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Unread 25 Jan 2006, 18:03   #51
Nodrog
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think the bohm interpretation goes further than that. Even Einstein decried it as unnecessary superstructure.
I havent heard this before, but Einstein died only 3 years after Bohm published his theory so I'm sceptical over whether it's true. Anyway, I dont think too much weight could be given to Einstein's opinion here since he didnt live to see Bell's theorem and the relevant experiments. Einstein believed that there could be a hidden variables interpretation of QM, yet it was later shown that this could only be the case if you were willing to accept some degree of non-locality. Whether this would have caused him to abandon either hidden variables or locality can only be a matter of speculation - in any case, the claim that the superstructure is 'unnecessary' seems wrong.

Quote:
It's a coherent proposition that at the atomic level particles do not have definite positions or velocities.
No it isnt.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean here.The specific values are concerning wave fronts, not particles.
When you describe the interaction of a quantum system with a measuring apparatus in purely quantum mechanical terms, treating the measuring apparatus as being a collection of particles subject to the laws of QM, you end up with the measuring apparatus being in a superposition of states. This in conflict with the fact that we do, in practice, get a single definite measurement. Standard QM gives no explanation of how this is possible - its not that it doesnt explain how we get the value we get (although it doesnt do that either) - it doesnt explain how we can get _any_ value. The standard solution to this is to declare that the measurement apparatus has to be treated as a classical object rather than a quantum one, but this is ad hoc and arbitrary.

Quote:
Standard quantum mechanics is non-local anyways dude.
Sort of, but not in quite the same way. Standard QM navigates around the non-locality issues with a fair bit of handwaving, whereas its very very explicit in Bohm's theory.

Last edited by Nodrog; 25 Jan 2006 at 18:09.
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Unread 25 Jan 2006, 18:18   #52
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Intelligent Design is a crass attempt at proving the existence of god. Not to the world at large, bur rather to the proponents of Intelligent Design themselves. More and more, these religous people are faced with increasing amounts of hard scientific data and fact that demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that god does not exist. It must be a terrible thing to require a pyschological crutch to get you through the day. These people feel that if they can shout loud enough and long enough, ID will get accepted in schools. Yay! God does exist. We will go do heaven.

It's all bullshit. For their next trick, they'll start saying that Galileo really was wrong and Earth is the center of the Universe.
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Last edited by Belgarath The Sorcerer; 25 Jan 2006 at 18:33.
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Unread 25 Jan 2006, 18:32   #53
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I havent heard this before, but Einstein died only 3 years after Bohm published his theory so I'm sceptical over whether this is true. Anyway, I dont think too much weight could be given to Einstein's opinion here since he didnt live to see Bell's theorem and the relevant experiments. Einstein believed that there could be a hidden variables interpretation of QM, yet it was later shown that this could only be the case if you were willing to accept non-locality. Whether this would have caused him to abandon determinism or locality can only be a matter of speculation - in any case, the claim that the superstructure is 'unnecessary' would be wrong.
It wasn't 1257 dude, it didn't take three years for news to move around the globe. I'm aware of bell's theorem and the relevant experiments, my point was that even someone as virulently opposed to QM as einstein didn't exactly support bohm's interpretation.

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No it isnt.
"Things only have probabilities of happening." Not insanely hard to understand.

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When you describe the interaction of a quantum system with a measuring apparatus in purely quantum mechanical terms, treating the measuring apparatus as being a collection of particles subject to the laws of QM, you end up with the measuring apparatus being in a superposition of states. This in conflict with the fact that we do, in practice, get a single definite measurement. Standard QM gives no explanation of how this is possible - its not that it doesnt explain how we get the value we get (although it doesnt do that either) - it doesnt explain how we can get _any_ value. The standard solution to this is to declare that the measurement apparatus has to be treated as a classical object, but this is ad hoc and arbitrary.
Feynman's sum over paths method got rid of most of the amplitudes by virtue of the fact they cancelled each other out if you're looking for something funkily different. I don't really have that much of a problem with the idea that once you interfer with the system you certain results.


Quote:
Sort of, but not in quite the same way. Standard QM navigates around the non-locality issues with a fair bit of handwaving, whereas its very very explicit in Bohm's theory.
i'm not sure what you mean by a "fair bit of handwaving".
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Unread 25 Jan 2006, 20:44   #54
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Perhaps, but it's still a gross mischaracterization to equate those who aren't strongly against something as being favorable towards it.
"Regardless of what you may personally believe, which of these do you believe should be taught in public schools?"
Evolution only: 12%
Creationism only: 23%
ID only: 4%
All three: 55%.

Read your own damn polls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I agree, but at least we should be honest about what we are doing here - substituting childhood indoctrination for argument. Perhaps this is justified in order to rid society of religion, but it shows that what we really have is ultimately a power struggle between two incompataible ideologies (materialism vs religion).
False dichotomy. Why must you teach evolution/ID at all at that age?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I dont think this is a valid analogy because these things are actually in conflict with known evidence, whereas iIntelligent design is just a different interpretation of the experimental data - its more comparable to teaching Bohmian mechanics in a quantum physics class alongside Copenhagenism (sort of).

From a pedagogical perspective, It all comes down to which interpretation we want people to believe - I dont particularly like religion so I'm going to favour initiatives that will reduce its influence, such as not teaching ID in schools. But what we're doing here is ultimately a form of social engineering - its not a case of ID 'not being real science' or anything like that, because claims like this lack a solid foundation.
This is just bonkers. ID has no predictions, it has no falsifiable claims, it isn't based on observation of the evidence and indeed ignores the evidence. Your comparison would make sense if the random element of the Copenhagen model didn't provide problems and was in fact its greatest strength, as I'll elaberate upon below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
ID is not in conflict with evolution. But that doesn't mean it is science. The theory of evolution makes the same predictions regardless of whether or not you tack 'btw, God exists' onto the bottom of it.
ID isn't just the Theory of Evolution with that tacked on the end, it substantially changes things. The random element in Evolutionary theory has proved to be an immensely powerful tool in all areas, and with its removal we just don't have any tools to examine how often speciation takes place, or how related species are, or all manner of things, like an extremely good description of why the sex ratio is generally 1:1, and why it diverges from this when it diverges, or why all there is substantial evidence for an RNA world. ID takes the life out of Evolution, it removes the reason why it is so interesting, why it is so fascinating.
ID also poses an incredible number of question that we can't answer, above and beyond dealing with the evidence and replacing the arguments of the above, and can never answer - such as "Why were we designed?", "How were we designed?", and the like. By far the most stupid thing is that ID just moves the playing field from a question we have evidence and science to answer to one we can't. "How did the thing that created us come into being?"
Was this being designed by something else? An a priori existance independent of the universe? Did they evolve?

ID does nothing that a scientific theory does. ID doesn't expand our knowledge, it only decreases it, and our potential knowledge in the future. It is against the evidence, it removes a powerful tool and is politically undesireable, irrespective of whether you care for it or not.

Saying that it's harmless, or letting its proponents hold their views with little argument, is the curse of its main opponents. Dawkins is characterised as arrogant for claiming to be true what he knows scientifically, with sources, to be true, whilst people who work against him and a rational model of reality do much worse and are ignored or praised.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 00:16   #55
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Please provide an argument for this, or I'll take it as an amusing commentary on the tendency of religion to resort to meaningless statements when confronted with evidence.
"Memes".
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 01:38   #56
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

not everybody in this thread is not trolling
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 02:16   #57
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

I don't have anything against Intelligent Design or Creationism being taught as long as it's done in the right context. It's not science however and it shouldn't be passed off as science by people who really don't have a clue what science is and it doesn't belong in a science classroom unless it's used as a means to show what science is not.

If teachers are teaching kids about empirical evidence, research methods, and theory one day, and the next they tell them it's plausible that intelligence had a hand in evolution, something not testable, you can't expect these kids to make sense out of it. I doubt many kids will raise their hands and ask: "Yesterday you said that theories become accepted and are used as explanations once it is felt that research and observations support them, so what's the research or documented observations that support ID?" Well there was this piece of toast with the visage of the virgin Mary on it in Brazil a few years ago...
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 09:04   #58
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

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Originally Posted by Boogster
"Memes".
Another victory for either non-sequitur or misunderstanding then.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:07   #59
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Another victory for either non-sequitur or misunderstanding then.
To summarise:

I called Doc Dawkins an arsehole.
You asked why I thought such a thing, inferring that it was simply a mark of my innate inferiority.
I answered, rather curtly, 'Memes', because Dawkins likes to think of 'Memes' as ingenious scientific fact.

I happen to think the idea of mysterious pseudo-gene thingies that transmit certain cultural fallibilities (like belief in God) is just about as absurd and as far from science as you think (perhaps justifiably - I do not know enough to judge) ID is. Dawkins is a man, or rather, a crude polemecist, on a mission that is just as insensitive and brash as the American Tele-evangelists'. He reminds me of Phillip Pullman, who likes to rant and rave about the subversive and insidious religious nature of C.S Lewis' 'Narnia' novels whilst writing a virulently ideological series of his own; and both reflect the current antipathy between 'academia' and the religious which I deplore.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 18:12   #60
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Prior to the 20th century it was all much better. The clergy were batshit insane mostly and much the better for it. This recent fiasco of attempting to find meaning in things is really just a dreadful distraction from the pursuit of the utterly daft.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:47   #61
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
I happen to think the idea of mysterious pseudo-gene thingies that transmit certain cultural fallibilities (like belief in God) is just about as absurd and as far from science as you think (perhaps justifiably - I do not know enough to judge) ID is.
So, what studies into the existance (or non-existance) of memetics have you done, and when will you be publishing your results?
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:48   #62
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So, what studies into the existance (or non-existance) of memetics have you done, and when will you be publishing your results?
You misspelt existence. Hay I just MrLed MrL
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 19:55   #63
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

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You misspelt existence. Hay I just MrLed MrL
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 20:02   #64
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So, what studies into the existance (or non-existance) of memetics have you done, and when will you be publishing your results?
More to the point, what studies has Dawkins done? I've read this.
In any case, Dawkins is as rabid a polemicist as they come, and I dislike that.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 20:15   #65
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
More to the point, what studies has Dawkins done? I've read this.
That I can't say offhand, but maybe you should start by arguing with the published scientists in the field. The people at the Journal of Memetics might be a good start.

Furthermore, quoting books isn't a particularly good argument. I can quote books which say that Elvis is alive, that God is dead, that Jesus never existed, but that doesn't make them true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
In any case, Dawkins is as rabid a polemicist as they come, and I dislike that.
I would argue that it is not Dawkins who courts controversy, it is people like the ID crowd who force Dawkins into a position where he has to create controversy to publicise scientific truth, and the nature of things like ID.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 20:21   #66
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Furthermore, quoting books isn't a particularly good argument. I can quote books which say that Elvis is alive, that God is dead, that Jesus never existed, but that doesn't make them true.
What made you think it was an 'argument'? I simply agree with what the book suggests: that the theory of memetics is essentially groundless and that Dawkins has foregone scientific principles in favour of sensationalism.
Why not read the book rather than denouncing it prematurely? Then you could instigate a discussion properly, perhaps.
Quote:
I would argue that it is not Dawkins who courts controversy, it is people like the ID crowd who force Dawkins into a position where he has to create controversy to publicise scientific truth, and the nature of things like ID.
'Religion makes good people evil'. Wasn't that one of Dawkins' recent 'arguments'? It's very silly. I don't care if he's on some kind of scientific crusade, he should have the brains to know when something is so utterly stupid and compromising.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 20:37   #67
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
What made you think it was an 'argument'?
The way you quoted it to support your proposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
I simply agree with what the book suggests: that the theory of memetics is essentially groundless and that Dawkins has foregone scientific principles in favour of sensationalism.
Why not read the book rather than denouncing it prematurely? Then you could instigate a discussion properly, perhaps.
I don't actually have time for reading at the moment, it's very sad. However, I do note that it was supported on that amazon link by S. Conway Morris, who is utterly demented, and tends to argue with things because he doesn't like the person who proposed it, not because he disagrees with the arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
'Religion makes good people evil'. Wasn't that one of Dawkins' recent 'arguments'?
No, actually. His suggestion was that religion is a powerful force to make good people do evil things, and yet have them think that they are doing good. There are a staggering number of examples of these down the years, I won't insult your intelligence by actually quoting any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
It's very silly. I don't care if he's on some kind of scientific crusade, he should have the brains to know when something is so utterly stupid and compromising.
That's strange, I thought that argument (from "The Root of All Evil?") was fairly straight-forward, or even trivial. Of course, I try to not bring up things unless I'm fairly confident I can argue my position, something you don't appear to be accomplishing.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 21:05   #68
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The way you quoted it to support your proposition.
I quoted it to show that I wasn't writing from a completely uninformed perspective. That I have read something is in no way an 'argument' in itself.

Quote:
No, actually. His suggestion was that religion is a powerful force to make good people do evil things, and yet have them think that they are doing good. There are a staggering number of examples of these down the years, I won't insult your intelligence by actually quoting any.
This is silly.

One (obvious, if I may so so) problem with this argument is that it allows for practically anything to be bandied as the 'root of all evil'. Capitalism? Football? Love? Patriotism? Anti-Semetism? Science? The list goes on.

Moreover, how does Dawkins define a 'good' person and 'evil' person?

All Dawkins seems to be pointing out is that people occasionally do bad things and mistakenly think that they are doing good things; and that sometimes religion is a catalyst. That people make mistakes is obvious, and is in fact one of the central tenets of Christianity. All religions are inherently a human structures to some extent, and all are fallible as such. However, religion is not the 'root of all evil', by any means; nor is it sensible to label some people innately 'good' and others evil'.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 21:11   #69
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

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Originally Posted by Boogster
This is silly.
Indeed it is, given that you fairly obviously haven't seen the program in question, as your continued use of the "root of all evil" shows.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 21:20   #70
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Indeed it is, given that you fairly obviously haven't seen the program in question, as your continued use of the "root of all evil" shows.
So I was mistaken? A program entitled 'the root of all evil' was not in fact discussing the 'root of all evil' but the 'root of some evil'?

Heh. You're right, I needn't have bothered. What a boring program it must have been.
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Unread 26 Jan 2006, 21:32   #71
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Re: Even the Vatican say Intelligent Design is a load of crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
So I was mistaken? A program entitled 'the root of all evil' was not in fact discussing the 'root of all evil' but the 'root of some evil'?

Heh. You're right, I needn't have bothered. What a boring program it must have been.
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Don't try rhetoric. You're not very good at it.

[edit]

My, the rendering of that is a curious artifact!

[edit2]

You're not going to bother replying? Oh no, all my intellectual stimulation will VANISH INSTANTLY!

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 26 Jan 2006 at 21:41.
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