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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 18:08   #1
The Real Arfy
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Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

When I heard about quests, I imagined it more like a tutorial, an interactive manual.

Code:
From the beta overview:
Current Quests:
Name:	Beginner	Current Subquest:	Research Lab
Mission:	Build Research Laboratory constructions
Other than being completely unnoticable, it doesn't really help a new player. Sure, they can go through the game building what you tell them, but there's only 11 quests anyway, most of which are pointless, such as "send a message to 1:1:1".

What would be about 300% more helpful is if we gave some text to go with it, maybe even a little advisor's logo and/or photo. (Yeah, I'm stealing from Civ again, whatever )

It's also too linear. Sometimes when I play Cathaar, for example, I opt to research deep core mining first. We should be giving newbies a choice, and explaining the pro's and con's of taking that path in the game.

Right hand man: "Commander, our finances, military and science are all non-existant. You need to choose a path for us to approach first. Consult your advisors below [or it could be on another page], but remember we can only research one thing at a time!".

Economist: "We are currently mining 5000 metal, 5000 crystal and 5000 eonium each tick, much below the universal average. Initiate asteroids, build refineries, get the general public in the caves - we need to increase output".

General: "We can't build any ships! We're all going to die! Get your scientists on the job, and in 3 days time we'll build 1 ship... OK, get some cash first".

Professor: "You need to give my guys more research laboratories if you want us to be scientific experts."
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Unread 3 Jan 2008, 19:33   #2
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

The idea of quests are nice, but the implementation could be a lot better. Please don't leave the quests in like this to rot to death, improve it.

These quests need to be from someone instead of being a boring part of the system. Can't it possibly have Commander Zog from Xandathrii Homeworld asking me to do them? An avatar is also a nice idea with them as it personalises the experience just that little bit more.

The entire quest line shouldn't be shown to players at all. Only the single mission should be shown to remove any potential confusion and to keep players on track. The quests need to be linear for new players otherwise it'll end up quite confusing, the starter quests are aimed at new players. Even if the order isn't as optimal for an advanced player it should still give a genuine new player a few guidelines on what to do.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 01:38   #3
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

I fully agree with both comments.
Put the list of the current quests somewhere and let someone rewrite the text if nobody has the time in PA team.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 10:16   #4
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

couldnt help when reading that but think

Scotty : "We cannae do it capn'! we just dooont have the poower!...try building a wave amplifier"
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 18:03   #5
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
When I heard about quests, I imagined it more like a tutorial, an interactive manual.

Code:
From the beta overview:
Current Quests:
Name:	Beginner	Current Subquest:	Research Lab
Mission:	Build Research Laboratory constructions
Other than being completely unnoticable, it doesn't really help a new player. Sure, they can go through the game building what you tell them, but there's only 11 quests anyway, most of which are pointless, such as "send a message to 1:1:1".

What would be about 300% more helpful is if we gave some text to go with it, maybe even a little advisor's logo and/or photo. (Yeah, I'm stealing from Civ again, whatever )

It's also too linear. Sometimes when I play Cathaar, for example, I opt to research deep core mining first. We should be giving newbies a choice, and explaining the pro's and con's of taking that path in the game.

Right hand man: "Commander, our finances, military and science are all non-existant. You need to choose a path for us to approach first. Consult your advisors below [or it could be on another page], but remember we can only research one thing at a time!".

Economist: "We are currently mining 5000 metal, 5000 crystal and 5000 eonium each tick, much below the universal average. Initiate asteroids, build refineries, get the general public in the caves - we need to increase output".

General: "We can't build any ships! We're all going to die! Get your scientists on the job, and in 3 days time we'll build 1 ship... OK, get some cash first".

Professor: "You need to give my guys more research laboratories if you want us to be scientific experts."
I have said the same thing on a number of occasions. Despite what everyone kept claiming the reality always was that the quest really did very little to help even for the most new players.

Like you I have stated I think a civ style advisory system would work wonders and be more dynamic and focused
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 18:17   #6
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.


there's actually a mouseover in the game with explanatory text!

Edit: modified showquests.pl - see, there is /some/ explanatory text. I'm not completely hopeless!

I will look at having a more advanced system, but it sounds like it needs a new page, and adding a new page is extremely problematic as it breaks all the skins that rely on background images.

.....
oooooor some right hand advisory menu.
hmmm.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 18:36   #7
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster

there's actually a mouseover in the game with explanatory text!

Edit: modified showquests.pl - see, there is /some/ explanatory text. I'm not completely hopeless!

I will look at having a more advanced system, but it sounds like it needs a new page, and adding a new page is extremely problematic as it breaks all the skins that rely on background images.

.....
oooooor some right hand advisory menu.
hmmm.
So break some of the skins, lets be honest most are hopeless and the interface could do with an overhaul and its the perfect excuse.

As far as im concerned one or two good interfaces are better than loads of amateur looking ones
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 19:02   #8
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

This is going a little bit off-topic but I have to agree with wakey.

Considering 80% of people stay with the default interface I'd like to see all the effort put into a single UI instead of Planetarion being slow and awkward to move forward because of the skin system preventing it. It's far better to have one single skin which actually looks good instead of a load which range from pathetic to average.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 19:47   #9
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Let’s be honest with ourselves like the other posters have said the majority of the skins are not used, kudos to the people who spent the time and effort creating them but if the mechanics of the game are held up due to old skins, then they should be droped in favor of the system advancing.

The CIV type of advisor system works, if it didn’t then all four releases of CIV would not have used the same system, it can only help new players get a better feel and understanding of the game, and if the only thing that is stopping this is a few skins then I say drop the skins and let’s move forward.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 20:07   #10
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Agreed, game mechanics > skin choice (although personally I'd make sure the text only skin is always working, for those of us using mobile phones).

I also think(?) the quests aren't finalised yet, I seem to recall some competition in which people could suggest quests. Or has that finished already?
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 20:27   #11
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

If you look at the stats page, of who is using what skin, it's always like 80% using the default one or whatever anyways.

**** the skins, that's the least important aspect of the game.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 20:30   #12
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Yeah, just make sure a text only skin is working, if all else fails we can use that. Noone that I know if will get any less enjoyment out of the game if there are a few pretty pics missing or not there
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 21:47   #13
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Have to agree with the above comments, the UI system as a whole could use a full overhaul. Even if you don't go for a graphically mouthwatering look, a functional approach should be taken. Skins are very nice, but as the above have said they simply aren't recognised as being useful by the masses. No system should be held back because of minor and insignificant modules, i.e. the skins functionality.


I'd be more than happy to conceptualise a few designs for possible UI enhancements or overhauls


Am enjoying the quest idea though, a nice twist on a user manual, but it needs to be developed a lot more for the next round.

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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 22:19   #14
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
(although personally I'd make sure the text only skin is always working, for those of us using mobile phones).
As most mobile phones now have fully functioning web browsers (or can download them) and can handle the CAPTCHA there's probably little reason why the web version cant come back imho so we wouldn't have to set a text only skin for the main game just to be able to access it on our mobiles.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 22:34   #15
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

yeah, but I still think a text only version is a good idea if they are truly concerned over breaking skins. It's quick, it's easy, no work really involved. They could go so far as to simply do a text only, and than open a competition to graphics artists to create the "new official PA skin" kinda like the name the next round thing, throw up a poll, offer a credit for the winner, and boom, done.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 23:21   #16
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
As most mobile phones now have fully functioning web browsers (or can download them) and can handle the CAPTCHA there's probably little reason why the web version cant come back imho so we wouldn't have to set a text only skin for the main game just to be able to access it on our mobiles.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. In fact, I'm sure I don't. Please explain?
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 23:23   #17
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. In fact, I'm sure I don't. Please explain?
He's talking about those Human Entry screens you get on forum signups and whatnot. Where you have to enter the verification code to signup, keeping robots and crawlers out.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 23:29   #18
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

I know what a captcha is, I just don't know what he's saying.
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Unread 4 Jan 2008, 23:45   #19
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Oh my bad!

I figured he was just talking about the use of the text only skin for mobile users, with a graphical skin for PC users. Guessing CAPTCHA was just thrown in there as a security note for text only systems, don't know

It seems a logical way forward though having a simple text system designed either by of for the DEV team and then have a competition to develop a set of/official skin.

I think its mostly a layout and presentation issue, the information is there but it needs more consideration for where it is placed and how is it displayed to the user.
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Unread 5 Jan 2008, 12:02   #20
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

For those players who pay for internet access by the kilobyte, it'd certainly be handy to have a text-only skin.
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Unread 5 Jan 2008, 13:14   #21
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I know what a captcha is, I just don't know what he's saying.
Hmm the word mobile before web version went missing.

Anyway incase you stil don't understand. Before the captcha there used to be a mobile web version of the game. As WAP couldnt handle the captcha image it was removed. I was just saying that now that most phones can handle it theres little reason we cant have a web version available so that its easy to access the simplified version of the game at anytime rather than needing to know you will need it before hand and set the text only skin
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Unread 5 Jan 2008, 13:23   #22
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

P.S. This thread's about quests!
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Unread 5 Jan 2008, 14:25   #23
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
P.S. This thread's about quests!
Very true, but the discussion is also about an improved implementation of Quests. At the moment they are hidden away on the Overview page and act as more of a gimmick than a tutorial/informant which would be of more use to the newer players.

Having selected Beginner myself I'm not sure what other levels there are of Quests, Amatuer, Professional etc? With quests more tailored to the more skilled players (still of use and relevance to their round playing though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Anyway incase you stil don't understand. Before the captcha there used to be a mobile web version of the game. As WAP couldnt handle the captcha image it was removed. I was just saying that now that most phones can handle it theres little reason we cant have a web version available so that its easy to access the simplified version of the game at anytime rather than needing to know you will need it before hand and set the text only skin
It would also clear the way for full RSS support, which would be great for keeping track of things without jumping in to the game or portal

Last edited by denzil; 5 Jan 2008 at 17:07.
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 10:46   #24
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

wouldnt it be fairly simple to put out a questionaire (tick boxes) to every player asking them what sort of skin they like/need, do they agree with the quests, would they like golden roids back.. etc etc..

(Dont explain what those things are, suggest they come onto the com unit and ask in #planetarion or another specified channel, to teach/show them how usefull the com unit/irc is for contacting other players andgetting aid.)

and give them 3 (one of each) roids for filling it in and sending it, maybe as the final quest.

Doing this with a reward should get an opinion from those who rarely comment and get usefull info, like what their main browser is, do they need text only low graphics sin for mobile use, if they use a mobile, what browser they use.
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 13:57   #25
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

PA is not a democracy, nor should it be.
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 14:37   #26
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

You can get all of the non-planterion based information (browser, if using a mobile, et cetera) from just plugging the URL in to Google Analytics and analysing the data from a few rounds (if the developers haven't already).

I don't think Quests should form a questionnaire, they could have put one on the web site or forums if they so wanted. Quests should be about educating the players and making sure they get the most out of the experience, bringing them back for subsequent rounds.

Last edited by denzil; 6 Jan 2008 at 15:02.
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Unread 6 Jan 2008, 22:20   #27
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
PA is not a democracy, nor should it be.
No, but polls can be a useful way of getting an opinion ingame.

At the moment decisions seem to be made on forum discussions (whoever argues the best), the occasional forum poll, IRC discussion, and private discussion between people either a small selection of the playerbase or between people who barely play the game. None of these are that great at representing players views - probably one of the reasons that rules and features in the game appear, disappear and then reappear again because people decide that some old feature is a great idea.

A poll displayed just after the CAPTCHA which forces you to answer it before you're allowed to login might be more useful in gathering opinions on various little things.
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Unread 7 Jan 2008, 14:24   #28
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

Polls are useless as they don't give an opportunity for people to provide arguments for their votes. I'm fairly confident there's a lot of things the majority of the people are in favour of, yet which are not at all the right things to do or have.

I don't care about the opinion of random retards playing this game, I'd much rather put game development in the hands of a few qualified individuals than in the hands of a populist who just goes by majority rule.

The fact that features seem to randomly (dis/re)appear just means there is no clear vision when it comes to game development (which is something that's neither new nor shocking), it has nothing to do with the discussion we're having here.
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 11:42   #29
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

the quests are not helpfull, just ANNOYING. they should have more specific instructions to make it any use.
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 11:47   #30
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Re: Actually, I've changed my mind. Quests suck.

As a trial run it seems to be doing its job and people are sort of finding it and understanding the process, but as mentioned above it really does need a bit more thought in to its implementation

Last edited by denzil; 11 Jan 2008 at 14:41.
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