?
Emp doesnt do much for reproduction in the living so maybe incorporate some of that in the sums.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 00:52   #15
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

No-one has yet found a way to prevent the use of XP for defence. Until they do, all of you may kindly shut up about it. It isn't going to happen until it can't be abused.

As for XP for killing ships, you're encouraging bashing by encouraging the destruction of someone else's fleet (they'll need to be of lower value). That leads to people quitting Planetarion. It also leads to the aforementioned and hence titled 'Cathaar problem'.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 00:56   #16
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey
How? Are Cat more likely to freeze than Xan or Ter are to kill?
Besides they are already biased against defending because of the lack of salvage.
People are thousands of times more likely to land on a cathaar partly-covered planet as their ships won't be killed. Salvage is fairly meaningless in comparison to this.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 02:01   #17
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
oh dear.. you see.. now you try to avoid the discussion mentioning something else.. *sigh*
Hardly. my reply mentioned what would happen if you gave XP for killing ships in defence. Cathaar EMP does not kill ships - it merely stunns their weapons for a tick. I thought that this was immediately apparent, but still worthwhile mentioning.

I then went on to mention alternatives to killing ships for defence XP, namely, the use of travel times to slowly gain XP, to establish that there were other ways of attributing XP for defence. This is not avoiding the discussion, it is expanding it - and indeed if you consider the topic of the thread now as XP for Defending, it is a totally legitimate point and hardly "avoiding the discussion".

Then i suggested the use of the Forum Search tool to find the other threads that deal with this issue, as everything has really been said before on the issue. On the suggestion from Kargool's neg rep, here are some results for you.

An early discussion on XP for Defence
And another thread on a similar note
A more recent discussion on XP for Defence
i'd imagine that there are more around, but i think those three (as they are fairly lengthy) cover most of the points that will be raised again in this thread.

Quote:
We've had this discussion before, but when someone bumps and old topic they get told off for that, and when they write a new topic they get told off because of that..
Personally, i dont have a problem with people bumping old threads, provided what they said is relevent to the discussion at hand and that the issue hasnt been done to death in more recent threads. I despair at people who write the exact same suggestion in a new thread, as the exact same discussion then takes place. If it is a new suggestion or even a (significant) alteration to a suggestion in a different thread, then a new thread is appropriate. Further, i was refering to the Search function to the original poster for the arguments for all the other types of XP for Defence, though i am pretty sure that XP for killing attacker's ships was brought up in the aforementioned threads.

Are you quite satasfied now, Kargool?
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:03   #18
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

But Cath ships do have the absolute power of Xp wh0ring and that can be their source of XP.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:19   #19
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
But Cath ships do have the absolute power of Xp wh0ring and that can be their source of XP.
I'd say terrans has the absolute power due to their massive armor XPwh0ring with other races is a lot harder as you can see in the top100 rankings.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:38   #20
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Are you trying to say you want a challenge-less version of Planetarion Idimmu? You're on the wrong site mate, ******** is the game you want.

Attacking larger planets is a -good- thing.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:39   #21
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

@Nadar: Not that Terrans do have those quite effective defensive ships :P
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 18:04   #22
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
@Nadar: Not that Terrans do have those quite effective defensive ships :P
Why would a Terran xpwh0re build defensive ships? Why would any xpwh0re build defensive ships?
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 19:05   #23
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

That's the point. I mean that Cath and Ter would make up for their 'Not-so-cool-in-defence' ships by using them in what they are too cool in (Attacking). That would in someway make those 'suiciders' give their suicide attempt a thought, because getting the XP the defenders would out of killing his ships might not give him as much good as it's going now.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 19:17   #24
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
That's the point. I mean that Cath and Ter would make up for their 'Not-so-cool-in-defence' ships by using them in what they are too cool in (Attacking).
Caths got good defensive ships mate :|
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 19:40   #25
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

I don't know about this round, but Caths can still lands very good attacks on 2x bigger planets right? If so, I mean that by not giving Caths XP for defence, it goes quite fair. As they make up for it in attack. I understand the Terrans are the rounds' hotshot XPers, well, they will get XP for defence, but it will be unlikely they'll have good defence ships. Got what I mean?

That will give those with high values (Who propable wil be Xans/Ziks) a chance to keep up with Terrans/Cath XP-ers. As through their defences, they'll be able to put their hands on some very valuable XP. Considering a Ter/Cath will always land, the chance for high value players for getting XP is the same as those Ter Caths. It will balance the races more, giving Ter/Cath the XP route, and Xan the ability to keep up with them through defending, and Zik through stealing. Of course, I don't think XP should be given for stealing, even in defence.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 20:03   #26
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Caths can land good attacks yes. But a lot of xans (their main cr-target) is building shitloads of FR which is getting harder and harder to emp for every day. Other than that they'd like to attack ziks with bw and mosquitos, but that's also getting harder as ziks steals enough anti-fr to stop them.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 20:11   #27
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

A rough round for Caths then. But everything can be altared next round :P
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 22:45   #28
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

My post got deleted. RIP awesome post, lost in an effort to neg-rep someone mid-post


It makes no sense at all to base formulas on assumptions in the stats. Just because Cath's been a crap defender for the last few rounds (EMP ships having too great an eta for alliance defence) doesn't mean that it will be so in the future. This is the sort of thinking that can really screw up the game.

The suggestion that Cath will get XP for attacking and so don't need XP for defending is nothing short of crass ignorance of game mechanics. A race that can do both will automatically trump Cath because they will be able to gain XP on two fronts - attack and defence - and so potentially get XP with all three of their fleets every day. In contrast, a Cathaar would have to successfully three-fleet every day in order to do so. Assuming that they have an alliance (as most players do), they won't be allowed to do this by their alliance. And so Cathaar players would have virtually no chance of finishing in the top 20.

Saying that it's just "a rough round for Caths" isn't good enough. In the perfect round, every race will be balanced by having equal attacking and defending opportunities. Realising this is extremely difficult, especially with the constraints imposed by stealing - but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be our end goal.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 14:36   #29
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

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Originally Posted by furball
It makes no sense at all to base formulas on assumptions in the stats. Just because Cath's been a crap defender for the last few rounds (EMP ships having too great an eta for alliance defence) doesn't mean that it will be so in the future. This is the sort of thinking that can really screw up the game.
So on what else you want me to base them on? If we aren't to base formulas on stats assumptions, then we should just say that Cath maybe won't have EMP next round..

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The suggestion that Cath will get XP for attacking and so don't need XP for defending is nothing short of crass ignorance of game mechanics. A race that can do both will automatically trump Cath because they will be able to gain XP on two fronts - attack and defence - and so potentially get XP with all three of their fleets every day. In contrast, a Cathaar would have to successfully three-fleet every day in order to do so. Assuming that they have an alliance (as most players do), they won't be allowed to do this by their alliance. And so Cathaar players would have virtually no chance of finishing in the top 20.
The point here is that Cath ships are too great in attacking (Or at least supposed to), so yes a Cath Race maybe should be able to harvest roids from a planet 2x it's size, same applies with Terrans, though, Terrans may have to suffer unneacesiry casualties than when using Caths. And I don't really think you can be an XP harvester in both attack or defence, you can have XP in both, but not as much as an 'attacker' would have from attacking or a 'defencer' from defencing. Like, you're Xan, you don't have a lot of FI to attack bigger planets, so you can defend and get XP for defending. Though, if you had focused all your ship production on FI, you may have got even more XP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Saying that it's just "a rough round for Caths" isn't good enough. In the perfect round, every race will be balanced by having equal attacking and defending opportunities. Realising this is extremely difficult, especially with the constraints imposed by stealing - but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be our end goal.
Their is just no perfect round. Something will always go unthought, even if not in stats, it may be in numbers (Too many Ter, few Xan and so on).

Edit: Oh and I'm srry for posting such a bad post, that needed you to neg-rip while writing your own post, causing your post to go in flames.
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Unread 3 Mar 2006, 20:18   #30
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

How about somehow add value gained and value lost to the xp formula? I think that could help a bit with stopping xp exploiting.

And maybe doing something like this in addition: if 2 planets attacks each their planet with twice their size, and cap equal same amount of roids without losses, then the planet with most value would gain a tad more xp (Would ofcause dephend a bit on how you would define a tad).

I think those 2 things could make it more rewarding for ppl to try to keep a high value.
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Unread 3 Mar 2006, 20:48   #31
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Anyway, I'd like to state that I don't encourage this idea anymore. After all, it will do nothing but complicate the game, and really, it is fun the way it is, and punishing not defencing by no defence is the best thing. Though, a more balanced stats would be better next round
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Unread 4 Mar 2006, 00:06   #32
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Still think your onto something. Something needs to be done with xp-whores. Been able to land attacks with 200 cr losses without crying this round.

I don't think you should be able to gain much xp, even after attacking someone twice your size if you loose most of your fleet.

Hard to tell what the correct solution should be, but think something needs to be done. After all ppl who are able to keep most their ships alive during a round should earn on it. Atleast they shouldn't be beated by xp-whores with ca 300-500k value.
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Unread 4 Mar 2006, 00:46   #33
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

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After all ppl who are able to keep most their ships alive during a round should earn on it.
You think XP-wh0res likes jacking off their fleets like that? XPwh0res gets waved and roided up to several times a day because of their specialized fleets. Keeping your fleet alive is critical for an XP-wh0re. As I said, they get roided several times a day which means they won't be able to build up their fleet again quickly enough.
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Unread 4 Mar 2006, 02:53   #34
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

But do you really think ppl won't exploit it, if someone can win a round if they keep their value low?
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Unread 4 Mar 2006, 07:33   #35
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

@Nadar, the XP formula now is dependant on the percent of value loss of the attacker ships too right? Like, If I attack someone 2x my value and get a full cap, but also lose %70 of my ships (Stolen), will I get the same XP if I lose nothing?
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Unread 4 Mar 2006, 08:36   #36
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

No, the XP formula is dependent on roids gained and difference in value. Wether you lose ships or kill ships is irrelevent as long as you get max cap (max XP). So yes, you will get the same XP if you don't lose anything.
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Unread 4 Mar 2006, 11:53   #37
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

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I think it does solve problems, and can be balanced good to make it fair for the value player and the xp player, and will add a new dimention to that game.

Making 'killing ships' and capping roids do reward you with XP. That will surely solve the problem of XP exploiting, as losing your ships to the defender will give him XP, too, maybe rewarding him more than you. Also, it will encourage playing for value. Like, I cap enough roids to have a considerable defending army, which defends friendly planets, and if neacisiry fleet catch their attackers, thus, getting more XP. What may resolve the problem of am too big, I have no fat targets to attack..
People complain about this, but it beggars belief when there are so called 'value' players, who when you hit them, they counter you and get few roids and low XP. This tells me that a lot of players aren't even getting the most out of what XP is available to them. You can outscore the XP whores, simply by outroiding them and accumating a lot of value and xp that way. This round, there seems to be only a handful of individuals capable of doing this. XP whores have to keep their fleet alive long enough so that they've got enough resources in reserve to go out roiding again if the worst does happen, and they have to do this in spite of being roided constantly, partly by quite bad players who don't understand the game mechanics as the whole idea of XP was to eliminate the whole nature of smacking smaller value planets for cheap roids.

Even so, I don't think the terran stats help. But then again, I get plenty of XP, but i'm not terran. Infact the 2nd biggest XP gainer is a xan. There is a distortion in the stats favouring XP and terran, but there are other ways of building good planets besides and to me that suggests that the XP feature is fine.
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Unread 17 Mar 2006, 00:54   #38
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

EMP shold mean when a ship is frozen it stays frozen until killed or stolen. It acts as flak for attacking fleets and can distort reports on a planet. A bit like ships sunk near a port to hinder attacks.

The attacker has lost control of the ship and it sits at the target planet till something happens to it. Makes being a Cat more worthwhile since rather than gaining XP for kills it gains barriers from attackers. Perhaps the effect of EMP could be reduced to accomodate this scenario.
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Unread 17 Mar 2006, 10:09   #39
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

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Yes but everything could be altared just right. I mean, maybe giving XP for defending will do it. At least that will give something to those who's hourly job is defending.. :P
This can be very damaging for alliances. this way you create an environment where members defend their alliancem8's because they'd gain XP from it rather then helping them out because they're your collegues.
Meaning that certain pple might think twice before defending, seeing if it'd benefit them or not. I don't think this is the spirit you'd want to create in your alliance.

Nonetheless the current XP formula is no good either ...
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Unread 17 Mar 2006, 12:45   #40
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

The same goes for stealing, remember? :P

I think this issue is decided now anyway..
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Unread 20 Mar 2006, 15:06   #41
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

I'm just thinking out loud here, prolly doesn't make much sense
but would making pods be the last targetted ship (realisticly they go in and out while rest is fighting and protecting them or something) and then making it so that only pods that return to base can actually cap roids (and thus give XP) solve anything?
or any obvious reason (there prolly are many) why this wouldn't work?

I didn't wanna make a topic for such random thoughts so forgive me if this looks like hijacking the thread :|
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Unread 20 Mar 2006, 16:20   #42
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

Not targetting pods until all other fire on that class is used up seems like a bad idea dude unless you're making pods a new class to prevent flakking - in which case everyone would just build the new ships that targetted 'POD-class'.

As for only allowing pods that survive the entire battle to cap, this just makes stealing wtfpwn again. The inherent weakness of stealing is that you can't prevent an attacker capping without stealing appropriate kill ships - and having it any other way will make Zik even harder to roid.
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Unread 21 Mar 2006, 10:38   #43
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Re: A Great Sollution to XP 'exploiting'.

yeah I figured it would, like I said, was just thinking out loud :P
I wouldn't make pod a new class tho, but I don't see why you should prevent flakking, aren't the other ships more valuable? it would require massive amounts of more valueable ships to die to save the pods
but I guess they can just mass pods then so yeh prolly not a very good idea :P

and obviously didn't look at it from a stealing perspective :P
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