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Unread 8 Jul 2005, 15:44   #51
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Radical Edward
wasn't there that idea about seeding large areas of ocean with iron or some other mineral in order to stimulate growth of microorganisms, which would then sink and carry away lots of carbon. there were quite a few interesting ideas for carbon sinks that I have heard of.
That costs money though, which has to come from somewhere. Under this system, that is.
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Unread 8 Jul 2005, 16:29   #52
Tactitus
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
What radical changes? MrL said we should be "dealing with the problem". He didn't say "Let's end industrial production" or "Stop Capitalism Now". So what exactly are you referring to?
But what is meant by 'dealing with the problem'?

If you actually want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions then you'll need something far more radical than even Kyoto--Kyoto would only slow the rate of increase; and that's if all the industrialized nations adopt it and meet their targets (the later looks to be especially problematic since few of the countries that have already adopted Kyoto are even close to meeting their targets).

If 'dealing with the problem' means signing treaties that won't accomplish anything or some government subsidies for wind power or some such nonsense then sure, we can do that; but then we've essentially redefined 'dealing with the problem' as 'not dealing with the problem.'
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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think nod can be forgiven, partially, because I can't think of any ways off the top of my head of combatting GW without giving industry a hit - fairly obviously.

Of course, given that we really should be weaning ourselves off burning hydrocarbons anyway, a bit of added impetus in the form of governmental support wouldn't go amiss.
A large-scale switch to nuclear power would allow greenhouse gas emissions to be reduced while maintaining industrial growth, but I don't see much chance of that happening (at least not until the hyrdocarbons run out and we no longer have a choice).
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Unread 8 Jul 2005, 20:41   #53
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
But what is meant by 'dealing with the problem'?
That is still under consideration. The answer certainly isn't Kyoto. But I'm even more certain the answer isn't "do nothing" which is the response you're left with if you take too much of this "environmentalism is leftism" stuff seriously.
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 01:26   #54
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That is still under consideration. The answer certainly isn't Kyoto. But I'm even more certain the answer isn't "do nothing" which is the response you're left with if you take too much of this "environmentalism is leftism" stuff seriously.
You need to tell that to the environmentalists because I didn't hear too many of them coming out against Kyoto (which is more about redistribution of wealth then helping the environment). They need to decide if they're going to work for the environment or bash wealth and capitalism (and if they don't see a distinction then yes, they will be lumped in with the 'lefties').
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 05:17   #55
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

I love environmentalists.

Locally, environmentalists have ranted on about getting polution free power sources. So over the past number of years, wind farms have grown up on the hillsides between here and San Francisco.

Now the environmentalists are complaining that the windmills are killing migratory birds and should be shut down.

If we were to succeed in stopping global warming, they would start to complain about global cooling no doubt.
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 05:38   #56
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

oh for goodness sake

how often do (right wingers isn't the phrase given american politics in which your choices are1)right wing, 2) right of right wing) so let's use the phrase 'short sighted industrialists'; have to prattle on?

we know nothing we say or do will stop you ****s polluting the ****ing planet.

we know we can't stop man made climate change because you ****ers won't let us

fine

i'll buy my next house on top of a hill

but must you wankers go on and on and on pretending there is no such thing?

can't you at least have the basic human decency to say "we know it's a problem. but stopping it would make us a little bit poorer and we are too ****ing selfish to bother"

even if you can't. at least keep quiet. for god's sake
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 05:53   #57
Dante Hicks
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Tact
You need to tell that to the environmentalists because I didn't hear too many of them coming out against Kyoto (which is more about redistribution of wealth then helping the environment).
I think the issue here (and one that I have some sympathy for in general) is it's a lot easier to campaign for something which exists (even if flawed) than pursue a better but non-existent approach. Kyoto is horribly flawed and I've yet to find someone genuinely concerned about global warming who thinks Kyoto is at the very best a step in the right direction. Of course, not everyone instinctively rejects "redsitrubtion" as a reflex reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I love environmentalists.
That's because saying "the environmentalists" in that kind of context is singularly unhelpful. What does it even mean? People who are concerned with the environment? Well, that's me for one. And I presume most people. I would be worried if someone had absolutley no conception of "the natural world" and our interactions with it in their political philosophy somewhere.

Of course, lots of movements are broad churches. Some Christian's disagree with other Christians. Marxists disagree with Marxists. "Capitalists" argue with...and so on. But unlike some of these group, "the environmentalists" share no common source text, or even collection of attitudes.

Usually when people say "the environmentalists" they are referring to people whose concern about environmental damage forms a central plank in their politics. But saying anything more than that is a bit silly. Even then you'd be lumping together my Environmental Politics lecturer at Uni (who was an arch-capitalist and thought everything could be solved by market mechanisms alone), neo-pagan fascists and the quasi-Social Democrats who form the core of many of Europe's Green Parties.
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 10:57   #58
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
What radical changes?
Any meaningful moves towards ending pollution are going to involve fairly radical changes to industry, particularly in so-called 'developing' countries. This is one of the more ironic things about environmentalists marching with the 'lets help Africa!' mob - the 2 goals are fairly incompatabile. Africa improving is going to necessarily result in a lot more pollution, and the same applies to most other countries which are further behind than America and Europe.

Quote:
On your earlier points, by concentrating on who is opposing/supporting something you are missing the point somewhat. It doesn't really matter if the most vocal opponents of smoking are leftist statist politically correct single mother black lesbians who want to take our rights and burn the flag. It doesn't matter if most people who go on about environmentalism are anti-meat eating hippies. This doesn't strengthen or weaken the arguments themselves.
.
But the arguments are entirely inconclusive, thats the point. When there's no real evidence either way, an examination of the psychological motivations of the arguers on each side is probably the most interesting (and really, the only possible) way of approaching the problem. Even in this thread, its the people who I would generally associate with the 'left' (you, Jakiri, Tocatta, Yahwe) who seem to be supporters of Kyoto (and in the extreme case of Jakiri, he cheerfully admits he finds 'evidence' to be an irrelevant concept, which makes his real motives fairly transparent), whereas those who are fairly capitalistic (Tacitus, me) seem to be the ones who oppose it.

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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 11:21   #59
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
IThat's because saying "the environmentalists" in that kind of context is singularly unhelpful. What does it even mean? People who are concerned with the environment? Well, that's me for one. And I presume most people. I would be worried if someone had absolutley no conception of "the natural world" and our interactions with it in their political philosophy somewhere.
I would broadly use the term 'enviornmentalist' to refer to anyone who wants to use governmental force to institute fairly significant policies aimed at protecting or improving the natural environment. The main schism within this category would be between those who are motivated by a dislike of humanity/capitalism/America and want nature to be preserved because of its 'intrinsic' value, for its own sake, or because they view humanity as being a cancer on the world (one of my flatmates last year actually told me that he "liked trees more than people"), and those who are motivated by genuine fear that our actions are going to have negative consequences for us in the future. In my opinion, those in the former group are hardly worth talking to, whereas those in the latter group sometimes raise legitimate concerns.
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 18:47   #60
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
No doubt people wil always complain, so what? Do you genuinely harbour dreams of some utopian state where everything is perfect and no one raises any objections?
Fragmentation is the point. In the general perception, those who would protect the environment continually discredit themselves in the popular mind by seeming to be against everything. At least in California, they seem to be against things just to be against things. So, until they change their image or the polar ice caps melt, it is going to be very difficult for them to get any traction. Pollution, because it makes it hard to breathe, is not a particularly hard sell in California. The world is coming to an end as we know it is a harder sell. Global warming is a fact. Unfortunately, the same science that tells us that it is a fact also tells us that it isn't the first time and that the other times were before man was a possible factor. Can the scientists guarantee that there will be a slow in global warming if we follow Kyoto? It doesn't seem that they can. I would like to see a drop in emissions from industrial and personal uses. However, I want that independent of global warming. The way they are going about it the environmentalist groups might as well all walk around carrying signs that say, "Prepare. The end of the world is near!" Maybe it is, but that isn't the way to sell it.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 10:55   #61
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Any meaningful moves towards ending pollution are going to involve fairly radical changes to industry, particularly in so-called 'developing' countries
Radical changes to industry does not imply "end capitalism" or even severely retard growth. Hell, the answer could be to dramatically increase growth as quickly as we possibly can so we'll be non-hydrocarbon dependent when they "run out" (or become extremely uneconomic). Again, you're creating a false dichotomy between do nothing and end economic growth (which incidentally is the same dichotomy the more loony "environmentalists" want to present).
Quote:
This is one of the more ironic things about environmentalists marching with the 'lets help Africa!' mob - the 2 goals are fairly incompatabile.
I would say this is utter rubbish, or only applies in the short-term. There are plenty of ways to "help Africa" anyway, so this seems fairly simplistic. I mean, providing assistance to African family planning services to enable countries to reduce / stabalise their population would be fairly helpful and would hardly destroy the environment.
Quote:
But the arguments are entirely inconclusive, thats the point. When there's no real evidence either way
Either way once again implies there's two positions, which is rather disenguous. Let's be clear here. There is climate change ocurring. This is pretty much accepted by anyone who is non-insane. Now, it could be entirely within some sort of cycle the Earth "naturally" exists in anyway, but in one sense that won't actually matter. If Bangladesh faces severe floods for years at a time due to water levels changing then I guess the people affected won't really give a shit whether it was natural or not.

Of course, it does make a big different to what we should do. And at this point yes, the evidence is inconclusive in a sense. We don't know to what extent our actions contribute to climate change and over what time period and so forth. However, it is my understanding that the vast majority of scientists are agreed that human pollution is contributing / worsening climate change. That does seem relatively conclusive. What form the change will take, who will be affected, what we should do - sure these are all still not clear. But that is different from saying we don't know anything. We're kind of where we were with smoking related diseases thirty or forty years ago maybe. We knew tobacco affected health and we knew it almost certainly wasn't good. However, we didn't necessarily know the mechanisms it did this, or what the end results would be, what diseases would be increased, etc.

Now in either case, while it is fair enough to say we don't necessarily know all the facts, it seems stupid to just say "Oh well, let's do nothing".
Quote:
an examination of the psychological motivations of the arguers on each side is probably the most interesting (and really, the only possible) way of approaching the problem.
To me, the psychological motivation of people who post about this subject on internet forums is pretty irrelevent. If we are to examine psychological motivation then looking at the scientists who have actually studied these questions directly seems more rewarding. Sure if Dr Smith opposes Kyoto and works for BP or Shell I'd be dubious and if Dr Jones supports Kyoto while being a member of the "I hate ze Capitalists" party then you might have a point, but I doubt every case is that clear cut.

Quote:
I would broadly use the term 'enviornmentalist' to refer to anyone who wants to use governmental force to institute fairly significant policies aimed at protecting or improving the natural environment.
Any definition is fine enough if it is used consistently I guess, but I am not fond of this one
1. As with most of your politics it is crudely obsessed with government vs non-government. Not all of politics is about the government.

2. It means a whole range of environmental positions and politics are unrepresented. There are plenty of environmentalists who don't want government to even exist, and want us to return to nature or something equally crazy through everyone merely abandoning factories and cities etc. According to your definition, these people are not environmentalists.

Similarly in the documentary film "The Corporation" (forgive me if you have seen it) there is a CEO of some multinational (I think it was of the world's largest carpet company or something) who was obsessed with cutting his companies ecological footprint. All his corporate policies were about keeping profitability but cutting pollution, energy use, etc. Again, according to your definition this is not being an environmentalist - which seems unsatisfactory to me.

Which leads to me a quick question. Let us imagine that we are living in a Nodrog-friendly political system. Let's imagine some event took place which meant in say, 1960, the welfare state was abolished, private property rights enshrined across Europe, government scaled back to the very minimum and so forth. We'll also imagine this has worked wonderfully and enjoys the support of, say, 95% of the population.

The government now exists purely as an end arbriter in disputes between individuals, contract mediator, copyright-enforcer, very limited anti-monopoly functions and a basic police force. All other functions are carried out by the government. How would an issue like climate change be tackled? Clearly the population could not contain "environmentalists" in your traditional sense since the government simply does not do that sort of thing. Or would you imagine everyting to be tackled through law suits (e.g. insurance companies vs carbon-emitters etc)?
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 11:21   #62
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
who seem to be supporters of Kyoto (and in the extreme case of Jakiri, he cheerfully admits he finds 'evidence' to be an irrelevant concept, which makes his real motives fairly transparent),
I'm laughing at you right now. I must assume that you're trolling, because I didn't think you were this stupid.

1. Who said I supported Kyoto? Because it wasn't me.

2. Who said that I found "evidence" to be irrelevent? Because it wasn't me.

"Evidence" is not irrelevent. There is substantial evidence for artificial climate change you buffoon - and I believe that there is sufficient.

You must be confused when I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Doesn't matter in an issue of this magnitude. If we're wrong, then we're doomed, basically. A form of pascal's wager should imply that dealing with the problem is the way to go.
because I was referring to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The problem is that (afaik) the data doesnt really establish any particular conclusion
It doesn't matter what you think, because there is a significant number of significant people who do think there is sufficient evidence - which must establish artificial climate change as a real possibility, one that we can't afford to ignore.

[edit]

I also find it extremely insulting that you're grouping me with the "former" group you mentioned (implicitly, at least). **** you mang.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 10 Jul 2005 at 11:31.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 11:30   #63
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Fragmentation is the point.
I'd disagree with this. "Fragmentation" would only be an issue if it was a unified group that split - whereas it's fairly obvious that many "environmentalists" aren't even from the same intellectual traditions, let alone same "original" movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
In the general perception, those who would protect the environment continually discredit themselves in the popular mind by seeming to be against everything.
That's because people are stupid. If half the population was against banning cars, and half the population was for banning cars, then either way you'll have half the population protesting against you, and to the simple minded it may appear that people aren't consistent in their beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
At least in California, they seem to be against things just to be against things.
I didn't read your post beforehand, so this interesting juxtaposition is merely coincidental.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Can the scientists guarantee that there will be a slow in global warming if we follow Kyoto? It doesn't seem that they can.
Kyoto's a big pile of shite. There's not much that can be guaranteed from it, and slowing down global warming is not one of them.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 13:06   #64
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That costs money though, which has to come from somewhere. Under this system, that is.
I suppose so, but it doesn't punce industry. since you only need to supply a few ppm to get quite a reasonable bloom. anyway, none of it really matters because Jesus is coming back soon.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 16:49   #65
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's because people are stupid. If half the population was against banning cars, and half the population was for banning cars, then either way you'll have half the population protesting against you, and to the simple minded it may appear that people aren't consistent in their beliefs.
1. The proper hypo for my point would be that half of the people were for banning cars; also for banning bicycles; trains; airplains, walking or falling down the stairs. That they appear to be against everything.

2. The fact that people who are pro environment treat everyone else as if they ARE stupid just makes them seem elitist and does nothing to further their cause. Sometimes, if you truly favor a cause you have to find the BEST way to further that cause, not just the most personally satisfying.

Unfortuantly, that's where politics comes in and the green group are sadly inept in this area.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 17:21   #66
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
people who are pro environment
i'm giggling like a loon at this phrase.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 17:25   #67
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Unfortuantly, that's where politics comes in and the green group are sadly inept in this area.
you speak as though there was some kind of innate magical skill which makes someone a good politician.

the only skill involved in democracy is in telling people what they want to hear.

telling people this = success

no one, or hardly anyone, in America wants to be told they can't have air conditioning on 24s, that they can't go on using cars which are horrenduously inefficient with fuel and that their next big mac can't come in a polystyrine boz.

they don't want to hear it.

and hence the serious environmental issues are unpopular. it's utterly disingenuous to suggest that it is the fault of anyone who wishes to address climate change.

the problem is a spoilt populous who only want to act like selfish children and generation after generation of spineless politicians who are more concerned with being in power than with actually being in charge.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 18:38   #68
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you speak as though there was some kind of innate magical skill which makes someone a good politician.

the only skill involved in democracy is in telling people what they want to hear.

telling people this = success

no one, or hardly anyone, in America wants to be told they can't have air conditioning on 24s, that they can't go on using cars which are horrenduously inefficient with fuel and that their next big mac can't come in a polystyrine boz.

they don't want to hear it.

and hence the serious environmental issues are unpopular. it's utterly disingenuous to suggest that it is the fault of anyone who wishes to address climate change.

the problem is a spoilt populous who only want to act like selfish children and generation after generation of spineless politicians who are more concerned with being in power than with actually being in charge.
In that case, there are two choices:

Quit whining that it hurts when you bang your head into the wall.

Or, find a palatable way of packaging what you are selling.

Telling people they are bad or foolish or both if they don't agree with you doesn't work very well here. Maybe in some countries, though I doubt it.

You have to make the basic decision as to whether you want to make your point or win your point. To date, most of the emphasis amongst protesters seems to be making their point.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 20:23   #69
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
In that case, there are two choices:

Quit whining that it hurts when you bang your head into the wall.

Or, find a palatable way of packaging what you are selling.

Telling people they are bad or foolish or both if they don't agree with you doesn't work very well here. Maybe in some countries, though I doubt it.

You have to make the basic decision as to whether you want to make your point or win your point. To date, most of the emphasis amongst protesters seems to be making their point.

we in europe have a third way

basically we've got a **** load of booze and we're going to drink it. then we're going to make jokes about americans.

then we plan to drink some more.

it's a far better plan than single handedly educating a selfish foreign power with an average mental age of 3 and a half.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 20:39   #70
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Precisely why we don't bother with folks from Oxford.

By the by, all of this liquor you are drinking.....reminds me of a question which has been on my mind to ask for a while.

The Irish have given us Irish Whiskey.

The Scotts have given us Scotch Whiskey.

The English have given us gin? Juniper berries? Are the English ashamed of their produce to the point of not being willing to call it English such or is Gin as close to spelling English as one can get after consuming the filthy beverage?
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Last edited by dda; 11 Jul 2005 at 20:50. Reason: another thought
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Unread 12 Jul 2005, 00:06   #71
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

there's only scotch whisky. that's whisky.

'irish' whisky gains the prefix irish as part of natural british politeness/shame.

"do have some (pause) Irish (pause) whisky" or "really? you'd like whisky? I'm afraid i've only got Irish..."

then there is bourbon.

when saying bourbon (pronounced barbon) it is customary to wince ever so slightly and then blink at least 3 times (in order to disguise the wince). covering your mouth with your hand is optional.

I've so much knowledge to impart
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Unread 12 Jul 2005, 05:50   #72
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Canadian whiskey?
Rye whiskey?
Sour mash whiskey?

Any special rules for these?

Are these rules applicable to pregnant women who don't have tickets?
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Unread 12 Jul 2005, 09:58   #73
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think nod can be forgiven, partially, because I can't think of any ways off the top of my head of combatting GW without giving industry a hit - fairly obviously.
A large increase in Investment (particularly governmental initially, but ideally a greater amount by the sector in time) in "green" technology - be they renewable energy sources, research funds into other alternatives (such as hydrogen and fusion [yes, i know fusion has been promised as the be-all and end-all solution to mankind's energy problems since the 60's - but climate change is a long-term problem and its only prudent to invest in long-term solutions for energy needs]) wouldnt directly (adversely) affect industry. Indeed, such a measure would increase Aggregate Demand in the immediate term, thus have a stimulatory effect on the economy, and once the technology reaches fruition then that would shift Aggregate Supply out which is incredibly useful for combatting inflation - however the reason this isnt done is because of economic and political considerations.

In the US at least, where there is already a massive fiscal defecit (ie, the government spending more than it earns through taxation), increasing this deficit will have adverse effects on inflation and the major problems that has on the economy in the short and medium run (such as increasing unemployment, decreasing profitability and increasing economic uncertainty which lead to financial instability etc etc). However, these problems will only surface if a rather large amount of resources are diverted to research/investment in green technology. The problem is, there (apparently) needs to be a large amount of money spent in this area in order to 'fix' the 'problem' before its 'too late'. Similarly, with this carrot (increasing Investment), there is also the stick (increasing Taxation) in the form of petrol taxes being increased by ~5 times etc to 1) fund the investment, and 2) further encourage private research and development into new and alternative forms of energy, and 3) in the short term, "strongly encourage" measures to conserve energy. Thus, HSV V8 Utes would be out in favour of Prius etc .

In Australia, political constraints exist. Currently, the Commonwealth is running a fiscal surplus (revenue > expenditure) - however in Australia's political climate, running a fiscal defecit is synonymous with poor management of the economy as a whole (Keynesian economists would strongly disagree, but the australian public are not economists - sadly). Further, there is considerable specific interests with regards to Coal producers in australia - as Coal exports are a considerable portion of Australia's export industry and is currently fueling (the state of) Queensland's economy.

Pure economists (ie, very right wing) might argue that the environment is not a major concern at the moment. At the core of economics is the assumption that everything of value is given a price, and that the higher the price, the more individuals are willing to supply the good/service. In the case of the environment - if people really cared, then they wouldnt mind sacrificing economic wellbeing (price) in order to preserve or maintain it (supply). having said that, there are obvious problems to this assertion - namely, that all the climate indicators etc tend to be lagging indicators and as such would only show a problem well after it is no longer fixable. but anyway, it's food for thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
wasn't there that idea about seeding large areas of ocean with iron or some other mineral in order to stimulate growth of microorganisms, which would then sink and carry away lots of carbon. there were quite a few interesting ideas for carbon sinks that I have heard of.
Western Australia's Pilbera region is effectively sitting on a massive lump of Iron Ore - all the dirt is a bright scarlet red due to the oxidisation of the Iron in the sand. WA is the third (iirc) largest Iron Ore producing nation in the world, accounting for ~15% of all production. I would imagine it wouldnt be too diffult to find some of this dirt to spray around - its just a matter of distributing it efficiently. Though once the price of the environment reaches a certain level... .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
A large-scale switch to nuclear power would allow greenhouse gas emissions to be reduced while maintaining industrial growth, but I don't see much chance of that happening (at least not until the hyrdocarbons run out and we no longer have a choice).
Nuclear power, for all it's trumped up to be, isnt all that more greenhouse friendly when compared to other forms of semi-clean energy. Its only fair that the emissions that are produced in mining Uranium ore, processing the rods, transportation/distribution of those rods, reprocessing of the rods after use, and storage of un-recycleable fuel for the next 80 000 years or whatever should also be considered - otherwise you are only getting part of the story.

Some of the more 'creative' solutions that i have heard about - yet seem to get no mention whatsoever - include placing a parasol at a point between the earth and the Sun where the gravity of the earth cancelled out the gravity of the Sun so it was held in position. With a certain amount of tweaking, it would deflect about 2% of the solar radiation hitting the earth and thus 'solving' the greenhouse 'problem' much closer to the source. I think it was mentioned in NewScientist at some point. Another mention was the use of space based solar arrays - reputed to be some 10 times more efficient than ground solar (and continuous supply due to the lack of cloud cover in space) was also quite clever. The major problem was sending the energy back down to Earth, however the use of a microwave transmission was suggested (though that would reduce efficiency by some 20% iirc) - kind of like those Microwave power plants that those fond of Sim City would remember .

How's that for a post?
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 06:48   #74
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

hurrah! i just think i killed this thread .

Its unfortunate that solving the 'problem' isnt as easy .
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 07:06   #75
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Pure economists (ie, very right wing) might argue that the environment is not a major concern at the moment. At the core of economics is the assumption that everything of value is given a price, and that the higher the price, the more individuals are willing to supply the good/service. In the case of the environment - if people really cared, then they wouldnt mind sacrificing economic wellbeing (price) in order to preserve or maintain it (supply). having said that, there are obvious problems to this assertion - namely, that all the climate indicators etc tend to be lagging indicators and as such would only show a problem well after it is no longer fixable. but anyway, it's food for thought.
A much bigger problem than lag is that different people have different priorities and this is a shared resource (and there's no counterveilling way of affecting the environment). To use an example, in theory if individuals cared about silence / quietness they would make decisions in that direction (e.g. by not purchasing a stereo). However, if I create no sound and my neighbour decides to play his stereo at 120db every single night then it's almost irrelevent what value I place on silence unless I have some method of affecting the noise he produces.

Similarly, 95% of the world may decide that the environment is incredibly important and thus worth sacrificing certain economic benefits provided by hydrocarbons etc. However, if the other 5% decide they disagree and pollutes the world to an extreme then the value the 95% have given is irrelevent. This is why Kyoto attempted to set up the Carbon trading system (as flawed as it was).

Ultimately as our very survival is at stake this is an issue where it becomes realistic to talk about rights on both sides of the equation. In most modern societies (or at least, in Western Europe - I'm not sure about the US/Japan/etc) there are noise pollution laws. An individual is presumed to have the right to have 'quiet enjoyment' of their dwelling which is then balanced against others rights to produce noise (free expression, etc).
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 15:38   #76
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Nuclear power, for all it's trumped up to be, isnt all that more greenhouse friendly when compared to other forms of semi-clean energy. Its only fair that the emissions that are produced in mining Uranium ore, processing the rods, transportation/distribution of those rods, reprocessing of the rods after use, and storage of un-recycleable fuel for the next 80 000 years or whatever should also be considered - otherwise you are only getting part of the story.
Nuclear power compares quite favorably in emissions per mW even after you factor in production and transportation. Many so-called "green" energy sources such as solar collectors and windmills don't fare so well in comparision, especially when you factor in the numbers of them that would be needed for serious power production.
Quote:
Some of the more 'creative' solutions that i have heard about - yet seem to get no mention whatsoever - include placing a parasol at a point between the earth and the Sun where the gravity of the earth cancelled out the gravity of the Sun so it was held in position. With a certain amount of tweaking, it would deflect about 2% of the solar radiation hitting the earth and thus 'solving' the greenhouse 'problem' much closer to the source. I think it was mentioned in NewScientist at some point. Another mention was the use of space based solar arrays - reputed to be some 10 times more efficient than ground solar (and continuous supply due to the lack of cloud cover in space) was also quite clever. The major problem was sending the energy back down to Earth, however the use of a microwave transmission was suggested (though that would reduce efficiency by some 20% iirc) - kind of like those Microwave power plants that those fond of Sim City would remember .
The reason they don't often get mentioned is probably because they're not yet feasible.

But in a larger sense, you're right. We'll have more tools available to tackle global warming in the future than we do today. That's not an argument for doing nothing today, btw, just pointing out that however bleak things may look today it won't be quite so bleak tomorrow (yay optimism ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Similarly, 95% of the world may decide that the environment is incredibly important and thus worth sacrificing certain economic benefits provided by hydrocarbons etc. However, if the other 5% decide they disagree and pollutes the world to an extreme then the value the 95% have given is irrelevent.

Ultimately as our very survival is at stake this is an issue where it becomes realistic to talk about rights on both sides of the equation.
I realize that was just an example, but I think if you asked for a global show of hands on who's willing to sacrifice economic benefits you'd lose--very, very badly. The only places where the idea of sacrificing economic benefits gets any traction are in highly developed countries that already have lots of economic benefits to be sacrificed (and even there, it's a very tough sell).

Of course, if you ask a slightly different question: should only the developed countries sacrifice economic benefits then you might in fact get a result more in line with your example.

But we already know Kyoto is not the way forward.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 15:45   #77
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
I realize that was just an example, but I think if you asked for a global show of hands on who's willing to sacrifice economic benefits you'd lose--very, very badly.
Certainly. But this is where it becomes a bit tricky. In my example it's the majority were "for" the environment but in one respect it doesn't matter - it's exactly the same if 95% are against.

If everyone in the world but one was for blowing up the world then they still wouldn't have the right to kill the other guy in their collective suicide.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 16:50   #78
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Certainly. But this is where it becomes a bit tricky. In my example it's the majority were "for" the environment but in one respect it doesn't matter - it's exactly the same if 95% are against.

If everyone in the world but one was for blowing up the world then they still wouldn't have the right to kill the other guy in their collective suicide.
Yeah, but nobody wants to destroy the world through increased greenhouse gas emissions. It's too slow and not nearly flashy enough. Shiva wannabes go for the more violent cataclysms, preferably with pyrotechnic effects.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:01   #79
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
why do the americans keep posting long and boring articles written by right wing idiots who would rather deny the obvious?.
as opposed to the left wing rhetoric that you have a tendancy to spew forth at every opportunity?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
we know that climate change is occuring. we see it here in britain.
It may well be a cyclical change, the jury is still out on the causality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
we also know that america has decided to play ostrich because you are the biggest polluter and are too ****ing selfish to do anything about it..
The country that produces the most polution in regard to Green house gases per head of population is Iceland.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
we know you'd burn your own grannies if it stopped you having to walk rather than drive.

so why throw all this verbiage at us? it's misleading bollocks that we're not even going to bother to argue with.

we know we can't make you stop acting like spoilt little children and you should know that you can't make black white by waffling a lot.

The usual twaddle from a left wing ranting lunatic...
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:09   #80
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Judge
as opposed to the left wing rhetoric that you have a tendancy to spew forth at every opportunity?

It may well be a cyclical change, the jury is still out on the causality.

The country that produces the most polution in regard to Green house gases per head of population is Iceland.
The usual twaddle from a left wing ranting lunatic...
heh

Quote:
The country that produces the most polution in regard to Green house gases per head of population is Iceland.
and? how did that even address my point? you running for politics?

oh and i dare say that calling me a lefty has dearly upset many many lefties here
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:11   #81
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

producing the most per head of population is somewhat irrelevent with regards to the global picture.
what matters most is who makes the most, not who makes the most per person.

btw :
Iceland - Population: 296,737
USA - Population: 295,734,134

i believe my point is made and understood
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:20   #82
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
oh and i dare say that calling me a lefty has dearly upset many many lefties here
Well.. we get to call the democrats right-wing lunatics.

It's only fair it goes both ways.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:22   #83
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

actually republicans tend to be more right wing, democrats more left wing from what ive observed in american politics
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:24   #84
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

no shit sherlock

it's all relative though
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:26   #85
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
actually republicans tend to be more right wing, democrats more left wing from what ive observed in american politics
he means that in american politics one has a choice between ultra right wing hard line conservatives and the rebublicans.

in america margaret thatcher is a dangerous liberal.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:29   #86
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

she'd still slaughter them.
that handbag can go through grown men like a hot knife through butter
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:29   #87
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

That's the point Phil.

Here Yahwe calls the Democrats right wing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
(right wingers isn't the phrase given american politics in which your choices are1)right wing, 2) right of right wing)
Which hyfe uses as justification for calling Yahwe left wing.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:40   #88
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

No, I use as it justification for Americans calling Yawhe left wing.

There's a slight difference there.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:57   #89
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Why are we devolving into a discussion in a thread devoted to global warming? I mean the subject of global warming/ hot air doesn't seem to relate to Yahwe...........er, never mind.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:07   #90
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Why are we devolving into a discussion in a thread devoted to global warming? I mean the subject of global warming/ hot air doesn't seem to relate to Yahwe...........er, never mind.
it was never a terribly good thread was it?

see i have degenerated rather into fits of giggles and nostalgic (pronounced norse't'-al-jic btw)
happiness. we are rather a community with a history.

with god's (gawd's) love you will live another 5 years and share in our warmth.

GD a cure for early retirement death.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:12   #91
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:20   #92
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I love environmentalists.

Locally, environmentalists have ranted on about getting polution free power sources. So over the past number of years, wind farms have grown up on the hillsides between here and San Francisco.
Understandably

Quote:
Now the environmentalists are complaining that the windmills are killing migratory birds and should be shut down.
Isn't it possible to move them instead, so that they are standing in a less lethal position?

Quote:
If we were to succeed in stopping global warming, they would start to complain about global cooling no doubt.
No comment
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:38   #93
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Exclamation Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
Isn't it possible to move them instead, so that they are standing in a less lethal position?
Windmills tend to be sited where the wind blows the strongest and most often--and many birds like to use the wind on their migrations. Of course windmills have such low efficiency that it probably doesn't matter much where you put them.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:44   #94
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Wich is why other methods are considered better (suncells, waterturbines etc) wich all have their own problems.

The point is that we need power, lots of it. Windpower can provide some of it, and if we are going to use it, then we can at least try to put them outside of the main migratory lines.

BTW I hadn't seen those curves before, that was som remarcable reading
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:48   #95
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
Isn't it possible to move them instead, so that they are standing in a less lethal position?
No.
The solution, which has been arrived at, is to shut them off about 40% of the time. This will undoubtedly effect their economic viability and may well defeat their original purpose. We will be left with thousands of the ugly things maring the hillsides.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:52   #96
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
Windmills tend to be sited where the wind blows the strongest and most often--and many birds like to use the wind on their migrations. Of course windmills have such low efficiency that it probably doesn't matter much where you put them.
errr

Quote:
There are some commercial wind turbines on the market, intended for the homeowner
nations build big ones kid
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 21:54   #97
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

and for goodness sake the hoover damn does alright for you lot

or are we supposed to forget that the same way we are supposed to forget that J edgar had people killed and wore dresses?
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 22:00   #98
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Oh, come on!

Energy efficiency is a measure how much energy you put in, contra how much you get out. This is relevant in combustion engines, heating, light etc. However, we're not putting any energy into windmills, hence from our perspective their energy efficiency is basically unlimited.

What matters is how much they actually produce, not how much they could theoritically produce.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 22:14   #99
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Nothing has an infinite energy efficiency
in the case if windmills its measured by the theoretical energy from the wind passing through them, and the energy which is converted from kinetic to electrical.
windmills dont convert a lot of the energy that passes through them, ergo they arent too efficient

thats not to say they are a bad idea or a failed concept, the wind isnt an energy source which is particularly easy to harness efficiently.
Never the less, they do result in clean energy from it.

on the flip side, we arent putting any energy into oil or gas for combustion either, we're just starting a chemical reaction and harnessing the results.


every time energy is converted from one form to another, energy is always lost in the process through available methods.
nothing will ever be 100% efficient.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 22:21   #100
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Re: Greenhouse Hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Nothing has an infinite energy efficiency
in the case if windmills its measured by the theoretical energy from the wind passing through them, and the energy which is converted from kinetic to electrical.
windmills dont convert a lot of the energy that passes through them, ergo they arent too efficient
the amount of energy in wind is inconcievable

well

not if I really really tried.

but to you lot
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