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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 02:28   #51
Boogster
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Yeah,


but you think hell is real.
No I don't. Then again, you never asked, which is pretty much how things go around here.

PS. Well, I'm fairly sceptical, anyhow. I can't say I'm wholly free of the whole pathological guilt thing, but it only tends to surface occasionally.
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 02:34   #52
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
No I don't. Then again, you never asked, which is pretty much how things go around here.
Actually the way things go around here is as follows:

'People have a perfectly valid development of ideas on a topic which involves religion. You chip in; slyly trying to imply that to point out the flaws in doctrine equates to being 'anti-religious'. I pick you up on the logical falsehood of your argument. You type a few generic 'goodwill' comments then run away.'

I just wish you wouldn't get involved.

You never debate. You never actually respond. Then after a while you you post 'let's all be nice to each other' and go away.

I get bored easily.

Hence
Quote:
Originally Posted by yahwe
I just wish you wouldn't get involved.
You are as a moth to a flame
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 02:38   #53
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
JBG: Nothing at all. You fellows are pretty great.

Needless to say, I bet you've shouted about your local football team at some point, and you don't even believe that they've saved you from sin, condemnation and quite possibly damnation.
the presence of his local football team is accepted as likely by the people he raves about them to.
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 02:43   #54
Boogster
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

But that's not how it goes at all:

1. Travler posts.

2. Everyone flames.

3. I insist that Christians aren't horrible and stupid and try and point out where people are just being plain old silly;

4. You disagree;

5. I disagree;

6. You flame;

7. I get pissed off with your stupidness and leave for another couple of months.

8. You flame again, probably throwing in some casual reference to Oxford;

9. You neg-rep me.

10. I can't resist calling you stupid. Then I go to bed.


4-10 are generally repeated ad infinitum.
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 02:44   #55
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Why did you need to pray? I mean, if its God, surely he knew what was in your mind and decided to do it or not do it based on its own merits. Where does 'prayer' enter into it? Or does god do things for people, not based on the goodness of evil of the act or the asker, but based on how much people praise his name?

Aren't pride, arrogance and greed sins? Doesn't the necessity of prayer make God evil?


If there is one thing I adore about fundamentalist Christians, it is that whenever anything goes their way, its God's work, and whenever anything evil hppens, it has nothing to do with God. When your delusion is so self-reinforcing that reality simply connot penetrate, then you can use it to justify anything. Such as the litany of human atrocity over the last few thousand years performed by 'pious' men entirely in the name of 'God'.
Prayer is always good. Speaking it allows you to be certain what you are asking for.

It's human nature for believers to thank God when things go their way. It's also natural to need God more when things don't your way. Good things happen we thank God. Bad things happen we don't feel God in our lives and need him more. Either way it's about his glory.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 02:45   #56
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
the presence of his local football team is accepted as likely by the people he raves about them to.
I dunno. I bet whoever supports Swindon Town has had to protest that they still exist. And they would certainly have to justify their beliefs pretty vehemently, which is the point.
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 02:52   #57
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Prayer is always good. Speaking it allows you to be certain what you are asking for.

It's human nature for believers to thank God when things go their way. It's also natural to need God more when things don't your way. Good things happen we thank God. Bad things happen we don't feel God in our lives and need him more. Either way it's about his glory.
you said it was about human nature.

so basically god is like food. the only obvious difference being that food seldom tells you that homosexuality is evil
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 03:00   #58
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

I support barcelona because they play the beautiful game


Also I only talk about football with people I know are also interested in talking about football. Frankly I have little to no interest in being told about how I'm destined for hell (which travler actually has told me at least once in the past to my best recollection).
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 06:34   #59
Travler
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you said it was about human nature.

so basically god is like food. the only obvious difference being that food seldom tells you that homosexuality is evil
Difference is that once you have God you no longer hunger for peace of mind.

Yahwe you once told me that you would love to be a father. The only person stopping that from happening is you. Not genetics. Not sexual orientation. Just your choice. Debate it all you want but this is the simple truth.

I am not trying to attack you Yahwe if that is how you might percieve this. I am just trying to point out that some of the things you want are already available to you.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 06:53   #60
Travler
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Also I only talk about football with people I know are also interested in talking about football. Frankly I have little to no interest in being told about how I'm destined for hell (which travler actually has told me at least once in the past to my best recollection).
I think it was more about your choice. I don't know if you are destined for hell. That's between you and God. Accordiing to some beliefs if you were Christened as a baby then you are saved and going to heaven.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 07:05   #61
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Difference is that once you have God you no longer hunger for peace of mind.

Yahwe you once told me that you would love to be a father. The only person stopping that from happening is you. Not genetics. Not sexual orientation. Just your choice. Debate it all you want but this is the simple truth.

I am not trying to attack you Yahwe if that is how you might percieve this. I am just trying to point out that some of the things you want are already available to you.
I percieve that you do not understand what you are saying. You do not understand the evil you are prosletising.

I percieve that you genuinely enjoy your absurd beliefs.

You prefer to live in a dichotomy.

Good, evil, right, wrong, black, white; like a child you find it comforting to live in this escapist fantasy.

Unfortunately you term it religion. You bastardise doctrine that you do not understand. You pervert tolerence and liberalism to a state whereby it is the very opposite of what it began as.

What I do not percieve is you reading other peoples posts. Nor do I percieve you thinking.
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 07:09   #62
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Maybe I misread travler's post there... possible I did.

But did you just say that it's Yahwe's choice? Can you actually force someone to be aroused by a particular gender? I've heard of these little 'support groups' {read: camps} over here that can allegedly convert homosexuals to heterosexuals after a period of time... I can't help but wonder how exactly that works.

At any rate, travler, can you honestly come on here and immediately change your sexual orientation so that you are attracted to other males? Can you change yourself so that the thought of male anatomy turns you on?

You seem to be implying that homosexuality is similar to a lightswitch, where it's a personal thing that can be switched on and off at will, which is something undoubtedly half of the gay community would be laughing at you for even trying to attempt to flog that point off. Apart from perhaps sheer coercion such as those camps mentioned earlier, how exactly does one 'change' their orientation?

And... off topic of this, one final little question. I'm fairly content with my life right now. There is nothing missing for me in terms of a career, athletic ability, social ability, and all round general things that I enjoy doing. Admittedly, I have no relationship right now, but that's not something which is causing me any distress. My peace of mind is sound, and I am more or less a stable individual. I do not need god in order to accomplish this, nor have I ever.

It seems to me that those that need god in their lives in order to feel secure, satisfied, and otherwise happy with themselves are completely weak-minded individuals and are not able to rely on their own human self to get them through life. Is this type of people the ones that should be leading others like 'lost sheep'?
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 10:07   #63
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidly
Maybe I misread travler's post there... possible I did.

But did you just say that it's Yahwe's choice? Can you actually force someone to be aroused by a particular gender? I've heard of these little 'support groups' {read: camps} over here that can allegedly convert homosexuals to heterosexuals after a period of time... I can't help but wonder how exactly that works.
A combination of intense Christian indoctrination (i.e. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, GOD SAYS SO AND THOU SHALT DO AS THOU ART MOTHER****ING TOLD, it's the word of God, blah blah blah) and severe pressure to make the unhappy camper believe that they are a freak and must repress these feelings.


The 'successful' end product is a person who is still a homosexual (or whatever), but one who has been forced to repress this via the most powerful tool available - religion. They're not allowed to be gay. It's not that they're not gay anymore.



If anyone wants to post some Google links, it'd probably come in handy - I tried searching for "homosexual camps" but just got a bunch of results for the Scissor Sisters
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 12:35   #64
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Prayer is always good. Speaking it allows you to be certain what you are asking for.
So... prayer has nothing to do with God? Its just a Christian version of a Blackberry?

"Dear Lord: breakfast at 8:15, call mother at 9:00, meeting with the staff at 10:15... Oops, wait, thats supposed to be at 10:30. Thank God I prayed. His will be done."

Quote:
It's human nature for believers to thank God when things go their way. It's also natural to need God more when things don't your way. Good things happen we thank God. Bad things happen we don't feel God in our lives and need him more. Either way it's about his glory.
See, traveller, you were doing so well for a while there. Its not Human nature, its religious nature, but other than that I agree with you.

Until the last bit. 'Bad things happen we don't feel God in our lives and need him any more'.

So, since you didn't explain that, I can see it as being interpreted two ways: Either if you don't believe, God punishes you with bad things, or if you DO believe, God rewards you with good things, and withholds rewards from non-believers.

Either way, by that interprettion, God is a dick. This in the end is the problem I have with this particular view of an interventionist God, that somehow he intervenes for his faithful when the ask for it, and ignores the rest. This view is utterly incompatable with the notion of a 'Good' God. It lays out a structure where God rewards Loyalty and punishes disloyalty, and doesn't care about broader concepts as good or evil. If I am a 'Good' person, in fact if I am an exemplary person, but do not believe, then I am withheld reward, and admittance into heaven. In other words, my lack of belief supercedes any inherent good or evil of my actions.

That God is arrogant, petty and vain by definition.


Oh, and for the record, I have no problem with religion, nor with many religious charities. I spoke the praises of the Salvation Army earlier, who help anyone without prostheletizing or caring who they are or what they believe.

My problem comes with conversionist religions, especially those arrogant SOBs who wander the world free of doubt or critical thought, assured that since THEY are right and EVERYONE else is wrong, their actions can be justified by the rightness.

That goes from the extreme of the abortion clinic bomber (working for God of course), to the congregation whoscream out against the unholiness of homosexuality thanks to the asinine drivel that is Leviticus, to the Statesman who decides he will ONLY fund those third world charity clinics that do not promote abortion.


So when you 'thank God' for allowing these talking Jesus dolls to be distributed to needy children, I ask myself would a loving God have intervened in this case? Would a God have seen the need for 1000 talking Jesus dolls to be of clear and present significance enough to warrant divine intervention? Cause somebody might want to alert him about Darfur. Maybe those people weren't praying hard enough (before they were raped and slaughtered by the Janjaweed).
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 17:07   #65
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Seeing as Boogster claims those posting “Hate Religion” and due to the fact I regularly post on these threads I thought I would reply with my stance.

Do I hate religion? Yes and No. While I have no problem with people having faith and believing in a higher being I hate religious organisations with a passion. These are group’s setup to raise self appointed leaders into a position of power with the view of imposing their views on others through fear. These organisations aren’t anything to do with a god, they are man abusing peoples faith and insecurities. The bibles a perfect example of this, so much faith is put in this book’s accuracy because in the words of Travlers beloved Pastor Chuck

Quote:
The New Testament canon in its current form was first formally attested in 367. Nevertheless, church leaders applied important standards when compiling the Bible. Authors of accepted writings needed to have walked and talked with Jesus, or at least with his leading disciples. Their teaching could not contradict what other apostles had written, and their documents must have been accepted by the entire church, from Jerusalem to Rome. Church leaders considered earlier letters and reports more credible than later documents. Finally, they prayed and trusted the Holy Spirit to guide their decisions.
If this isn’t selective editing then I don’t know what is. I mean
  1. Author must have met and spoken to Jesus – I have met and spoken to Maria Sharapova but does that make me a valid source to write a book about her just on the single meeting. I haven’t met George Best but I could write a book claiming I had and it would be hard to disprove. Also I am not the Archbishop of Canterbury but what’s to stop me writing a book as him. And we are now living in a period where validating information is a lot easier than its ever been and it will continue to get easier but even then if enough time lapses it gets harder. Back when the current canon was formed it was hundreds of years after the reports were supposedly written so how did they decide who is who they claim they are, who had met Jesus and who had enough contact to be a reliable first hand witness
  2. If It contradicted others it was thrown out – Who says that the others aren’t wrong and the contradictorily source isn’t right. And human beings can view the same things differently so is a few different perspectives really valid for throwing a whole source out
  3. It had to be agreed by everyone – People don’t agree on most things, even in a smallish group of like minded people such as this will see only parts that fit in with the core beliefs being agreed and anything else will be discarded. So its hardly reliable is it
  4. They prayed to be guided to make the right decisions – So basically that’s saying they edited the bible based on gut feelings. While at times peoples gut feelings can be right but at the same time they can be wrong as our beliefs, social surroundings and our upbringing can all affect it

It’s simply not a reliable text because of this, if it was to be reedited today in such a manner it would see the church crucified in the same way that Michael Moore is whenever he releases a new book or documentary due to it being so 1 sided and heavy handed that any real points it makes are masked by the attempts to boost ego’s and to force the same beliefs onto others

Anyway if you want to have faith then go ahead and have it, I have no problem with anyone finding ways help them get through life be it by having faith in God or Buddha or Allah, or Satan, or Aliens or even Science.

I can probably even tolerate you belonging to and actively practising an ‘organised religion’ (A grouping which I include not only the main religions but also any other ‘cult’ like spiritual group for example scientology) if you choose to by your own free will and haven’t been scared into following the religion, or preyed upon as your in a vulnerable situation and when you make that choice you and your group then start preaching your religion to others and trying to impose your beliefs onto others. Some people believe that women have a right to have abortions and it’s a difficult choice for them so you shouldn’t be making them feel guilty for their choice and homosexuality is something some people are born with. It’s not some illness that can be cured. Just like a heterosexual they need support to help them come to terms with their sexuality not made to feel guilty by a bunch of bigots.
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Unread 20 Nov 2006, 21:10   #66
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey

Do I hate religion? Yes and No. While I have no problem with people having faith and believing in a higher being I hate religious organisations with a passion. These are group’s setup to raise self appointed leaders into a position of power with the view of imposing their views on others through fear. These organisations aren’t anything to do with a god, they are man abusing peoples faith and insecurities. The bibles a perfect example of this, so much faith is put in this book’s accuracy because in the words of Travlers beloved Pastor Chuck...
Righto. This is where you lose me. I'm just not sure how you justify your reaction to organised religion. It doesn't seem wholly rational to generalise in such a narrow fashion. Do you honestly believe that every religious leader in the world is some kind of machiavellian despot? After giving it some thought, can you even be sure that the majority of religious leaders are manipulative obligarchs? How many religious people in positions of authority do you know personally?
I'm interested: do you also, for example, think that all poor people steal? That all girls wear pink? That no politician ever has good intentions? Yahwe has already helpfully reminded us of those hazy greys that cloud our moral judgement. Do you not think that applies here?
Though I don't know anythinlg about your upbringing I've attended church all of my life. According to my experience there are quite definitely negative aspects to organised religion. There is a tendency to become unhelpfully caught up in celebrity; there is opportunity for misuse of power; and there is often a crude and distasteful obsession with numbers and aggressive evangelism. This stuff exists, clearly, but it does not warrant this bizarrely simplistic, and wholly objectionable, categorisation of a huge number of people.
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Unread 21 Nov 2006, 00:46   #67
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

I'm sorry but I can't support anything to do with Christmas prior to the first day of December. Christmas lasts too long even at that.

I have a hard time being jolly at Christmas but that may be because of the ten years I spent as a postal worker.
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Unread 21 Nov 2006, 07:49   #68
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidly
Maybe I misread travler's post there... possible I did.

But did you just say that it's Yahwe's choice? Can you actually force someone to be aroused by a particular gender? I've heard of these little 'support groups' {read: camps} over here that can allegedly convert homosexuals to heterosexuals after a period of time... I can't help but wonder how exactly that works.

At any rate, travler, can you honestly come on here and immediately change your sexual orientation so that you are attracted to other males? Can you change yourself so that the thought of male anatomy turns you on?

You seem to be implying that homosexuality is similar to a lightswitch, where it's a personal thing that can be switched on and off at will, which is something undoubtedly half of the gay community would be laughing at you for even trying to attempt to flog that point off. Apart from perhaps sheer coercion such as those camps mentioned earlier, how exactly does one 'change' their orientation?

And... off topic of this, one final little question. I'm fairly content with my life right now. There is nothing missing for me in terms of a career, athletic ability, social ability, and all round general things that I enjoy doing. Admittedly, I have no relationship right now, but that's not something which is causing me any distress. My peace of mind is sound, and I am more or less a stable individual. I do not need god in order to accomplish this, nor have I ever.

It seems to me that those that need god in their lives in order to feel secure, satisfied, and otherwise happy with themselves are completely weak-minded individuals and are not able to rely on their own human self to get them through life. Is this type of people the ones that should be leading others like 'lost sheep'?
Your reading a possible implied message rather than the actual words. Lets review:
1. Yahwe has stated that he is gay therefore he would not normally engage in intercourse with a woman resulting in pregnancy.
2. Yahwe has stated a desire to be a father.
3. I stated that Yahwe could choose to be a father.

So we have 3 basic points.

If Yahwe choose to be a father he has several ways to achieve this.
1. Yahwe has intercourse with a female(s) until one concieves and gets pregnant. The easiest option in terms of financial and may be easiest to achieve provided that Yahwe's desire to be a father outweighs his normal homosexual tendancies. Highly unlikely but its the cheap way out.
2. Yahwe adopts a child. Expensive and time consuming. May be difficult to achieve as a homosexual even in a relationship as some aspects of society still do not give equal treatment to alternative lifestyles.
3. Yahwe pays for a woman to be artificially inseminated with his genetic contribution. The woman can be lesbian or straight depending on the agreement. I have heard of lesbian woman and gay men cooperating in this manner to have both parties aquire children. The lesbian couple gets a child from the gay partners and the gay partners get a child from the lesbian couple. 2 Children 4 adults 2 families and then maybe they all remain friends.

Point being that Yahwe can choose a path that suits him to achieve his desires but the simplest path is the one made for him. He only has to overcome himself for the cheap option. The other options are still available but his desire to achieve these must be greater as they require more work.

I saw a funny movie about one of these turn the gays and lesbians straight camps and the movie ended with everyone just lying about to their parents about who they really were. You cannot force someone to change. Change comes from within. You might get a reaction but it has to be up to the person to desire to change.

I cannot change Yahwe. I don't want to change Yahwe. In truth from what I have read I'm not so sure he would make a good parent. Kids need strict boundaries and absolutes to learn what is right and what is wrong. He might teach his children a world of grey where stealing is ok if you don't get caught but helping others is not always right or something.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 21 Nov 2006, 08:10   #69
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Your reading a possible implied message rather than the actual words. Lets review:
1. Yahwe has stated that he is gay therefore he would not normally engage in intercourse with a woman resulting in pregnancy.
No I haven't.

P.S. You're a Moron
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Unread 21 Nov 2006, 14:26   #70
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Righto. This is where you lose me. I'm just not sure how you justify your reaction to organised religion. It doesn't seem wholly rational to generalise in such a narrow fashion. Do you honestly believe that every religious leader in the world is some kind of machiavellian despot? After giving it some thought, can you even be sure that the majority of religious leaders are manipulative obligarchs? How many religious people in positions of authority do you know personally?
I'm interested: do you also, for example, think that all poor people steal? That all girls wear pink? That no politician ever has good intentions? Yahwe has already helpfully reminded us of those hazy greys that cloud our moral judgement. Do you not think that applies here?
Though I don't know anythinlg about your upbringing I've attended church all of my life. According to my experience there are quite definitely negative aspects to organised religion. There is a tendency to become unhelpfully caught up in celebrity; there is opportunity for misuse of power; and there is often a crude and distasteful obsession with numbers and aggressive evangelism. This stuff exists, clearly, but it does not warrant this bizarrely simplistic, and wholly objectionable, categorisation of a huge number of people.
I however didn’t comment on the individuals but the organisations as a whole. The individuals are largely unimportant because no matter how pure their intentions the tools they have at their disposal to try and fulfil their intentions undermine their actions. They are using an organisation that was both arrogant enough to believe they are infallible and have intelligence to comprehend and retell the teachings of a higher being and which seemingly used the religion to further their own agendas through the use of condemnation and fear. And now these blatant lies and bigoted beliefs are held as the absolute truth and used to justify despicable actions that seemingly contradict the core elements of that religion and just make the world a worse place for everyone to live in
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Unread 21 Nov 2006, 14:46   #71
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I cannot change Yahwe. I don't want to change Yahwe. In truth from what I have read I'm not so sure he would make a good parent. Kids need strict boundaries and absolutes to learn what is right and what is wrong. He might teach his children a world of grey where stealing is ok if you don't get caught but helping others is not always right or something.
I think that if God is real and had an option of giving yourself or Yahwe a kid, Yahwe would win every time. After all if God created humans he did so by making us different from pretty much every animal we know of. Our brain is able of a lot of things that other animals cant do and one of the most important things our brain allows us to do is be free thinking and inventive. So if there is a God he clearly wanted us to question things, not act like cheep and to constantly better ourselves and increase our knowledge.

This means you as a ‘mindless drone’ that isn’t able to be critical and free thinking are a lot less ‘worthy’ than Yahew. In fact I’d go as far as saying you would be considered a ‘sinner’ in the eyes of any God as great as the one you worship as your betraying the gifts he gave you and attempting to stop others from using the gifts either. As such any kid brought up by Yahwe would be more like the kind of person God intended us to be than any kid brought up by you.

Ofc it could turn out that the God you worship is real and does get a kick out of the masses of mindless drones that follow him but as someone else said that’s one petty and vein God and I’m not sure such a being deserves to be worshipped or respected
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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 13:54   #72
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I think that if God is real and had an option of giving yourself or Yahwe a kid, Yahwe would win every time. After all if God created humans he did so by making us different from pretty much every animal we know of. Our brain is able of a lot of things that other animals cant do and one of the most important things our brain allows us to do is be free thinking and inventive. So if there is a God he clearly wanted us to question things, not act like cheep and to constantly better ourselves and increase our knowledge.

This means you as a ‘mindless drone’ that isn’t able to be critical and free thinking are a lot less ‘worthy’ than Yahew. In fact I’d go as far as saying you would be considered a ‘sinner’ in the eyes of any God as great as the one you worship as your betraying the gifts he gave you and attempting to stop others from using the gifts either. As such any kid brought up by Yahwe would be more like the kind of person God intended us to be than any kid brought up by you.

Ofc it could turn out that the God you worship is real and does get a kick out of the masses of mindless drones that follow him but as someone else said that’s one petty and vein God and I’m not sure such a being deserves to be worshipped or respected
Wakey you don't seem to understant God at all. God wants you to be everything HE has called you to be. He did give you a mind to question things and figure things out. Why would God not want you to use your brain?

Seriously I did not just walk into a church, get hit with a cattle prod, find myself tied up to a chair, and forced to listen to Gospel music until I converted. It was nothing like that at all. I made the choice. I made the decision. And yes there are days when I have my doubts. I rethink everything that led me to believe and yet over the past 2 years since I became a believer I still believe.

God still amazes me. I was playing PA last night and I wanted to covert op a planet attacking my galaxy and God said not to do it. I thought why not and did it. The covert op failed. Why would he even bother to assist me with a war game? Not sure on that one but I need to learn to listen to him cause he is right every time.

By the way I am already a parent with 2 children of my own and 3 in total in my household.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 14:01   #73
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Wakey you don't seem to understant God at all. God wants you to be everything HE has called you to be. He did give you a mind to question things and figure things out. Why would God not want you to use your brain?

Seriously I did not just walk into a church, get hit with a cattle prod, find myself tied up to a chair, and forced to listen to Gospel music until I converted. It was nothing like that at all. I made the choice. I made the decision. And yes there are days when I have my doubts. I rethink everything that led me to believe and yet over the past 2 years since I became a believer I still believe.

God still amazes me. I was playing PA last night and I wanted to covert op a planet attacking my galaxy and God said not to do it. I thought why not and did it. The covert op failed. Why would he even bother to assist me with a war game? Not sure on that one but I need to learn to listen to him cause he is right every time.

By the way I am already a parent with 2 children of my own and 3 in total in my household.

Ignoring the utter idiocy of of the comment completely, God spoke to you and you ignored him?
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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 14:13   #74
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I think it was more about your choice. I don't know if you are destined for hell. That's between you and God. Accordiing to some beliefs if you were Christened as a baby then you are saved and going to heaven.
Hahaha you're going to burn in hell.
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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 15:19   #75
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Wakey you don't seem to understant God at all. God wants you to be everything HE has called you to be. He did give you a mind to question things and figure things out. Why would God not want you to use your brain?

Seriously I did not just walk into a church, get hit with a cattle prod, find myself tied up to a chair, and forced to listen to Gospel music until I converted. It was nothing like that at all. I made the choice. I made the decision. And yes there are days when I have my doubts. I rethink everything that led me to believe and yet over the past 2 years since I became a believer I still believe.

God still amazes me. I was playing PA last night and I wanted to covert op a planet attacking my galaxy and God said not to do it. I thought why not and did it. The covert op failed. Why would he even bother to assist me with a war game? Not sure on that one but I need to learn to listen to him cause he is right every time.

By the way I am already a parent with 2 children of my own and 3 in total in my household.
I would argue that if there is a god and he is ‘good’ as Christians claim then in fact I understand him more than any of you bible bashers. A good god after all isn’t a vein, judgmental, megalomaniac and he certainly wouldn’t be happy with the people acting in a bigoted, close minded manner in his name

Those of us who value the gifts we have (be them god given or simply a case of science/nature) and try and use them to their full potential to try and better ourselves while living in a manner that is as helpful, good and kind to those around us as possible is the exact kind of person

As for your comment about him helping you at PA, are you sure you don’t belong in a mental institute. Humans are self aware and know what’s right and wrong, this isn’t anything to do with god speaking to you but a combination of our make up of our brain and our society conditioning us. Covert ops is a tactic which is a little ‘sneaky’ and as such you found yourself questioning yourself as to its legitimise of use. After all do you really think a god has time to help you play PA while he doesn’t have time to sort out less insignificant problems affecting the world? If you really do think he has time to talk to you either need to check into a mental institute or have a bit of an ego check as you’re not that important

And you last sentence really isn’t relevant; it doesn’t matter if you have kid’s or not it was a hypothetical situation in response to you questioning Yahew ability to bring up a kid well. A lot of people in this world have kids, a large amount of them bring them up in a manner which doesn’t leave them being well rounded individuals so having kids is hardly a good measure of your parenting ability
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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 18:14   #76
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
God still amazes me. I was playing PA last night and I wanted to covert op a planet attacking my galaxy and God said not to do it. I thought why not and did it. The covert op failed. Why would he even bother to assist me with a war game? Not sure on that one but I need to learn to listen to him cause he is right every time.
So, to be clear... GOD spoke to you last night, I assume you have a bush in your room that caught fire or some such. There was no ambiguity in your statement, no question as to wheither it might have been the TV on downstairs, or your fillings picking up KZMB (All Zombie Radio!!), or one of your kids squalling from the next room, you are convinced GOD spoke to you.


Lets call that: Evidence of lunacy #1, shall we?


So when GOD spoke to you, what did he speak to you about? Was it telling you to bet on 42 on roulette? Was he telling you to be more humble and devout? Was he telling you to give your earthly posessions to Charity and join a monestary? Was he asking you to plant a pipe bomb in an abortion clinic? was he sking you to lead your people to freedom across the desert?

No. GOD spoke to you, and he told you to not launch a 'special ops' attack on planet in the online computer game Planetarion. So sayeth the Lord.

Lets call that: Evidence of lunacy #2 shall we?


So, having had GOD speak to you (no ambiguity pparently, it was GOD), and having decided that the most valuable way to spend his time on earth was not to heal the sick, clothe the homeless or feed the hungry, but to gibe you advice on how to make an attack in a petty online computer game, you then chose to IGNORE the will of God.

Let's call that Evidence of lunacy #3, shall we?


I dated a psychiatrist for a couple years back in the day, and let me tell you something. If someone comes to the hospital stating that God spoke to them, they do not hold a consultation to determine if God actually might be speaking to the person, they isntantly categorise them as delusional. And you know what? They are correct.


Belief cn be a wonderful thing I imagine. It can help you through incredibly difficult times if you are the kind of person who is not strong enough to get through them without a crutch. It can help you be a good person, as long as you only obey some of the 'rules' and ignore the evil ones. It can promote people giving to charity, and help others in some (though sadly too few) cases.


But coming on here and saying GOD gave you advice on playing Planetarion, and you ignored it? That makes you an utter simpleton. Sorry.
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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 19:48   #77
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
God still amazes me. I was playing PA last night and I wanted to covert op a planet attacking my galaxy and God said not to do it. I thought why not and did it. The covert op failed. Why would he even bother to assist me with a war game? Not sure on that one but I need to learn to listen to him cause he is right every time.
At first I thought you were a bit of a cock to be frank, but now, after reading that, you're my favourite. internet. person. ever. I don't know what your planetarion name is, but I suggest: The Almightly Power of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 19:56   #78
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
...about how I'm destined for hell (which travler actually has told me at least once in the past to my best recollection).
Woah there. Has he done this to others? Is there some kind of list, if not, can he make one? Please Trevler, please.
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Unread 22 Nov 2006, 21:04   #79
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
So we have 3 basic points.

If Yahwe choose to be a father he has several ways to achieve this.
1. Yahwe has intercourse with a female(s) until one concieves and gets pregnant. The easiest option in terms of financial and may be easiest to achieve provided that Yahwe's desire to be a father outweighs his normal homosexual tendancies. Highly unlikely but its the cheap way out.
2. Yahwe adopts a child. Expensive and time consuming. May be difficult to achieve as a homosexual even in a relationship as some aspects of society still do not give equal treatment to alternative lifestyles.
3. Yahwe pays for a woman to be artificially inseminated with his genetic contribution. The woman can be lesbian or straight depending on the agreement. I have heard of lesbian woman and gay men cooperating in this manner to have both parties aquire children. The lesbian couple gets a child from the gay partners and the gay partners get a child from the lesbian couple. 2 Children 4 adults 2 families and then maybe they all remain friends.
I am not familiar with UK law, and was under the impression that they did not allow homosexual couples to legally adopt children(if I am wrong, apologies). Option 3 is extreme at best... and I'm still not fully convinced that you didn't just pull this one out of your butt for argument sake.

Quote:
I saw a funny movie about one of these turn the gays and lesbians straight camps and the movie ended with everyone just lying about to their parents about who they really were. You cannot force someone to change. Change comes from within. You might get a reaction but it has to be up to the person to desire to change.
It's a horrifying concept honestly. Change comes within, but only to a certain point. Sexual orientation cannot be changed, and should not be forced to be change. You can't force yourself to desire a guy's anatomy, and neither can I.

Quote:
I cannot change Yahwe. I don't want to change Yahwe. In truth from what I have read I'm not so sure he would make a good parent. Kids need strict boundaries and absolutes to learn what is right and what is wrong. He might teach his children a world of grey where stealing is ok if you don't get caught but helping others is not always right or something.
Who are you to say what makes a good parent? I could argue that your undoubted brainwashing of your kids early on with religion makes you almost as bad as hitler's youth program way back when, but I won't. Yahwe I think would make his kids learn somewhat harshly to think for themselves, as opposed to you who will give them no choice in their beliefs whatsoever.

The world is black and white? Maybe in a few cases. There are many others which aren't. Abortion due to rape? Capital punishment for saddam hussein? Stealing from a thief, etc. If you can't see that there are grey areas... well, how exactly would you tell a rape victim that she couldn't have the kid inside her removed? The only people who don't see grey areas are the ones devoid of a good portion of their humanity.

Yes, kids need a set of boundaries early on, but not to the point where they cannot develop either. I lived under a strict rock for the first fair years of my life... and guess what: I have problems socializing decently at parties, I tend to not be able to mingle well with random people I don't know... the list goes on in that department. Why? because I had strict restrictions placed on me all the way till 17. Do your kids a favor and allow them at least some shred of decision-making for themselves some day.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 07:38   #80
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidly
Yes, kids need a set of boundaries early on, but not to the point where they cannot develop either. I lived under a strict rock for the first fair years of my life... and guess what: I have problems socializing decently at parties, I tend to not be able to mingle well with random people I don't know... the list goes on in that department. Why? because I had strict restrictions placed on me all the way till 17. Do your kids a favor and allow them at least some shred of decision-making for themselves some day.
I never said that there were not any grey areas. In fact the grey seems to me to be the majority of the time. What I am saying is that in some areas kids need firm boundaries. Here is an example:

Kid says to parent: "Can I pee on the floor?"

1. Parent with strong boundaries replies: "NO!, you CANNOT PEE on the FLOOR."

2. Parent encouraging decision making skills: "Do you think the floor is the appropriate place for your pee to go?"

Result of #1: Kid knows that peeing on the floor is not correct.

Result of #2: Kid unsure about where the pee should go.

If kids think that something is only bad some of the time they may also generalize other things as well.

Don't be a victim. Don't blame your parents for every flaw you think you have. The only thing keeping you from doing what you want is you. It's all smoke and mirrors to start blaming anything other than ourselves for why we are not what we want to be.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 07:46   #81
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
But coming on here and saying GOD gave you advice on playing Planetarion, and you ignored it? That makes you an utter simpleton. Sorry.
All he said was "Don't do it."
I scanned the planet for structures. Saw zero security centers. Went to the covert ops screen. Typed in the coordinates and before I clicked the initiate button I heard in my head "Don't do it." I paused for a moment to rethink and then though I was just being a tad foolish for even thinking it was God so I went ahead and clicked the initiate button and it failed. Zero security centers and it failed. Thats when I realized my mistake.

God talks to everyone all the time. It's just that most of us are not listening.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 08:12   #82
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler

God talks to everyone all the time. It's just that most of us are not listening.
What does he say to tsunami victims?

"Sorry about that I was drunk" ???
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 10:55   #83
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Kid says to parent: "Can I pee on the floor?"

1. Parent with strong boundaries replies: "NO!, you CANNOT PEE on the FLOOR."

2. Parent encouraging decision making skills: "Do you think the floor is the appropriate place for your pee to go?"

Result of #1: Kid knows that peeing on the floor is not correct.

Result of #2: Kid unsure about where the pee should go.

If kids think that something is only bad some of the time they may also generalize other things as well.

Don't be a victim. Don't blame your parents for every flaw you think you have. The only thing keeping you from doing what you want is you. It's all smoke and mirrors to start blaming anything other than ourselves for why we are not what we want to be.
Actually both are as bad as each other. Studies have shown that simply telling a kid that they shouldn’t do something actually hinder their development. It creates people who are sheep and can’t think for themselves (although that’s no doubt a quality you think is good as its what the church imposes on you) and people don’t like being ordered and are more likely to rebel. The correct response would be a firm no but with justification as to why they shouldn’t, this then helps build their moral compass and allows them to make decisions on issues later in life. It also empowers the kid by letting them be more involved in their decisions. As a general rule any time you tell a kid they can or cant do something it should be followed with a BECAUSE

For example
- Don’t pee on the floor because its unhygienic
- Don’t run with scissors because if you fall your stab yourself
- Do you’re homework because it will increase your knowledge and make your life easier in future
- Do eat your fruit/veg because it will help you stay healthy and live longer
- Don’t smoke because it can cause cancer and other health issues
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 14:28   #84
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I paused for a moment to rethink and then though I was just being a tad foolish for even thinking it was God so I went ahead and clicked the initiate button and it failed.
You should go with your first instints in case like this, they are seldom wrong.

I note you ignored the rest of my post. Must have been like people ignoring when God talks to them ll the time.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 14:53   #85
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

hey all,


Here's my take on religion. Its like you are in a huge life circle . At the beginning your parents brought you up to believe in religion, in the middle you couldn't give a shit, then in the end when you have your own children you start the cycle over again. I feel religion is a good way to help you teach morality to your children.

Whatever you were brought up as, either extreme, your religion gives you a sense of belonging to something, its give you hope and happiness(well not at 10am on sunday morning when every normal person is asleep). It gives you a set of rules to live your life by if you so choose.

I currently going throught the I couldn't give a shit phase but in the new year I guess the old pair/old pair inlaws will want me get the baby baptised and we shall begin the cycle over again.

tsm
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 16:07   #86
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm
hey all,

Here's my take on religion. Its like you are in a huge life circle . At the beginning your parents brought you up to believe in religion, in the middle you couldn't give a shit, then in the end when you have your own children you start the cycle over again. I feel religion is a good way to help you teach morality to your children.

Whatever you were brought up as, either extreme, your religion gives you a sense of belonging to something, its give you hope and happiness(well not at 10am on sunday morning when every normal person is asleep). It gives you a set of rules to live your life by if you so choose.

I currently going throught the I couldn't give a shit phase but in the new year I guess the old pair/old pair inlaws will want me get the baby baptised and we shall begin the cycle over again.

tsm
You acting as if organised religion is the only way such things can be achieved and that’s wrong.

For starters the whole teaching kids morality argument’s pretty flawed when most organised religions have a pretty ****ed up sense of morality as it is. Christian morality for example still seems to largely hold women in a lower regard to men, is willing to put women through the agony of carrying a baby to term that was conceived during rape and make homosexuals feel like dirty sinners who will burn in hell. Is that really a morality we want people teaching their kids, and hey is it a morality that any god would want instilled in people in his name. I think not.

The whole aspect of rules to live by also aren’t exclusive to religion, pick up a copy of Aesop’s fables and they will teach you the same kind of rules that the Bible does without the fear. And you can instil a code of morals to a kid without any kind of ‘guide’ to do it as we all know what’s right and wrong and can pass this on.

As for sense of belonging, that’s not something you need religion for. We can feel we belong in a number of ways without joining an organised religion. This can either be by being part of some kind of team (such as sports teams), being part of a group of fans who support something in particular, being part of a group or friends/family or even a sense of self belonging through belief.

And I think on that last line is where we hit the problem. People seem to have this idea that to have belief you have to belong to and accept all their teachings but you don’t as belief and organised religion are completely different things.

To have belief and get the sense of belonging, hope and happiness that comes with that you do not need to join the façade that’s organised religion.
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Unread 23 Nov 2006, 22:38   #87
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
What I am saying is that in some areas kids need firm boundaries. Here is an example:

Kid says to parent: "Can I pee on the floor?"

1. Parent with strong boundaries replies: "NO!, you CANNOT PEE on the FLOOR."

2. Parent encouraging decision making skills: "Do you think the floor is the appropriate place for your pee to go?"

Result of #1: Kid knows that peeing on the floor is not correct.

Result of #2: Kid unsure about where the pee should go.
3. Parent with boundries and a sense of humor: "No, you can't Pee on the floor, it's a pain to clean up and it's not sanitary. But if you really want to, go over to Travler's house."

Result of #3: Kid knows that it's not good to pee on the floor, but if he really wants to try it to 'get it out of his system' so he's tried the experience and won't dwell on wondering about it anymore, he can do it at someone else's house so his parents don't have to clean it up.
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 01:23   #88
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
then in the end when you have your own children you start the cycle over again. I feel religion is a good way to help you teach morality to your children.
I don't take lessons on morality from people who don't take lessons on morality from themselves.

In the United States, half the country firmly, sometimes fanatically believes that Jesus would want you to put criminals to death. They have even changed the nature of the third commandment, claiming it doesn't REALLY say thou shalt not Kill, but rather thou shalt not murder. So state executions are fine.

(These people tend to get all cross when you suggest that Jesus might not like state executions, considering he was executed by the state)

The other half the country (less than half actually) believes that the third commandment means you cannot put prisoners to death, because killing is wrong.

So if Christianity cannot even get their sh*t together on determining if its acceptable or not to take a human life, which morality exactly are they supposed to 'help' teach children?

Jesus had some wonderful messages, and some truly amazing lessons. 'Judge not lest ye be judged' was a good one. If people could focus more on that one, and less on Homosexuality being an abomination, things would be so much nicer.

In the end, religion is like astrology or horoscopes. The teachings are so extensive, vague and contradictory, you can find a lesson somewhere to match your pre-existing point of view. That’s why Christianity has been responsible for some of the greatest good of the world and some of the greatest evil, for furthering knowledge and for extinguishing the pursuit of knowledge, for promoting peace and for demanding bloodshed and massacre.

The faith that gave us mother Theresa also gave us round bullets for Christians and square bullets for Muslims.

There IS no religious morality, all there is is basic human morality, good or evil, that is couched in religious terms and framed with religious articles to give it a sense of divine legitimacy. The same 'God that told Traveller not to special ops a Planetarion planet is the one that told James Warren Jones to make 'special' Kool-aid, and to force feed it to the children. God isn't a voice that speaks to you, God is a self-rationalisation for allowing yourself to follow your own inner desires, be it good or evil.

You don't NEED to justify or explain your actions if 'GOD' told you to do it...
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 03:45   #89
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Not surprised you ignored most of my post there, but I'll respond to this.

First up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by you
I cannot change Yahwe. I don't want to change Yahwe. In truth from what I have read I'm not so sure he would make a good parent. Kids need strict boundaries and absolutes to learn what is right and what is wrong. He might teach his children a world of grey where stealing is ok if you don't get caught but helping others is not always right or something.
You either poorly worded this, or are backtracking. But, I swear you're advocating black vs white only. And chastising {sp?} yahwe for allegedly teaching a 'world of grey' which you are implying is bad too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Don't be a victim. Don't blame your parents for every flaw you think you have. The only thing keeping you from doing what you want is you. It's all smoke and mirrors to start blaming anything other than ourselves for why we are not what we want to be.
I had a nice long post for this, but decided against telling my pitiful little life story. Summarized, is this:

I was not allowed to get a drivers license at 18, 19, or 20 before the new program went in forcing me to now wait 2 years before I can get a fully qualified license. This will be amplified by the fact I can not get said license until I am fully certain where I will be established in 8 months from now.

I was not able to move out due to risk of my tuition paying being cut off.

I was not able to socialize outside of bday parties and school for 17 years because of them, and as a result am now shy and somewhat awkward at parties and whatnot. No movies with friends, no dates with girls, no sports past elementary school.

You cannot even attempt to blame me for this, as all of this was my parents decision, doing, and perogative. The only thing I'm guilty of is maybe not pressing the whole social thing starting from september this year, when I actually have some time. If you can somehow vindicate my parents for 17 years of me living under a rock, feel %*#$&ing free.
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Unread 24 Nov 2006, 09:44   #90
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Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
The faith that gave us mother Theresa also gave us round bullets for Christians and square bullets for Muslims.
Mother Theresa is quite a good example of charity work being bound extremely strongly to enforcing Catholic values and beliefs.
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