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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 20:51   #1
NitinA
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CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Okay, now, I know this is a delicate topic, and I would like to preface the question with a bit of psychology. Now, no one can argue that child molestation isn't damaging, it is absolutely terrible. It is bad in a way that that I cannot put into words. Okay, that's out of the way.

But pedophilia is *not* child molestation in the same way that homosexuality is not gay sex. A pedophile is a person who, due to a defect in their psyche, finds sexual attraction in children. The most likely cause in many situations: they were molested, themselves. Let us draw the distinction, right now, between the word "pedophile" and "child molester." A pedophile is a person with a woefully defective mind, a child molester is a committer of a most heinous crime.

Now, there is no "cure" for pedophilia. The common therapy for a pedophile is associative therapy. They are trained to associate disgusting images or smells with the idea of nude children, but that is conditioning, it isn't cure..

Now, let us say that a company comes out with a new type of pornography. They can generate kiddie porn that is absolutely real-appearing. Should they? Would it lower the amount of real molestation? Would it solve the problem of real kiddie porn? Should it be illegal? If so, why? If it was illegalized, do you think that could slide into cases for the illegalization of grown up porn?

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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 20:56   #2
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Yeah, it's about as sensitive an area around here as a brick to the face is.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 20:56   #3
Dante Hicks
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

We've discussed this issue before I believe (although I cba to find any threads).

Anyway, of course it shouldn't be illegal (simulated, animated or cgi child porn).
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 20:57   #4
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

i support this wholeheartedly, if only to be controversial, but still, its there.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 21:09   #5
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Isnt this just what hentai is?
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 21:10   #6
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

OK I lied, I could be bothered. There's quite a lot of the debate here : http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...5&page=1&pp=50

Although that's the child porn issue generally, rather than specifically about similated child porn.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 22:42   #7
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

i don't see how one person can be in favor of using the nazi medical data we already have and against using the kiddie porn we already have.

it just seems untennable from every angle to me.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 22:44   #8
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Well I for one welcome our new 3D modelling overlords
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 22:58   #9
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
We've discussed this issue before I believe (although I cba to find any threads).

Anyway, of course it shouldn't be illegal (simulated, animated or cgi child porn).
By simulated you mean a grown man pretending to have sex with a little kid? Seems pretty wrong to me.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 23:01   #10
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
By simulated you mean a grown man pretending to have sex with a little kid? Seems pretty wrong to me.
why?

and think before you answer rather than just roll out what you read in the mail yesterday.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 23:04   #11
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
why?

and think before you answer rather than just roll out what you read in the mail yesterday.
Because even if the little kid isn't being penetrated I still think that being involved in softcore porn would still mess him/her up psychologically.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 23:08   #12
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

sorry, i thought by "simulated" you meant drawn or cgi or something, my bad

yeah, that is pretty bad.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 23:33   #13
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
By simulated you mean a grown man pretending to have sex with a little kid? Seems pretty wrong to me.
I didn't mean simulated in that fashion. At the moment, I think in some countries it's illegal for a character who is depicting someone under 18 to have sex even if the actor is 18 or over.
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Unread 19 Sep 2005, 23:34   #14
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
it just seems untennable from every angle to me.
Chances of nazi regime arising in similar scenario to the 1930's : Very low.
Chances of random kid being abused in similar fashion to child porn : Very high

Of course I agree, but I can see there's an argument there.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 00:07   #15
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
due to a defect in their psyche
No. You're wrong. It is not a defect. It is a cultural preference to not have sex with children. In other cultures it is okay to have sex with children, and it is not seen as a defect. In parts of Africa young, preteen, boys seek out older males to perform oral sex on them (don't ask me why), and in parts of the South Pacific and Southeast Asia women comfort their very young children by stroking their genital area or even sucking on their little boy's penis.

No joke. I studied Anthropology. No behavior in humans is caused by any kind of 'defect', as that would assume that humans were designed with purpose. Humans just are, and the vast majority of our behavior is due to culture.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 00:25   #16
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Theres actually a lolita type polish film (cant remember the name sorry) in which a 16 year girl gets boned silly by an old man, showing tits n all....
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 01:00   #17
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

I am reluctant to get into this debate.

all i will tell you is that the british government has already made what it calls 'psuedo images' of child pornography illegal.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 04:13   #18
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Doesn't this already happen in hentai anyway? agree with dante btw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arachnidman
Theres actually a lolita type polish film (cant remember the name sorry) in which a 16 year girl gets boned silly by an old man, showing tits n all....
/not really relevant

16 yr old tits in britain weren't all that uncommon all that long ago, iirc the sun and other such papers were/are banned in the US because they've had topless 16 yr olds on page 3 in the past, they may have raised the age limit recently tho
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 05:53   #19
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

I don't like it. Simulating an acceptance of child molestation by legalizing simulations of sex acts against children is dangerous at best. If there is something which a society finds heinous, they should not encourage it in any way.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 06:17   #20
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If there is something which a society finds heinous, they should not encourage it in any way.
I agree. However, I do not see how 'not criminalising' something is encouraging it.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 06:22   #21
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Exclamation Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I don't like it. Simulating an acceptance of child molestation by legalizing simulations of sex acts against children is dangerous at best. If there is something which a society finds heinous, they should not encourage it in any way.
I'm not sure I'd equate legalizing something with encouraging it; at least, that's one of the arguments that pops up when discussing the legal status of tobacco, alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, etc. And if simulated pictures constitutes encouragement, then what about fictional stories?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 06:38   #22
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I'm not sure I'd equate legalizing something with encouraging it; at least, that's one of the arguments that pops up when discussing the legal status of tobacco, alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitution, etc.
Bonifide child molesters have been known to use child pornography in order to attempt to seduce children. "See this is natural!" Simulated child pornography will make it easier for these individuals to obtain the pornography. It will remove a tool for getting them off of the streets because it will be "legal" to posess it. If a child gets exposed to child pornography that is also psychologicly damaging. The incidence of this would go up.
Quote:
And if simulated pictures constitutes encouragement, then what about fictional stories?
It depends on the context of the story.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 07:00   #23
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Bonifide child molesters have been known to use child pornography in order to attempt to seduce children. "See this is natural!" Simulated child pornography will make it easier for these individuals to obtain the pornography. It will remove a tool for getting them off of the streets because it will be "legal" to posess it. If a child gets exposed to child pornography that is also psychologicly damaging. The incidence of this would go up. It depends on the context of the story.
I think what we do to convicted child molesters is heinous. They are treated worse than violent criminals (except the ones the state murders). They are forced to register, they are tracked for the rest of their lives, they've become some kind of official subhuman after a conviction.

Child abuse of any kind is inexcusable and ought to be criminal. I have no argument with that. But our American society is ****ing obsessed with the sanctity of children. This obsession is out of control, in my opinion, and is deleterious to women's health and to the children themselves.

Our society wants to legislate pregnant women's behavior to an extent that would not be tolerated in any other context.

We tear children out of homes when they're neglected or abused without a thought of where they'll go next and they end up worse than they were off (and yes that's exactly what happened to me and I know the child protective service intimately - it's a colossal disaster). We create life long victims out of 'abused' kids who have trouble adjusting into positive long term relationships the rest of their lives.

To some extent grown men are unable to have a positive relationship with children, because it's seen as unnatural.

In an epic quest to protect children that people in reality don't actually care about the children end up worse off than they would have otherwise.

Just my two cents.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 07:39   #24
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Bonifide child molesters have been known to use child pornography in order to attempt to seduce children.
How often has this happened? Is there any evidence that a significant number of child molesters have used child pornography to seduce children who would not otherwise have wanted to sleep with them?

Quote:
Simulated child pornography will make it easier for these individuals to obtain the pornography.
Make it easier than what? Typing 'child porn' into google and clicking on a few links?

Quote:
It will remove a tool for getting them off of the streets because it will be "legal" to posess it.
If theres no harm in possessing it then why do you want to get them off the street?

Quote:
If a child gets exposed to child pornography that is also psychologicly damaging. The incidence of this would go up.
Is there any evidence that exposing children to paedo porn is psychologically damaging? What does it mean to be 'psychologically damaged', and do we have a criterion for classifying people in this way? Does seeing normal pornography damage children psychologically? How about seeing women wearing low cut tops?

Last edited by Nodrog; 20 Sep 2005 at 07:45.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 09:03   #25
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

As Jimmy Carr said:

"Is it wrong to genetically modify pigs in order to lure paedophiles away from babies

They'll squeel, but not to the cops!"

So wrong but yet had me in stitches
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 12:14   #26
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
It will remove a tool for getting them off of the streets because it will be "legal" to posess it.
Can't the Thought Police catch them wheteher they possess or not?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 12:29   #27
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Maybe if people were made to feel slightly more comfortable about coming out and admitting yeah I actually do have sexual thoughts about children and I'd appreciate some help in this matter there'd be less cases of child abuse. Of course maybe if we just get everyone down at the sun to write articles calling them inhuman monsters it'd work as well. You never can tell can you?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 12:31   #28
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

getting kicks from having sex with a child is wrong
and the perpetrator should be shot

imo
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 12:33   #29
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Exclamation Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Maybe if people were made to feel slightly more comfortable about coming out and admitting yeah I actually do have sexual thoughts about children and I'd appreciate some help in this matter there'd be less cases of child abuse.
.









....



















Okay, so I admit it; I want to stick it in Hermione's pooper.


:/


Are you satisfied now?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 13:05   #30
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

OK, so child sex is wrong, getting kicks from having sex with a child is wrong, child exploitation and abuse is wrong. We are unanimous.

However the actual question is, is there any danger from child-sex related materiels that do not in any way actually involve a child, such as fiction and animation?

Well the real answer is, we don't reall know. Because of the utter black-and-white nature of the western world's view on the subject, investigation and research has not really been possible. For example, I have certainly heard of cases of a child-molester using child porn to entice a child, but anecdotal cases do not prove anything. I have also heard that child porn excited pedophiles to attack, while others have claimed it provides them with a safe outlet for their urges.

Really, we don't know yet. Thus, since we remain in relative ignorance about the actual dangers of things like CGI child porn, I for one would err on the side of caution and make it illegal.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 14:45   #31
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
OK, so child sex is wrong, getting kicks from having sex with a child is wrong, child exploitation and abuse is wrong. We are unanimous.

However the actual question is, is there any danger from child-sex related materiels that do not in any way actually involve a child, such as fiction and animation?

Well the real answer is, we don't reall know. Because of the utter black-and-white nature of the western world's view on the subject, investigation and research has not really been possible. For example, I have certainly heard of cases of a child-molester using child porn to entice a child, but anecdotal cases do not prove anything. I have also heard that child porn excited pedophiles to attack, while others have claimed it provides them with a safe outlet for their urges.

Really, we don't know yet. Thus, since we remain in relative ignorance about the actual dangers of things like CGI child porn, I for one would err on the side of caution and make it illegal.
One of the most sensible posts I have ever read on GD!

I want to see Yahwe say more on the subject tbh
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 15:00   #32
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
OK, so child sex is wrong, getting kicks from having sex with a child is wrong, child exploitation and abuse is wrong. We are unanimous.

However the actual question is, is there any danger from child-sex related materiels that do not in any way actually involve a child, such as fiction and animation?

Well the real answer is, we don't reall know. Because of the utter black-and-white nature of the western world's view on the subject, investigation and research has not really been possible. For example, I have certainly heard of cases of a child-molester using child porn to entice a child, but anecdotal cases do not prove anything. I have also heard that child porn excited pedophiles to attack, while others have claimed it provides them with a safe outlet for their urges.

Really, we don't know yet. Thus, since we remain in relative ignorance about the actual dangers of things like CGI child porn, I for one would err on the side of caution and make it illegal.
I think that the argument is similar to downloading mp3's off the internet. For years music companies were bitching about how bad illegal downloads were and how they were destroying the industry. Then one day some clever people decided that they could actually make some money off the idea and legal downloads were introduced.

As long as we have the internet people who want to acquire illegal child porn will always have the option to do so. If we introduce a legal form of it then if nothing else it will reduce the demand for child porn that actually involves children.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 15:17   #33
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Armed robbery and murder etc are serious illegal acts yet simulated versions of these crimes are allowed as mass entertainment. It's like the victim in CGI CP is some fuzzy personification of the innocence of childhood. I do accept banning it as a form of crime prevention, "to be on the safe side", but it doesn't seem to be based on evidence. I expect the creators of these images would try to have them classed as art rather than pornography.

I can't help thinking there are lots of people out there making children's lives a misery, known to their victims, and abusing their position of trust. They don't have the internet, and have never heard of CGI. They're happy to see police resources diverted away from protecting real children, and they're laughing at the sad man on the front page of the local paper who lost everything for a few dodgy pics browsed in weakness.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 16:20   #34
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
OK, so child sex is wrong, getting kicks from having sex with a child is wrong, child exploitation and abuse is wrong. We are unanimous.

However the actual question is, is there any danger from child-sex related materiels that do not in any way actually involve a child, such as fiction and animation?

Well the real answer is, we don't reall know. Because of the utter black-and-white nature of the western world's view on the subject, investigation and research has not really been possible. For example, I have certainly heard of cases of a child-molester using child porn to entice a child, but anecdotal cases do not prove anything. I have also heard that child porn excited pedophiles to attack, while others have claimed it provides them with a safe outlet for their urges.

Really, we don't know yet. Thus, since we remain in relative ignorance about the actual dangers of things like CGI child porn, I for one would err on the side of caution and make it illegal.
lo verm.

would you have favored illegalizing general faggotry 50 years ago on the grounds that even though there was insufficient data to prove that faggotry was a significant contributor to evil and bad in society, it was still better to err on the safe side?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 16:21   #35
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
getting kicks from having sex with a child is wrong
and the perpetrator should be shot

imo
I think you should be shot.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 16:29   #36
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
lo verm.

would you have favored illegalizing general faggotry 50 years ago on the grounds that even though there was insufficient data to prove that faggotry was a significant contributor to evil and bad in society, it was still better to err on the safe side?
'lo acropy

This issue has nothing to do with the dangers of child pornography to general society. If thats all we were talking about, then I would say legalise it right away.

What we are talking about is the danger of child pornography to individual children. Not some hypothetical imposed sociatal standard, but one of specific harm to specific people.

Besides, 50 years ago there was plenty of evidence that homosexuality was no threat to society, people just chose to ignore it.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:00   #37
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I think you should be shot.
i think lots of people should be shot
people who wilfully abuse innocents are amoung that number
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:04   #38
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

and i am not being a troll about this actually
it is what i really think
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:10   #39
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

s|k probably disagreed with you because you missed the point of the thread, which is about whether artistic representations of abuse should be illegal
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:18   #40
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
i think lots of people should be shot
Really? Would you line them up yourself? Maybe watch over them as they dig their own grave? What kind of rifle/gun would you use?

Their terror will be your happiness. I can see your heart jump with joy as the bullets perforate their bodies.

Are you going to stand over their crumbled, bloodied bodies and with glee in your heart give a shout of triumph? Will you have their relatives watch?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:19   #41
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

s/k wasnt talking about artistic representation of abuse either.
He thinks it is wrong that convicted child molesters are treated like violent criminals, i think that child molesters are worse than violent criminals.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:22   #42
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

i find it depressing that a hacker will get a longer jail sentance than someone convicted of gbh

[/off topic]

ps no doubt Yahwe will come along and shout at me for being wrong
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:23   #43
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
s|k probably disagreed with you because you missed the point of the thread, which is about whether artistic representations of abuse should be illegal
I thought Dante and Tacitus pretty much covered my views on the subject, I've been kind of off topic myself. Just responding to bigotry when I see it! ;|
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:24   #44
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Really? Would you line them up yourself? Maybe watch over them as they dig their own grave? What kind of rifle/gun would you use?

Are you going to stand over their crumbled, bloodied bodies and with glee in your heart give a shout of triumph? Will you have their relatives watch?
i wouldnt expect them to dig their own grave, and a swift and efficient fire arm at close range.
and no there wouldnt be glee in my heart, but probably some degree of relief that a sick pervert who wilfully abuses and in most cases ruins innocent lives will not harm anyone else.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:24   #45
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
They weren't innocent. They asked for it.
Walking along so cute in their pig tails and short skirts they deserved everything that came in them.
fixed
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:25   #46
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
s/k
It's a |
Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
i think that child molesters are worse than violent criminals.
Why?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:30   #47
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
aa sick pervert who wilfully abuses and in most cases ruins innocent lives
I already explained that it is not a sickness. I will argue that it is society that ruins the children by telling them that they have experienced something horrible and then expects them to have ruined lives. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You don't really care about the children madi. You don't even know them. It is your own sensibilities that are offended, it is you is demanding that something YOU see as an atrocity be punished for your own selfish gratification. And the measure of punishment you're willing to pursue for your own selfish reasons is the most extreme. You're a bigot.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:35   #48
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Why?
having sex with a child is an act of criminal violence.
why do you believe that it should be treated with less severity?

and why do you really think that it is ok for a convicted child molester to have free reign in society?
to be allowed to walk through playgrounds and parks without being watched or registered so that they can harm more innocent lives?
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:44   #49
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
having sex with a child is an act of criminal violence.
I agree with this statement, but I realize it is based on cultural assumptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
why do you believe that it should be treated with less severity?
Less severity than being shot? Because I am a conscientious humanitarian, and because your solution is no solution at all, just an irrational, and terrible, emotional response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
and why do you really think that it is ok for a convicted child molester to have free reign in society?
I don't know a solution might be, shooting them, tagging them like animals is not one I'm willing to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
to be allowed to walk through playgrounds and parks without being watched or registered so that they can harm more innocent lives?
You're afflicted with a misconception instilled into you by an exploitative media.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 17:48   #50
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Re: CGI Kiddie Porn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
to be allowed to walk through playgrounds and parks without being watched or registered so that they can harm more innocent lives?
because we shouldn't punish people before they committ crimes.
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