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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 08:38   #1
s|k
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I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

What do you guys think? I hate wealth. I have made arguments for capitalism (I like gadgets), but maybe I'm willing to throw that out the window after standing in line waiting to have my baggage checked at LAX. The difference between the rich and the poor just stood out dramatically to me. (The fact that first class ticket holders got to go in front of a one hour long line probably had something to do with it). It's just sick that people pay $3,000 for a Luis Vuitton bag when they can have a similar quality bag for without a brand name for much much less and feed 50 families for like a year through oxfam.

After the LAX experience and watching people in fine designer coats and great skin and beautiful luggage getting to step in front of the disheveled crowd of coach ticket holders I took the city bus from the airport home (with my wife, I'm married!). The people on that bus were such a dramatic different slice of life. The bus stopped outside of a prison and someone who had just gotten out got in with his cardboard box of belongings. He sat next to another guy who after listening to their conversation had been in prison at sometime too. Those guys left and then some other people got on the bus and talked about a person they both knew from a drug rehab program they had been too. The were, in their own words, 'glad to be above ground, and thank the lord Jesus everyday.'

I want to become a librarian and help people. I want to spread literacy, make information freely available, I want to help troubled youth and people in prison make something worthwhile of their lives. I am also thinking of joining the Communist Party right now. Maybe that's a phase, but wanting to help people isn't. I will do that.

Here's a link to the Communist Party of the USA's FAQ: http://www.cpusa.org/article/static/511/#question26 (kind of interesting).
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 10:39   #2
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Before you wonder further into the world of theories, social developments and differences, ask yourself the following questions:

You do realize what Communism is?
Can you mention me one nation where the 'communistic expiriment' worked?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 10:46   #3
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Just let him experience this phase Theamion
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 11:00   #4
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion
You do realize what Communism is?
Do you?

Anyway, s|k, obviously trying new things is generally a positive step and if approached correctly this would help you as a human being on a number of levels. However, I would say that you will probably find the following if you did join any Communist Party :

1. A great many of them are obsessed with theory, not action.

2. Most are obsessed with navel gazing "the left" in general. The schisms between the various micro parties fills many pages of their publications. You know that bit in Life of Brian where the "People's Front of Judea" are obsessed with the "Judean's People's Front"? That is the left. And it's not even an exaggeration.

3. Some of their politics has been unduly influenced by paranoia. It is true that far-left parties have faced near continual attacks from the 30's right up to the demise of the USSR. This is documented quite openly by bourgeoisie sources. However, the reaction has often been to stifle debate, have closed publications, limited internal democracy, etc. In other words, precisely the wrong response. Sometimes they will have ludicrous internal authoritarianism like "We don't really want comrades to see x or y particular film" which would be laughable if some didn't take it seriously.

4. They are obsessed with the past. Entire parties will be split over whether the USSR was a "state capitalist economy" or "degenerated workers state" or something else. While reflecting on these things is fairly important, does it really matter at this point in history what terms we use?

5. Many of them have disproportionate amounts of cranks, weirdo's and crazies. This is true of any social movement on the outskirts, and has been worsened by the lack of external debate some of these people get. It's probably not as bad these days, but a lot of people on the far left have only had serious discussions with other people on the far left or trolls on alt.politics.socialism.trotsky (read that if you want some of the worst drivel ever written, if it still exists).

And I say all this as someone who would call himself a Communist.

You're probably better of joining a loose-knit community group, or green party or something like that. The official parties are still all a bit rubbish for now.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 12:24   #5
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

wont work, people by their very nature are too greedy (it is part of why we are a successful species)

people dont want to live for the common good because they all want the best and there isnt enough to match our greed (i will have five hundred million pairs of jimmy choos my good man and make it snappy)
so you have to force them, which means someone must be in charge,
which leads to corruption and general misery amoung the population.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 12:42   #6
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

"i'm pondering about joining some neonazi party, because German highways are the best invention since sliced bread!"
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 12:49   #7
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Exclamation Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
If you are referring to the Soviet Union or China, well it has been demonstrated at length on these forums and elsewhere that this is a bastardization of Communism and in fact Stalinism has much more in common with fascism than the works of Marx.
Unfortunately this ignores the simple fact that Lenin grounded his theory solidly in Marx's writings. And Stalinism was simply the genocidal extension of the system Lenin (And Trotsky, by the way) had been pivotal in establishing.

You call it "bastardisation"; I call it legitimate (Albeit horribly mistaken) interpretation.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:24   #8
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Unfortunately this ignores the simple fact that Lenin grounded his theory solidly in Marx's writings.

And Stalinism was simply the genocidal extension of the system Lenin (And Trotsky, by the way) had been pivotal in establishing.
Using this sort of "logic" we could probably blame Darwin for NAZI'ism or something equally absurd.

Even by your usual (dreadful) standard of anti-Communist posts, this is below par.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:45   #9
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

In Soviet Russia, dna modifies you!
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 14:00   #10
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Forgive my naivness and overriding lack of knowledge before i start.

Personally, i admire the ideals of marxism / communism and think they have a lot to teach us. If nothing else, marxism's enduring use (imo) is to remind us of the scale of the differences between the rich and poor, and remind us of the inequality of the system as a whole. I do personally believe that capitalism is (perhaps) unsustainable and (definitely) self-combusting - you only have to walk down a street to see the differences between rich and poor.

Anyone who claims capitalism is a system of oppurtunity is wide of the mark and/or middle class. But for my two-cents, i'd have to say that communism/marxism is not a system of incentive. I appreciate your predominantly positive views of human nature dante/toccata but my experience of human life is that any a "desire for the common good" doesnt really exist.

Indeed, the saddest thing for me, is seeing all those who are crushed by the system, poor, struggling to get by - instead of a desire to see a fairer system, they desire to be at the other end of it.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 14:40   #11
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

I don't think I've read any Marx beyond some social theory stuff, the only explicit economics I read have been browsing through 'The Wealth of Nations' which is probably a few centuries out of date..I don't need a formal education in economics to see a disparity in the lives of people. I think that disparity is a more than just a lapse of judgement. I also believe that it is avoidable.

Beyond voting and writing a few letters to politicans every now and then I'm not very politically active, I'm not looking to participate in activism, but I'm willing to at least support a cause that does more than just acknowledge the extent of inequity. I think support can go along way...
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 15:19   #12
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Support can go a long way. But, don't you think in order to change things it would be better if individuals start from themselves. Isn't this what we need as a response to the world of war against all. Revolution in attitude, thinking, feeling, relating, in other words, revolution in brains are the only things that can ensure the continuity of any actual change, or to bring it about in the first place.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:13   #13
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charjerk
Support can go a long way. But, don't you think in order to change things it would be better if individuals start from themselves. Isn't this what we need as a response to the world of war against all. Revolution in attitude, thinking, feeling, relating, in other words, revolution in brains are the only things that can ensure the continuity of any actual change, or to bring it about in the first place.
I just want equitable access to resources, and an educated, democratic and classless society.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:29   #14
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
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I just want equitable access to resources, and an educated, democratic and classless society.
why?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:32   #15
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Awareness is not enough. What is required is constructive self-criticism and criticism. I belive that revolution in mind has to go hand in hand with changes in the real world. I don't know a lot about its Hegelian aspect, but I agree that revolution in heads would only be one sided solution. Simultaneous change must be the solution. Lets face it. It is individuals, the whole society that keeps this system in its place. Are we not all tainted. Life is a fight. I don't think it is possible to talk about individual freedom or non-freedom. Our existence is all about a struggle to breath in the space of freedom that we created for ourselves again through struggle, and at the same time try to enlarge that sphere.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:32   #16
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

i'm curious. as far as i can tell from your previous posts, part of communism is that everyone has an equal say in how things are run.

this would seem to require an awful lot of voting. how do you facilitate the voting of millions of people on every issue? also, who decides what the issues are? how do you stop a comunist 'government' from stalling under the weight of ammendments and attachments to things being voted on?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:33   #17
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Lets assume (for fun) that you have thought about this answer to some degree and haven't just given the first answer that came into your head.
... I assume you are not asserting that we are living in a corruption free, non-authoritarian society where no one is miserable.
you must have an awful lot of spare time to write all that in the middle of the day. i didnt bother explaining the background to my thoughts as i am to busy earning a living so that i can buy shoes and handbags.

people are corrupt and greedy and grabbing and manipulative and quite a lot would happily trample their granny for a louis vuitton handbag, and there are plenty who would wipe out a city or country or race to control their resources.
humans arent very nice to each other, what do you propose to do with us horrid people in your star trek everyone working for the common good world?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:34   #18
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I want to become a librarian and help people. I want to spread literacy, make information freely available, I want to help troubled youth and people in prison make something worthwhile of their lives. I am also thinking of joining the Communist Party right now. Maybe that's a phase, but wanting to help people isn't. I will do that.)
Why don't you just join a decent charity

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
humans arent very nice to each other, what do you propose to do with us horrid people in your star trek everyone working for the common good world?
Help you.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:40   #19
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

thus far, madi seems to have a fair point, somewhere in the overstatement

is it not human nature to want more at the expense of others?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:42   #20
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

s|k,
Sometimes its eerie that you are american.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:42   #21
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
thus far, madi seems to have a fair point, somewhere in the overstatement

is it not human nature to want more at the expense of others?
Is it not human nature to help each other?


Phrases like "human nature" are silly and apply some bizzare continuity over thousands of years and generalise far too much to actually mean anything.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:44   #22
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

depends. to help the 'clan' possibly, to help total strangers, i'd say not particularly. unless there's something in it of course.

in this case, i meant human nature in the "if you got a load of people and ask them what they'd do, this would be the predominant answer" type way, only cutting out all the lying and the people giving the 'correct' answer
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:47   #23
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by mist
depends. to help the 'clan' possibly, to help total strangers, i'd say not particularly. unless there's something in it of course.
What about the people who donated millions for tsunami victims?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:47   #24
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Human nature is our ability to set and create our own needs and believes.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:48   #25
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
people are corrupt and greedy and grabbing and manipulative and quite a lot would happily trample their granny for a louis vuitton handbag, and there are plenty who would wipe out a city or country or race to control their resources.
humans arent very nice to each other, what do you propose to do with us horrid people in your star trek everyone working for the common good world?
There is no reason to be surprised. What else did you expect? We are living in a class based, non-egalitarian society. The horrid elements dig their own graves. History is the best witness.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:48   #26
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
What about the people who donated millions for tsunami victims?
any idea what percentage of the population donated? (i don't, btw)
how many of those who did donate did so to make themselves feel better?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:49   #27
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
depends. to help the 'clan' possibly, to help total strangers, i'd say not particularly. unless there's something in it of course.
People give money to charity ever year. Saying there's "something in it" is confusing the point. Logically speaking nobody chooses to do anything which they don't want to do (it's tautological dude!)

Quote:
in this case, i meant human nature in the "if you got a load of people and ask them what they'd do, this would be the predominant answer" type way, only cutting out all the lying and the people giving the 'correct' answer
You have to give circumstances though. Also it depends on the people you survey.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:54   #28
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by mist
any idea what percentage of the population donated? (i don't, btw)
how many of those who did donate did so to make themselves feel better?
Generally, you can't count "to make me feel better" as a reason to do something. I naturally want to feel good helping someone. I wouldn't feel good helping someone rob a bank.
I doubt someone took percentages, but I do know that several million was donated, and thats a lot.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:54   #29
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
People give money to charity ever year. Saying there's "something in it" is confusing the point. Logically speaking nobody chooses to do anything which they don't want to do (it's tautological dude!)
oh, i agree with you. there are people who give money to charity every year. there are people who give huge amounts. there are people who do it because they think it's the right thing to do, there are people who do it because they want to do it. my point is that i don't believe the latter catagory are in the majority, and i think they would have to be for communism (at least, my understanding of communism - which is admittedly failrly limited) to work.


Quote:
You have to give circumstances though. Also it depends on the people you survey.
i was assuming the various statistical proprioties were in place.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:55   #30
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by mist
how many of those who did donate did so to make themselves feel better?
On some level, all of them. What on Earth difference does that make?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:57   #31
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Generally, you can't count "to make me feel better" as a reason to do something. I naturally want to feel good helping someone. I wouldn't feel good helping someone rob a bank.
i'd have felt "to make me feel better" as a fairly key reason for doing things. infact, i'd say most of the other reasons for doing things boil down to it if you try hard enough.

Quote:
I doubt someone took percentages, but I do know that several million was donated, and thats a lot.
i doubt it too. however, with 60M people ish in the country it's not that much really. i seem to remember us giving a billion a year extra to the eu this week (?) compared to that, several million is peanuts.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:59   #32
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
On some level, all of them. What on Earth difference does that make?
i find that people's motives are often as important as their actions, particularly if you're trying to use one of their actions to predict others.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:02   #33
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
oh, i agree with you. there are people who give money to charity every year. there are people who give huge amounts. there are people who do it because they think it's the right thing to do, there are people who do it because they want to do it. my point is that i don't believe the latter catagory are in the majority, and i think they would have to be for communism (at least, my understanding of communism - which is admittedly failrly limited) to work.
People giving money to charity because they think it's the right thing to do and people who give money to charity because they want to do it are the same category of people dude.


Quote:
i was assuming the various statistical proprioties were in place.
Actually you'd probably have to survey everyone in the world. And you have to have an actual question with actual circumstances. A lot of people would give different answers to would you download music from the internet (or would you take a fiver from some random rich guy) and would steal a loaf of bread from a starving family.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:05   #34
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by mist
i find that people's motives are often as important as their actions, particularly if you're trying to use one of their actions to predict others.
Yes but in this context what you're basically saying is "People don't help others unless they have reasons to" which is infuriatingly obvious.

"Self-interest" and "the common good" are not at odds with each other, as has been said numerous times. This, in fact is the principle behind most human arrangements (including funnily enough, markets!). I spend time with my friends because I enjoy it. They also enjoy it. Everyone benefits. The reason why Madi's point (which boils down to "people aren't perfect") is irrelevent because no-one is claiming people have to behave in a superhuman manner for "communism" to work (whatever you're defining that as).

Whether people give to charity because it excites them sexually or whether because they think it's the right thing to do is actually pretty irrelevent - it's actually the same motive, eventually (since "the right thing to do" basically makes them feel better anyway).
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:05   #35
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbg
People giving money to charity because they think it's the right thing to do and people who give money to charity because they want to do it are the same category of people dude.
i disagree. can't think of a good direct example, but an abstract one would be that i got out of bed this morning to come to work because it was the right thing to do, not becuase i wanted to do it.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:09   #36
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by mist
i disagree. can't think of a good direct example, but an abstract one would be that i got out of bed this morning to come to work because it was the right thing to do, not becuase i wanted to do it.
Nah dude. You have to think it's the right thing to do. If you think it's the right thing to do you that's because you have a moral system that indicates that it's the right thing to do. It's enlightened self interest as opposed to unenlightened self interest. We do things we don't enjoy all the time because we believe that the consequences will be positive overall.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:11   #37
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

in a vague effort to pull my thoughts together:

my understanding of communism (which may well be flawed, infact, i'd be surprised if it isn't) stems partially from that infamous quote about each working to their ability and receiving to their needs. for this to happen, people have to be willing to work to their ability in return for the covering of their needs. madi's point that people are basically selfish (and other assorted 'bad' things) implies that this won't work, as they'll either try and do less work, or want more reward, or a combination of the two. as such, this would seem a problem. just because morally providing for everyone makes sense doesn't mean that people will do it, or agree with your morals.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:12   #38
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

in fact we have the society we have because of Capitalism.[/quote]

Actually, Marx says the opposite.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:14   #39
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nah dude. You have to think it's the right thing to do. If you think it's the right thing to do you that's because you have a moral system that indicates that it's the right thing to do. It's enlightened self interest as opposed to unenlightened self interest. We do things we don't enjoy all the time because we believe that the consequences will be positive overall.
i did think it was the right thing to do, however had you shown up and offered me an extra hour in bed (oo er missis?) than i'd have been a happy bunny at 7:30 this morning
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:17   #40
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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i did think it was the right thing to do, however had you shown up and offered me an extra hour in bed (oo er missis?) than i'd have been a happy bunny at 7:30 this morning
Indeed I am sure you would have. However the fact that reality is sometimes unpleasant does not mean that the concept of free will is null and void.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:22   #41
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

depends if you take the view that all of our decisions are dictated by genetics and/or previous experience and are therefore predictable given enough information - but that's rather an asside.

i'm not quite sure what bearing your point has on my assertion that there's a difference between feeling you have to do something and wanting to do it? i could have wanted to get up because i look forward to getting to work (yeah, right! )
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:24   #42
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Its like I wrote a bunch of stuff and you didn't even read it. Basic literacy is a pre-requisite to this sort of discussion honey. Where's your evidence? Where have I asserted that people have to be different than you say?

I am at work but its quiet and this is a well rehearsed response to the same tired cliche's.

I neve said that people were all nice to each other, I have no problem with horrid people, I don't consider myself to be any less horrid than enyone else.
i didnt respond fully to your long winded reply as i didnt do more than skim through it, and as it would appear to be a knee jerk well rehearsed response it would seem that i decided right.

my opinion is that communism is against human nature, which i havent backed up with evidence as i couldnt be arsed to write it down as i am too busy being rovolted by the grubby masses and buying shoes.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:27   #43
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
my understanding of communism (which may well be flawed, infact, i'd be surprised if it isn't) stems partially from that infamous quote about each working to their ability and receiving to their needs. for this to happen, people have to be willing to work to their ability in return for the covering of their needs. madi's point that people are basically selfish (and other assorted 'bad' things) implies that this won't work, as they'll either try and do less work, or want more reward, or a combination of the two. as such, this would seem a problem. just because morally providing for everyone makes sense doesn't mean that people will do it, or agree with your morals.
We've discussed this various times on this forum, but essentially one can say the following :

1. How people behave now is not necessarily how they'd behave in different circumstances. This is a truism of course, but if we look at prior civilisations (or different cultures) people behave in entirely different fashions, depending on the social/economic system in place. So it is difficult to look at how people behave under capitalism and then abstract that to how they'd behave under post-capitalism.

2. Having said that, it's clear there are probably enduring traits in human behaviour (possibly based on evolution, or just byproducts of our biology, whatever). This is basically what's being alleged here - that people are "selfish". OK, fair dues - but what do we mean by this?

So far people seem to say "People will do things in their own personal interest". But then we also seem to be saying that people are also capable of helping others (e.g. their families, clans, or friends). There are even examples where people help complete strangers of different ethnicities/cultures/etc, when they feel like it. Which kind of weakens the whole use of the word "selfish".

Will there be people who want more physical possessions in an alternate society? Almost certainly. Does that matter particularly? Not really. It's easy to imagine a variety of systems where people could have incentives / disincentives from certain behaviour - this is an iron rule of society, I'd say. But these aren't things we're going to somehow project out of the mind, there'd need to be a wide range of social experimentation I'd wager.

People seem to have some ridiculously simplistic notion of how social change would or might operate. As if one day all the shops would stop paying their workers and giving their produce for free and then be surprised when everything collapsed. Shockingly, that's not quite how things would work.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:40   #44
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
depends if you take the view that all of our decisions are dictated by genetics and/or previous experience and are therefore predictable given enough information - but that's rather an asside.
If we are not the summation of our genes and our experiences I don't know what we are.

Quote:
i'm not quite sure what bearing your point has on my assertion that there's a difference between feeling you have to do something and wanting to do it? i could have wanted to get up because i look forward to getting to work (yeah, right! )
You only feel you have to do something because you want to do something else. Say that I want a chocolate bar but I don't want to reach out and get it from the table four feet away from me. One of those desires is going to override the other one and I'm either not going to get it or I'm going to get it. The fact that sometimes our desires clash is really irrelevant. We do things because "in totality" we wanted to do them.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:44   #45
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by madi
i didnt respond fully to your long winded reply as i didnt do more than skim through it, and as it would appear to be a knee jerk well rehearsed response it would seem that i decided right.

my opinion is that communism is against human nature, which i havent backed up with evidence as i couldnt be arsed to write it down as i am too busy being rovolted by the grubby masses and buying shoes.
This is incorrect simply from an evolutionary standpoint. True story.

Society is obviously based on more than a system of just greed - the selfish gene is obviously in operation, kin selection, whatever.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:59   #46
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
This is incorrect simply from an evolutionary standpoint. True story.

Society is obviously based on more than a system of just greed - the selfish gene is obviously in operation, kin selection, whatever.
its more than just any one thing that made us take over the planet, we have thumbs for a start.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 18:12   #47
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by madi
its more than just any one thing that made us take over the planet, we have thumbs for a start.
All land plants are monophyletic.

True, but not related at all to the post I'm replying to.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 18:12   #48
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Care to elaborate.

"The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk"
Very interesting!

As I said, I don't know much about Hegel. But I guess the above quote means that human actions do not come about authomatically, naturally. It is the accumulation of experience, knowledge and therefore escalation of consciousness that prepares the terrain for the owl to spread its wings. Or can something get better before getting worst! That is the way Marx looked at the matter I believe.

I would be interested in the ways in which that quote can be used to explain the movements of human consciousness.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 18:28   #49
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

It doesn't sound like you need to be a communist.

There's no need to commit to a pseudo-utopian fantasy just to make your distaste of inequality public. Politics muddles matters.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 19:22   #50
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Re: I'm thinking about joining the Communist Party

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well indeed. You sound like my ex-fiance.
Thanks. although it is not very encouraging to sound like somebody's ex. Well... I am a Marxian who had to know about Hegel too.

Sorry to cause bad memories to surface, mate.
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