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Unread 21 May 2008, 18:14   #51
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DDK]gm
the best thing with the current setup is an alliance can have covert-ops and scanners intag without them taking up a tag space where score matters.
in which case perhaps there should be a memberlimit of 60 with a +scanners/covopers that are in tag and dont count, you can perhaps designate up to say 10 ppl as scanners/cov oppers (in effect a member limit of 70) and these scanners/cov opers have to fulfil some particular requirements to keep their status intag (say do a particular number of scans per week).
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Unread 21 May 2008, 18:37   #52
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quick and to the point

Increasing the member limit will only help 3 alliances and stifle the smallers ones. The limit should be lowered considerably as it would force alliances to try and hang on to their best players and perhaps spread what little talent planetarion has left to smaller organisations thus increasing competition

In short raising the limit is quite frankly a stupid idea and not worthy of posting space.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 18:48   #53
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
nb this is all suspicion on my part, having never been a HC of a smaller alliance in pax I dont know, would one of the small alliance HC's care to enlighten us?
A week before r14 tickstart we had been reduced to ~20 members. So we actively recruited a chunk of new players and we started ranked ~14th. It was still fun and we managed to recruit something like 15-20 new players iirc.




Here's a list of round, alliance limit, number of alliances*, number of players in these alliances & number of slots available.

rd - lim - all - plyrs - slots
14 - 90 - 19 - 1011 - 1710
17 - 60 - 18 - 917 - 1080

25 - 60 - 14 - 786 - 840
26 - 75 - 15 - 917 - 1125

The increase in alliance limits for r26 saw more people in alliance tags than there were slots available in the previous round. The increase in tag limit was not accompanied by a collapse in the number of alliances either (actually, in both cases, the higher-tag-limit round had more alliances).

R25 featured support planets, but would have required the spontaneous generation of 2 fully functioning alliances to hold the same number of players that r26 did.

*30+ members with some exceptions. I included Redemption & SiN for example.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 19:05   #54
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladel
Quick and to the point

Increasing the member limit will only help 3 alliances and stifle the smallers ones. The limit should be lowered considerably as it would force alliances to try and hang on to their best players and perhaps spread what little talent planetarion has left to smaller organisations thus increasing competition

In short raising the limit is quite frankly a stupid idea and not worthy of posting space.
It depends on what you think we're aiming for. I would prefer a much larger universe. Cutting memberlimits favours a much smaller universe.


Cutting memberlimits has failed to generate new alliances. It has been done again and again and hasn't worked - do you believe it will this time? A 'drastic' cut may be to 40 players, say. That would force current allies to throw out over 300 players and accept no new players. Where do they go and why should they continue to play?

Cutting alliance limits would severely punish alliances that have invested time in building a community, any community players and any new players.

It's unlikely to increase competition. For example, 1up & eX won r12 and r13 convincingly despite fielding 30% less members than others. These rounds were far less competitive than r27 when we had 4 alliances of 70+. Imagine what would have happened in r12/13 if everyone had have had eX/1up's membercount?!

Compare the number of contenders for top spot with alliances limits: when we had 60 (r17), we had 3-4 contenders. With 75 we had 3. No real trend to support your assertion.

I admit there is the possibility that alliances will just spread themselves across multiple tags to stop the demolition of the playerbase, but I don't think that's really a good thing.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 19:12   #55
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Cutting memberlimits has failed to generate new alliances.
Several others and I thought about creating a new alliance this round we asked around and no-one was interested in joining an alliance with HC who are not known as HC's there is not a lack of ppl willing to have a go its just that the HC group in this game is small and self perpetuating
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Unread 21 May 2008, 19:47   #56
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Ok, now I see what you mean.

We're still looking at a problem that's caused by the alliances, not by the game mechanics. The only thing that's stopping a "small" alliance (they're not really small) from becoming bigger is (according to you) the fact that they don't play hardcore enough, (if you allow me to paraphrase) the fact that they suck too much.

By that logic, these alliances will never be in the running for top alliance anyway (in fact, when was the last time you saw F-Crew proclaim they even had a desire to be #1?), so your point is moot.



@Ave
I'm sorry, but I really don't see how that has anything to do with the current discussion.
Not much, just a reply for you as you are playing a game of some sort in here... even I agree with you on the topic, playing stupid makes others points not less valid. I was trying to point out the obvious why the older and bigger alliances tend to grow easier and also keep their size as some pointed out... and u should know it yourself how much easier for allready established alliance is to recruit than a totally new one with no real core to base on and the members need to be digged out from other games or by recruiting rl friends AND WITHOUT THE QUARANTEE OF ANY SUCCESS. Which means lot of work for leaders and to the older members. Untill (if ever) they reach the point to establish themselfs. But this helps me to get to the real point... Everyone should work their way up there and not be pendant on others.

Anyhow my real point towards the topic is, that if someone is able to recruit a good amount of players... that will force others try harder on that part also. This will obviously increase the amount of players.

If there are no room for friends, they surely wont join the opposing alliance... simply cause they wana play with the friends they know and like.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 19:57   #57
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

I think the main drift of the increase the limit lobby is that by doing so recruiters work harder and more people are brought into the game, this may well be true, Jenova sent out a lot of e-mails when the limit went up to 75 and brought in ppl from outside, im sure others did too yet the number of ppl playing overall still showed a decline
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Unread 21 May 2008, 20:06   #58
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
I think the main drift of the increase the limit lobby is that by doing so recruiters work harder and more people are brought into the game, this may well be true, Jenova sent out a lot of e-mails when the limit went up to 75 and brought in ppl from outside, im sure others did too yet the number of ppl playing overall still showed a decline

To make it simple, if there is no preasure or need to recruit, why would u?
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Unread 21 May 2008, 20:21   #59
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

I would rather like to know why 100? if you are going to have such a high member limit you might as well get rid of the limit all together, it would at least remove one more artificial cap on gameplay.

more choice can generally be said to be better.
it means that alliances wont feel as if they have failed if they have failed to reach the full amount.
alliances can focus not on recruiting numbers but on the quality or on creating their own niche by differentiating themselves (something we see too little of).
players can choose who they want to play with without interference.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 20:37   #60
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
It depends on what you think we're aiming for. I would prefer a much larger universe. Cutting memberlimits favours a much smaller universe.

Hate to burst your bubble, but a small universe is EXACTLY what we have!
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Unread 21 May 2008, 20:58   #61
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

The only thing that has brought substantial numbers of people to the game recently has been the return of certain alliances. Wolfpack brought back some people when they returned, and could have brought back more if they wanted to. Jenova brought back so many they ended up with more than their tag could cope with. In general the only alliances that bring/keep high numbers of people in the game are the established alliances people feel institutional loyalty towards.

As to why the memberbase is declining it's because it's a ****ing old, dated game which you have to pay to play without large-scale innovation either from within or without. It's almost nothing to do with tag limits or support planet rules. It's truly astounding how people ignore the enormously more influential fact in favour of something they actually might have some control over. Or maybe it's not.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 22:00   #62
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
I would rather like to know why 100? if you are going to have such a high member limit you might as well get rid of the limit all together, it would at least remove one more artificial cap on gameplay.
I'd probably get rid of the limit, but in the current environment that seems impossible to achieve. I think 100 is something that people would realistically consider and would be a good way to test the theory that increased memberlimits are a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatrick
Hate to burst your bubble, but a small universe is EXACTLY what we have!
Notice the relative terms 'larger' and 'smaller'

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's truly astounding how people ignore the enormously more influential fact in favour of something they actually might have some control over. Or maybe it's not.
I think we can improve PA to either slow down the decline, or possibly to increase the playerbase for a period. PA has a potential niche - mobile technology is at a similar level to PC tech was when PA was in its prime for example. It's something people can play around their lives.

The main thing that encouraged me was that my housemate has started playing and found he really enjoyed it. He normally plays the Crysis and Supreme Commander type games, but now he's compulsively moving computerised ships around an online spreadsheet.

It's made me think that there are things we can do to make the game more fun whilst it's alive. And considering I'd rather have more fun than less fun, doing something to improve the odds of that happening is better than doing nothing at all.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 22:45   #63
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Join a different alliance if one is full. bigger alliances are just stupid. smaller and more alliances is more fun for all. also easier for allliances.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 00:50   #64
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'd probably get rid of the limit, but in the current environment that seems impossible to achieve. I think 100 is something that people would realistically consider and would be a good way to test the theory that increased memberlimits are a good thing.



Notice the relative terms 'larger' and 'smaller'



I think we can improve PA to either slow down the decline, or possibly to increase the playerbase for a period. PA has a potential niche - mobile technology is at a similar level to PC tech was when PA was in its prime for example. It's something people can play around their lives.

The main thing that encouraged me was that my housemate has started playing and found he really enjoyed it. He normally plays the Crysis and Supreme Commander type games, but now he's compulsively moving computerised ships around an online spreadsheet.

It's made me think that there are things we can do to make the game more fun whilst it's alive. And considering I'd rather have more fun than less fun, doing something to improve the odds of that happening is better than doing nothing at all.
I simply do not belive your theory that if we up the limit to 100 we'll have scores of people coming to the game. There are other and much better ways to get more people to the game. Raising the alliance limit will simply NOT help the amount of planets at all.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 01:13   #65
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alezzar
I dont like the this idea, in fact 75 limit sux. Id rather see 60 limit...More allys, more fun :}
To run an alliance you need HCs and officers. The number of these in PA is steadily declining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
The increase in memberlimits have not helped on the number of planets playing this round. Infact the number went significally down this round compared to last. I think that it had some to do with a few alliances that decided not to play, and their members deciding the same, and also that a fair few people did not like the increase. I do not think that an increase in the alliance limits will get more players in. The expiriment with higher limits r26 showed exactly that.
It's much more likely that the reduce in number is due to Northern Hemisphere students having exams at this time and sensibly deciding not to play.

Secondly, the only way to get new players in is by advertising for them. Getting current players to stay, on the other hand, currently depends on alliance communities - and they are hurt far more by smaller tags than larger ones.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 08:06   #66
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I simply do not belive your theory that if we up the limit to 100 we'll have scores of people coming to the game. There are other and much better ways to get more people to the game. Raising the alliance limit will simply NOT help the amount of planets at all.
The limit increase will not lead to scores of extra people trying the game.

But it will mean that those players who try the game will have somewhere to experience the best it has to offer, and that allies will be more likely to try & actively recruit them. It also means that established allies that don't fill the tag will be more likely to encourage older community members to play a planet even if they can't be hardcore.

Both of these would bode well for the longer term of PA. Cutting alliance limits, if it doesn't lead to spawning of new alliances (which it hasn't done so far) will simply make the universe shrink faster.

As I showed with the data; this round there were more people in coherent alliances than last round's alliances had space for.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 09:29   #67
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
As I showed with the data; this round there were more people in coherent alliances than last round's alliances had space for.
the change from round 25 to round 26 does not seem to be a particularly good example of this though due to alliances disbanding, I am sure in part due to the change in tag limit. If the tag limit had remained the same then it is quite possible that alliances such as ROCK and TGV would have kept going in round 26 thereby providing enough space.

btw I wont dispute that there were other reasons too such as lack of willing HC's (partially due to the already mentioned exams)
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Unread 22 May 2008, 10:04   #68
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I simply do not belive your theory that if we up the limit to 100 we'll have scores of people coming to the game. There are other and much better ways to get more people to the game. Raising the alliance limit will simply NOT help the amount of planets at all.
Which are these more better ways? having preasure to recruit is free for all.. means just some work for people responsible of such. That is something we can do without beeing pendant on the pa team.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 10:06   #69
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz
Join a different alliance if one is full. bigger alliances are just stupid. smaller and more alliances is more fun for all. also easier for allliances.
I would rather join an alliance that I want to support...
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Unread 22 May 2008, 10:22   #70
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
the change from round 25 to round 26 does not seem to be a particularly good example of this though due to alliances disbanding, I am sure in part due to the change in tag limit. If the tag limit had remained the same then it is quite possible that alliances such as ROCK and TGV would have kept going in round 26 thereby providing enough space.
I admit the numbers are far from sufficient to prove anything, but they can provide some insight.

For example, it falsifies the idea that an increase in tag limits leads to the collapse in the number of alliances.


At this juncture I would like to point out that cutting alliance limits to 60 would involve last round's top 10 alliances having to kick 80 players. I don't think that would be a good thing for the players involved. The higher tag limit is good for players and this round we saw about as many competitive alliances as we did last round.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 10:42   #71
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Seeing that most players posting here are from the big alliances, I will give the view from a player in Hidden Agenda.

We're not running for #1 spot, but aim steadily for a top 10 alliance finish. This round we had about 65 members in tag. 40 of those play actively. The upper 10 has quite good average score, while the bottom 10 are partially in cluster 200. We are still a recruiting alliance, open to the new or returning player, but cannot fill tag with alliance limit of 75. For Hidden Agenda, the only effect of upping the alliance limit would be a further drain of good players.

I think most of the current bigger players of Hidden Agenda are loyal to the alliance. It should, however, be noted that an alliance as ours cannot afford to lose a lot of their biggest 10. Not because of the alliance score as such, but because without a certain 'critical mass', defence of the other big ones become impossible. If those 10 don't defend each other, it takes 5 to 10 defence fleets from smaller planets to cover one wave of incoming at a potential top 100 planet.

So, if there should be a change on alliances, i'd rather see it back to 60 than up to 100 members.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 10:58   #72
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delver
So, if there should be a change on alliances, i'd rather see it back to 60 than up to 100 members.
It appears there is a conflict of interests.

Larger alliance sizes favour alliances that are perceived to be stronger, they favour players and they favour a larger universe (which in turn will help smaller alliances in the long run)

Smaller alliance size favours alliances that are perceived to be weaker plus small-but-elite alliances.


On the 60 point, I don't see how we can justify throwing 80 players out of their homes. This would be a bad, bad thing IMO.

On expanding limits, I think it's worth doing because of aforementioned reasons and because I don't think the exodus will be as destructive as suggested. A couple of alliances may struggle, but this round there were still places in NoX & Conspiracy. They weren't taken up by 30 players from smaller alliances who left their old groups to collapse.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:23   #73
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delver
Seeing that most players posting here are from the big alliances, I will give the view from a player in Hidden Agenda.
For most of us, our personal position in the game (or lack thereof) really hasn't got much of an influence on what our point of view on this subject is. This is not a giant conspiracy to destroy small alliances and win the round with overwhelming numbers. We genuinely believe that higher alliance limits will in the long term be better for the game than lower ones.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:24   #74
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
It appears there is a conflict of interests.

Larger alliance sizes favour alliances that are perceived to be stronger, they favour players and they favour a larger universe (which in turn will help smaller alliances in the long run)

Smaller alliance size favours alliances that are perceived to be weaker plus small-but-elite alliances.


On the 60 point, I don't see how we can justify throwing 80 players out of their homes. This would be a bad, bad thing IMO. On the expanding players point, I think it's worth doing because of various aforementioned reasons (increases player retention etc) and because I don't think the exodus will be as destructive as suggested. An couple of alliances may really struggle, but this round there were still places in NoX & Conspiracy. They weren't taken up by 30 players from smaller alliances who left their old groups to collapse.
Analysis of your logic of your first two paragraphs:
Larger = larger =larger
Smaller = smaller = smaller
I think you are oversimplifying the matter. The smaller alliances wish a larger universe too. If there is a larger universe there will be more resources to tap from. At this point enlarging the limit is blatantly wrong.

As I pointed out earlier, whether you read it is another point, there were just 3 alliances with a filled tag. A question rises: were all these members active? I guess not. Amplify this to the "lower tier" of the top10: Delver mentioned it for HA, I will do it for Orbit: we had 66 in tag, of which a maximum of 45 were active. We are in the same category: we have an active core and around that we build an alliance with returning players and new players of which we hope to retain some percentage for the round after. If you read this: would it not be more logical to have a limit of 60 than a limit of 100?

Furthermore, it appears there is a conflict of interest indeed, namely: the larger alliance wanting to offer room to more players so they can have a better fight against another "top tier" alliance versus the smaller alliance wanting to provide a good environment for new and returning players to learn and readapt to the game. Both are needed and can flourish in a setting with alliance limits of 60 or 75 at the maximum. Increasing it above that will damage too much of the "lower tier" alliance and with that the game itself.

Now to the last point about what you said about 80 players losing their homes.I think you are really trying magic with numbers. Where did you get that number from? How did you obtain this figure? If you take into account the things I said above, will it be a large group?
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:27   #75
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
On expanding limits, I think it's worth doing because of aforementioned reasons and because I don't think the exodus will be as destructive as suggested. A couple of alliances may struggle, but this round there were still places in NoX & Conspiracy. They weren't taken up by 30 players from smaller alliances who left their old groups to collapse.
Maybe you're right, and maybe you're wrong. Afaik Hidden Agenda lost three good players to CT this round, of which one ended as rank 20, being CTs third best player. Good thing we roided him 24 hours before round ended, or he would have done even better.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:29   #76
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
Now to the last point about what you said about 80 players losing their homes.I think you are really trying magic with numbers. Where did you get that number from? How did you obtain this figure? If you take into account the things I said above, will it be a large group?
That's approximately the number of players currently in 60+ tags that would be forced to either go elsewhere or play out of tag, if the tag limit was reduced to 60.

Just to make sure you get why we think that's a bad idea. That's 80 people forced to join either HR/ASS/Subh, or to stop playing, or to start an alliance without competent HCs. And though I realise there will never be any hard evidence (because of the complexity of inherent in human motivation), so far there's even a lack of indication that a lower tag limit has a positive effect on alliance count.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:35   #77
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
For most of us, our personal position in the game (or lack thereof) really hasn't got much of an influence on what our point of view on this subject is. This is not a giant conspiracy to destroy small alliances and win the round with overwhelming numbers. We genuinely believe that higher alliance limits will in the long term be better for the game than lower ones.
And with those higher alliance limits tiers in alliances are established. So are you now pro or con tiers in alliances?
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:39   #78
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
That's approximately the number of players currently in 60+ tags that would be forced to either go elsewhere or play out of tag, if the tag limit was reduced to 60.

Just to make sure you get why we think that's a bad idea. That's 80 people forced to join either HR/ASS/Subh, or to stop playing, or to start an alliance without competent HCs. And though I realise there will never be any hard evidence (because of the complexity of inherent in human motivation), so far there's even a lack of indication that a lower tag limit has a positive effect on alliance count.
I think that of those 80 a lot can be deducted because they are inactives, so we keep around 15/20 people to check for new homes IF alliance limits are set to 60. I am currently for keeping the 75 limit, as I like consistency in the game. But the alliance limit should follow the size of universe, not the other way around, in my opinion.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:40   #79
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
And with those higher alliance limits tiers in alliances are established. So are you now pro or con tiers in alliances?
I disagree that higher alliance limits cause a tier system to evolve at all. Fact of the matter is that most people in top alliances will never join HR or Orbit or ROCK. The tag limit has no effect on this.

In answer to your question however, I am against the idea that one alliance should have a higher chance of winning than another, but only if that difference is not caused by the members of that alliance. And ultimately everything an alliance does is based on them.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:41   #80
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delver
Maybe you're right, and maybe you're wrong. Afaik Hidden Agenda lost three good players to CT this round, of which one ended as rank 20, being CTs third best player. Good thing we roided him 24 hours before round ended, or he would have done even better.

I think people are failing to understand that its the players final decision where they play. I mean.. even when people get "poached" its still their decision to join a so called "bigger alliance". If they dont want to play in a tag of 30 and feel that they can do better in 60.. why should they stay? u cant blame alliances for giving the impression they are worth playing more for than a smaller (and in the ranking lower) alliance.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:44   #81
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I disagree that higher alliance limits cause a tier system to evolve at all. Fact of the matter is that most people in top alliances will never join HR or Orbit or ROCK. The tag limit has no effect on this.

In answer to your question however, I am against the idea that one alliance should have a higher chance of winning than another, but only if that difference is not caused by the members of that alliance. And ultimately everything an alliance does is based on them.
So what you actually say is that we already have a tier system in place: "top players" and "Orbit players". Am I correct? And if I am, then this "finding" will have a certain influence on what alliances and their kind of players want. This would mean a perpetual conflict of interests.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:45   #82
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
That's approximately the number of players currently in 60+ tags that would be forced to either go elsewhere or play out of tag, if the tag limit was reduced to 60.

Just to make sure you get why we think that's a bad idea. That's 80 people forced to join either HR/ASS/Subh, or to stop playing, or to start an alliance without competent HCs.
Well, you can cut your number to 75 players then, as HA would prolly cut 5 of the players who ended below 500k score and quit midround anyways.

More on topic: I left HA in favour of ROCK in rounds 23 and 24, due to the core of the alliance being to small. I returned, together with others, because the core was back. If a medium-size alliance as HA lose their core, it's out of business. And I don't think the game can survive that now.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:48   #83
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
I think you are oversimplifying the matter. The smaller alliances wish a larger universe too. If there is a larger universe there will be more resources to tap from. At this point enlarging the limit is blatantly wrong.
They might wish a larger universe, but a smaller limit will ensure there isn't one.

If there is a smaller limit, there are not enough alliance places for people to play in - again, note how round 25 had less total alliance slots than r26 had people in alliances.



Quote:
If you read this: would it not be more logical to have a limit of 60 than a limit of 100?
If you cut the limit to 60, you would keep your core of ~40 active players and some of those kicked out of ND/Den/CT/Asc/xVx/ToF/FC/HA would try and join you. And you'd probably take them over a completely new player.

So the number of new players you'd accept would decline by 6 + the number of old ND/Den/etc you accepted. The number of players in ND/Den/CT etc would fall, and they would not recruit new players. You would kick new players and not recruit any more.

Players unable to join a tag they want may not join you ofc, they may just quit. Same for new players who can't find somewhere they want to play.

As mentioned; cutting alliance limits may work in Orbit or HA's favour, but would not be in the interests of the player. Vice versa for larger limits.

Quote:
Furthermore, it appears there is a conflict of interest indeed, namely: the larger alliance wanting to offer room to more players so they can have a better fight against another "top tier" alliance versus the smaller alliance wanting to provide a good environment for new and returning players to learn and readapt to the game.
Relatively speaking, that's barely an issue. The 'top tier' alliances can massively outperform the lower tier alliances regardless of whether they have more members or not. Round 11 and round 13 show that remarkably well. As do early round score leads every single round.


Mz covered the 80 members point.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:59   #84
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

AS it stands atm theres are 2 leagues aff alliances. The 'Premier' league of those allys that can fill their 75 quota of player and the '1st Division' that cannot. Reducing ally members wont make people quit the game, or at least I cant see it. The likes of you in ND will retain your best players and throw out the weaker ones. These weaker players then move down the ally rank ladder to HA/F-Crew/HR and gain more experiance. These weaker players then prove themselves in the smaller alliances and work their way back up the ally ranks.

In return, the smaller allys get a chance to compete on a more level playing field and have a slight chance of number 1 spot if the members put in the time and effort required.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 12:08   #85
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
They might wish a larger universe, but a smaller limit will ensure there isn't one.

If there is a smaller limit, there are not enough alliance places for people to play in - again, note how round 25 had less total alliance slots than r26 had people in alliances.

If you cut the limit to 60, you would keep your core of ~40 active players and some of those kicked out of ND/Den/CT/Asc/xVx/ToF/FC/HA would try and join you. And you'd probably take them over a completely new player.

So the number of new players you'd accept would decline by 6 + the number of old ND/Den/etc you accepted. The number of players in ND/Den/CT etc would fall, and they would not recruit new players. You would kick new players and not recruit any more.

Players unable to join a tag they want may not join you ofc, they may just quit. Same for new players who can't find somewhere they want to play.

As mentioned; cutting alliance limits may work in Orbit or HA's favour, but would not be in the interests of the player. Vice versa for larger limits.
I already mentioned we could keep the 75 limit. A limit of 60 of course would work in favour of the smaller alliances, but as there are new/returning alliances every round this favour will be quite small. Increasing the limit still is no good. Changes should be made when they are required. In my opinion such a change is not required at this moment. When the universe grows, limits can grow.
Furthermore, you assume players of ND/Den/CT would like to join one of the "lower tier alliances". I think that is not true for many reasons.
Thus with these remarks in mind, the problem of kicking new/returning players in favour of people from "top tier" alliances is virtually non existent.
Finally, I think we both are thinking of the interests of players, just from a totally different perspective. As I also said before, this will be the perpetual conflict of interest we might not be able to resolve.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 12:11   #86
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
So what you actually say is that we already have a tier system in place: "top players" and "Orbit players". Am I correct? And if I am, then this "finding" will have a certain influence on what alliances and their kind of players want. This would mean a perpetual conflict of interests.
I wouldn't go as far as to split a group of Planetarion players neatly in two like that, but yes, there are more hardcore players, and more leisurely players, and people at every stage in between. Most of the more hardcore players are in top alliances, most of the more leisurely players are in lower ranking alliances (this is fairly logical).

I am not sure how this is a new way of looking at things. It's been like this for 27 rounds, and it will continue to be like this for 27 more.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 12:18   #87
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatrick
In return, the smaller allys get a chance to compete on a more level playing field and have a slight chance of number 1 spot if the members put in the time and effort required.
Do you really think this? Alliances require some combination of fantastic luck, tools, member skill & commitment and HC/BC/DC competence. Even when we reduced limits significantly it's easy to predict who'd be in with a shot at #1.

Of course, alliances could go for the win by severely tightening recruitment standards - again, this means that more leisurely players won't be able to find a home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
I already mentioned we could keep the 75 limit.
That would be less bad than cutting it.

Quote:
Furthermore, you assume players of ND/Den/CT would like to join one of the "lower tier alliances". I think that is not true for many reasons.
Seeing as we've failed to generate new alliances every time that we've cut member limits, where do you suggest these players will go?


Personally, I can't play PA actively any more because of rl. I won't play outside my community - in order for ND to compete I have to either be a scanner/support planet, or not play. If ND have space I play, if ND don't, I don't.

EDIT: An alternative idea is to slowly increase ally sizes round by round (eg to 85 or 90 next round). It's tinkering, but it reduces the probability of a mass exodus from smaller to larger alliances. This isn't a great compromise but it's better than not doing it IMO.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 13:17   #88
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Tbh, as for reacting to #71th post by Delver (cba quoting that long post) same problem was in Alamo, too. :|

Anyway, Gate, the debate is about increasing alliance limits, not decreasing it:P Im against the limit of 100 ofc (same reasons as in post #71), (or any limit above 75). Would rather say, keep it as it is.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 13:19   #89
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
To run an alliance you need HCs and officers. The number of these in PA is steadily declining.
Round 26 has shown that you can win without these things. Much more to the point, most of the previous 10 rounds have shown you can have a successful planet/good time whilst being in an alliance without these things. It simply (heh) requires an adjustment in how you view the game, both socially and tactically.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 14:03   #90
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Can't we just keep this the same for round 27?

This game has ended up in a constant circle of increasing alliance limits because we must allow people who really want to join an alliance to be allowed to play, followed by decreasing it because other people moan that smaller alliances can't compete against the big boys.

It feels like everyone is trying to paint a bike shed. The increases and decreases both have the pros and cons, yet at the end of the day we're still playing the same damn game.

Were the numbers particularly bad for this round? Most alliances managed to get more than 60 players and there are only 3 who reached the limit. Why should we have such a dramatic change because just a few alliances reached the absolute limit?
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Unread 22 May 2008, 15:19   #91
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

If you're arguing that we're painting a bike shed, then the change is not dramatic at all.

The only reason we're even discussing about the bike shed is because no one is willing to build or capable of building a power plant.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 18:49   #92
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz
Join a different alliance if one is full. bigger alliances are just stupid. smaller and more alliances is more fun for all. also easier for allliances.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 19:45   #93
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

The bike-shed discussion is actually taking place in strategies discussions, and is called 'Round 27 stats'. That is a place where everyone, even those not playing the last rounds, argue heavily in favour of improving their own preferred race.

This thread is more like the power plant, as impact on the game and community as such could be big, and it is quite hard to grasp all the possible effects of changes.
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Unread 23 May 2008, 00:42   #94
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Round 26 has shown that you can win without these things. Much more to the point, most of the previous 10 rounds have shown you can have a successful planet/good time whilst being in an alliance without these things. It simply (heh) requires an adjustment in how you view the game, both socially and tactically.
Ascendancy is hardly a standard PA alliance.
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Unread 23 May 2008, 01:31   #95
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

I think that's more or less his point.
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Unread 23 May 2008, 12:04   #96
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

I see my 'heh' was put to good use there. Why should any alliance strive to be 'standard' anyway? That's pretty much doing your best to be boring/bored.
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Unread 23 May 2008, 12:36   #97
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
That's approximately the number of players currently in 60+ tags that would be forced to either go elsewhere or play out of tag, if the tag limit was reduced to 60.

Just to make sure you get why we think that's a bad idea. That's 80 people forced to join either HR/ASS/Subh, or to stop playing, or to start an alliance without competent HCs. And though I realise there will never be any hard evidence (because of the complexity of inherent in human motivation), so far there's even a lack of indication that a lower tag limit has a positive effect on alliance count.
Something wrong with joining ASS?
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Unread 23 May 2008, 12:47   #98
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatrick
AS it stands atm theres are 2 leagues aff alliances. The 'Premier' league of those allys that can fill their 75 quota of player and the '1st Division' that cannot. Reducing ally members wont make people quit the game, or at least I cant see it. The likes of you in ND will retain your best players and throw out the weaker ones. These weaker players then move down the ally rank ladder to HA/F-Crew/HR and gain more experiance. These weaker players then prove themselves in the smaller alliances and work their way back up the ally ranks.

In return, the smaller allys get a chance to compete on a more level playing field and have a slight chance of number 1 spot if the members put in the time and effort required.
This might work in football where people get payed for their services... if here someone gets a feeling they aint wanted or arent good enough they may aswell quit...

expesially if they feel the other options aint for them.

There are allways players who has to skip the round, due busy status irl... if u have to get rid of these figures, because they can't be fully active 1 round from 20... u will have no communities left soon. People should be allowed to join the tags and stay along regardless if they play with less comitment this round.

Remove the alliance member limits.

we can find other solutions to get aid for the smaller/newer alliances to grow. but it shouldnt be made with others expenses.
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Unread 23 May 2008, 13:11   #99
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave
Something wrong with joining ASS?
Way to miss the point. I said "forced". Maybe that's a hint.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 May 2008, 13:44   #100
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Re: Round 27 - increase alliance memberlimit to 100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Way to miss the point. I said "forced". Maybe that's a hint.
Well I got your point ofc, which is valid just I believe ASS HCs do good work and put lots of time and effort for our well beeing... so I dont find anyone is "forced" to join there, (they deserve some credit, regardless our ranks.)
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