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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 08:40   #1
Dante Hicks
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Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Magic mushrooms ban becomes law

A law banning magic mushrooms and making them a class A drug has come into force.
The Drugs Act 2005 ends the situation in which fresh magic mushrooms were legal but those which were dried or prepared for use were not.

Sellers have condemned the move, saying mushrooms are not harmful and accusing ministers of a knee-jerk reaction.

But the Home Office said the drug was harmful to some users and added the move clarified the existing law.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4691899.stm

Over the last year or so the number of places selling mushrooms has increased quite a bit. In Camden alone there are at least 10 stalls which (until today) sold them openly.

Obviously they are meeting some demand and on an anecdotal basis I'd say I know directly and indirectly at least 100 or so people who have tried them. Although I've heard some people complain of "bad trips" (i.e. feeling psychological unsettled) I've not heard of any serious damage caused. Obviously I don't know of enough people to get a representative sample but if you compare that to the number of people who have had bad experiences on alcohol the difference is quite marked. I'm not aware of any research which ties long-term mushroom use with increased rates of mental illness. Of course, it's irrelevent even if it did - since individuals have the right to damage their own bodies if they wish.

Evem so a quick News Google and search on the BBC site doesn't give a single report of death or serious injury caused by eating magic mushrooms in the United Kingdom. (Most mushroom deaths result from eating poisonous mushrooms freshly picked by amateurs etc).

Anyway, this is a relatively minor development but it's worth noting another example where individuals rights are trampled by a fairly mindless attempt to restrict our own freedoms. I hope this is challenged but I doubt it will be and the net effect will be a lot less places selling a relatively harmless substance available to adults who wish to experience new things.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 18 Jul 2005 at 09:43.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 08:49   #2
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

seems pretty ridiculous. as that chap mentioned, people with mental health problems probably shouldn't be drinking alcohol either. I think the "oh this causes harm to crazy people" is a rather stupid defence really - you could ban almost anything from vampire movies to the bible on such a defence.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 09:53   #3
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

As far as i know, no truely natural drugs can cause overdose. Eg, LSD is a synthised natural substance and you could take 1000 tabs and be ok, as long as your mind could handle it of course. Which is the problem with most natural mind altering drugs, people have trouble when their mind 'trips' and the brain gets confused causing mental damage. Usually only if previous mental damage exists however.

Basically they show your brain a blueprint and tricks it into believing the blueprint is real. Then pass safely through your urine. Just like homeopathic medicines. You could also in theory take LSD and wee it out afterwards and take it again. Never actually tried it or know anyone that has, so in theory only.

Amazing how many legal drugs in small and medium amounts can kill you easily. Eg Alcohol, Tobacco (put a whole bunch of smokes in a glass of water and then drink the water after a while, see how that goes) , yet san pedro cactus (mescaline), mushrooms, LSD and cannabis are all considered worse but in their pure unaltered forms and even in altered forms, they are only harmful to your mind and wont cause lethal overdose. And doing them with people you know to be safe in a safe environment produces fantasmic results.

(note: the author in no ways condones making stupid drug choices such as taking any of these mentioned substances unless you can take responsibility for the results, and always know what your taking and where it will take you)
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 10:27   #4
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

I know someone that did 40g of mushrooms in the space of about 10mins. He was taken to hospital cos he was screaming, crying and convinced he was dead.

But apart from that I dont know any other bad mushroom tales. I did them for a while when I was younger, it was to add to my image.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 10:48   #5
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Deepflow posting in a drugs thread

...

oh ok, ill post some pro drugs vitriol a bit later, wouldnt want you lot to be dissapointed.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 11:20   #6
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Of course, it's irrelevent even if it did - since individuals have the right to damage their own bodies if they wish.
what a curious thing to say


anyhoo.
this is a purely administrative Act. all it does is close a loophole and clarify the existing laws. they were already illegal in dried form and this makes sense. as such it's disingenuous to say things like "it was rushed through the lords" (the drugs campaigner in the article) you never schedule lots of debate time to deal with purely administrative acts like these.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 11:30   #7
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
what a curious thing to say
I don't really see how (if we keep in mind that we use the word 'right' in differing fashions).
Quote:
this is a purely administrative Act.
Like I say, it's a minor development. I am aware of the justification behind the move but this does not change its consequences.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 11:42   #8
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't really see how (if we keep in mind that we use the word 'right' in differing fashions).
so not a legal right ....
do you mean 'moral right'? are you suggesting that someone has a moral right to damage their body as they see fit? that there is something either objectively or subjectively 'good' about self harm?

again.

how curious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Like I say, it's a minor development. I am aware of the justification behind the move but this does not change its consequences.
it stops people exploiting a loophole caused by poor drafting of the original law.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 11:57   #9
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
do you mean 'moral right'? are you suggesting that someone has a moral right to damage their body as they see fit?
Yes.
Quote:
that there is something either objectively or subjectively 'good' about self harm?
I don't really have any strong opinions one way or the other. I don't think "good" is an appropriate term to use in cases like this. But using it I'd say something needn't be "good"* to be a right. I don't view religion as objectively or subjectively "good" but I'd be pretty sickened to live in a society where it was illegal. Similarly, I don't view divorce as a "good" thing in a general sense - I don't want people who are happily married to get divorced for the sake of it, but the right to divorce is of key importance. Of course, all these things (including self-harm or suicide) can be good (or perhaps just the right decision) depending on circumstances.

If you mean if I "approve" in some sense then I don't really care one way or the other.

* = We'd need to define this, but here I'm using it as "something I would want to do / think everyone should do".
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 12:04   #10
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

i think you're confusing a right with an ability.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 12:29   #11
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
i think you're confusing a right with an ability.
I don't think so. You have the ability to murder someone but do not (in most circumstances) the moral right to do so.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 12:29   #12
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

It's purely a matter of linguistics.

People mean different things when they say 'rights'.

Edit: I think Nodrog put it pretty well here.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 13:20   #13
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't think so. You have the ability to murder someone but do not (in most circumstances) the moral right to do so.
your political beliefs pervert the truth.

you haven't actually thought through what you meant by a right. what you wanted to do was to criticise the government (or any government) which takes action to prevent people self harming. in order to do this you had to use the language of 'rights' in order to get accross the idea that governments who do so are some how doing something 'wrong'

the problem is using the language of rights has a wider effect. it would mean saying that any and all action taken by governments to prevent self harm would be an infringement of your 'right to self harm'.

you also don't seem to be able to justify why there should be of right (any definition) to self harm other than:
Quote:
I'd be pretty sickened to live in a society where it was illegal
which is just silly because many things are 'illegal' but that doesn't mean they are criminal and you can make self harm illegal without punishing the self harmer themself if that law is broken.

I think your desire to criticise the gov. over rode your common sense and lead you to saying something very strange indeed.

(oh and there's not that much bloody confusion over what a right is ffs: it's an entitlement. all you have to do is find out what the person using the word 'right' thinks that entitlement is derrived from. in this case i was under no delusions that dante meant 'an entitlement granted by law')
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 13:41   #14
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
the problem is using the language of rights has a wider effect. it would mean saying that any and all action taken by governments to prevent self harm would be an infringement of your 'right to self harm'.
In general they would. But it depends on the specifcs of what you're talking about. I only mentioned self-harm as an aside that it doesn't actually matter that mushrooms could be dangerous.
Quote:
you also don't seem to be able to justify why there should be of right (any definition) to self harm other than
Well in the language of the Libertarian's individuals "own" their bodies. They have the right to do as they wish with their bodies so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others. This goes from suicide downwards to cutting oneself to smoking cigarettes.

Why do individuals not have the right to harm themselves? This seems to be a saner starting point after all - why start with having to justify ones actions? Why do individuals have the right to marry outside their class? Why do individuals have the right to have sex with partners of the same sex? Why do....etc.

Overall I am not really sure where you are coming from - you have asked whether self-harm is "good" which is completely irrelevent imho.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:00   #15
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Well in the language of the Libertarian's individuals "own" their bodies.
this would mean there was a right to self yourself as a slave which the government infringes by out lawing slavery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Overall I am not really sure where you are coming from - you have asked whether self-harm is "good" which is completely irrelevent imho.
I'm just trying you to be honest in your criticism of the banning of narcotics. rights and there understanding is far closer to my heart (and more important to my mind) than your little teenage temper tantrums about drugs.

i'd prefer it therefore if you were intellectually honest and either argued that specific drugs don't cause harm, or that the degree of harm thay cause is a risk you think should be left to individuals: rather than trying to pretend there is a right to self harm.

it's a distinction in your argument you may consider unimportant. but i'm getting bored of the 2 to 3 threads a week we get where people try and find different, and increasingly perverse, arguments in favour of legalising drugs. when all they are really doing is crying because they live in a society and hence don't get to do whatever the **** they want all of the time.

EDIT: i suppose a brief summary is - misuse the language of rights and i'll show why you're wrong. be honest and just have a good moan about the government stopping you taking drugs (it's so unfair, boo hoo, etc etc) and i'll ignore you.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:10   #16
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
this would mean there was a right to self yourself as a slave which the government infringes by out lawing slavery
Yeah, but it doesn't infringe the right to own somebody else as a slave against their wishes, as this doesn't exist.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:10   #17
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
this would mean there was a right to self yourself as a slave which the government infringes by out lawing slavery
Yes. A person has a right to sell themselves into slavery if they wish, but they also have the right to break such an arrangement immediately (thus rendering the whole business irrelevent). But that has little or nothing to do with the issue at hand. It is important to see the "" around "own" because this is not a traditional property arrangement, merely putting it in terms you might comprehend without getting over-excited.
Quote:
i'd prefer it therefore if you were intellectually honest and either argued that specific drugs don't cause harm, or that the degree of harm thay cause is a risk you think should be left to individuals: rather than trying to pretend there is a right to self harm.
So you still haven't argued why there isn't such a right? Or rather you've not argued why "you" have the right to interfere with what individuals put in their body because you feel you know best.

btw : You can paint this as some sort of perverse self-interest if you wish, but I do not actually enjoy mushrooms. They are fairly horrid and I have no real desire to take them. Not that that is relevent in any sense.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:11   #18
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
this would mean there was a right to self yourself as a slave which the government infringes by out lawing slavery
Selling yourself as a slave is a crimininal offence?

I'd image buying would be outlawed, but selling?
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:13   #19
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes. A person has a right to sell themselves into slavery if they wish, but they also have the right to break such an arrangement immediately (thus rendering the whole business irrelevent).

but you aren't really a slave then are you? you aren't actually that person't property and of course you are not bound to obedience. you can call yourself a slave if you like, but you aren't really one. That sort of right sounds a bit like "the right for a man to have babies" in The Life of Brian, only less so.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:18   #20
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes. A person has a right to sell themselves into slavery if they wish, but they also have the right to break such an arrangement immediately
so not selling at all then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But that has little or nothing to do with the issue at hand. It is important to see the "" around "own" because this is not a traditional property arrangement, merely putting it in terms you might comprehend without getting over-excited.
so far we've got right, sell, and own in our list of words you've decided have a "secret meaning"

why not just right "watermellon" for your next post. then you can claim that has a 'special meaning' that only you understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
So you still haven't argued why there isn't such a right?
i'm waiting for you to say where the right to self harm derrives from. and then explain how it functions in conjunction with other rights. during my patient wait i've been demonstrating where you are likely to fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Or rather you've not argued why "you" have the right to interfere with what individuals put in their body because you feel you know best.
I refuse to play psuedo father to your harry enfield impression.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:21   #21
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
but you aren't really a slave then are you? you aren't actually that person't property and of course you are not bound to obedience. you can call yourself a slave if you like, but you aren't really one.
This is kind of the point.

Quote:
That sort of right sounds a bit like "the right for a man to have babies" in The Life of Brian, only less so.
Well rights are NOT abilities that's the point. Men do have the "right" to have babies in the abstract sense, they simply lack the ability (it'd be very strange to say that a woman who was sterile didn't have the "right" to have babies, or cripples did not have the right to walk). If in the future evolutionary processes / genetic engineering / whatever meant men could have babies then any law restricting them from having them would be immoral*.

* = Having babies is a bit more complicated as there is another "potential" individual involved, but presuming everything else was "normal". It's possible to imagine a situation where someone designed a baby that would be in constant suffering/pain which wouldn't be as clear cut obviously.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 18 Jul 2005 at 14:31.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:30   #22
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes. A person has a right to sell themselves into slavery if they wish, but they also have the right to break such an arrangement immediately (thus rendering the whole business irrelevent).
And the contract would stipulate the penalties they incur for doing so.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:30   #23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is kind of the point.
aah, so they have the right but not the ability, I think I am a bit clearer now. I have never really got this thing about rights, it seems more about what one can get away with than anything else. do you think the following explains it pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right

Quote:
Well rights are NOT abilities that's the point. Men do have the "right" to have babies in the abstract sense, they simply lack the ability (it'd be very strange to say that a woman who was sterile didn't have the "right" to have babies. If in the future evolutionary processes / genetic engineering / whatever meant men could have babies then any law restricting them from having them would be immoral*.

* = Having babies is a bit more complicated as there is another "potential" individual involved, but presuming everything else was "normal". It's possible to imagine a situation where someone designed a baby that would be in constant suffering/pain which wouldn't be as clear cut obviously.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:30   #24
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
so not selling at all then.
If you don't think that's selling then no. I'd say it is selling. A football player can be said to be bought and sold, yet he is not a slave. This is hardly complicated is it?
Quote:
why not just right "watermellon" for your next post. then you can claim that has a 'special meaning' that only you understand.
If you don't understand anything I've said I'm happy to re-explain it. It's common when people are coming at problems from different angles / approaches that things can be confusing.
Quote:
i'm waiting for you to say where the right to self harm derrives from. and then explain how it functions in conjunction with other rights. during my patient wait i've been demonstrating where you are likely to fail.
I have already said this here and elsewhere. Human beings, by merit of their nature (consciousness, sentience or however else you wish to put it) are endowned with certain inalienable rights. Key amongst these rights...well, you get the idea.

The key principle among these rights is self-determination (or "ownership" or "control" or "sovereignty" or whatever else term you wish to use - there are many which in this context are nearly synonomous - use whichever you feel most comfortable with). You have the right to swing your arms up until the end of my nose, as the old saying goes. You certainly have the right to swing your arms up and smash yourself in the face as often as you wish.

There are peripheral issues (shouting fire in a crowded theatre and so forth) but that's the basic idea.

To re-emphasise I am using rights here only to refer to "negative-rights" to use Isiah Berlin's terminology. There are other positive rights which can be established under contract (individual or social or whatever) but I do not think it is helpful to use the term right in this context. I'd prefer to use entitlement or statutory benefit or something along those lines.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:37   #25
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
i think you're confusing a right with an ability.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 14:44   #26
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
Edit: I think Nodrog put it pretty well here.
For the record, I would disagree with this now.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 15:01   #27
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
(not right, but ability)
I don't have any idea how you can still hold that misconception. It just doesn't tally with what he's said.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 15:10   #28
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't have any idea how you can still hold that misconception. It just doesn't tally with what he's said.
he's used the term right for a specific purpose.

he wanted to show that by infringing it the government had done something wrong. do you follow?
he needed to say: I have a right. The government has stoped that right. therefore the government is bad.

In order to say those 3 propositions he needs a definition of right that means entitlement. If you have a definition of right that means ability (despite being a gross and unnecessary perversion of the english language) then your proposition fails. do you follow?

1) I am entitled. The government has stoped that entitlement. therefore the government is bad.
2) I am able. The government has stopped that ability = the government is neither good nor bad.

however he then goes on
Quote:
You have the right to swing your arms up until the end of my nose, as the old saying goes. You certainly have the right to swing your arms up and smash yourself in the face as often as you wish.
to define 'right' as anything you are able to do. regardless of entitlement.

thus exposing himself to two logical phalacies
a) his original use of the word right (using his own definition) now makes no sense.
b) a right is clearly not an ability, because there are many things which i am able to do which i do not have the right to do (morally or legally).

he touches on the second problem here:
Quote:
There are peripheral issues (shouting fire in a crowded theatre and so forth) but that's the basic idea.
where he stumbles accross that fact that if he keeps typing his definition is going to fall apart.

do you follow?
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 15:15   #29
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You have the right to swing your arms up until the end of my nose, as the old saying goes. You certainly have the right to swing your arms up and smash yourself in the face as often as you wish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
to define 'right' as anything you are able to do. regardless of entitlement.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 15:18   #30
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

irrelevant point:

Dante Hicks:

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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 15:28   #31
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

I'm pretty sure they got banned in April not now so why the sudden "wahhh"?!
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 16:04   #32
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
to define 'right' as anything you are able to do. regardless of entitlement.
No he doesn't. You're either willfully misinterpreting, or making mistakes.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 16:27   #33
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
I'm pretty sure they got banned in April not now so why the sudden "wahhh"?!
Maybe it was missed then. The law only came into force/changed slightly today, so today is as relevant a time to post it.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:21   #34
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
Maybe it was missed then. The law only came into force/changed slightly today, so today is as relevant a time to post it.
the law was passed to come into effect a few months later. The NME festivals guide was quite outraged about it all.

Anyway. Mushrooms have very few serious side-effects or negative consequences beyond the usual problems that arise from addiction. Dante's initial comparison to alcohol was flawed because of the greater popularity of alcohol, coupled with the far greater quantity and frequency with which it is drunk, but I digress. Insofar as the criminalisation of drugs is legitimate it surely applies only to a very few substances which frequently cause serious and immediate harm to the user and more importantly those around them (so heroin and perhaps crack and LSD) - magic mushrooms do not appear to fall into this category and it seems completely unreasonable to be tightening up on them as opposed to relaxing the laws in place.

And Yahwe is mostly wrong in this thread.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:29   #35
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Of course you have a right to harm yourself? why on earth wouldn't you? Do you not own your body, and are you not allowed to harm anything you own?

Whether all these people harming themselves for whatever reason (although with mushrooms and other drugs it is almost purely for "kicks", and there are very few better reasons than this) are actually harmed or not is their business. Someone should have the right to do whatever they want with their own body, from a purely moral standpoint. It's a fairly simple thing to grasp, even if you don't agree with it by coming from some absurd nanny state position.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:45   #36
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

my oh my the druggies didn't bother to try and read my argument

oh dear they think i said lots of things i didn't

oh noes they're throwing 'wittel tantwums' about not being able to do what they want and stomping their feet and blaming me.

thank god for overdoses.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:48   #37
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Of course you have a right to harm yourself? why on earth wouldn't you? Do you not own your body, and are you not allowed to harm anything you own?

Whether all these people harming themselves for whatever reason (although with mushrooms and other drugs it is almost purely for "kicks", and there are very few better reasons than this) are actually harmed or not is their business. Someone should have the right to do whatever they want with their own body, from a purely moral standpoint. It's a fairly simple thing to grasp, even if you don't agree with it by coming from some absurd nanny state position.
I'd accept the right to harm yourself so long as you caused no greater strain on the health service. Feel free to take drugs, but dont expect the nhs to help when you overdose.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:49   #38
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceres
I'd accept the right to harm yourself so long as you caused no greater strain on the health service. Feel free to take drugs, but dont expect the nhs to help when you overdose.
This is absolutley fine with me.

Although if we're going that direction we may as well include people who are overweight, smokers, drinkers, people who didn't look both ways when crossing the road, any kind of sporting injury, etc.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:52   #39
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
my oh my the druggies didn't bother to try and read my argument

oh dear they think i said lots of things i didn't

oh noes they're throwing 'wittel tantwums' about not being able to do what they want and stomping their feet and blaming me.

thank god for overdoses.
I think they're currently feeling the same way towards you.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:52   #40
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is absolutley fine with me.

Although if we're going that direction we may as well include people who are overweight, smokers, drinkers, people who didn't look both ways when crossing the road, any kind of sporting injury, etc.
if we're negotiating over these things then they're not inherent rights are they????
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:53   #41
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
if we're negotiating over these things then they're not inherent rights are they????
What things? Free health care isn't a right imho if that's what you're getting at.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 17:54   #42
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is absolutley fine with me.

Although if we're going that direction we may as well include people who are overweight, smokers, drinkers, people who didn't look both ways when crossing the road, any kind of sporting injury, etc.
Let's use a bit of common sense and just say anything that is likely to cause harm, you can hardly predict a sporting injury.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 18:00   #43
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceres
Let's use a bit of common sense and just say anything that is likely to cause harm, you can hardly predict a sporting injury.
It depends on the sport I guess. It's hardly shocking if you are injured when boxing is it? And most overdoses are unpredictable too (well, in a certain context). I was merely outlining the argument (I believe) the BMA uses against "self-inflicted" injuries being excluded from free treatment.

For the record I support free health care for anybody, including people who do things to harm themselves. I don't really mind paying for such things, although it'd be nice if they were voluntary. At the same time, I don't really mind if the NHS refuse to treat me if I do have an OD. These things happen and I am aware of the risk.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 18:01   #44
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
What things? Free health care isn't a right imho if that's what you're getting at.
you are qualifying the thing negotiating over when it is and is not acceptable. thereby creating a new thing.

If you say "there's an inherent right to self harm" and then say "but you can't do it in these circumstances" what you are saying is "there is no right to self harm except in these circumstances"

so there is no right to self harm. no inalienable right given by the fact that we are human beings blah blah blah and all the other crap you've been saying.

thus when you accused the government of interfering with that right they weren't doing so.

and all day i've spent trying to get it accross to you you've been ignoring it.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 18:05   #45
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you are qualifying the thing negotiating over when it is and is not acceptable. thereby creating a new thing.
"Acceptable" is not a term I'd use in this context, as I've said before. I never said these "things" were or weren't acceptable. (edit : If by acceptable you mean 'good' or 'desirable' I mean. If you meant acceptable as in 'allowable' then obviously they are acceptable)
Quote:
If you say "there's an inherent right to self harm" and then say "but you can't do it in these circumstances" what you are saying is "there is no right to self harm except in these circumstances"
No, I am saying there is a right to self-harm, but it seems reasonable that you won't necessarily be assisted by myself (or others) with the consequences of such an action. In actual fact I will try to help you out because I'm a nice guy and that, but I don't think everyone else will want to.

Similarly, you have the right to spend all your money on gin, or give it to charity, or bet it all on 36-Red, but it seems a different proposition to expect people to help you out when you've ****ed up.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 18:08   #46
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceres
Let's use a bit of common sense and just say anything that is likely to cause harm, you can hardly predict a sporting injury.
taking drugs is not likely to cause harm brainiac.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 18:16   #47
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Its cool there still legal in Ireland! I dont think this law will effect any hardcore mushy heads since most pick there own!

Still tho Class A is still a bit silly should Class C fine/slap on the wrist
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 01:12   #48
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Has anyone informed the Mushrooms ?
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 06:57   #49
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

An inalienable right would be a right which cannot be taken away or transfered. There is an inalienable right to die. I can't think of another right which can't be taken away or transfered. There is no inalienable right to pick your time of death because someone can take that away from you by keeping you alive beyond the time you wish to die. However, you will someday beat the bastards and die any way. Thus the right to die is inalienable.

I work in a field where I see people, or what used to be people, who have had very large holes blown in their rights. This takes away all of a persons rights except for the right to die as mentioned above.

The rights we have are those which the society we live in chose to allow us. When people talk about their rights they talk about either those things they are allowed to do or those things that they would like to be allowed to do.

Agreements within society and from society to society change and with them rights.

Thus, I think the actual complaint is, "They are tinkering with the social compact in a way I don't approve of and I wish they would see things more my way. I would like to be entitled to gnosh down on mushrooms if I am in the mood to do so. Where's the harm?"
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 00:42   #50
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Re: Magic Mushrooms Banned in UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The rights we have are those which the society we live in chose to allow us. When people talk about their rights they talk about either those things they are allowed to do or those things that they would like to be allowed to do.
Normally they talk about what they should be allowed to do. I'm sure many people would like to be allowed to kill those who annoyed them, while also believing that they had no right to do this. It's this normative 'should' statement that is the grounding for rights - the concept of 'rights' is a tool by which ethical standards are implemented in politics and law.
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