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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 03:07   #1
Deffeh
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Self inflicted Pigeonholing

(i've returned and i've realised i owe quite a few threads, so here they come starting with this one.)

So, pigeonholing. Im not really sure i understand it from a personal point of view. Obviously its a fantastic tool to tar your opponents and grouping is reasonably neccesary if we are to grapple with large cross sections of society or whatever.

But i dont understand why people feel the need to live up to stereotypes.

I live with a lesbian, who came out about a year and a half ago. The most striking thing for me is how many things about her have changed (despite all the 'still the same person' crap still holding true).

I am thoroughly happy that shes come to terms so easily with what is a fairly major change in your worldview and that shes realised she's more into ponies than speedboats. But i dont get a lot of the little changes.

She now subscribes to 'Diva' magazine (what exactly is a 'lesbian' issue may i ask?), and doesnt seem to make any new friends nowadays that arent lesbians. On a personal note im rather sad also i had to torrent three series of 'The L Word' for her viewing pleasure. I dont really understand it, i have to say. She's intelligent and doesnt watch a lot of TV, never mind american junk - so why the fascination with a bunch of rich LA muffguzzlers? I heard 'women who pretend they eat pussy and occasionally say nipple' isnt neccesarily a priority category in what makes good tv. She also listens almost exclusively to music with female singers (and as you probably already know, i like very very very little music with female singers. I think its good once in a while but my overall feeling is its very gimmicky with not a lot of depth).

Now, i understand the empathy, and people like to be around their own, and rock fans buy rock magazines and all that jazz. But i dont really understand the desire to be a 'by-the-book' lesbian - just as i wouldnt expect a football fan to form their opinions primarily on garth crooks 'team of the week' with a side helping of '442' magazine. Surely there has to be more to being somebody or liking something than reading a manual? Should i buy her "lesbianism for dummies'" for her christmas? She and her friends were talking about "oh my god, i saw that ellen degeneres stand up" - "oh which one?!?!?!?!" - "no, the one with the shampoo" - "oh yeah, theres two" - what, is it like a panini stickerbook or something, pokemon, gotta catch em all? It sort of reminds me when i was 13 and pretended to like the whole crappy rock alternative scene and i was embarrassed because i didnt know all the lyrics to 'Sugar'. or when i was 8 and was worried the popular kid in my class and the only other celtic fan might find out that i was a protestant. The point im trying to make is that there seems to be this invisible hand of conforming to certain principles and ticking certain boxes even within the realms of 'being yourself'. Also, Ellen Degeneres is unbearably shit and it doesnt matter whether you take it up the arse, give it up the arse, want it up the arse or gobble your huge 300 pound androgenous girlfriend - sexuality has nothing to do with taste.

In summary;
I always fear for / dont know what to think about the people who think mcdonalds is a good burger, that you havent lived unless you travel, and that vast portions of your life are defined by how many boxes you tick. theres gotta be more than that, and theres no rulebook to how you live your life. I especially dont understand why breaking with conformity with something like going through a change in sexuality is accompanied by a whole new set of conformity and norms. Isnt it about time we did what we wanted and not whats expected of us?
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 08:56   #2
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Why don't you ask her? I'm more curious about her thoughts (trusting your judgement of her intelligence) on this then some semi scientific theories by the usual GD members.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 11:12   #3
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

I don't really see how you're any better, Deffeh. How many times have you said retarded things about people being "girls" because they like whatever-social-phenemenon-which-you-disapprove-of?

Anyway, I doubt it's a conscious / deliberate as you're implying.

If tomorrow I started liking football a lot more than I do, I'd probably (eventually) start listening to some retarded sports-talk-radio show and watching match of the day. I'd probably bet more on football matches. I'd end up buying some kind of football shirt for my local team. I'd find myself getting into conversations about whether striker x was a better fit for whatever team than striker y. And so on. Does this make me a terrible human being? Probably, but it also seems fairly "natural" too.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 12:32   #4
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

You can't possibly believe that x is suitable. Y's the only guy with pace in the team, how you think x, who's a bit of an aging warhorse, will improve their lot is totally beyond me. Sure, he has a good goalscoring record, but that was in the Norwegian leagues for christ's sake.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 12:56   #5
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Basically the same thing happened with a friend of mine who came out. I think myself and most of his close friends had pretty much known he was gay since the age of 16 or so, but when he came out (at 21) he all of a sudden became more camp somehow. He was reading different magazines, socialising with different people and in a different way almost. I never considered him to be altering his behaviour to feel more comfortable in a 'gay' environment. On the contrary, I felt he had been covering up his campness to a certain degree for many years, and only since he had come out did he feel comfortable being himself in this way.

Have you ever considered that a similar thing may be true for your friend?

Did she only start listening to groups with female singers after she came out btw?

Oh and of course she only makes new friends that are lesbians. She's probably on the pull.

I don't know which stereotype or group I conform to, although the number of people over the years (including my own Mother) who have discreetly asked me if I'm a lesbian is quite unreal. (They base this mainly on the fact that I have short hair and don't wear makeup.)

I like "Loud and Aggressive" music, and I own a pair of Doc Martens - does that mean I'm pigeonholing myself?


Edit courtesy of Tony.
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Last edited by Sarina_Joy; 18 Dec 2006 at 14:23.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 13:06   #6
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

So if I understand correctly you are wondering why your roommate acts like a stereotypical lesbian ever since she came out for it?
This reminds me of a fragment on an audio tape of Anthony Robbins' "lessons in mastery".
Quote:
Once upon a time there was a frog sitting near the bank of a river. Enjoying the warmth of an afternoon sun, his relaxation quickly turned to panic as he noticed a scorpion fast approaching. Startled, the frog hopped frantically toward the water, knowing well that scorpions can’t swim.

“Frog! Wait, wait!” yelled the scorpion. “I need your help!”
The frog, with caution, stopped to hear him out.
“I need to cross the river, but I can’t swim!” said the scorpion. “Can you please carry me across on your back?”
“No way!” replied the frog. “You’ll sting me.”
“Of course not. If I did that, I would drown, because I can’t swim,” said the scorpion.
Realizing this was true, he agreed to help the scorpion. He jumped in the water, the scorpion climbed on his back, and they began making their way across the river.
Halfway across, the frog looked up at the scorpion in complete disbelief, as he felt the stinger thrust into his back.
“Scorpion, why!? Now we will both drown. Why did you do this!?” yelled the frog.
“Because I’m a scorpion,” replied the scorpion. “It’s who I am.”
People tend to live up to what they believe themselves to be. So they put themselves into a stereotypical role because they believe it's what gives them "personality". Incase of your roommate, a stereotypical lesbian. I suspect when she changed her lifestyle she wanted to convince others (and herself maybe) that she indeed is a lesbian, and she took on the role of a stereotypical lesbian.
Also, stereotypes are predictable, like the scorpion in the story. And predictability is associated with reliability: something that is thought highly of in our society. So instead of breaking with the lesbian-act, which might be perceived by the people near her as unreliable, she clings on to it making herself believe this is really her.

When I first heard this audio tape I thought it was bollocks. But when I started to pay attention to my own and other peoples behaviour when it comes to stereotypical behaviour, it seems as if it's true that people try very hard to live up to their own and others' perception of themselves.

But do you want her to change?
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 13:11   #7
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You can't possibly believe that x is suitable. Y's the only guy with pace in the team, how you think x, who's a bit of an aging warhorse, will improve their lot is totally beyond me. Sure, he has a good goalscoring record, but that was in the Norwegian leagues for christ's sake.
Jakiri, I have mouth ulcers that hurt like a bitch whenever I smile. And your post was really funny and every time I read it it makes me want to laugh out loud. And it really really really hurts SO **** YOU, **** YOU IN THE ASS YOU BASTARD

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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 13:18   #8
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Maybe (and this is just a complete shot in the dark).....

She has struggled to come to terms with the mix of emotions and feelings shes had knowing full well that they do not conform to societies norms. When all her friends would talk about men shed sit there "pretending" to play along with her heart actually being in something else. As such all her life shes been a 'part of the group' knowing full well that in reality her aspirations and ambitions didnt actually coincide with that of her friends.

Now shes finally 'come out' and come to terms with herself shes realised that theres a whole other group of people just like her and for the first time in her life she feels accepted and isnt 'lying' to those around her about what she truly feels.

As such shes embraced this new social cliqué and has thrown herself into the whole 'culture' of it. She has finally been 'accepted' and possibly to ensure she doesnt 'fall back' into the catagory of 'oh shes not like us' shes making a concerted effort to be as much a part of that social grouping as she can.


Hopefully that makes sense but if it doesnt :crymeariver:
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 13:27   #9
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

'the indie craze' is another.

such people's approach is so wonderfully blind to love such a large amount of mediocrity it's beyond irritating.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 15:04   #10
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

posting first off to say im not responding to or reading any needlessly aggressive replies considering i didnt start a thread about 'i'm better than x' or 'why im right'. i thought after 20+ years maybe some of you would know better and learn how to post on an internet forum without resorting to that crap. some interesting replies though. i had a conversation with phang about it last night and while i disagree with him to a large extent the crux of our argument is there is a siege mentality, and he used the phrase 'positive enforcement' quite a bit which is reasonably apt.

What i dont accept that 'coming out' is neccesarily like being taken off the torture rack for everyone. Considering her dad is gay, her entire family have been great with her, certainly no one she knows has treated her any different. Sure, the transition is difficult, but im not buying that 'gays' are the only oppressed group in Britain/Canada. I think everyone likes that 'backs against the wall me against the world' feeling to a certain degree.

And as i should have said before, it doesnt bother me, i am happy for her, even if i dont really understand the rather seismic shift in everything she seems to do. My real question is about this conformity in general. Im sure, for example, that i really really wanted to own nike trainers when i was a little kid, but behind it moreso was the desire to look cool amongst my peers and stop wearing clarks cloggs. Thankfully i left that behind, and the ability to form my own opinions and likes and dislikes is something i value.

(Incidentally, i only started thinking about this when i remembered something she said to me before she came out a couple of years ago - it was about the sort of bitchy gay man culture - she said 'seriously, if you arent down the gym three times a week and pretty, good luck with that' or something. sort of paralels.)
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 16:04   #11
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

I can think of a few reasons why she'd change.

1. She probably hasn't changed THAT much, it's just your perception of her. I expect that if I became gay I'd probably pluck my eyebrows and take more care over my appearance with things like fake tan or whatever. If I did that now I'd be ridiculed for looking a bit "gay", but if I was actually gay then it wouldn't matter. Maybe she did like those things before but didn't want to be labelled as a "lezzer".

2. I've often wondered how gay guys find each other when not in a mostly-gay environment (eg: a gay club, or Old Compton Street). You need to find a common ground to start talking. I expect she's become interested in these "stereotypical lesbian" things so that she has something she knows she can chat about to break the ice, or to use as small talk, should there be a lull in conversation with a girl she likes.

3. The topic of her music tastes - she's a girl. I've found that generally girls do like the sound of a woman singer more than guys do. I don't know why - but it's hardly a homosexual thing.

4. Adjusting and adapting is perfectly normal. I changed when I moved from being a student to being a teacher. Suddenly I couldn't be the scruffy long-haired bum anymore - I had to look vaguely respectable so I bought suits, got my hair cut and made sure I shaved every day. Why should I cling on to the old Tom, when the new Tom fitted in much better and it made my life generally much easier?
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 18:34   #12
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

There's a reason why they call it "Coming out of the closet". Maybe this is just who she was all along?

People change all the time, to adapt to their environment, or simply to get change. To make a poor example, when I moved from my hometown of 11 000 inhabitants, where I knew everyone, to a city of nearly 200 000 to go to the university, where I knew no one, I changed my behavior a lot.

Back home, I knew everyone, and rarely talked to strangers. If I was going out, I would simply call a few friends, set a place and bring a couple of six packs. Up here, I knew 3 people. I'm not sure if it was subconsciously, or not, but I started talking to people I didn't know, I went out a lot more, invited people home for parties - in general, I became a lot better at socializing than before. I regularly speak to people I don't know, and I get new friends all the time.

These past six months have changed me more than the last 3 years at home have. Or have they?

Back home it is a very tightly knit community. There are a lot of do's and don'ts, and behaving the wrong way can give you a lot of shit. I had to restrict myself. There were no such restrictions in Trondheim.

I like to think that I don't change, but of course I do. But I don't think people change as much as we like to believe, and I guess she didn't change that much.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 18:57   #13
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

I've often wondered something similar.

When I was around 16 one of my friend told me he was gay. I didn't care; I enjoyed his company because we shared similar interests (with the exception anal sex with another gentleman, obviously), and his sexuality didn't bother me before he told me and it didn't bother me after. However, over time he became more and more camp. It was like he was conforming to a stereotype. I never understood why.

Obviously everyone conforms to a certain extent; no one wants to be an outsider - everyone wants to be accepted. But I suppose when you declare to the world you're gay/lesbian/transsexual/a poster on a popular internet discussion board you're automatically setting yourself out as different - a potential outsider. So you seek a group where people personally understand your sexuality.

I can only assume to "belong" to a group you have to exhibit some characteristic. For example, to belong to this board you have to be overly cynical and adept at calling people arseholes in witty and charismatic ways.

There's also probably something about telling the world you're different and sod you if you don't like it, or something like that, but I'm boring myself now. Why aren't I down the pub. Because it's not 9.30 that's why. There was a good scholtt's (or whoever) almanac in The Guardian today. It's a pity you didn't buy it. It was very amusing. The good people of Birmingham are the most likely to search with the word "porn" in the whole wide-world, and the second most likely to search for "kitten". See? You've learnt something today. Goodbye.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 19:13   #14
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Maybe you should just go out an find a new female roommate that isn't a lesbian and puts out, and you'll forget all about this, and it won't bother you anymore.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 19:19   #15
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
no it just means you're probably ugly as sin.
Maybe her natural beauty is of a quality to where she realizes that she doesn't need make-up to make herself look more attractive to the average male.

Personally, I prefer women who don't feel the need to hide behind make-up, rather than those who feel they have to use enough make-up you might consider them a hooker if they were standing on the street corner.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 19:57   #16
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Maybe her natural beauty is of a quality to where she realizes that she doesn't need make-up to make herself look more attractive to the average male.

Personally, I prefer women who don't feel the need to hide behind make-up, rather than those who feel they have to use enough make-up you might consider them a hooker if they were standing on the street corner.
Amount of make up used could be directly proportionate to level of insanity.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 19:59   #17
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Lot's of people, in all kinds of situations, when they go into something new, tend to go overboard for a while.

Give her a little time and she will probably display more of her old personality.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 20:03   #18
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

what's always confused me about lesbians is this - Ok they find women attractive, so do I, they're much nicer than blokes, less hairy, smoother skin etc etc. So why the hell do they go out with a girl who looks like a bloke???

Or is just that they like men but don't like cocks?
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 20:20   #19
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
what's always confused me about lesbians is this - Ok they find women attractive, so do I, they're much nicer than blokes, less hairy, smoother skin etc etc. So why the hell do they go out with a girl who looks like a bloke???

Or is just that they like men but don't like cocks?
I don't think they don't like cocks... they use fake ones, don't they.
And neither is it the looking as a bloke thing.
Perhaps they just don't like sitting on the couch and watch football?
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 20:24   #20
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I can only assume to "belong" to a group you have to exhibit some characteristic. For example, to belong to this board you have to be overly cynical and adept at calling people arseholes in witty and charismatic ways.
I do rather like this description.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
what's always confused me about lesbians is this...
...that they don't find me attractive!



Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Personally, I prefer women who don't feel the need to hide behind make-up, rather than those who feel they have to use enough make-up you might consider them a hooker if they were standing on the street corner.
Last time I checked, "amount of make-up worn" wasn't divided into two extremes
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 20:31   #21
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Personally, I prefer women who don't feel the need to hide behind make-up, rather than those who feel they have to use enough make-up you might consider them a hooker if they were standing on the street corner.
Tss, must be great, living in this world of hookers and shemales grunting to the likes of Sepultura day in they out, displaying something that, if executed by anything else than those obscene Doc Martins, would've been recognised as dancing.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 20:55   #22
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
People conform naturally.
I agree. People spend time with similar people and, through the fear of exclusion, they conform to whoever they believe are the leaders. Etc. But what interests me is how the gay community has constructed certain "characteristic of belonging". The stereotypical gay voice is a good example. The camp walk, another. I suppose they must originate from the whole liking other men thing.

I demand a cultural study into ostensibly opaque gay characteristics that result directly from male attraction in under 25 words!
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 21:05   #23
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I agree. People spend time with similar people and, through the fear of exclusion, they conform to whoever they believe are the leaders. Etc. But what interests me is how the gay community has constructed certain "characteristic of belonging". The stereotypical gay voice is a good example. The camp walk, another. I suppose they must originate from the whole liking other men thing.

I demand a cultural study into ostensibly opaque gay characteristics that result directly from male attraction in under 25 words!
Perhaps it has something to do with embracing offensive and degrogatory terms (whether these are words or actions or whatever) and 'taking control' or whatever.

An example of this can be seen in rap music where black people have taken the offensive word (you know the one I mean) and use it in reference to themselves. Whilst this might have been the original intention it would over time become part of the scene and even if the understanding is lost the action continues, kind of like a tradition.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 21:11   #24
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

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and 'taking control' or whatever.
I choose whatever!














Yeah probably.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 22:16   #25
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

the second wave of replies in this thread was off immeasurably better quality than the first.

interesting answers. though it all leads down the same path most discussions involving me do, namely that i dont quite understand why i dont exibit the same characteristics as the 'people' we talk about.

i blame my lack of sex drive, which subsequently lowers my desire to impress anyone for any reason.
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 22:23   #26
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

depends on what people. if you're not gay, it's because you're not gay (in that you don't care about fitting in with gays). if you are gay, it's because you're divergent!
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Unread 18 Dec 2006, 23:13   #27
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Maybe it's like she had interests in x,y,z areas but due to being a repressed carpet-muncher xxx area was off-limits. Now that she's out she's just exploding into her newly discovered field of interest and what with all the repression from before isn't finding time for anything else due to the novelty factor involved. Or maybe psychological theories from the internet don't work so well. I'm not sure.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 00:33   #28
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Oh I pulled one of my friends who's a lesbian (and engaged to her girlfriend) on Saturday. That was really great*. This would be a bit of a boast I suppose except she isn't really that attractive (at all).

She wanted me to go to a strip club with her after too! I'm sure she wouldn't have been interested in that before she "came out"!



*not great. incredibly awkward. a complete mess.
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 00:43   #29
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

gotta love lesbians
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 03:58   #30
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
This reminds me of a fragment on an audio tape of Anthony Robbins' "lessons in mastery".

I told that story to my team at work. They didn't understand :(
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Unread 19 Dec 2006, 11:19   #31
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

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I told that story to my team at work. They didn't understand
They must all be naive frogs. Go ahead Dace, you can sting them, but be carefull not to go down with them.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 20:48   #32
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
They must all be naive frogs. Go ahead Dace, you can sting them, but be carefull not to go down on them.
fixed
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 22:56   #33
Structural Integrity
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Re: Self inflicted Pigeonholing

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
fixed
I think something went lost.
Or if you just agree with me, you can also just green-blob me.
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