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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:01   #1
Forest
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Children - A privalege or a right?

I am looking into this for a paper I am writing, and gaining feedback from other areas, but I thought it would be interesting to see the census from other social backgrounds.

I am looking at whether adults ahve the right to a child, or whether they should earn that right.
For instance, as much as its very sad that lots of children are dying in africa from starvation, do the parents of these children have to take some responsibility for having children, when they know they cant possibly look after them properly. If that happened in the UK, it could be a child abuse issue.

The three items I would like your opinion on, are:

1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).

2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?

3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?


Please if you wouldnt mind, could you add at the bottom of your post...
a) Your age
b) Your sex
c) Your location
d) Siblings/only child.
e) If you have children of your own.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:05   #2
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

i dont think that eveyone shud have chilrden but i certainy dont think that the government should have any way to say anthing about it
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:11   #3
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

I think you should re-tittle it : Children - Privalege, Right, or Accident?

On a more responsive note, It's none of the governments business where you stick your dick and pop your loads.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:12   #4
Forest
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Im not talking about governments etc.

I want to know your personal feelings, on whether its morally right/wrong etc.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:12   #5
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

1) I think people should be judged on circumstances. If you have no job you cant afford to have kids then dont, otherwise your going to be sponging even more off of the state just to keep them alive. Also druggies shouldnt be allowed either, for obvious reasons.

2) Like i said if you cant afford to have kids then you shouldnt. I just think its unfair ont he child. If you cant give them a decent quality of life then dont have any.

3) If they have stable jobs and arent drug addicts etc. I dont see why not. But if some junkie wanted the treatment they shouldnt be allowed until they are clean.

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:14   #6
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
The three items I would like your opinion on, are:

1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
Imo not all parents should have the right to get children (speaking of having babies etc, not adoption). For example those parents who do have a disease(AIDS etc) or anything that is more then likely to go to the children and which (even if the children could be happy) would not let them exsperience life as it should be, should be allowed to have children.

Parents which in advance do know they can't support their children shouldn't be allowed to get them neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
If you can't support your kid/baby you shouldn't be allowed to have children imo
My reason for this is fairly simple, if you (the baby) can't have a good and normal life (more looking toward the european standard way of life here) then your life will totally suck i reckon (even tho, if your not used to having the stuff we consider having always, you won't know what your missing (ignorance IS bliss))

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
No. if your infertile, your infertile, life with it. Adopt a child if you really want one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
a) Your age
b) Your sex
c) Your location
d) Siblings/only child.
e) If you have children of your own.
a) 20
b) Male
c) The Netherlands
d) Have 1 brother
e) nope
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:14   #7
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

This is an odd topic for GD but I will add my 2p worth.

I've never been a biological father and it's unlikely I ever will be as I made the decision that as I probably wouldn't be a very good one a few years ago (plus the EVIL TWISTED CRACK WHORE YANK BITCH I married insisted I have the op) and I would avoid being in the situation where I was ever one.

Parents have the responsibility to care for their children but there are far too many different influences from various sources for them to do the job properly.

Imagine if you will a parent bringing up a daughter to save herself for someone special and the daughter seeing Britney ponce about in a school uniform. What kind of message does that give ?

I can't understand why parents in underdeveloped countries carry on having children but as I am not one I don't know their reasons.

Now, as for the question of should adults in civilised countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile ? I don't believe they should. I am unaware of the figures, but I would imagine there has to be more children in care that need parents than infertile parents. Is it their need to give birth that they need or just the children ?

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:15   #8
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Not everyone should, but its a can of worms too big to comprehend letting the government choose who should and shouldnt be able to reproduce. Do we want the government killing illegal babies? Wheres the line? Should a murderer be banned from reproducing, but a drug dealer not?

Nah its thoroughly impossible to even comprehend.

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:20   #9
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

We should have something closer to a big brother state.


Not all adults should have the right to have children. For example, there are many adults who knowingly have a genetic condition but still reproduce therefore passing that condition onto their offspring.

There are some adults who are not mentally capable of looking after children and bringing that child up to become a responsible adult.

there are some adults in the western world who simple do not have the means to support a child and perhaps even have a child or several (vicky pollard type people come to mind here ) to increase their welfare state handouts.


as for adults in other countries who bring children into the world knowing they wont be able to support them, this is down to education. I can not see how this can be prevented without support and education from the western world........ an endorsement for contraception from the catholic church would be a good start !


If someone in a so called "civilised" society wants kids and can support them without being a burdon on the welfare state then by all means they should be given free fertility treatment if it is needed.



Im male, im 40 and i am one of 4 children and i have a beautiful 10 month old daughter.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:23   #10
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
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Im male, im 40
Old fart (giggle)
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:28   #11
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Exclamation Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

People should be encouraged to indulge themselves in deviant sexual practises from an early age.

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:29   #12
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:12   #13
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

[
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).

Everyone deserves the right, however, the right should be taken off them depending upon circumstances, but this would be impossibly hard to legislate

2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?

no, but this is an education issue, although again, impossible to do anything about

3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?

if circumstances permit, then yes, I know a couple who were trying for 5 years before they could get infertility treatment, 5 years. Bit extreme imo


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c) england
d) youngest of 4 children, 2 brothers 1 sister
e) will have my first in 4 months
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:15   #14
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
Deserve is a dodgy word. (As is 'right' but we won't get into that argument again) Using that word then no, not all adults 'deserve' the right to have children. The unfortunate thing is that you cannot know that someone will be a 'bad' parent until it happens. As such we cannot change things. Everyone who wants to have a child can try to have a child. They may not be able to have a child for whatever reason but they can still try. Some people who don't wish to have children will have children through either accident or idiocy. In either case these people still have the right to have this child.

Personally I think there is a lack of maturity in our society about having children. I have never understood the attitude that a child is the natural progression of a relationship and therefore it is an incomplete relationship without a child. I have never understood why people have children when they don't really want to have children, they almost have them for the sake of it.

If you neglect or abuse a child then to my mind you most certainly give up the 'right' to that child. You give up the right to make decisions which will affect that child because if you are abusing or neglecting that child then you are not making decisions based on the best interest of the child, rather the best interest of yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
No they shouldn't continue to have (so many) children knowing that they will be unable to feed their children. But these people need education about birth control and other such issues, particularly the women, so that there is more choice in the matter, and so that these choices can be made rationally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
No. (Or at least only within reason whatever that is.)

Again I have never understood the necessity some people feel to have a child. People who feel 'incomplete' without a child. But if people really really feel that they have to have to GOD I will die if I don't have a kid then they can try treatment, but frankly, and without sounding too harsh, if you or your partner is infertile then you live with it. Is it the end of the world? I think not. If people want to spend thousands of pounds on making their relationship complete with a child then let them. Personally I think a relationship is complete with 2 people. That is enough to constitute a family. Anything else is a bonus and a privilege.


I am....
a) 28
b) Female
c) Scotland
d) I have 1 brother (5 years my senior)
e) no.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:29   #15
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Exclamation Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
I think all adults should have the right to have children (or the right to try--fertility can be fickle). Forced sterilization might be warranted in extreme cases (e.g., chronic child abuser). If they can't afford to raise a child then I would prefer they channel their energies into improving their incomes first. Raising children is hard work!
Quote:
2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
Obviously they should not, but if they choose otherwise I'm not in a position to stop them (nor do I want to be).
Quote:
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
There are no free treatments. There are just those which you pay for and those which someone else pays for. They should pay for their own treatments if they can afford them. I don't believe in forcing anyone to pay for someone else's treatments, but if people want to voluntarily help others they should of course be free to do so.



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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:32   #16
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

1) What do you mean by 'having a right'? How do you earn a right?

2) If someone can feed his own children, what does it matter whether the rest of the country can feed theirs? Wouldnt you be better asking "Regardless of where you happen to live, should you have a child if you know you cant care for it properly", to which the answer is 'no'.

3) Assuming you can find doctors who are prepared to provide equipment and do the operation without charging anything then yes, free treatment sounds like a good thing.

22/m/edinburgh/onlychild/no

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:36   #17
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

stop being deliberately obstinate nod, 'a right or a privilege' means is it a right that they automatically have, or a privilege that they are granted.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:45   #18
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
stop being deliberately obstinate nod, 'a right or a privilege' means is it a right that they automatically have, or a privilege that they are granted.
Different people use the word 'rights' to mean various things, from "something I would like people to be able to do", to more abstract uses as part of a systematic politiical theory. Without knowing what he means by 'right', the question is impossible to answer.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:46   #19
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 19:00   #20
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).

2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?

3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?


Please if you wouldnt mind, could you add at the bottom of your post...
a) Your age
b) Your sex
c) Your location
d) Siblings/only child.
e) If you have children of your own.
1) So you are asking if someone who rapes and beats and starves his children is committing A MORAL WRONG when he has romantic consensual sex with his wife?

2) I think if they are going to try their best to feed their kids, then they wouldn't be doing wrong. I doubt their would be any human race left if people who had no visible option to feed future children avoiding having kids.

3) [edit]assuming you mean fertility treatment? And is this country giving free treatment to everyone else? The I would say yes.

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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 19:01   #21
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances.
YES, BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE IS ALLOWING THE GOVERNMENT TO DECIDE AND I WOULDN'T TRUST THEM.

What if they give up that right?
IF THEY WANT TO GIVE UP THE RIGHT, ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS NOT HAVE CHILDREN. HOWEVER, IF YOU MEAN HAVING THE RIGHT TAKEN AWAY FOR SOME REASON THEN I DON'T BELIEVE IN FORCED STERILIZATION AGAIN BECAUSE I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT MAKING SUCH DECISIONS.

What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE CHILDREN. THESE WOULD INCLUDE THE SEVERELY MENTALLY RETARDED AND ANYONE ELSE UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN. HOWEVER, THIS CAN BE AT LEAST MITIGATED BY TAKING THEIR CHILDREN AWAY FROM THEM.

2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
IF YOU CAN SUPPORT YOUR CHILDREN AND WILL TAKE CARE OF THEM IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE. IF YOU CAN'T SUPPORT OR WILL NOT TAKE CARE OF YOUR CHILDREN IT ALSO DOESN'T MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE.

3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
GOVERNMENT PROVIDED, NO.

IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE TREATMENT, YOU PROBABLY CAN'T SUPPORT THE CHILD. IF IT IS SOME VERY EXPENSIVE PROPOSITION, THEN ARRANGE YOUR OWN FINANCING OR ADOPT.

Please if you wouldnt mind, could you add at the bottom of your post...
a) Your age FIFTY-EIGHT
b) Your sex MALE
c) Your location CALIFORNIA
d) Siblings/only child. ONLY CHILD
e) If you have children of your own.
TWO
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 23:59   #22
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

1) I dont belive that anyone has the right (like constitutional right, human right) to have children. Children have the rigtht to parents/adults who take care of them.

2) They should choose not too. Becouse most of those children will die. Its rather stupid to have 5 children, knowing you can only support two. Make two instead of 5, so that you don't waste anything and instead provide a better life for those 2.
(A note; see Ireland after the potato-plague, I think they did some changes in the social system and in what crops they did etc).

3) Yes, becouse I think we can afford it. Would be wise to check if they could take care of the children before giving it to them ofc. And not unlimited tries, but a set number of em.

22, Male, Norway (bergen), single-child, no children of my own
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 00:25   #23
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Chilrden - A privalege or a right?
How about neither, how about just seeing it as it is. Just the consequence of a process. The whole question begs the point that should childbearing be legislated. You say government is not a part of the question when infact you are talking about legal concepts. Law concepts, government concepts.

You know what I think a right is: nothing more than a mild promise of the powers that be to not interfere with some activity of mine. It's nothing more than a gesture. **** rights. I don't need you or some ****ing piece of paper to tell me that it is okay for me to do one thing or another. I can tell myself that. Once upon a time the law was a promise of freedom from arbitrary tyranny, now it has become a piston in a runaway truck with no driver. **** humans, I think that if a meteor came in ala deus ex machina and wiped us out the universe would be the better off for it.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 00:28   #24
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

sounds like you're about to break!
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 00:56   #25
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
I agree with Tactitus.

Quote:
2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
Definitely. Perhaps the child will have some mutation which lets him digest poo.

Quote:
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
A national health service is a peculiar idea. I think new treatments are judged on cost effectiveness; presumably against some kind of average reasonable happiness for those receiving the treatment. There isn't much scope for ethics here - just defining what counts as medicine. I'd say fertility treatment is utterly within the remit of any comprehensive healthcare.

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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 01:10   #26
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
"Innocent until proven guilty". Wealth itself is fairly inconsequential, if you aren't able to raise children on todays wellfare you're spending money on something you shouldn't be spending money on. If you can't take care of your children, I do believe it's fair that any addional children you get will be put up for adoption right away. Saves alot of time.
Quote:
2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
The places where they can't feed children are also the places contraceptives are hard to come by. Giving up sex is not a good alternative. Whatever they do though, is their choice. I honestly couldn't care less and thus reserve the right to not judge at all.
Quote:
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
"Civilized" countries have very different levels of public healthcare. I don't view artificial insemination as much different than most other procedures. In norway, it most certainly would be natural to offer it for free. In the UK I don't know. In the US, certainly not.
Quote:
Please if you wouldnt mind, could you add at the bottom of your post...
a) Your age
b) Your sex
c) Your location
d) Siblings/only child.
e) If you have children of your own.
a) 26
b) Male
c) Trondheim, Norway
d) one sister and one brother, who are not related.
e) Thank god, no. Not at all.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 04:02   #27
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSmoke
sounds like you're about to break!
sounds like someone has a case of the monday's.
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Don't act like you weren't thinking the same thing...

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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 05:07   #28
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

ok people in 3rd world countries have more children because the chances of most of them dying are very high. example they have 5 kids and only two survive to adulthood.
i think everyone has the 'right' to children, but i agree some people should have that right taken away. you can't take it away before hand because we DON'T know how a person is going to be with a child. i think single moms on welfare popping out babies from different fathers every year should be forced to get their tubes tied. i also agree on instances such as china where the population is too high that families can only have one child. this unfortunately leads to them killing daughters because they want sons.. but they're starting to figure out why that's wrong too.
i don't think infertile people should be treated. i mean they can if they want to, but with so many children needing homes why do you NEED to have one of your own? they should take the hint that 'god' doesn't want them to have kids :P (don't neg rep it was a joke )

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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 05:17   #29
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
**** humans, I think that if a meteor came in ala deus ex machina and wiped us out the universe would be the better off for it.
Did you put this in your letter to Uof Arizona? They might find it helpful in evaluating your candidacy for grad school. It also might make a nice motto that you could put on your desk in the library.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 05:45   #30
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Did you put this in your letter to Uof Arizona? They might find it helpful in evaluating your candidacy for grad school. It also might make a nice motto that you could put on your desk in the library.
Are you suggesting I be disingenuous when I post here, or is this a pathetic attempt to change my perspective on things?

You self-righteous old man, you judgemental nitwit. How dare you. You think you're clever? You think your post of wit are seen as anything more than daft attempts at two-year-old-like attention grabbing? Does your law job and family and personal needs not fulfill your social needs? The summation of your posts has led me to paint a mental picture of you as a feeble minded man. You're a tourist.

I have every justification of behing disheartened by humanity. We're sick. We cut off each others heads, we rape each other, we kill each other by the thousands. We believe in fictional characters that we try to love more than the family and friends that surround us. We lie, we cheat, we try to get ahead at the expense of others. We ignore the enourmous amount of suffering that is happening every waking day around the world. We are corrupt, we are dismal. We suck up and destroy the earth and it's resources and treat it like dirt, we have no respect for this amazing bastion of life in a cold and empty universe. We have no respect for anything, much less each other.

Phang may say I'm full of cliche's, and othes may say there's good in us, welll to both I say look at Nick Berg, look at Hiroshima, look at Auschwitz, look at Darfur, look at Dresden, look at Palestine, look at the dark side of your neighborhood. Look at Africa, look at the slums and squattertowns of South America. Look at the slave labour. I don't care if I've been repeating myself, I don't care if you think my posts are poor, I don't care if you think I'm a basketcase. When you think of what makes a person happy - friendship, love, acceptance, a sense of competence, a healthy body, a place in this world, a way to contribute and then you look at the quality of life of 80% of the world's people and measure their life experience to
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs or whatever all I see is suffering and destitute.

Yes, I think the universe and this planet will be better off without humans. I'll put that on my desk you presumptious cocky bastard. I despise your profession, I despise the people who practice your profession, and I despise your comments.

You ****.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 05:56   #31
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Are you suggesting I be disingenuous when I post here, or is this a pathetic attempt to change my perspective on things?
No. It was a pathetic attempt at humor. Lighten up.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 06:03   #32
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Yeah it was real funny. Might want to include a smilie next time when you 'joke.'
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 06:07   #33
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Sorry, too feeble minded to know how to use smilies. As I have mentioned before, I am learning how to do a lot of this stuff. Apparently I have offended you. This was not my intent. I appologize. Sometimes attempts at humor fail. It seems that this attempt was one of those failures. I will be more careful in the future.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 06:55   #34
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
.
what

Last edited by Nodrog; 21 Jul 2005 at 07:04.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 07:51   #35
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

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Originally Posted by s|k
Yeah it was real funny. Might want to include a smilie next time when you 'joke.'

Anger leads to the darkside, dude.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 08:01   #36
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
You think you're clever? You think your post of wit are seen as anything more than daft attempts at two-year-old-like attention grabbing?
I think he was trying to provide people with amusement at your expense. Your reaction to his post is pretty damn funny tbh.

How would you describe your unnessesary personal attacks and follow up anti-humanity rant? Makes me think of a grown man who recently discovered emo type faggotry.

Quote:
I have every justification of behing disheartened by humanity. We're sick. We cut off each others heads, we rape each other, we kill each other by the thousands. We believe in fictional characters that we try to love more than the family and friends that surround us. We lie, we cheat, we try to get ahead at the expense of others. We ignore the enourmous amount of suffering that is happening every waking day around the world. We are corrupt, we are dismal. We suck up and destroy the earth and it's resources and treat it like dirt, we have no respect for this amazing bastion of life in a cold and empty universe. We have no respect for anything, much less each other.
We are designed to do these things and more. So what? 99.9% of creatures that have ever lived on earth are now extinct, and our time may come one day. For now we're still evolving.

Quote:
Yes, I think the universe and this planet will be better off without humans.
I doubt you truly believe this, as you haven't killed yourself yet.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 08:04   #37
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

I think it is a silly question. reproduction is just nature.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 09:04   #38
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
People should be encouraged to indulge themselves in deviant sexual practises from an early age.
Now you're talking.
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 11:17   #39
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

I will answer your three points thus:

1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children? No; Such as certain types of criminals, paedophiles, those detained under the mental health act, people with very low IQ`s who are not mature enough to meet the needs of the child. People with AIDS.
2) Should adults in places where they can`t feed the children continue to have children? Not a good idea, but in places like Africa this situation does n`t seem to stop people having children.
3) Free treatment for infertility? No. Too expensive. Adoption would be an alternative.

Age: 40
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 12:54   #40
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

I'm sorry dda for being a jerk to you for no reason.
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Unread 22 Jul 2005, 17:24   #41
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
There's a difference between "having children" and "looking after children". Some people's children are put on the care register before they're even born, and it's possible to imagine a situation where someone's kids are taken from them because they have been continually abusive, etc.

As Tact says, there could be situations where someone is forcibly sterilised or whatnot, but that's a pretty dangerous route to go down and I'd imagine there's almost always a better option.

Quote:
2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
That's not really upto me, but as Aryn has already said there can be good reasons for having children in poor countries. There is no support network / welfare state for a lot of people outside of the family unit.

Besides, this is an unlikely situation. Very few places are in famine all the time (if they were then people would either move or die) - most of the famine's that occur aren't annual but because of special circumstances like poor/excessive rains or whatnot. It can be very difficult therefore to predict how many children you can support (if people even consciously think about it). You'd also need to quantify what you mean by "feed". Do you mean "keep them alive" or "feed them enough to meet the dietary recommendations in the first world"?

Quote:
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
See Nod / Tact's remarks on "free". But yes - I don't mind paying into a fund part of which goes towards infertility treatments. If a couple are willing to go through all that then they must be reasonably dedicated (which can often make them better potential parents than someone who accidentally falls pregnant).

More generally I don't mind paying for any treatment which returns someone to what could be loosely termed normal (either psychologically or societally speaking). So I don't paying towards someone's sex-change op in certain circumstances, or to remove a birthmark from their face, but I would object to paying for someone to go from 32C => 32G bust size, or to give them a 12" penis or whatever.

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Unread 22 Jul 2005, 19:04   #42
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Are you suggesting I be disingenuous when I post here, or is this a pathetic attempt to change my perspective on things?

You self-righteous old man, you judgmental nitwit. How dare you. You think you're clever? You think your posts of wit are seen as anything more than daft attempts at two-year-old-like attention grabbing? Do your law job and family and personal needs not fulfill your social needs? The summation of your posts has led me to paint a mental picture of you as a feeble minded man. You're a tourist.

I have every justification of being disheartened by humanity. We're sick. We cut off each others heads, we rape each other, we kill each other by the thousands. We believe in fictional characters that we try to love more than the family and friends that surround us. We lie, we cheat, we try to get ahead at the expense of others. We ignore the enormous amount of suffering that is happening every waking day around the world. We are corrupt, we are dismal. We suck up and destroy the earth and it's resources and treat it like dirt, we have no respect for this amazing bastion of life in a cold and empty universe. We have no respect for anything, much less each other.

Phang may say I'm full of cliché’s, and others may say there's good in us, well to both I say look at Nick Berg, look at Hiroshima, look at Auschwitz, look at Darfur, look at Dresden, look at Palestine, look at the dark side of your neighborhood. Look at Africa; look at the slums and squatter towns of South America. Look at the slave labour. I don't care if I've been repeating myself, I don't care if you think my posts are poor, I don't care if you think I'm a basket case. When you think of what makes a person happy - friendship, love, acceptance, a sense of competence, a healthy body, a place in this world, a way to contribute and then you look at the quality of life of 80% of the world's people and measure their life experience to
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs or whatever all I see is suffering and destitute.

Yes, I think the universe and this planet will be better off without humans. I'll put that on my desk you presumptuous cocky bastard. I despise your profession, I despise the people who practice your profession, and I despise your comments.

You ****.
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There, I have corrected your grammer, fixed the crap spelling, now all YOU need to do is insert the word I as opposed to WE.

Kindly get stuffed you overblown egotistical twat
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Unread 22 Jul 2005, 19:05   #43
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
More generally I don't mind paying for any treatment which returns someone to what could be loosely termed normal (either psychologically or societally speaking). So I don't paying towards someone's sex-change op in certain circumstances, or to remove a birthmark from their face, but I would object to paying for someone to go from 32C => 32G bust size, or to give them a 12" penis or whatever.
If someone was exceptionally good looking and intelligent but infertile, would you oppose treatment on the grounds that they were already significantly above normal hence the treatment would move them in the wrong direction along the 'quality of person' axis (or however you're labelling it)? Or are different traits not cumulative, so you'd support a supermodel getting breast implants if she was smaller than average (eg Kate Moss).
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Unread 22 Jul 2005, 21:30   #44
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Or are different traits not cumulative
They're not, but the difference of "below averageness" would need to be fairly marked (and perhaps enough to cause problems in the opinion of doctors or something). It's not really about bringing them up to "standards" on a general / average level ("Hey, you're really stupid so we'll give you a massive cock to make up for it!") but trying to minimise things that can cause individuals stress in our existing society.

Overall I don't see a problem with these things being funded in principle though.

In all likelyhood though you'd probably have some sort of scale of treatments available based on the budget for that year - kind of what happens now with maintenace budgets. At my workplace we don't have the money at present for fences to be repaired - so if a fence get's damaged in one of our properties we don't bother repairing it in previous (and perhaps future) years we have had the budget, so they do get done.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 03:10   #45
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Without bothering to read the whole thread, Ill just give you my opinion.

To have children is a right. To keep them, is a privelege. In other words, anyone should be allowed to have children (its their body, heh). But if they cant take care of them, I dont see a reason why the children should be put through that.

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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 10:46   #46
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Do human rights exist? Children or otherwise. The Vice Chancellor* at the uni I work at genuinely (sp!) believes that human rights do not exist. We all have obligations to each other. We fail each other when we don`t meet these. We have obligations to people, not rights.


* ex-gynaecologist from Southampton.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 00:22   #47
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

well forest spammed this enough in priv for it to warrant a decent reply.

I personnaly feel that children are a reward. You do not have any rights to children, you are simply there to give them a good life and look after them. I would feel that as a human being you should have the morale understanding of what you would be doing having a child.

If you cant look after it or whatever then do what would give the possible child its best chance in life. imo thats all we can do. as for ppl who are in 3rd world countries dying of aids etc, its seems ppl dont understand the culture there. They have alot of children in the hope some survive. and why? so that they can be looked after by them when they grow old.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 00:37   #48
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

[quote=Forest]I am looking into this for a paper I am writing, and gaining feedback from other areas, but I thought it would be interesting to see the census from other social backgrounds.

I am looking at whether adults ahve the right to a child, or whether they should earn that right.
For instance, as much as its very sad that lots of children are dying in africa from starvation, do the parents of these children have to take some responsibility for having children, when they know they cant possibly look after them properly. If that happened in the UK, it could be a child abuse issue.

The three items I would like your opinion on, are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
I would contend that people have no right to children as a basic human right, but that they should be free to have them if they are able without the interference of any agency.

That said, if it turns out that they are not suitable parents, or are bad parents then they should imho have the children removed and be sterilized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
No, definitely not, this last few weeks we have seen quite a number of pictures on our TV sets showing malnourished children, often skin and bone, yet the adults look perfectly healthy and quite well fed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?
There is no such thing as FREE treatment in the UK it has a cost to everyone who pays taxes, frankly I object to this and would rather have the money used for protecting the children we have rather than attempting to produce more for what may well be unsuitable parents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest

Please if you wouldnt mind, could you add at the bottom of your post...
a) Your age
b) Your sex
c) Your location
d) Siblings/only child.
e) If you have children of your own.
a) 46
b) male
c) Leeds West Yorkshire
d) One brother (older) one sister (younger)
e) 3 Children, and 3 Grandchildren.

I would further explain that when I married my wife I never particularly wanted any children, but she was keen, so as it was her that would be the main carer I complied, after the 3rd I had the snip (more for health reasons than to stop having kids).

If I had never had any children, I dont believe it would have bothered me that much, I certainly would be a lot better off as they cost me a fortune and still do.

My wife however would dissagree, she loves kids and would have had a football team if her health had allowed it?
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 17:41   #49
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

1) I think every adult has a natural given right to make babies from a consensual relationship (be that in love or not). Its integral to every ones life cycle, your offspring are your legacy and your core goal in life is to reproduce. We all have that gut instinct inside us all to further the specie ect ect

As for the right to raise a child, well this isn't related to the right to reproduce imo. Just because you can make babies doesnt mean you are fit to raise a child. Things such as child abuse, certainly remove that persons right to raise kids (in our society at least). To be honest, this debate is so large each aspect deserves its own thread. For the sake of generalised commentary, ill end on:

Economics, location & culture should not prevent a couple from reproducing. A person who is considered a danger to others should have relative restrictions put in place. If that means being locked up, having their kids taken away or getting their bits snipped, then so be it. Otherwise, the rest can make as many babies as they choose. If this eventually leads to a strain on their parenting skills, then their society should activate whatever actions it deems necessary, to ensure the child gets the best possible upbringing.

2) Places like Africa certainly have population control issues. There are charities offering free preventative tools but many just arent aware of such things, as they havent had the education others have. For those couples in third world countries who willing reproduce, thats their choice. Hell yeah im sure they know there's a good chance their child wont make it past the first year but children are the definiate symbol of unity & love. Raising a family isnt like investing in a car for such couples, its expected in their society and is something they rejoice in. Even if its like a deathwish, I dont think they would have any regrets at trying. Determination and never giving up, has of course always been apart of human nature.

3) Yes, its not their fault and see 1).

24, Male, England, 2 Brothers & No kids.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 18:04   #50
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Re: Children - A privalege or a right?

Haven't read all the replies at the moment will do that late, but for my bits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest

1) Do all adults deserve a right to have children, or should it be judged on circumstances. What if they give up that right? What constitutes giving up that right (for instance, child abuse, neglect etc).
Assuming you mean 'have children' in the inclusive sense of making your own/adopting etc then as far as im aware you don't have a right to have children (the law can prevent you adopting for example).

Id say that as long as you are judged not to be harmful to children (like paedos), yes you should have and everyone should have the right to have a child.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest

2) Should adults in places where they cant feed children continue to have children, knowing they cant? What are your reasons for this?
The welfare of a child has and always will be secondary to the survival of the human race.

The situation the adult finds themselves in is not of their making, id withhold the right in question #1 when the parent abuses the child or despite having the means and the obligation does not care for the child.

Witholding the right because of circumstances beyond a persons control is

Its difficult to define 'taking care of' 'feed to necessity' etc as long as the parent behaves responsibly with the resources at hand and is caring and not abusive towards the child, id have no problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
3) Should adults in (so-called) civilased countries such as the UK be given free treatment if they are infertile etc? Why?

Yes. They contribute to the National Health Service and should be allowed within reason (3-4 goes etc) to have IVF paid for them. In the other less civilised developed nations without socialist leanings i couldn't really comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Please if you wouldnt mind, could you add at the bottom of your post...
a) Your age
b) Your sex
c) Your location
d) Siblings/only child.
e) If you have children of your own.
25
male
london
one sibling. older sister. complete bitch. but only when in the vicinity. we love each other at a distance.
i have had no children (in both senses)
__________________
Sophie is hotter than you
though ive gone off her now; the way Susanna Reid squirms around on sml is, however, awesome
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