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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 10:32   #1
Smudge
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Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei has announced his resignation, saying Hamas must form the next government following the parliamentary elections.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 12:11   #2
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
The Palestinian authority hae been shit for decades.
Well, it was only established in 1994 but it's safe to say the PLO lost their right to be the sole spokesmen for the Palesteninan people as of the Oslo accords at the latest.

As well as effectiveness there is also the issue of the perception of corruption - Hamas are not yet as tainted as Fatah are when it comes to allegations of cronyism and bribery, etc.

edit: This is even more amusing given the recent allegations that the US Agency for International Development were indirectly supporting Fatah against Hamas to the tune of $2 million.

edit2 : I am not sure what "terrorist regime" means in the thread title.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 26 Jan 2006 at 12:24.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 12:16   #3
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

when ever people speak about hamas I cant stop thinking of houmas, mmmmm. Seriously ;/
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 15:00   #4
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Genuinely laughing out loud. What with Israel being committed to unilateralism and Hamas to the destruction of the Israeli state I do sincerely wonder how anything could be negotiated. They'll be shoving each other aside in order to make it out the door and announce that it just can't work first. I really enjoyed
Quote:
"A political party, in order to be viable, is one that professes peace, in my judgement, in order that it will keep the peace," Mr Bush told the Wall Street Journal.
though. Top drawer stuff old boy.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:31   #5
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

The elections were free and fair although restricted in some areas. This is a good thing.
It's just unfortunate that Isreal and the West in general have done so much crap to Palestines that they percieve Hammas as their only viable option. How this pans out will certainly be interesting, and quite probably bloody.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:33   #6
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
when ever people speak about hamas I cant stop thinking of houmas, mmmmm. Seriously ;/
bowl of hummus
plate of freshly cooked shredded chicken
pitta bread

I swear thats one of the best nights out ive had in decades.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 20:16   #7
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

PS : The Middle East Peace Process is Dead.

How can anyone negotiate with Hamas when as soon as one of their representatives steps foot on Israeli (or anyone elses) soil, theyre going to be arrested for the crimes their group has commited.

Im pretty sure even membership of Hamas is outlawed in Israel, so them being in power is a bad, bad thing.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 20:34   #8
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
PS : The Middle East Peace Process is Dead.

How can anyone negotiate with Hamas when as soon as one of their representatives steps foot on Israeli (or anyone elses) soil, theyre going to be arrested for the crimes their group has commited.

Im pretty sure even membership of Hamas is outlawed in Israel, so them being in power is a bad, bad thing.
Surely it means that Israel outlawing being a member of certain political parties is a bad, bad thing?
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 22:54   #9
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Now we just need to give Hamas some decent weapons, and Israel will be asking for peace soon.

Problem solved.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 23:04   #10
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Now we just need to give Hamas some decent weapons, and Israel will be asking for peace soon.

Problem solved.


this is to say that i wanted to neg rep you for this but couldn't, as i appear to have neg repped you recently

what a crap and trollish comment that brought nothing to the discussion at hand
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 23:18   #11
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Oh, do I need to spell it out for you? I mean, I know you are not that clever, but I belived it was pretty obvious.

Have you seen peace between unequal partners, where one have everything off military hardware one could possibly want and the other have nothing more than AK47's?
Without a reliable military opponent, Israel will draw the borders as the please, as indicated by the leader of Kadima (Olmert). That means keeping all the big settlements on the West Bank, for instance. The palestinians won't be satisified with the little they will get, and so the war will continue.

Now, do you get it, or do I have to spell it for you one more time?
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 00:16   #12
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Surely it means that Israel outlawing being a member of certain political parties is a bad, bad thing?
Bearing in mind Israel is
  • A Nuclear Power
  • Has one of the best trained military forces in the world
  • Could invade Palestine and slaughter every man, woman and child overnight
Id say Israel can pretty much outlaw what it likes, since nobody in a position of power is going to do a damned thing about it in the Western World, and no amount of us denoucing it on GD is going to change a ****ing thing.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 00:25   #13
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
  • Could invade Palestine and slaughter every man, woman and child overnight
This is true in a military sense perhaps, but it's not really a feasible strategy in political terms. As it stands, Israel can keep going along the path of violence but in the longer term they are doomed if they do.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 00:32   #14
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Bearing in mind Israel is
  • A Nuclear Power
  • Has one of the best trained military forces in the world
  • Could invade Palestine and slaughter every man, woman and child overnight
Id say Israel can pretty much outlaw what it likes, since nobody in a position of power is going to do a damned thing about it in the Western World, and no amount of us denoucing it on GD is going to change a ****ing thing.
Ah, one apologises. I thought I saw you laying moral culpability at Palestine's doorstep. My bad.



PS That's a very strange second sentence T&F.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 00:44   #15
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is true in a military sense perhaps, but it's not really a feasible strategy in political terms. As it stands, Israel can keep going along the path of violence but in the longer term they are doomed if they do.
Its a government funded by the dollars of the biggest economic superpower in the world.

Its a feasible long term strategy until your enemy gives up. Their resources arent limitless, but **** me, theyre limitless IN COMPARISON to the resources of the palestinians.

Hamas can only rely on George Galloway donating his fees once a year.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 00:46   #16
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

It's a bit useless to nuke someone who lives in so close to you..... Israel nuking Gaza is like I should nuke the guy who lives across my street. Somehow I think I would be effected
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 00:54   #17
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Its a government funded by the dollars of the biggest economic superpower in the world.

Its a feasible long term strategy until your enemy gives up. Their resources arent limitless, but **** me, theyre limitless IN COMPARISON to the resources of the palestinians.
You're still seeing this in military terms. Analysing in that fashion only yields superficial results.

And the Arabs aren't just going to "give up". If they killed every Palestenian,
a) They would be under incredible economic pressure, sanctions, etc
b) They would be politically ****ed
c) They'd have pretty made sure they could never ever make piece with the millions of Arabs who surround them and the hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world.

It would, ultimately, be a death sentence for Israel.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 00:55   #18
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Its a government funded by the dollars of the biggest economic superpower in the world.

Its a feasible long term strategy until your enemy gives up. Their resources arent limitless, but **** me, theyre limitless IN COMPARISON to the resources of the palestinians.

Hamas can only rely on George Galloway donating his fees once a year.
Israel going into Palestine and slaughtering women and children is only slightly less probable than me sprouting wings and flying over to the Isle of Man in order to award a medal for Outstanding Understanding of the International Political Landscape with Special Reference to Moral Judgements at a Mass Level.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 02:51   #19
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You're still seeing this in military terms. Analysing in that fashion only yields superficial results.

And the Arabs aren't just going to "give up". If they killed every Palestenian,
a) They would be under incredible economic pressure, sanctions, etc
b) They would be politically ****ed
c) They'd have pretty made sure they could never ever make piece with the millions of Arabs who surround them and the hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world.

It would, ultimately, be a death sentence for Israel.
To answer the three points in order

a : Israel would be under intense economic pressure/sanctions.

Wouldnt happen. This would have to be okayed with the US, and theres absoloutely not a hope in hell that would happen. Theres more chance of JBG carrying out his statement above. The USA is the single main backer of Israel and has a foreign policy which is increasingly anti-arab.

b : they would be politically ****ed

Israel doesnt have a huge influence on the foreign policy of any nation other than the US. It has minimal contact with any of its neighbours, and its export market is mainly Europe & the US (If the USA Sneezes , Britain catches a cold. This isnt too far off the current working model of the European Economies). Who can exert political pressure on Israel? See answer A.

c : Theyd have ensured theyd never make peace with the Arabs

This statement assumes that Israel actually wants this to happen. Since the formation of their country, Israel has been attacked and harassed by its neighbours until the "relative" peace of the last 10 years, whereby Syria , Jordan & Egypt have effectively acknowledged that Israel can, if it sets its mind to it, beat the living shit out of them. Their sole problem at the moment is the palestinians, a small but vocal minority.

As any watcher of government the world over knows, you either appease a minority or crush them. The latter brings condemnation, but if youre a superpower (see Tianaman Square) you can take international condemnation and ignore it.

A death sentence on Israel can only be passed by the United States saying, unanimously, that it disagrees with the entire Israeli nation, and that they will not assist or intervene if Israel is attacked by its neighbours.

short of that, as scary as it is to say, theyre borderline untouchable. Its a fair bet that Israel's secret service carries out a lot of those particularly messy and unpleasant international operations that western governments want "plausible deniability" for. A Wiki on Mossad would be merely the start of a truly interesting internet journey.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 02:56   #20
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yeah I thought that to. I think I was more responding to Kura's bluster about the powerful Israelis. they need the Palestians, they just don't know it.
Id like you to expand on this a little further. Im well aware theres a few books floating around citing how Israeli's and Palestinians have developed a symbiotic relationship whereby one cannot exist without the other, and im sure that the Palestinian issue allows Israel to do other things unnoticed by the world because some kid throwing rocks at an outpost took a snipers bullet to the forehead.

However, if Israel woke up tomorrow and discovered Palestine wasnt there, they just had miles and miles of coastline, the first thing they would be doing is building a naval base and working out where this meant they stood militarily in regards to their neighbouring countries (again). They wouldnt be mourning the loss of an issue that has cost them thousands of lives and millions and millions of military shekels.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 03:07   #21
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
However, if Israel woke up tomorrow and discovered Palestine wasnt there, they just had miles and miles of coastline, the first thing they would be doing is building a naval base and working out where this meant they stood militarily in regards to their neighbouring countries (again). They wouldnt be mourning the loss of an issue that has cost them thousands of lives and millions and millions of military shekels.
1) are you suggesting that israel lacks a coastline?
2) are you suggesting that the palestinian state occupies a larger coastline?
3) have you ever bothered to consider the real facts before forming an opinion?
4) have you ever considered that history is something to actively study rather than to piece together out of the writing on the back of cereal packets?
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 06:37   #22
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Hamas bein g in power is a bad thing but the Israelis only have themsleves to blame. It was them who chose not to deal with Fatah and it was them who chose to move thousands of illegal settlers into the West Bank a month before the Palestinian election. They are the ones building a big wall in Palestinian territory. Hamas may be sack of hammers but where else are the Palestinians to turn?
Well it's actually worse than the Israelies just not dealing with Fatah. Basically they tried to crush any power regieme the Palestinians had until international pressure made it impossible to ignore Fatah.
Then they repressed Palestinians enough until the Fatah movement itself imploded into croneyism and corruption. So the only two options they had were fighting Isreal with Hamas and taking handouts in attempt to help ordinary people, or having to deal with a corrupt 'old boys' party and try not to 'dissapear' if you spoke up against them.

Then the world expected Fatah to reform itself overnight when Arafat died, and then take over as the voice of all Palestinians (something that would have ment civil war).

So as long as Hamas was around, Isreal could justify it's military and repressive actions against Palestinians. And as long as Fatah was a toothless tiger, then it could do whatever he hell it wanted politically.

So this is just going to be an excuse for the hawks in Israel to dig their claws in further, and it will be a make or break time for Palestinians.

To be honest, it might have been a lot different if all Palestinians were allowed to vote and not just the restricted few allowd by Israel.
Irony abounds.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 09:38   #23
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
1) are you suggesting that israel lacks a coastline?
2) are you suggesting that the palestinian state occupies a larger coastline?
3) have you ever bothered to consider the real facts before forming an opinion?
4) have you ever considered that history is something to actively study rather than to piece together out of the writing on the back of cereal packets?
1. Im suggesting they would build another naval base. Your assumption is based on some wild eyed theory that everyone but yourself is stupid. Get over it.

2. See answer 1.

3. Would you like to provide said real facts instead of flapping yer gums? It gets boring after a while.

4. History shows global warming has increased in line with the decrease of the number of pirates operating in the waters off the UK Coast. This particular piece of information is one of millions which have no relevance to this debate, rather like your cereal packet theory.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 09:50   #24
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
PS : The Middle East Peace Process is Dead.

How can anyone negotiate with Hamas when as soon as one of their representatives steps foot on Israeli (or anyone elses) soil, theyre going to be arrested for the crimes their group has commited.

Im pretty sure even membership of Hamas is outlawed in Israel, so them being in power is a bad, bad thing.
Doesn't political immunity solve that problem about arrests now?

Kinda amusing though. Hamas will be representing the palestinian state, which is an official country afaik? In not recognizing Hamas as the leaders of the palestines, Israel and the USA simply don't recognize the palestinian state imo.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 14:25   #25
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
1. Im suggesting they would build another naval base. Your assumption is based on some wild eyed theory that everyone but yourself is stupid. Get over it.

2. See answer 1.

3. Would you like to provide said real facts instead of flapping yer gums? It gets boring after a while.

4. History shows global warming has increased in line with the decrease of the number of pirates operating in the waters off the UK Coast. This particular piece of information is one of millions which have no relevance to this debate, rather like your cereal packet theory.
All good theories are mocked at the begining
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 14:44   #26
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

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I am confused, is a free election suddenly a bad thing?
Yes.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 15:40   #27
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
To answer the three points in order

a : Israel would be under intense economic pressure/sanctions.

Wouldnt happen. This would have to be okayed with the US, and theres absoloutely not a hope in hell that would happen. Theres more chance of JBG carrying out his statement above. The USA is the single main backer of Israel and has a foreign policy which is increasingly anti-arab.
No offence kura but that's just crap. No country on the face of the planet can even appear to commit mass murder on that vast a level. It's not deniable and there is no way of shifting the moral culpability onto the Palestinians. We're talking genocide here, the most emotive word in political parlance at the minute. I'm not too sure if you think americans are all a bunch of fanatical racist lunatics at the minute but I can assure you that the slaughter of three million Palestinians would be publicised to the extent as to turn at least 90% of Americans against the state of Israel.


Quote:
c : Theyd have ensured theyd never make peace with the Arabs

This statement assumes that Israel actually wants this to happen. Since the formation of their country, Israel has been attacked and harassed by its neighbours until the "relative" peace of the last 10 years, whereby Syria , Jordan & Egypt have effectively acknowledged that Israel can, if it sets its mind to it, beat the living shit out of them. Their sole problem at the moment is the palestinians, a small but vocal minority.
Actually Egypt has acknowledged the existence of Israel since dear old doomed Mr. Sadat signed the peace treaty in 1979. The Israel-Jordan peace treaty of course took place in 1994 and Syria has not to my knowledge signed any treaty with Israel due to ongoing disputes over the status of Israeli-controlled parts of the Golan Heights. The last war, that being the Yom Kippur war, took place in 1973 so I'm not really sure where you're getting "the last 10 years" from. There are 2,385,615 Palestinians in the west bank, 1,376,289 in the Gaza Strip, 1.35 million Arabs in the state of Israel itself. There were 700,000 Palestinians who fled Israel in 1948 and the resultant refugee population is somewhere around 2.5 million in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, of these approximately 650,000 Palestinians live in refugee camps in these three countries. There are approximately 5.2 million Jews living in israel. Small but vocal minority my left ****ing bollock.

Quote:
As any watcher of government the world over knows, you either appease a minority or crush them. The latter brings condemnation, but if youre a superpower (see Tianaman Square) you can take international condemnation and ignore it.
You should note that since Tianamen square there has been a general loosening in terms of, obviously, economic freedoms, and more subtly, and partly more accidentally, in other areas. In the long run you either need to have a system that is morally reprehensible by western standards in place or you talk to the people you're oppressing.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 15:47   #28
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Remember that PLO was rated as an terrorist organisation before the Oslo agreement.

Hamas, has as many people have said in this thread been basically the only ones helping to mend the social problems that have been troubling Palestina besides the Israeli troubles. People have grown tired of not to have adequate social care and medication in order.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 20:05   #29
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

I actually think it's a great thing, and I'm by no way a Hamas lover. Their views on religion, woman rights, gay's and lots of other things are very far from mine.
I think it's great for several points.
1. The "peace" process will probably be halted. This is a good thing, as the so called "peace" is built on the premises and wishes of a few rich and corrupt palestinians and Israel, not the regular palestinians. The peace that would have come out of these agreements (like the Oslo treaties) would not make life better for the regular joe in Palestine. As long as the wall is where it is, as long as the refugees (that are the majority of palestinians) are not allowed to come back (or even vote), as long as Israel is built on racism, and a lot of other issues (settlements, militarypower, corruption, prisoners, land, resources and so on) the peace is not peace but suppresion.
2. Hopefully, the corruption will go down, and more money will end up in hospitals, schools and so on, instead of expensive cars and luxury houses for the leaders. Hamas leaders are people who mostly have lived in Palestine all their lives and thus know their people, and they are not yet corrupted by power. Hopefully, this will not change.

When I started to write this, I had more points, but I can't remeber

Anyways, the only peace as I can see it lies in no two-state sollutions or peace. It lies in changing the whole region to be a place where everybody can live, no matter ethnicity or religion. Israel is as bad as South Africa was, or even worse, in my eyes. It's a nation built around racism. As long as Zionism is the leading way in Israel, no peace will come. I don't think Hamas winning will bring the peace closer, but it will hopefully halt the hypocritical and racists peace processes that only left-wing redwinelovers and rightwing pro-zionists are for.
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 20:26   #30
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

The Neverending Hilarity of The Nation-state Concept.


It should have been one mark
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Unread 27 Jan 2006, 20:35   #31
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Exclamation Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Remember that PLO was rated as an terrorist organisation before the Oslo agreement.
Hamas is still rated as a terrorist organization (by the EU and the US, amongst others).

Virtually no one would deal with the PLO until they recognized Israel's right to exist and renounced violence (you may recall that Arafat spent years semantically dancing around these points). Now we get to watch Hamas dance around them--which they will have to do or risk getting filed under 'Pariahs, International' like the PLO was for so many years. They might not care about being diplomatically isolated, but if they look at the books they might notice that over half of Palestine's foreign aid comes from the EU; who aren't going to fund a terrorist organization.

The more things change... :/
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Unread 28 Jan 2006, 06:39   #32
G.K Zhukov
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

EU and USA threathens to pull aid, if not Hamas obeys orders.

So Hamas is elected by the palestinian people on a certain political plattform. But then Hamas is to obey foreign powers, instead of the voters, and just burn up its political program...
So much for the EU/US version of democracy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...696871,00.html
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Unread 28 Jan 2006, 06:55   #33
JonnyBGood
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Re: Terrorist Regime appears to be going into Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
EU and USA threathens to pull aid, if not Hamas obeys orders.

So Hamas is elected by the palestinian people on a certain political plattform. But then Hamas is to obey foreign powers, instead of the voters, and just burn up its political program...
So much for the EU/US version of democracy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...696871,00.html
In fairness withdrawing aid is a lot different to using force to compel.
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