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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 14:47   #1
Sharur
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influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

so I was having a discussion with a friend over lunch that started with him saying how mean I am towards others. But quickly ended with him giving as example my disrespect for other people's religious beliefs. So I started argumenting why I don't like religion etc and soon came to the point that religion has had an influence on my life that has made me make some choices I regret, eventhough I'm not religious myself or even from a religious family.

I was mostly raised by pretty conservative parents (yet not religious) and television. I think that television has had the most influence on my moral values, and this is where I think it went wrong.
Television has raised me with too high moral values that are frankly just stupid and spoil alot of fun. For example the constant repetitive ideal that you shouldn't have sex until you find somebody you really care about and would like to spend the rest of your life with, I was raised with this ideal because of television. And to be quite honest, what's the point of this?
Sex is just a way of entertainment and even can be looked upon as the same as having a squash-match, only with somebody of the opposite sex and much more fulfilling. I missed out on alot of fun because of this in my younger years, when I was still naïve and thought that's the way it should be.
When I see the same kind of moral values preached on television today I think "what kind of inane bullshit am I watching here?" (pretty much how you might be feeling by reading all this).

So I started thinking, and I came to the conclusion that it's the influence of religion on society and on television that has made those moral values. So I started thinking a bit more, what other moral believes do I have that originated from religion? How much more did religion manage to brainwash me without me actually accepting the religion?

Discuss, or don't discuss, doesn't matter much, I just had to get this off my chest and am wondering what else religion did to screw up my life in such a backwards way.

edit* just noticed I mistyped the topic should've been "influence of religion (.."

Last edited by Sharur; 5 Feb 2007 at 09:58.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 15:12   #2
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

I dislike the way religion has made people think it's morally wrong to be promiscuous or polygamous
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 15:53   #3
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I dislike the way religion has made people think it's morally wrong to be promiscuous or polygamous
I like that signature after that post of yours
-----------------------------------------------------

As to the topic:

Religion, in fact, is such an important and complex part of human history, and society in general, its REALLY hard to judge it, because its almost impossible to evaluate how it affected humankind over the period of thouthands of years... I cannot say there were no beneficial sways either (calendar ! we still live and measure our years as B.C (before christ for those who do not know, if any) and A.D. (Anno Domini. Invented by, i believe, Dionysius to count easters, afaik) And everywhere we look, there is influence of religion, good and bad, on our everyday life. Things like Marriage, Code of Laws, even days of week (we dont work Sundays for a reason, you know[yay religion !]) are CLOSELY tied to religion.
As much as we can never forget sacreligious violence it brought. As religion considered to be adamant and reluctant to be changed, any stray from religoin is persecuted with upmost violence. And when two religions collide, more likely then none, it brings war. From days of tribes following different primal gods, to nowadays september 11th.

Personally, i have deep faith in the fact that religion is just a bunch of bullshit feelgood stories. And my faith in that is stronger then any other religious man (or woman), as i have a simple advantage on my hand. Logic. Throughout THAT many years people had been searching for god and, hey, they STILL have not found a single one.

I realized too long ago that conversations about religion dont end up in nothing actually positive (aside from entertaining conversation). Someone usually end up hating you another downfall of religion (i guess coming back to unacceptance of different views) is that its not flexible enough to allow people form their OWN views on the topic, only dictated what and how to say it. And even that is understandable, as if religious people would be allowed to form their own oppinion on religion, they would end up loosing faith in it most likely due to absence of proof.


And btw: Lucky coincedences are not accepted as a proof of Divine Intervention... I am sickened by people of religion using misfortune of someone and their break and giving tribute for it to "God"


I am waiting for travler's reply hee tho... He will proove my point that no matter what u say to a man of religion, u cannot make him see logic behind anyone's words
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:07   #4
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

i think there is free will.
and out of free will, some people CHOOSE to believe in something above them.
it makes things a whole lot easier when you have someone other than yourself to thank or blame for the things in your life. other than that religion is a social concept as old as civilisation itself, which every individual has the right to accept or deny according to their personal beliefs.
this brings me back to the ideea of free will. and do religious people choose to give free will up in order to believe in something already established?
and if its free will that defines us as human beings, what defines them, after having given that up?
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:11   #5
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
we still live and measure our years as B.C (before christ for those who do not know, if any) and A.D. (Anno Domini. Invented by, i believe, Dionysius to count easters, afaik)
Luckely I was educated in school to use "vot" (voor onze tijdrekening, strictly translated as "before our timecalculation") and same for after our timecalculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
And everywhere we look, there is influence of religion, good and bad, on our everyday life. Things like Marriage, Code of Laws, even days of week (we dont work Sundays for a reason, you know[yay religion !]) are CLOSELY tied to religion.
Well that's kind of my point, how can we know if it's good or bad since we've been brainwashed into believe certain things are good and others are bad?
Altho I must add that marriage isn't purely religious, they just added a bunch of rules to it. And for the Code of Laws I refer to my previous point, how are we to know certain things are good or bad when we've just been brainwashed? Up until recently homosexuality was against the law aswell in america, that's because of religion aswell and it was in the Code of Laws, I'm wondering how many other things are in there like that?
Obviously murder and rape aren't under discussion here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
As much as we can never forget sacreligious violence it brought. As religion considered to be adamant and reluctant to be changed, any stray from religoin is persecuted with upmost violence. And when two religions collide, more likely then none, it brings war. From days of tribes following different primal gods, to nowadays september 11th.
Well I've noticed that the extremism in religion in my country is diminuishing (sp?), but when I think a bit further it's probably just because society has adapted the rules of religion into modern society which doesn't form the need of a real religion anymore, and I'm afraid that if we were to realise the mistakes in our moral values that religion will once again flourish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
Personally, i have deep faith in the fact that religion is just a bunch of bullshit feelgood stories. And my faith in that is stronger then any other religious man (or woman), as i have a simple advantage on my hand. Logic. Throughout THAT many years people had been searching for god and, hey, they STILL have not found a single one.
I'm not really frustrated into the fact that people belief, more into the fact that religion always forces people to "believe". Children are educated and raised with religious believes without every asking to be. I'm more against "the church/vatican/whoever is in power in those religions" than the whole concept of "religion" personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
I realized too long ago that conversations about religion dont end up in nothing actually positive (aside from entertaining conversation). Someone usually end up hating you another downfall of religion (i guess coming back to unacceptance of different views) is that its not flexible enough to allow people form their OWN views on the topic, only dictated what and how to say it. And even that is understandable, as if religious people would be allowed to form their own oppinion on religion, they would end up loosing faith in it most likely due to absence of proof.
Yeah I realised that too, that's why I'm more asking about what of our moral believes, rules and other stuff in today's society is there because of religion more than wether religion is bad or good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
i think there is free will.
and out of free will, some people CHOOSE to believe in something above them.
it makes things a whole lot easier when you have someone other than yourself to thank or blame for the things in your life. other than that religion is a social concept as old as civilisation itself, which every individual has the right to accept or deny according to their personal beliefs.
this brings me back to the ideea of free will. and do religious people choose to give free will up in order to believe in something already established?
and if its free will that defines us as human beings, what defines them, after having given that up?
That's one of my points aswell, sure there's free will, but it's free within boundaries. We have been raised with moral values that emprison our "free will" between lines which we can cross and lines we can't. Who's to tell those lines are correct when we've been raised with those?
Religion has a history of limiting the free will of people, and I'm afraid they still do but it's just so that they have won the fight and are now reaping the results of it. Free will is still limited, only we don't realise it as much.
When you say every individual has the right to accept or deny according to their personal beliefs, the personal beliefs part is vital. Children are raised religious, so their "personal believes" have been opressed (wrong wordchoise so I hope you know what I mean) on them since the start, they're brainwashed into thinking it are infact their personal believes but it's not at all the case.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:18   #6
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

From a western judeo-christian perspective an easy way of looking at it would be to consider the ten commandments. To a large extent the origin of any moral principles we have in our society today can be considered to arise from that set of imperatives.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:24   #7
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

well, then youre merely stating the fact that it does, rather then bringing up a point for conversation. Yes, ofcourse, most of our believes are affected by religion more then u can realize. Howeever, its not a bad thing really... U can say we were brainwashed, yet, most of things that religion says (while educating you on how to live your life) i actually agree with. Then again, were mostly refering to christian religion and neglecting others.

Principles of buddism and taoism and confusionism are quite likable and based on reason and logic (even if some admit some stuff that cant (and wount) be proovesn [coming back to entire "if there is a God" discussion]. The beautiful thing about those is that while upholding high moral values it does not persuade others into thinking and doing alike, not were they designed as a control tool (aside from confusianism).

If were gonna talk about the institution of Christian religion (both, Catholic and Orthodox churches) those were nothing but a mere powergroup. With powerhungry people trying to tell others how to live. There should have never been an institution of Faith. Coz, as vudu said <3, its all a personal choice.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:26   #8
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Argh.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:27   #9
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Religion and just plain sensitivity(reasonability) often overlap. Also with absolute craziness. ´Tis kinda hard to distinguish wheter things come from religion or not


the whole ' have no pleasures, and live a spartan life in order to be a good person' bullshit perhaps
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:29   #10
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
well, then youre merely stating the fact that it does, rather then bringing up a point for conversation. Yes, ofcourse, most of our believes are affected by religion more then u can realize. Howeever, its not a bad thing really... U can say we were brainwashed, yet, most of things that religion says (while educating you on how to live your life) i actually agree with. Then again, were mostly refering to christian religion and neglecting others.

Principles of buddism and taoism and confusionism are quite likable and based on reason and logic (even if some admit some stuff that cant (and wount) be proovesn [coming back to entire "if there is a God" discussion]. The beautiful thing about those is that while upholding high moral values it does not persuade others into thinking and doing alike, not were they designed as a control tool (aside from confusianism).

If were gonna talk about the institution of Christian religion (both, Catholic and Orthodox churches) those were nothing but a mere powergroup. With powerhungry people trying to tell others how to live. There should have never been an institution of Faith. Coz, as vudu said <3, its all a personal choice.
well the discussion would be to discuss those moral values, are they really good? or are we just brought up to see them as good?
like the example I made in the first post, sex before marriage.. or modernly translated into "casual sex is bad mkay?"
your point about other religions opens up a good discussion aswell, the fact that christianity is used to control people, and there's other religions out there that aren't.
the fact that it is, or isn't, a personal choice is to be discussed aswell (cfr. how much importance holds a personal choice when you've been "brainwashed")

so it's not at all a statement and indeed is more a discussion, imo
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:32   #11
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
From a western judeo-christian perspective an easy way of looking at it would be to consider the ten commandments. To a large extent the origin of any moral principles we have in our society today can be considered to arise from that set of imperatives.
how about this logical sequence(timeframe) then:

  1. people settle down and build houses and farms
  2. people fight over land, and kill each other non stop
  3. people realise that fighting will never end so they agree to create a chiefdom to settle disputes
  4. the chief, whose only occupation is to attend to inter personal problems, creates a set of moral rules and principles that cannot be broken
  5. the chief deaclares itself the son of god and there you have a religion
  6. teehee!
As in Guns, steel and germs - jared diamond
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:33   #12
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

just to post somehthing dumb, i just realised it:

why are eastern people (starting from India, eastwards) seem smarter race, making smarter choices... even their religion seems to make more sence, if any is possible...
not attempting to highjack a thread or make even more points to discuss... we got too many as is just a stupid post, as described in Ste's siggy ^.^
/me is waiting to be conquered by China.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:33   #13
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
how about this logical sequence(timeframe) then:

  1. people settle down and build houses and farms
  2. people fight over land, and kill each other non stop
  3. people realise that fighting will never end so they agree to create a chiefdom to settle disputes
  4. the chief, whose only occupation is to attend to inter personal problems, creates a set of moral rules and principles that cannot be broken
  5. the chief deaclares itself the son of god and there you have a religion
  6. teehee!
As in Guns, steel and germs - jared diamond

That had nothing to do with my post at all but thanks for the contribution.


Have you read collapse? His take on easter island is very interesting.


Not to mention most religions didn't actually arise like that and although it's been a while since I read guns, germs and steel I'd find it hard to believe Jared Diamond made a mistake that silly.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:36   #14
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
how about this logical sequence(timeframe) then:

  1. people settle down and build houses and farms
  2. people fight over land, and kill each other non stop
  3. people realise that fighting will never end so they agree to create a chiefdom to settle disputes
  4. the chief, whose only occupation is to attend to inter personal problems, creates a set of moral rules and principles that cannot be broken
  5. the chief deaclares itself the son of god and there you have a religion
  6. teehee!
As in Guns, steel and germs - jared diamond

well, that, and things that people could never explain...

Girl: "oo... look... lightnign, i wonder where it comes from.."
Dude (know-it-all kind, we still have those, its stupid to assume then werent there before): "From the lightning God, ofcourse, silly. Now go skin that boar and make me some pants and a dinner "


tru story.

aside from the "" part :/
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:43   #15
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

discussing how religion came into existance is rather silly. its ok for the sake of the argument, but the chances of getting to a conclusion are slim to say the least.
then again, any religion-oriented debate will most likely end in a "cease-fire" because every individual has his personal oppinions and when there is no rock-steady fact to counteract that.
but it's good because with such a topic, everybody can chip in and contribute. you dont have to be a rocket scientist to believe (or not believe) in something and then bring arguments.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:46   #16
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That had nothing to do with my post at all but thanks for the contribution.


Have you read collapse? His take on easter island is very interesting.


Not to mention most religions didn't actually arise like that and although it's been a while since I read guns, germs and steel I'd find it hard to believe Jared Diamond made a mistake that silly.
I have
"there is still chunks of your mother between my theet" (or something like that) was very gory


But i have recently read the guns, germs and steel and he adopted the Rousseaunian/hobbesian point of view on the creation of the chiefdom/state, which preceded religion, due to its even more abstract demands...
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:47   #17
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
I have
"there is still chunks of your mother between my theet" (or something like that) was very gory


But i have recently read the guns, germs and steel and he adopted the Rousseaunian/hobbesian point of view on the creation of the chiefdom/state, which preceded religion, due to its even more abstract demands...
I meant the last bit, most religions didn't involve the chief declaring himself the son of god.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:55   #18
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I meant the last bit, most religions didn't involve the chief declaring himself the son of god.
Oh right.. of course.. that was my unfunny gig

as a final question, do you believe the world is in a road to colapse? He convinced me
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 16:59   #19
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Oh right.. of course.. that was my unfunny gig

as a final question, do you believe the world is in a road to colapse? He convinced me
I'm much more concerned about heat death personally. Obviously our current economic model isn't the epitome of stability but realistically no, I don't think human civilisation is going to collapse within a hundred years or something like that.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 17:32   #20
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm much more concerned about [=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe]heat death[/url] personally. Obviously our current economic model isn't the epitome of stability but realistically no, I don't think human civilisation is going to collapse within a hundred years or something like that.
even if not socially, i think economically its very possible. If we add up everything that is wrong with our planet, starting from diminishing supply of oil ( we are alerady warring for remainders of it, it will just escalate with supply disappearing. England will soon run out of oil in the north sea, russia is practically out of oil (that is stored in Ukraine) and i know nothing about situation in Africa and their oil reserves. In US, texas is the only real spot to dig for oil, and there is yet to be determined amount of it there, as they dont REALLY drain all of it, and that what they do is going to national reserve of oil (wich just doubled since our muppet's anouncement in 2007) Then there is Alaska, and devil will break his leg there (old russian expression for a big big mess) trying to figgure out what is going on there. Last i heard, their oil pipes were leaking more oil then delivering. :/ go figgure.

Aside from oil shortage there are, now obvious, signs of global warming. sept 15th-ish there was a 57 degree temperature in New York. MIDDLE OF GODDEAM WINTER ! and we just now got our first snow in drips and drabs...

Anyone wants to speculate on short and long term effects of global warming ? Starvation, financial devastation, new deadly deceases, escalation of skin cancer and related deaths by hundreds of percent.

I just sure as hell hope Japan will come out with something that would save us all. After all, they live, quite literally, in tomorow... so the technologies of tomorow that would save the world are going to appear there, logically.

Whist US will **** it up even more but at least its one of our government's priorities now. Before 2007 last i head is our muppet declined some convention's offer to reduce emissions worldwide because it would make too deep of an impact on US economy. BRILLIANT ****ing move considering with dead planet US will, naturaly, prosper...
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 17:41   #21
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
any chance you guys (sharur and mighteh) could summarise your points of discussion into bullet points?

edit: in relation to the religion posts. not the peak oil apocalypse crap
to be short, no.

there would be a huge list of points. Its hard to really summarize on something that is so huge and influencial as religion's influence on humankind. I guess that, and only that would be the bullet point. (i know youre just to lazy to read through it all <3)



and speaking of appocalypses, anyone have seen discovery channel special about yellowstone's supereruption ? scared the SHIT out of me, and i am on the east coast...
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 17:47   #22
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
nothing is "good" or "bad". objective moral values don't exist. you can choose to believe whatever you want! /o\
I disagree, i think there is aglobal understanding that some things are bad, some are good. Like babies are good, killing babies is bad, mmkay ?

Quote:
maybe not but it's based on similar ideas/beliefs that religions tend to be based on. i.e. essentialism and the supernatural
yet again i disagree with you. some religions were based on teachings of great philosophers of time. Such as Confucionism, Maoism (whatever rocks the boat for some, cannot call Mao a "stupid man" either), and soon to come Mighteism.

Quote:
why not? :/
read top, pretty much. Some things are generally bad. both, in religion, and in constitution, and in general life and human standpoint aswell. Example above.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:14   #23
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
even if not socially, i think economically its very possible. If we add up everything that is wrong with our planet, starting from diminishing supply of oil ( we are alerady warring for remainders of it, it will just escalate with supply disappearing. England will soon run out of oil in the north sea, russia is practically out of oil (that is stored in Ukraine) and i know nothing about situation in Africa and their oil reserves. In US, texas is the only real spot to dig for oil, and there is yet to be determined amount of it there, as they dont REALLY drain all of it, and that what they do is going to national reserve of oil (wich just doubled since our muppet's anouncement in 2007) Then there is Alaska, and devil will break his leg there (old russian expression for a big big mess) trying to figgure out what is going on there. Last i heard, their oil pipes were leaking more oil then delivering. :/ go figgure.

Aside from oil shortage there are, now obvious, signs of global warming. sept 15th-ish there was a 57 degree temperature in New York. MIDDLE OF GODDEAM WINTER ! and we just now got our first snow in drips and drabs...

Anyone wants to speculate on short and long term effects of global warming ? Starvation, financial devastation, new deadly deceases, escalation of skin cancer and related deaths by hundreds of percent.

I just sure as hell hope Japan will come out with something that would save us all. After all, they live, quite literally, in tomorow... so the technologies of tomorow that would save the world are going to appear there, logically.

Whist US will **** it up even more but at least its one of our government's priorities now. Before 2007 last i head is our muppet declined some convention's offer to reduce emissions worldwide because it would make too deep of an impact on US economy. BRILLIANT ****ing move considering with dead planet US will, naturaly, prosper...
Yeah well **** you


Oh yeah, my point was largely that I think there's a sufficient level of awareness for future events not to destroy the fabric of society, ie not society as it is now but society as it is then.


Edit: If you're going to claim objective moral values exist you're going to have be an extremist, sorry
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:22   #24
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah well **** you


Oh yeah, my point was largely that I think there's a sufficient level of awareness for future events not to destroy the fabric of society, ie not society as it is now but society as it is then.


Edit: If you're going to claim objective moral values exist you're going to have be an extremist, sorry

hahah... OMG pearl of wisdom Made me smile, JBG

and phraze "f you're going to claim objective moral values exist you're going to have be an extremist, sorry " is too complex for my level of english :/
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:29   #25
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Morality, in the way it has become conventionally understood, is, in essence, a human construct.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:32   #26
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

yes, ofcourse, its all coming down to our understanding of subjectivity and objectivity.

For me, morality that is accepted subjectively by human race is quite objective. Otherwise not only u have to deny objectivism to morality, but to pretty much everything meta-human, except laws of science and math.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:34   #27
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
yes, ofcourse, its all coming down to our understanding of subjectivity and objectivity.

For me, morality that is accepted subjectively by human race is quite objective. Otherwise not only u have to deny objectivism to morality, but to pretty much everything meta-human, except laws of science and math.
The human race isn't a single entity.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:44   #28
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

but if we are to look at it as a single community, there are moral values that are generally accepted. Its silly to state that they are subjective. NOW, i am not saying that MOST moral values are subjective, only that there are those that are accepted by majority of population (usually they are geared towards survival of species, such as taboo on murder and rape namely) I am also not considering extremist religious groups. Just going as far as commonly accepted community groups. Those form the general objective guidelines for morals. "Majority" of human race, even, rather then a single entity
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:53   #29
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

and regarding millenialism, I am unsure that i would like to put my trust into social progress to the point that it will benefit the planet rather then destroying it. Humans are consumers. we do not create anything that would benefit anyhting outside of human race, only consume and give nothing back in return.

So if what is proposed assumes a complete turn around and "mental awakening" of us, as species, and realizing that we REALLY REALLY ****ed up, just like in those pessimistic sci-fi books by Ray Bradbury (not sure of spelling of his name, only read russian translations) i would rather NOT take my chance and try and go to college, eventually, to try and do something about it myself. I know, unrealistic, but sure as hell better point of view and aspirations then just sitting and watching everythign going to utter shit while people who have power to change it do nothing, or say its not withing their power, or benefit, to do so...

Or at least try to awake that idea in minds of whoever i can reach through only thing i can do, talk via internet. After all, all you, and me, are the future. And what it hold we are responcible for. Fixing mistakes of people who are long dead would be ourresponcibility.

quit thinking your parents will fix everything and it will all be just dandy :/

I do find alot of hypocricy in my view, however its how it is. I am pretty set on my views, no matter how hypocritic they are. And i hold them true (as much as u can hold hyporicy true) to my own moral standards, wich are quite subjective after all =)
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:57   #30
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

I'm sure there's a society where the ritual in which you enter into manhood is murder and one where you carry off your wife from a neighbouring tribe and rape her first.

If there isn't maybe me and T&F can found one and rape your sister.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 19:08   #31
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

deam dude... thats getting into the paradox of existant reality...
I simply dont have the brain power to solve paradoxial shit
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 00:55   #32
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
well the discussion would be to discuss those moral values, are they really good? or are we just brought up to see them as good?
like the example I made in the first post, sex before marriage.. or modernly translated into "casual sex is bad mkay?"
Don't you think that thousands of years ago this advice might actually have been worthwhile?
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 02:01   #33
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Morality, in the way it has become conventionally understood, is, in essence, a human construct.
Does objective fact exist at all, then? I mean, what's the point in going on about 'constructs'? Of course, everything is a human construct; language, science, philosophy, politics, art. Just be reasonable, for god's sake. Be sensible. Or at least have some sort of point.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 08:45   #34
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

All your moaning about forced morals and repression of thought. Give me a break. The biggest blight religion has unleashed upon the world is economics.

I mean where else would people take their hard earned money if they did not have religion? They would use the money to buy something usefull or at the least entertaining like booze. But religion steps in and says don't buy that booze, give the money to us. Don't use that money to buy a house the church needs your cash.

Take away the money aspect and the rest is just fun. I mean did you ever see anyone complaining about a crazy hermit liviing in the woods and blaming him for morality? No of course not. Don't blame religion for morals well bought and paid for by the people. Blame the fools throwing their money at God and thinking it's what the Lord needs.

If want some more of my thoughts read this:
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-ctGlP...Hw--?cq=1&p=96

And try not to think about the eaten puppy.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 09:08   #35
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
So I started thinking, and I came to the conclusion that it's the influence of religion on society and on television that has made those moral values. So I started thinking a bit more, what other moral believes do I have that originated from religion? How much more did religion manage to brainwash me without me actually accepting the religion?

I'm unsure what you're trying to say, but perhaps you should watch less television?



Incidently although i disagree with their various casual explanations for, well existence, anyone who seriously blames 'religion' for all of todays problems or thinks the world would be better if we banned/eradicated religion really scares the shit out of me.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 09:57   #36
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Does objective fact exist at all, then? I mean, what's the point in going on about 'constructs'? Of course, everything is a human construct; language, science, philosophy, politics, art. Just be reasonable, for god's sake. Be sensible. Or at least have some sort of point.
Don't be stupid. Language and science aim to describe reality. Their success can be measured through the miracles of empiricism. Morality has to be a construct otherwise it's meaningless. Much like if there really was a point to beauty it wouldn't be beauty at all.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 11:21   #37
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

I must admit there's some parts of this discussion that go well above my intelligence to discuss this at work. I'd need alot of time to pounder it sitting in a dark room to answer some things. But I'll try to comment on a few other stuff. This doesn't mean I don't appreciate the comments I do not respond to, but they're just a bit too hard for me to comment on at this moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Morality, in the way it has become conventionally understood, is, in essence, a human construct.
Yes, this is my point. It has been constructed with as greatest influence religion. Religion has always influenced history to a great extent in the past. And everybody just accepted them for being good, as that's what people do in most religions. Accept things that can't be/aren't explained for being correct (free will?). I would like to think that there's one rule in religion that kind of guides all other rules. "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to yourself". And I still think this rule applies, but what if it didn't? The whole moral construct would come tumbling down, wouldn't it?
This is probably a very hypothetical case, as I doubt anybody can argue against this rule.
Silly question, but I kind of wonder what would happen if the whole moral construct would break down.
Altho I must comment on the "silly question" part that it's not because it appears silly at the moment, that it will not happen in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Don't you think that thousands of years ago this advice might actually have been worthwhile?
Yeah, obviously. But not alot of people were around then to dispute it, and those that did got stoned to death. But it's not because this is how it is now, that it cannot be changed tho. Sure, discussing it on this forum here won't change the world or anything, but I'm mainly doing this to learn more about myself. I think most people are just looking for self-knowledge, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
All your moaning about forced morals and repression of thought. Give me a break. The biggest blight religion has unleashed upon the world is economics.
I doubt that, pagan tribes in history have been very skilled in economics aswell. The romans (altho they did worship gods) did more for this world than christianity has ever done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I mean where else would people take their hard earned money if they did not have religion? They would use the money to buy something usefull or at the least entertaining like booze. But religion steps in and says don't buy that booze, give the money to us. Don't use that money to buy a house the church needs your cash.
I'm not sure, are you preaching against the church now? Cause it sure sounds like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Take away the money aspect and the rest is just fun. I mean did you ever see anyone complaining about a crazy hermit liviing in the woods and blaming him for morality? No of course not. Don't blame religion for morals well bought and paid for by the people. Blame the fools throwing their money at God and thinking it's what the Lord needs.
It's not the fools' fault they do that. They're fools because they listen to their priest and the church (not the music band). It's the church that tells people to donate, and they obide(sp?) as the meak (sp?) sheep they are.
Religion has made people into meak (sp?) sheep.
Not sure why we should blame a crazy hermit living in the woods for morality tho? Please elaborate. He's not doing anything wrong, and a there's a big chance that something happened in "the real world" that made him crazy and made him want to live in the woods.

Also, what's fun about being confined to a set of rules that you have to accept without doubting them? What's fun about dogmas? What's fun about being brainwashed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I'm unsure what you're trying to say, but perhaps you should watch less television?
Where were you 15 years ago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Incidently although i disagree with their various casual explanations for, well existence, anyone who seriously blames 'religion' for all of todays problems or thinks the world would be better if we banned/eradicated religion really scares the shit out of me.
How's that? I'm not saying kill off everybody that believes, I'm just saying they should stop brainwashing their children, and let them make the decision when they're at an age that can think for theirselves without being manipulated their whole life.
If this causes the eradication of religion then it's for the best, cause that would mean religion isn't needed and is just a burden.
If that doesn't cause the eradication of religion, then so be it, atleast people won't be forced into believes they don't really want and will accomplish true free will.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 11:36   #38
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Yes, this is my point. It has been constructed with as greatest influence religion. Religion has always influenced history to a great extent in the past. And everybody just accepted them for being good, as that's what people do in most religions. Accept things that can't be/aren't explained for being correct (free will?). I would like to think that there's one rule in religion that kind of guides all other rules. "Don't do to others what you don't want to be done to yourself". And I still think this rule applies, but what if it didn't? The whole moral construct would come tumbling down, wouldn't it?
I entirely disagree that that's the one rule in religion, or even that there is a rule across all religions. Given the intolerance demonstrated and fighting which has occurred it really doesn't make sense to claim that's the single rule for religion (unless you want to say all religions propose that rule but largely then it becomes evident that "do unto others..." precedes religion.

Quote:
Silly question, but I kind of wonder what would happen if the whole moral construct would break down.
Altho I must comment on the "silly question" part that it's not because it appears silly at the moment, that it will not happen in the future.
Morality doesn't just break down. It's not "working" in the first place so to speak of it breaking down is nonsense. What you could say is that someone has a moral nature well outside the normal human plane. If you want ideas for what would happen then I'd advise looking at historical figures who have had a very different moral sense to their contemporaries.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 11:43   #39
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I entirely disagree that that's the one rule in religion, or even that there is a rule across all religions. Given the intolerance demonstrated and fighting which has occurred it really doesn't make sense to claim that's the single rule for religion (unless you want to say all religions propose that rule but largely then it becomes evident that "do unto others..." precedes religion.
Well atleast they preach it, doesn't mean they aren't hypocrites that say "Except when you have another religion, then it doesn't count!" though.
I would like to think that this rule isn't based on religion, but religion just thought it to be "hey that's a nice thing to preach, I think we could get alot of followers if we add that to our guideline book!" But I'm not sure if this can be proven at all. Still would be pretty cool though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Morality doesn't just break down. It's not "working" in the first place so to speak of it breaking down is nonsense. What you could say is that someone has a moral nature well outside the normal human plane. If you want ideas for what would happen then I'd advise looking at historical figures who have had a very different moral sense to their contemporaries.
Yeah I kind of meant, if the "general population" would reject the current moral values and society wouldn't use them anymore in their laws rather than a single person, what would be the consequences. It's kind of a silly point though, I didn't really mean to elaborate this much into it.
When looking at history and you look at those historical figures, they're often projected as insane or monsters and even got killed by the establishment, so I'm not too sure how correct the picture I'd get of those figures would be.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 13:39   #40
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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Originally Posted by Sharur
Well atleast they preach it, doesn't mean they aren't hypocrites that say "Except when you have another religion, then it doesn't count!" though.
I would like to think that this rule isn't based on religion, but religion just thought it to be "hey that's a nice thing to preach, I think we could get alot of followers if we add that to our guideline book!" But I'm not sure if this can be proven at all. Still would be pretty cool though.
If religions frequently preach it but don't actually follow it that probably says more about human nature than religions specifically.


Quote:
Yeah I kind of meant, if the "general population" would reject the current moral values and society wouldn't use them anymore in their laws rather than a single person, what would be the consequences. It's kind of a silly point though, I didn't really mean to elaborate this much into it.
When looking at history and you look at those historical figures, they're often projected as insane or monsters and even got killed by the establishment, so I'm not too sure how correct the picture I'd get of those figures would be.
Revolution dude. Suffering, chaos, mayhem, anarchy in the UK!
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 14:42   #41
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Don't be stupid. Language and science aim to describe reality. Their success can be measured through the miracles of empiricism. Morality has to be a construct otherwise it's meaningless. Much like if there really was a point to beauty it wouldn't be beauty at all.
Rubbish. The idea that empiricism is a desirable thing is one of the great prevailing human constructs of our time, much as is the idea that beauty should have no point.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 14:48   #42
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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Originally Posted by Boogster
Rubbish. The idea that empiricism is a desirable thing is one of the great prevailing human constructs of our time, much as is the idea that beauty should have no point.
I don't think you understand. Empircism involves actually "exploring" the world. Concepts of say, beauty or morality, involve an introspective self-referential approach and as such don't provide propositions which are refutable. They can have mutually exclusive propositions (due to the requirements of logic) but they can't actually describe the human mind in any meaningful sense other than the broadest "a person can have idea x". Empirically the statement is much more "something in the world is x". These are obvious differences between potentiality and reality.


After all if beauty had a point it wouldn't be beauty, it'd merely be an element of rationality because it would be a good idea to hold to its ideals for reasons outside of itself. If you wish to call beauty this you're certainly free to, but then we're talking about different things.
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 18:35   #43
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Can language really be said to describe independant reality though? Its probably worth waiting for the ginger one who keeps harping on about the emo austrian, but wasn't the point of philosphical investigations to reject language atomism? My reality is my own regardless of how i try to describe it to you, we may try to communicate through a language based on an pure logic that we percieve to be independantly external (ie maths) but im actually skeptical that it is (i admit i haven't thought this bit through yet)

Nod are there any specific works on philosophy of maths that Wittgenstein or anyone else did that you'd recommend?
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Unread 2 Feb 2007, 18:45   #44
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Ok let me put it this way, my idea of beauty is my own; yours is your own. I may try to use empricism to explain my beauty, ie a nose of length a, breasts of volume x but that merely tries to convey the message to somone else, it doesn't mean beauty is. I realise everyone considers it borderline lunacy but im linking this to 'the universe' because i've always been struck by the 'multiple levels' that 'sciency stuff' can be described on. The wave-particle duality is one example of two different groups of people trying to describe the same thing with the same language but coming to different 'answers'.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 13:21   #45
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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Originally Posted by milo
Can language really be said to describe independant reality though? Its probably worth waiting for the ginger one who keeps harping on about the emo austrian, but wasn't the point of philosphical investigations to reject language atomism? My reality is my own regardless of how i try to describe it to you, we may try to communicate through a language based on an pure logic that we percieve to be independantly external (ie maths) but im actually skeptical that it is (i admit i haven't thought this bit through yet)

Nod are there any specific works on philosophy of maths that Wittgenstein or anyone else did that you'd recommend?
I believe I used the words "aim to". I'm not quite sure what your point about maths is though, can you elaborate?
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 02:05   #46
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I'm not sure, are you preaching against the church now? Cause it sure sounds like it.
I am not preaching against the church but I do get rather disgusted when church people think that the amount they give signifies their faith. I also get upset that the church leaders are actually trying to get people not to pay their bills and give to the church instead. My blog post was about highlighting scripture regarding paying your debts and how I felt about tithing. Tithing is a good thing and should be done if 10% of your income lost is not going to hurt you or your family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
It's not the fools' fault they do that. They're fools because they listen to their priest and the church (not the music band). It's the church that tells people to donate, and they obide(sp?) as the meak (sp?) sheep they are.
Religion has made people into meak (sp?) sheep.
Not sure why we should blame a crazy hermit living in the woods for morality tho? Please elaborate. He's not doing anything wrong, and a there's a big chance that something happened in "the real world" that made him crazy and made him want to live in the woods.?
People convicted with the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues and writhe on the floor. Not much different than some crazy hermit in the woods talking to himself and having fits. Take the money away and it's just fun.
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Originally Posted by Sharur
Also, what's fun about being confined to a set of rules that you have to accept without doubting them? What's fun about dogmas? What's fun about being brainwashed?
I don't feel brainwashed. I believe because of my personal experiences. Brainwashed mean that you are forced to accept something you normally would not. If you are at a fundraiser for a politician and he asks you for money and you give him money because you want to see him elected are you brainwashed? No you accepted the situation and it was not forced upon you.

Same for me. I accepted the situation and nothing was forced upon me other that what I held myself to. I had some criteria that had to be met before I would become a believer. Only myself and God knew these requirements. When God proved himself to me I believed. The only brainwashing was by me to me to accept what I had litterly asked for.

It's like the expression "You've made your bed now sleep in it."
I made a deal and God came through. So to be right in my head I had to honor my part of the deal. Nobody else knew the deal so they could not influence me. When people ask for proof of God they always ask other people. If you really want proof of God's existance ask for something specific and if you make a deal be prepared to live up to your end of the bargain.

Here is an example:

I will believe that there really is a God if ...................

It should be something only you know about.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 03:58   #47
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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I had some criteria that had to be met before I would become a believer. Only myself and God knew these requirements. When God proved himself to me I believed.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 20:59   #48
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

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Originally Posted by Sharur
Yeah, obviously. But not alot of people were around then to dispute it, and those that did got stoned to death. But it's not because this is how it is now, that it cannot be changed tho. Sure, discussing it on this forum here won't change the world or anything, but I'm mainly doing this to learn more about myself. I think most people are just looking for self-knowledge, no?
I was referring to the transmission of sexually transmitted infections and pregnancy.When people didn't have condoms (or even empty crisp packets) then this advice was probably pretty wise. As with a lot of rules it kind of becomes redundant with time and technological advancement.
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Unread 4 Feb 2007, 22:59   #49
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Same for me. I accepted the situation and nothing was forced upon me other that what I held myself to. I had some criteria that had to be met before I would become a believer. Only myself and God knew these requirements. When God proved himself to me I believed.
That isn't faith, though; that's a rational standpoint with irrational requirements.
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Unread 5 Feb 2007, 09:02   #50
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Re: influence on religion (past and present) on today's non-religious society

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
From a western judeo-christian perspective an easy way of looking at it would be to consider the ten commandments. To a large extent the origin of any moral principles we have in our society today can be considered to arise from that set of imperatives.
I think that Christianity still plays a very significant role in constituting our general worldview (even among atheists) but I'd disagree that the 10 commandments is one of the ways it manifests itself. Many of the commandments are ignored ('dont worship false gods'/'dont covet neighbours wife' etc), and the ones that still form a central part of the legal system ('dont murder/steal') are generally just those that are necessary for a stable society and would be expected to be present in most cultures. There's nothing intrinsically Judeo-Christian about not murdering people, and youll find similar doctrines in most places regardless of their religious context.

I'd say that the major Christian doctrines which still hold sway over most people include things like measuring the worth of a person by how nice they are to others (contrast this with the Greek view), a sense of duty towards those who exist in worse circumstances, a general guilt-based culture, the doctrine of a soul or immutable personality ('my true self'), a certain way of thinking about free will, and so on.

Last edited by Nodrog; 5 Feb 2007 at 09:16.
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