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Unread 21 Feb 2007, 21:58   #1
Hebdomad
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Hate something, change something?

As far as I'm concerned, people who advance civilisation fit neatly into two categories: those people who are curious and create and those people who hate and create.

I don't see hate as a bad thing. Actions that result from that hatred are often detrimental to civilisation. But not always: you can hate a bad thing and push towards better times. And if the hatred, and resultant change, benefits you then the hatred was a good thing.



When I'm sad I'm also also angry, not specifically at someone or something, but angry my life is the way it is. But when I'm angry I've pin-pointed my woe. So why search for happiness and recoil from sadness when sadness, and the anger that comes with it, could propel you beyond sadness and towards happiness? Hate something, change something.

Do you see your hatred as a good thing, something that helps you focus your life? Has it improved your life? Or are you enable to do anything about it?

Last edited by Hebdomad; 21 Feb 2007 at 22:07.
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Unread 21 Feb 2007, 23:26   #2
Dante Hicks
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Re: Hate something, change something?

I'm not sure I could ever be creative or productive if I was hate-filled for more than a brief period of time. Hate (or intense dislike) certainly sparks things off (e.g. I have a very strong dislike of people having to work hard unnecessarily, so I spend a lot of my time trying to make certain tasks easier) but once I've begun a creative / productive process I'd be much more focused on the positive developments (e.g. the potential elegance of a particular solution). Without wishing to sound like a Jedi-Hippy too much hate disrupts thought processes which could better us all.

I have thought for a long time that one of the larger problems present in the left (or the opponents of power of whatever ideology) is their excessive focus on negative politics. Some socialist literature is entirely filled with scorn against capitalism and fails to contain one positive development by leftists (either existing or proposed).

Of course, I say this as somebody who has not advanced civilisation one jot and almost certainly never will.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 01:48   #3
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Re: Hate something, change something?

I'm pretty sure a lot of good things get done by determination. The successful are often the driven, the disciplined, the strong-willed. I'm not so certain success or progress are the greatest things we can acheive though. I'm sure some 'advancements' have been motivated by hate, but I think of hatred as a fairly insular, static thing to be honest. A seething hatred has a tendency to do nothing but stultify.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 04:49   #4
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Re: Hate something, change something?

Without hatred we wouldn't have things like Remote Controls, and TV-Dinners...from those people so lazy they hate having to expel energy into a task.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 13:03   #5
Hebdomad
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Re: Hate something, change something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
...but once I've begun a creative / productive process I'd be much more focused on the positive developments (e.g. the potential elegance of a particular solution).
yeah my point was hate is a good motivator though - propels a need for advancement - regardless of what your demeanour once you start the creative process.

of course, it depends on what you do with that hate - whether it's benevolent or malevolent action. but i don't link hate to malevolence. i don't want to be around people who base their lives around the lives of celebrities but it doesn't mean i actually want to do those people harm. i merely wish to live in a different social environment to them.

thinking about it some more, i suppose there are those who genuinely love life and want to improve it even more. but love is just the motivator, and hate is as valid as love in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
when u r rly, rly sad, u don't hate. u stagnate.
but aren't you angry about the stagnation?
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 14:52   #6
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Re: Hate something, change something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
i don't want to be around people who base their lives around the lives of celebrities but it doesn't mean i actually want to do those people harm. i merely wish to live in a different social environment to them.
I wrote a rambling blog about this recently, but hating people is giving them unnecessary attention and therefore undeserved proportion of your mental activity. If someone isn't very good it is probably best to ignore them and never give them another thought. Obviously if there is some practical benefit to stabbing them repeatedly (i.e. they're the next Hitler) then hate is probably pretty useful.

You're definitely right about hate being a good initial motivator (rage too). 90% of my projects I start at work are inspired from hearing something utterly stupid from one of my colleagues which infuriates me momentarily.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 15:37   #7
Hebdomad
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Re: Hate something, change something?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I wrote a rambling blog about this recently, but hating people is giving them unnecessary attention and therefore undeserved proportion of your mental activity. If someone isn't very good it is probably best to ignore them and never give them another thought.
I agree. But I find it hard to ignore something that's annoying me for some unknown reason. I need to distance myself from it; basically contrive an environment where the annoyance is completely absent.

I think it comes down to sensitivity.

I known people who can to happily ignore the things they don't like and embrace the things they do. This is a good way of living, but it relies on an ability to detach oneself from the bad bits of one's environment. Most significantly, it means the status quo remains.

But if you hate the things in your environment you'll be motivated to change those things. And as long as your conduct your activities in a benevolent way, I see no harm in hate - it may even advance social conditions.

This thread, in retrospect, is basically a defence of hatred for benevolent ends.







There's a whole other subject about whether one can change social conditions in a benevolent manner. A trivial example would be this forum. You can give someone negative reputation if they post something you don't like, and hope they either stop posting or stop posting the kind of material of which you do not approve. So you're trying to improve the forum.

But why do it at all? Why not just close the browser window and never give the post another thought?

In addition, you're worsening the forum for those users you gave negative reputation. Phalon's departure after he received negative reputation for his Italian football thread is an example.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 16:43   #8
Dante Hicks
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Re: Hate something, change something?

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Originally Posted by Hebdomad
But why do it at all? Why not just close the browser window and never give the post another thought?
I've touched on this topic before (here and here) but essentially because in a social setting like this one you can't always easily ignore someone without leaving that setting. (So you're basically right).

For instance, if we cast our minds back to when Sunday8pm was on these forums. It would be very easy to ignore his posts directly, but then what about the people who reply to him? Sure, I could ignore their posts too, but then sometimes debate becomes difficult (if not impossible) to follow. You might have to end up ignoring every thread that he posted in, which eventually could result in having to leave the forum. I believe some people have taken that action and gone to PB for that sort of reason (I don't mean because of Sunday obviously).

But that seems a grossly disproportional response. Why should I leave a forum where I have enjoyed posting for 5+ years, and where I like a good 95% of the regulars? It's not like ignoring Heat magazine (which is 100% dross) it's more like ignoring all your friends because one of them started being a bit shit. You could do that, but it also seems reasonable to say to that person "Hey man, you're being shit, plz stop". Of course, more generally I wouldn't boter doing this, I would just avoid social situations when that person is involved. But a forum is a little different.

(Here I'm talking generally - not defending any particular rep I or anyone else gave to whomever and not talking about anyone in particular except where named.)
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 17:59   #9
Hebdomad
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Re: Hate something, change something?

(I assume you're referring to the ignore facility instead of disregarding the post you disliked.)

I'm unsure why anyone feels the need to give negative reputation or put someone on ignore when they can just forget about that post (and replies) and concentrate on the posts they do like. That way the forums (or whatever social setting) remains as diverse as possible.

Obviously, not everyone (including me as demonstrated) can simply ignore a wealth of bad posts. But to back to the original point of hatred for benevolent ends, I suppose, in this case, at least the disaffected have somewhere to emigrate to - PB - so the suggested malevolence of the reputation system is abated the availability of a new home.
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Unread 22 Feb 2007, 22:39   #10
Dante Hicks
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Re: Hate something, change something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I'm unsure why anyone feels the need to give negative reputation or put someone on ignore when they can just forget about that post (and replies) and concentrate on the posts they do like.
Because good discussions get's derailed and there is a cost (in terms of time/energy) of filtering out the wheat from the chaff. The main problem with email spam is not ignoring it (or deleting it) it's checking to make sure you're not deleting something important/interesting.

Also, you've probably noticed but bad feeling spills from one thread to another. If it didn't, there wouldn't be a problem. I'm certainly not interested in the posts in RP or most of the PA-related forums and the quality of posts there is not important to me because it very rarely affects "our" threads.

I don't want diversity, I want a forum with mainly good posts on it. If I wanted true diversity I'd use Usenet without a killfile. 50% of posts would be spam, 30% would be crap flooding and the rest a mixture of psychotic drivel, cross-posting and stupidity. (If you're ever bored, try reading uk.religion.islam or do a Google Groups search for Tom Moore).
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