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Unread 25 Jul 2008, 19:15   #1
Prover
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G to the De-tox

I hope you enjoy my next attempt to purge this place of its ugliness.

Purpose: To (a) share my spiritual experiences, (b) learn in an open-minded environment, (c) practice my evangelicalism.

This will facilitate a holistic approach to understanding the big picture, though we can't fully understand it during our time. It is a paradox to be thinking in 4D. Yet we can infer within our limits some of what it entails. The more we look at paradoxes the more we come to the ineffable, and vice versa. Modern thought has mostly been dualistic as a result of what was normally 3D-thinking (modern science approves this with innumerable evidence), but now it is expanding outward as we pervade the scope of time (as a continuous spectrum). A most illustrative method is to combine the 3 general aspects we see of life into one. It's supposed to become an image of order and simplicity in your mind...

The following 3 categories include: Art, Science, & Religion - Each of these are important to an extent in our lives (the whole of humanity). My hypothesis is that all these paths in life search for the same thing.

1. There is art: Why?

Nature makes its own art (as science suggests), objectively; we tap into nature to bring out its art, subjectively. Art usually provokes an emotional response by utilizing a shift in the focus between simple and un-simple things by putting them in and out of context. This spawns pattern, symmetry, irony, ambiguity, etc - all the aesthetics. If you think about why a big twist at the end of a movie gives us a shock, it's because of a suspension of belief, or a shift of context. On a larger scale, everything we do and create is a work of art on some level. "Art for art's sake" is partly bullsh*t. The very fact that art feels a need to become more sophisticated and interesting over time is a hint to the underlying concept that art seeks for a purpose. Thus, art contains objective light.

When we look at many self-proclaimed "artistic" people, we find a very spiritual quality that has come to be implied with a figurative heart and soul. This type of person probably knows about the paradox seen at the root of our feelings. They have seen a seemingly love-hate duality, until they finally recognized it as it truly was, as a love versus fear scenario (or love with its back turned). Call it the "logic" of love, or in any manner, but both men and women have been putting up with it since Adam and Eve. To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love.

2. There is science: Why?

"Cogito, ergo sum." All of science is trying to formulate a complete response to this most fundamental proposition on the philosophy of knowledge. We might be able to infer that we exist, but 'why?' is still the lingering question. So rather than only speculating and reacting with our imagination, we mix it up by investigating natural and material substances where our actions and reality take form. Our logic has been reduced to binary distinctions, and to avoid the dualistic quarrel, further to probabilistic relations. Scientists are trying desperately to reduce the paradox of our overextended 4D-vision into worldly knowledge. This brings about a progressive, if not positive, light into science.

People have realized a body of knowledge through interpretation of their experiences. As a result of this understanding, people feel a sense of power that comes with it. This energy, if you will, is what makes us apply our education in the world and in society, as we feel a sense of responsibility for bringing it about. (It also seems related to the influx we notice at the subatomic level). But the important point here is that we seek advancement because it gives us more confidence and assurance in our lives. The ultimate goal is to find out what is really true. We look at the most basic feature we know of the universe, light, and in between try to uncover both its beginning and its destination. Therein lies the answer to universal truth.

3. There is religion: Why?

Religion is more of an intermediary aspect than the more polarized aspects of art and science. It is correlated to many pursuits in both the arts and sciences. And despite its interdisciplinary nature, it has the most simplistic approach to living life. This peace of mind that religious faith brings to an individual is more than just reassurance they will prevail in the end. It acts as motivation to go on living a balanced and healthy lifestyle (an art to living, so to say, with the aid of science).

Historically, the basis of religion has provided a mosaic of cultures and traditions, churches and synagogues. The emphasis has not only been on personal development, but on building stronger communities and developing social life. Given these missions, religions hope to unite people together so we can live in peace, if not harmony. Even though churches may turn dogma into distraction, there's no denying they help to set priorities in life toward charities, families, friends, and most importantly, unto God.

[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]

I. Summary

a + 1, b + 2, c + 3, ...

Art ~ Love
Science ~ Truth
Religion ~ God

Love = Truth = God

That is my proposition, no joke.

Go ahead and make jokes about my sentiments on this kind of forum, if you feel like it, but it just so happens that that's what's new around here. If you try to subdue your machismo for the time being you might just get some of the picture.

Last edited by Prover; 16 Aug 2008 at 11:11.
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Unread 25 Jul 2008, 19:17   #2
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Re: G to the De-tox

II. Other questions

Why do things seem paradoxical and dualistic?

The best hypothesis I have is an analogy with the classic male-female duality. The differences between men and women provide us with the most comprehensive profile of a paradox in history. Orthodoxy views the male as the first human being followed by the female. But however they both came to be, it was likely from the separation of One into two. I think that split is what caused an inherent dualistic quality into our nature. We see the obvious signs now with how females are more oriented toward art while males are more oriented toward science.

A good analogy is a psychological experiment that is done on children's habits when they're playing with toy cars and trucks. On average, little Susie drives them along nice and carefully, while little Joey goes speeding along and crashing. When you think about it, it's not hard to see that a lot of hashing between order and chaos is contributed to the different sexes. It's actually common sense to someone whose experienced an in-depth relationship with an opposing sex. Like Einstein said, "when the solution is simple, God is answering."

This type of sexism is a fundamental concept to understanding nature. We learn a lot from the general discrepancies we see between males and females. And a lot of our problems in the world seem to be a problem with misunderstanding that of sentimentalism, which is an underlying barrier to communication.


Why do we see these 3 essences in life converging toward one goal?

I believe I know the answer, as it relates to both art, science, and religion...the pursuit of Love/Truth/God is more important than any of our other creative/scientific/religious freedoms. Indeed, this truth sets us free. It does put a strain on things, and makes it feel like a detox is needed. It also brings connotations to postmodernist thinking, renaissance ideals, and spiritual philosophy, among lots of things. It's probably why we see a sarcastic tone when things get deviated from Truth. This makes sense because only One is completely serious in the end. Our endeavors should strive to bring our ignorance to terms with our unwavering principles (of our faith). Or else, our time is just spent joking around and having fun. The motto I go by which seems to bring success: "moderation is key," as often said.

On a related note, the humble philanthropist and big-thinker, Sir John Templeton just died recently at age 95. Or rather, I should say, he fulfilled his life at age 95.

Last edited by Prover; 28 Jan 2014 at 05:13. Reason: embarrassment and unquoted
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 13:47   #3
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
Orthodoxy views the male as the first human being followed by the female. But however they both came to be, it was likely from the separation of One into two. I think that split is what caused an inherent dualistic quality into our nature.
that's funny because it's actually dualism that's fuelling your belief in adam and eve in the first place
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 15:06   #4
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Re: G to the De-tox

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that's funny because it's actually dualism that's fuelling your belief in adam and eve in the first place
No, it would unequivocally be monoism in the first place, as I ascribed to many times as "One". Even though I was using dualism for a simplistic approach at times (I made some errors and I explained as such), I thought it was pretty clear I'm a proponent of pluralism.

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Originally Posted by horn View Post
(i skimmed most i'm afraid)
...
sorry, i missed this bit.
You obviously missed a lot in skimming over the replies because I corrected the relationship as Love ~ Art, from being in reverse. I use '~' to signify an implication/approximation. I try to not conclude anything about causation, and what I've mostly provided is based on correlations. Also, it was clearly stated as a proposition (or hypothesis) based strictly on historical and statistical premises.

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The reason why it's hard to know what you mean by 3D thinking is because of what you go on to describe 4D thinking as.
At first I assumed that by 3D thought, you meant thought that was concerned with sense data we receive from the conventional 3 dimensions that we know of. But then when you mention 4D thinking, you don't seem to be referring to the conventional idea of 4 dimensions (3 spacial dimensions + time). You seem to be referring to the fourth dimension as some convoluted synthesis of art, science and religion.

Do you see why none of this makes sense to someone who isn't living in your head?
I have painstakingly seen it. It's called a communication gap. It's exactly why I started at a foundation, as such, so you could follow along with my thought process. In not paying close enough attention, having skimmed over my responses, how are you helping the situation? It's not just a problem between me and GD. It's a universal problem between people who share different levels of sentiments, irregardless of intellectual ability (I am clearly one who favors the multiple intelligences theory). Science ignores it by being strictly objective, while art is relatively more subjective. I have specifically referred to this as a 'spiritual' discussion, limited to neither science nor art.

It's good to meet you horn, but you really have no idea what I said, do you? Because you missed the most important point about the difference between 3D- and 4D-thinking. Most of my reasoning is based off the idea that our universe is embedded with a probabilistic nature that intersects two poles. This is not dualistic thinking except in the simplistic sense of language/logic in our 3D environment, so I clearly refer to it as a paradox. When transcending into 4D territory, which is relative to space-time, we also see a paradox on a much grander scale. That is more so involved with a distinction we see between pluralism and monoism. All the latest research in science is trying to bridge this gap with their very large telescopes and their large particle accelerators.

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not as you experience it buddy
Love is not true as I experience it? Here we've reached an irreconcilable difference. Love, not just sex, is the most sensational thing that exists to me. So I will stand on my experience of this truth. (Yes, the females are getting to me).

Last edited by Prover; 28 Jul 2008 at 15:57.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:05   #5
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
No,
yes. the form of religion is called monoism. but the reason why you believe in such crap is because you have a dualistic world outlook and hence have bought into monoism to legitimise and formalise your belief in things like souls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
I thought it was pretty clear I'm a proponent of pluralism.
no. what's pretty clear is that you are trying to categorise everything as some tangential offshoot of love/truth/god. that isn't pluralism, that's reductionism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
You obviously missed a lot in skimming over the replies because I corrected the relationship as Love ~ Art. I use '~' to signify an implication/approximation. I try to not conclude anything about causation, and what I've mostly provided is based on correlations. It was clearly a proposition (or hypothesis) as well.
if the the sequence of words isn't used to imply causation, then why does your "correction" (i.e. you switching the words around) mean anything?

it also seemed pretty clear cut when you said "To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love."

If you have decided that it really is just a correlation rather than causation between love and art, then what does it really mean? people feel love and sometimes express that through art? unless you stick to what you were earlier saying and instead decide to rest on "sometimes art has kind of something to do with love", it's pretty meaningless. so what if it does? it also has stuff to do with other feelings.

[quote=prover
(I am clearly one who favors the multiple intelligences theory). Science ignores it by being strictly objective, while art is relatively more subjective. I have specifically referred to this as a 'spiritual' discussion, limited to neither science nor art. [/quote]
No one's saying discussions on art are devoid of intelligence. It's just that your pretentious ramblings about the relationship between love and art aren't transcendent realisations, but rather ill thought out bullshit.


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Originally Posted by prover
It's good to meet you horn, but you really have no idea what I said, do you? Because you missed the most important point about the difference between 3D- and 4D-thinking.
did you miss the bit where i asked you to define what they meant? you can use my suggestions of what they might mean as a template!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
Most of my reasoning is based off the idea that our universe is embedded with a probabilistic nature that intersects two poles. This is not dualistic thinking except in the simplistic sense of language/logic in our 3D environment, so I clearly refer to it as a paradox.
This doesn't make sense to me in any way. Please can you use one of the earlier listed phenomena to help explain via example what it is you mean. If i may pick one off the list, i would rather quantum mechanics. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
When transcending into 4D territory, which is relative to space-time,
do you actually mean relative to space-time, or just space-time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
we also see a paradox on a much grander scale.
what paradox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
That is more so involved with a distinction we see between pluralism and monoism.
what's more involved with this distinction? the paradox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
All the latest research in science is trying to bridge this gap with their very large telescopes and large particle accelerators.
is the paradox you're talking about quantum theory and general relativity? (that's what the guys behind the telescopes call it)
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:38   #6
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Re: G to the De-tox

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no. what's pretty clear is that you are trying to categorise everything as some tangential offshoot of love/truth/god. that isn't pluralism, that's reductionism.
How is it possible not to categorize at some point? If you give no meaning to the term pluralism (which is itself a category), then I would say reductionism is really the endless deconstruction of ideas (that you are exhibiting). Again, you avoid some of my earlier remarks on this account.

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did you miss the bit where i asked you to define what they meant?
You haven't exhibited any attempt to give meaning to my statements with your destructive tendency. Meaning is essentially a subjective idea. I'm in the middle of trying to 'define' it, can you not see? I would suggest, rather than nit-picking points and stretching out this thread too long, you synthesize a response into a complete paragraph. (To meet me halfway here). That's how people begin to understand things.

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Please can you use one of the earlier listed phenomena to help explain via example what it is you mean. If i may pick one off the list, i would rather quantum mechanics.
If you were at all familiar with quantum mechanics, you would know about its subjective nature given that light behaves as both a wave and a particle. That duality (I like to call it a paradox) is at the physical limits for advancement in science, so probability is used (as 4D-thinking) to bridge this gap in describing nature. (This is also relevantly adopted by meteorologists who are coming to terms with chaos theory in weather predictions). When we go beyond this paradox, we get into purely theoretical grounds. You might escape this paradox by invoking super-strings and a many-worlds hypothesis (so to be physically "objective"), but I would say that that's an infinite reduction in itself, where as my hypothesis is more of a regression. What makes your reduction any better than my more-so regressive approach? Looking in retrospect (at history), we see that our understanding has come from a combination of both these techniques.

Last edited by Prover; 28 Jul 2008 at 17:41.
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Unread 25 Jul 2008, 23:36   #7
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Re: G to the De-tox

honestly horn - just move on
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Unread 26 Jul 2008, 18:25   #8
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Re: G to the De-tox

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honestly horn - just move on
1. Who is horn? Or rather, why do you care about him/her?

2. I'm not just moving on without reflecting on why I'm moving on.

You are being nonsensical here, Yahwe.

Furthermore, I could have focused on many of the negative features above, but instead I choose a positive direction. I think that's moving forward in itself. People consider both pros and cons because they need a binary distinction to help their brains out. Then hopefully they recognize that progress is made by correcting wrong things and doing things the right way.


I think my first post is a decent overview of mankind, and how it's headed. (Note: I'm using mostly pattern recognition skills to summarize a lot of history, philosophy, theology, statistics, etc., personal experience.) I'm trying to look at things from multiple perspectives here. If you think I misrepresented a general perspective, or if someone wants to include a new perspective, please explain so. There's always room for constructive responses.

Last edited by Prover; 26 Jul 2008 at 23:00.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 07:31   #9
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover

[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]


what are you doing here then ?
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 11:18   #10
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Re: G to the De-tox

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what are you doing here then ?
I thought my purpose statement was pretty clear. Go back and re-read it, since your question demonstrates the typical lack of understanding from the narrow-minded thinker who zeros in to the point of abstrusity. The true question is what are you doing here? That is, why are you trying to ignore the major thesis of my post by putting things in a negative view? If you have something to contribute, such as qualitative (or quantitative) information, please do so.

Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.

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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 13:42   #11
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Re: G to the De-tox

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I thought my purpose statement was pretty clear. Go back and re-read it, since your question demonstrates the typical lack of understanding from the narrow-minded thinker who zeros in to the point of abstrusity. The true question is what are you doing here? That is, why are you trying to ignore the major thesis of my post by putting things in a negative view? If you have something to contribute, such as qualitative (or quantitative) information, please do so.

Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
To be fair, it is difficult to say anything meaningful or constructive about a "thesis" which is a pile of wank.

While you are sat there typing out your pretentious, unfounded, evangelical tripe, there are children dying of starvation and disease, women being trafficked and forced into prostitution, families and villages being burned off the map by the Burmese junta, children being snatched in their thousands in Africa to be used as labourers, sex-workers, and soldiers... I could go on.

Quote:
I think my first post is a decent overview of mankind
I really disagree. Go and do something more useful with your life. Or at the very least, go and tell this stuff to someone who cares.

Most importantly though, don't reply to me.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 14:51   #12
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Re: G to the De-tox

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To be fair, it is difficult to say anything meaningful or constructive about a "thesis" which is a pile of wank.
Well put.

"Prover" - I don't care how well chosen they are, your words are still empty.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 23:27   #13
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Re: G to the De-tox

Tomkat: my intentions were clearly to spark a healthy debate for those interested in spirituality. Yet, people give me bad rep for being obnoxious or what not. They could have just ignored this post after reading my purposes, if they were not interested, but no.

Deepflow:

You give a valid point of the objective-subjective duality being in terms of 3D-thinking. They are probably interrelated in the 4D sense. I just meant to emphasize a connection between nature and human beings. In my mind, all of our language/logic and creativity is used to simplify things that we have yet to understand. So when referring to those expressions, such as art, I use the term 'un-simple' to be logically consistent. I was using the movie twist because I thought it was an obvious example, so not to get complicated. A more phenomenal example is in regard to the golden ratio. This reoccurring proportion in nature is used in the various arts such architecture, painting, and music to synthesize an essence of symmetry. What's interesting is how science is the polar opposite of art, in general. (Note: the golden ratio is a tool which essentially balances the scientific and artistic aspects). Science is mostly about reductive and deconstructive techniques to make "advancement", while art is more about reconstructive and abstract reflections. That's basically what I was saying about a shift of context. Do you not see what I mean now?

You also highlight something about the significance of art. Whether art seeks a faint purpose or not, I just noticed I was arguing for its relationship with Love precisely backwards. You said, "art for the sake of the good or the beautiful would be a far more popular opinion than some underlying purpose." I would argue that good and beautiful stem from something much more immense. That is love. Love brings about art. You cannot argue with that. I know many different emotions also bring about art, but my emphasis is on love. I would say this is a most common theme in artistic circles. It also relates nicely to the paradox I explained at the root of our feelings with love. I am aware of my generalizations, but there is no other way to build a short account of my reflections.

Telcontar: my words are not empty to yours truly.

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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 18:35   #14
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
...


edit
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Originally Posted by Prover
You haven't exhibited any attempt to give meaning to my statements
...
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 13:29   #15
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Re: G to the De-tox

Your purpose (summarised in the second paragraph) seems to be more of a general idea focussing on posting in GD. It doesn't bear much relevance to the post(s) itself.
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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 14:07   #16
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Re: G to the De-tox

I thought I'd try taking a bit of it seriously, to see what happens, and I have nothing else to do anyway!
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[b]
1. There is art: Why?

Nature makes its own art (as science suggests), objectively; we tap into nature to bring out its art, subjectively.
Why is nature's art objective and our art subjective? Does nature not count as a subject as much as any artist? Can people not take different subjective experiences themselves from nature's "art" (whatever that even means). I think a little expansion on what exactly you mean here would be useful.

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Art usually provokes an emotional response by utilizing a shift in the focus between simple and un-simple things by putting them in and out of context. This spawns pattern, symmetry, irony, ambiguity, etc - all the aesthetics.
I'm not sure I agree with this either, art provokes emotional responses in many different ways that you haven't mentioned here. It's not all about context. There's a certain "art" to the creation of characters in a story, and you can sympathise and empathise with these characters regardless of the context. In fact, in character driven novels (for example) then the context will follow the characters rather than the characters being changed by the author's arbitrary shifting of context. That's just one example though, art provokes emotional responses in many more ways than you have said it "usually" does, that's just one technique used by some artists.

Also I think perhaps "complicated" may have been a better choice of word than "un-simple".

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If you think about why a big twist at the end of a movie gives us a shock, it's because of a suspension of belief, or a shift of context.
What do you mean here? What does it have to do with suspension of disbelief? If character and plot are created skillfully then it will shock us but not require suspension of belief, in fact it will fit in better than what we thought the ending would have been. It's simple, but you can just say that it gives us a shock because it's not what we were expecting, isn't that all that shock is? Here you are overcomplicating, I feel.

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On a larger scale, everything we do and create is a work of art on some level. "Art for art's sake" is partly bullsh*t. The very fact that art feels a need to become more sophisticated and interesting over time is a hint to the underlying concept that art seeks for a purpose.
Art for art's sake is an empty phrase. Art for the sake of truth, art for the sake of the good and the beautiful that is the faith I am searching for.

- George Sand

I don't think that art always feels a need to become more sophisticated, we are past modernism as far as art goes. Art in an old, simple, style can still be popular. More common however would be the combination of an old style with a modern twist, I don't think this is necessarily more "sophisticated" than some of the forms of art of the early 20th Century. Trying new things isn't necessarily always moving towards greater sophistication, but more a reaction against a feeling of exhaustion of contemporary styles, whether the product of this is more sophisticated or not is largely random.

Also, even if that were true, you couldn't surmise from it that art always "seeks for a purpose", as Mr Sand said, art for the sake of the good or the beautiful would be a far more popular opinion than some underlying purpose.

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Thus, art contains objective light.
lol what? This is the most absurd statement so far.

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When we look at many self-proclaimed "artistic" people, we find a very spiritual quality that has come to be implied with a figurative heart and soul. This type of person probably knows about the paradox seen at the root of our feelings. They have seen a seemingly love-hate duality, until they finally recognized it as it truly was, as a love versus fear scenario (or love with its back turned). Call it the "logic" of love, or in any manner, but both men and women have been putting up with it since Adam and Eve. To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love.
Here you're generalising terribly about artistic people, and then simply placing your own values of love, hate, and then fear or "love with it's back turned". If you're going to use these words in such ways then you need to define them yourself, how is the reader expected to know exactly what you mean by them? I can't even begin to understand what you're trying to say here without knowing that.

Anyway, I have to go to work now, I only did one of your things as I don't really have time for the others. I hope to see a nice reply tonight )))

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Unread 27 Jul 2008, 23:43   #17
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Re: G to the De-tox

Your proposition in itself is already severely flawed.
Your assumption of "religion equals God" is too narrow, while religion is a broader concept which does contain for instance monotheism, polytheism, but also atheism.
This flaw also points at a severly narrow mindedness of you yourself, Prover. Your purpose shows this as well:
Quote:
To (a) share my spiritual experiences, (b) learn in an open-minded environment, (c) practice my evangelicalism.
A priori, practicising evangelicalism and learning in an open-minded environment exclude eachother. This observation is beautifully exemplified by:
Quote:
Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
My observation is that you are the one who is narrow-minded, arrogant and tries to persuade people in a way that will only bring the opposite result. If you wish to accomplish an open debate, if you wish to have a sound critical discussion: start opening yourself up. I wish you good luck.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 00:09   #18
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Re: G to the De-tox

Membrivio:

Never did I say "religion equals God". It was clearly "religion is about God". It was also clearly implicit that I meant the God-religions, which make up the 'average' religion anyway. I said up front this was a very broad-minded topic, yet you are confusing that with narrow-mindedness. Furthermore, practicing evangelicalism and learning in an open-minded environment easily do not exclude each other. You know very little about my brand of evangelicalism in the first place. Then you take one sentence that slipped out in a reply of frustration about atheists and try to retract everything else I wrote. When else was I not being positive? Do you not see the problem here is with a gap in communication? It's not about arrogance or narrow-mindedness. It should be about humility and empathy. I have a very good grasp of 'averages' in the world, so that is how I'm presenting my arguments because they are the clear facts of human nature. You might see this post as generalizing too much (I call it pattern recognition), but I think it's as founded as any other scientific discipline. I just haven't included all the hard statistics.

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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:04   #19
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Re: G to the De-tox

This is turning into one of those terrible comedy sketches where the two girls realise they're dating one guy who is pretending to be a twin.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:06   #20
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Re: G to the De-tox

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This is turning into one of those terrible comedy sketches where the two girls realise they're dating one guy who is pretending to be a twin.
they were all written by people you.
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:07   #21
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Re: G to the De-tox

a lot of ownage in this thread
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 16:49   #22
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Re: G to the De-tox

level 2
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Unread 28 Jul 2008, 19:35   #23
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Re: G to the De-tox

well this certainly puts to bed any doubts people have about horn's sanity ...
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 10:17   #24
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Re: G to the De-tox

This is getting amusingly absurd. Very pro.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 18:17   #25
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Re: G to the De-tox

an overmind is an ambiguous meme
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 19:22   #26
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Re: G to the De-tox

Reading some of the other posts has made no sense to me, espcially as I didn't read this one first. I'm going over some old ground, but I don't care.

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
my spiritual experiences, (b) learn in an open-minded environment, (c) practice my evangelicalism.
What is your background? Were you raised in a religious family?

Quote:
This will facilitate a holistic approach to understanding the big picture, though we can't fully understand it during our time. It is a paradox to be thinking in 4D.
What is 4D thinking? Why is it a paradox?

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Yet we can infer within our limits some of what it entails. The more we look at paradoxes the more we come to the ineffable, and vice versa.
How so? The complexity of language or a lack of understanding? Or something else?

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Modern thought has mostly been dualistic as a result of what was normally 3D-thinking (modern science approves this with innumerable evidence),
Doesn't careful inspection of particles and shit reject dualism? Isn't it only kept as a simplification?

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but now it is expanding outward as we pervade the scope of time (as a continuous spectrum).
Making 4D thought?

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A most illustrative method is to combine the 3 general aspects we see of life into one. It's supposed to become an image of order and simplicity in your mind...

The following 3 categories include: Art, Science, & Religion
Isn't this rather arbitrary? Why are these three separate categories? At best, isn't it simply a condition of modern society, a continually altering idea?

Quote:
- Each of these are important to an extent in our lives (the whole of humanity). My hypothesis is that all these paths in life search for the same thing.
This is a broad generalisation and assumes all people are searching for the same thing.

Quote:
1. There is art: Why?

Nature makes its own art (as science suggests), objectively; we tap into nature to bring out its art, subjectively.
No we don't. This literally makes no sense. Science suggests nothing of the sort. I don't believe science is even capable of suggesting such a thing.

Quote:
Art usually provokes an emotional response by utilizing a shift in the focus between simple and un-simple things by putting them in and out of context. This spawns pattern, symmetry, irony, ambiguity, etc - all the aesthetics. If you think about why a big twist at the end of a movie gives us a shock, it's because of a suspension of belief, or a shift of context.
There are many kinds of things art does to people. There is no reason why 'simple things' cannot produce as great (or greater) emotional impact than the big shock. I would go far as to suggest that the best works of art are not the ones with the big shocks, which can be simple compensations for a lack of substance.

Quote:
On a larger scale, everything we do and create is a work of art on some level. "Art for art's sake" is partly bullsh*t.
Isn't this a contradiction with your earleir point? If art is objective, then art for arts sake could produce the best works ever? Why does there have to be a greater reason than 'I like to do it'? Does the artist need to understand what he is doing? What about autistic people?

Quote:
The very fact that art feels a need to become more sophisticated and interesting over time is a hint to the underlying concept that art seeks for a purpose. Thus, art contains objective light.
I would suggest changes in art are usually the result of the socio-economic situation alongside the history of art up until that point. I see no reason to conclude that art is 'going somewhere' rather than 'constantly moving'.

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When we look at many self-proclaimed "artistic" people, we find a very spiritual quality that has come to be implied with a figurative heart and soul.
People talking bollocks about themselves shocker!

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This type of person probably knows about the paradox seen at the root of our feelings. They have seen a seemingly love-hate duality, until they finally recognized it as it truly was, as a love versus fear scenario (or love with its back turned). Call it the "logic" of love, or in any manner, but both men and women have been putting up with it since Adam and Eve. To put it in one sentence: our expression of art and meaning comes from love.
Never underestimate the ability of people to talk absolute bollocks and for other people to take it seriously.

Expression of art can come from love, but it also comes from many other places.

Quote:
2. There is science: Why?

"Cogito, ergo sum." All of science is trying to formulate a complete response to this most fundamental proposition on the philosophy of knowledge. We might be able to infer that we exist, but 'why?' is still the lingering question. So rather than only speculating and reacting with our imagination, we mix it up by investigating natural and material substances where our actions and reality take form.
This is where is gets really messed up. Science gets results. Science interests some people. The pursuit of knowledge/truth is one way. Lots of money is another. Being proclaimed a genius and going down in history for a great discovery is another. These are not all noble goals, but they can all progress science.

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Our logic has been reduced to binary distinctions, and to avoid the dualistic quarrel, further to probabilistic relations. Scientists are trying desperately to reduce the paradox of our overextended 4D-vision into worldly knowledge. This brings about a progressive, if not positive, light into science.
What do you mean by 'worldly knowledge?'

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People have realized a body of knowledge through interpretation of their experiences. As a result of this understanding, people feel a sense of power that comes with it. This energy, if you will, is what makes us apply our education in the world and in society, as we feel a sense of responsibility for bringing it about.
Some people do, others don't. Some even oppose science!

Some might suggest that the material benefits are why we utilise scientific discoveries and the spreading of education is accompanied by methods of social control, so only 'useful' knowledge is passed along.

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(It also seems related to the influx we notice at the subatomic level).
No idea what this means.

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But the important point here is that we seek advancement because it gives us more confidence and assurance in our lives.
A generalisation, and a false one at that. I don't believe people feel more confident and asured now than they did 200 years ago.

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The ultimate goal is to find out what is really true. We look at the most basic feature we know of the universe, light, and in between try to uncover both its beginning and its destination. Therein lies the answer to universal truth.
Could you elaborate on this point?

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3. There is religion: Why?

Religion is more of an intermediary aspect than the more polarized aspects of art and science. It is correlated to many pursuits in both the arts and sciences. And despite its interdisciplinary nature, it has the most simplistic approach to living life.
This is a mockery of both science and art. Religion presents lies as both the definition of truth and of beauty. Religion pays lip-service to both, only insofar as they promote religion.

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This peace of mind that religious faith brings to an individual is more than just reassurance they will prevail in the end.
I don't know if any religious person actually has peace of mind.

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It acts as motivation to go on living a balanced and healthy lifestyle (an art to living, so to say, with the aid of science).
It gives a set of rules, which people choose to follow or ignore as they want. To what extent it has a positive impact is debatable.

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Historically, the basis of religion has provided a mosaic of cultures and traditions, churches and synagogues. The emphasis has not only been on personal development, but on building stronger communities and developing social life. Given these missions, religions hope to unite people together so we can live in peace, if not harmony.
Too general. Too many religions. Religious conflicts seem to disagree with these points.

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Even though churches may turn dogma into distraction, there's no denying they help to set priorities in life toward charities, families, friends, and most importantly, unto God.
They set priorites that benefit themselves, generally speaking. Promoting God, it also a benefit to the church.

Quote:
[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]
I'm not sure why you have brought this up, or why you think 'different situations stimulate different emotions' is relevent here.

Quote:
I. Summary

a + 1, b + 2, c + 3, ...

Art ~ Love
Science ~ Truth
Religion ~ God

Love = Truth = God

That is my proposition, no joke.

Go ahead and make jokes about my sentiments on this kind of forum, if you feel like it, but it just so happens that that's what's new around here. If you try to subdue your machismo for the time being you might just get some of the picture.
No idea why you have concluded this or what you actually believe.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 20:17   #27
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go View Post
Never underestimate the ability of people to talk absolute bollocks and for other people to take it seriously.
Quoted for emphasis.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 20:48   #28
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Re: G to the De-tox

All Systems Go: You clearly did not consider my previous replies because I've largely clarified (and corrected) many of the things you're questioning. Do people not know how proper communication works? I have no idea what you're trying to say in a long post with a bunch of destructive questions. Understand: nobody is teaching here; learning comes from within. Please write in complete paragraphs and try to limit your questions to a few, so to help bridge our communication gap.

The discussion came down to a fundamental difference in our scientific understanding as I explained in post #31. Do try to keep up. The difference between us is that I don't assume to know even 1% about the nature of reality, whereas you (materialists) assume the nature of reality is all we can know. Let's focus on settling this distinction.

Last edited by Prover; 29 Jul 2008 at 21:09.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 15:39   #29
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Re: G to the De-tox

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All Systems Go: You clearly did not consider my previous replies because I've largely clarified (and corrected) many of the things you're questioning.
I have read most of what was said. I did not understand it so I read the original post. I also did not understand that.

Quote:
Do people not know how proper communication works? I have no idea what you're trying to say in a long post with a bunch of destructive questions.
I think you use too many words. The questions were questions, sometimes with a disagreement. But mainly questions. These were posted in the hope that answers were forthcoming.

Quote:
Understand: nobody is teaching here; learning comes from within. Please write in complete paragraphs and try to limit your questions to a few, so to help bridge our communication gap.
This isn't about learning. It's about understand what you are trying to say.

The questions are plentiful to facilitate shorter answers. A block of writing does not seem to be an approriate way of asking questions about something that is not clearly understood.

Quote:
The discussion came down to a fundamental difference in our scientific understanding as I explained in post #31. Do try to keep up.
Unfortunatly, that post was bollocks.

Quote:
The difference between us is that I don't assume to know even 1% about the nature of reality, whereas you (materialists) assume the nature of reality is all we can know. Let's focus on settling this distinction.
These aren't mutually exclusive viewpoints. In fact, I would say that outside of extreme circles (which may not actually exist) no-one with any sanity would claim we know more than a fraction of the materialistic world.

I'm not sure if you're implying that there is a world outside of the one we experience, but if there is hwo can we even begin to understand it?
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 17:06   #30
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Re: G to the De-tox

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I'm not sure if you're implying that there is a world outside of the one we experience, but if there is hwo can we even begin to understand it?
I suspect that later on you may kick yourself for asking that.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 21:09   #31
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Re: G to the De-tox

I used to have a 3D poster of Sam Fox. I swear down her thighs followed you all round the room.
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Unread 29 Jul 2008, 22:55   #32
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Re: G to the De-tox

anyone find it ironic that this thread started like this

OP wank post
Random slaggins from random ppl

Now usually this is where the thread dies...but for some reason posters are engaging OP in subjective debate.

Holy bat shit did this just become a thread?

/me pulls up a seat to watch
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:17   #33
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Re: G to the De-tox

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover

[The latest neuroscience is demonstrating a strong correlation between happiness and intercommunicating in the fullest. Our most profound experiences are largely inexplicable in writing and thinking anyway. We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. And according to this science, these vibes (or electrodes) are vitally implanted in our brains to give us pleasure. This gets lost when we're only exposed to virtual means of communication.]


Quote:
what are you doing here then ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover
I thought my purpose statement was pretty clear. Go back and re-read it, since your question demonstrates the typical lack of understanding from the narrow-minded thinker who zeros in to the point of abstrusity. The true question is what are you doing here? That is, why are you trying to ignore the major thesis of my post by putting things in a negative view? If you have something to contribute, such as qualitative (or quantitative) information, please do so.

Figures, atheists run out of the foxhole when things get serious.
ok, i dont debate on forums, especially this one, my spelling and punctuation skills are not up to it as anyone here who is anally retentive about that will inform you, and i dont wish to drive them insane ! (i actually play the game that theese forums are connected to)
But just for you i will try to make my point. (sorry guys).

You say that a virtual enviroment numbs the emotions
Quote:
*We feel the greatest sensations when our emotions become loosened in the presence of other people. *
surely theese forums are a virtual enviroment, you have no direct connection, no idea when the people writing are here.

Forums are a disconnection from real life interactions, a buffer between the writer and interaction with others, thats why they are so popular, what your saying is that places like this numb the emotional neurons in our brains, so why are you here numbing yours, why are you not out, doing this in real time ?

Why should it matter if i am athiest or not ?

Does no faith or belief in a higher power preclude the ability to have a reasoned discussion or debate, far from it, a closed mind is the only thing that does that !
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:30   #34
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Re: G to the De-tox

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If you were at all familiar with quantum mechanics, you would know about its subjective nature given that light behaves as both a wave and a particle. That duality (I like to call it a paradox) is at the physical limits for advancement in science, so probability is used (as 4D-thinking) to bridge this gap in describing nature. (This is also relevantly adopted by meteorologists who are coming to terms with chaos theory in weather predictions).
This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read in my life and shows you actually have barely any understanding of the concepts you mentioned.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 18:13   #35
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read in my life and shows you actually have barely any understanding of the concepts you mentioned.
A lot of my stuff is built on this concept in quantum mechanics. Why not try to enlighten us with your knowledge if you have the correct interpretation? I'm definitely not alone in my opinion, since a lot of experts recognize the same thing. To say it has no implications to other areas is retarded.

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This isn't about learning. It's about understand what you are trying to say.
How is that not learning? You need to first learn how to communicate with someone who thinks differently than you do. My purpose here is not to appease everyone with answers to their questions. If you're going to tear down what I wrote, I want you to at least give a better observation than what I gave. That's how these religion & science forums are supposed to work by being constructive. I was mostly making observations in my first post. You mistakenly thought I had some answer to everyone's problems, but I'm just trying to understand you as much as you're trying to understand me.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 19:03   #36
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Re: G to the De-tox

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You need to first learn how to communicate
I'm thinking you might want to follow your own advice. As a first step. No offence intended. Just trying to help.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 19:26   #37
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Re: G to the De-tox

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A lot of my stuff is built on this concept in quantum mechanics. Why not try to enlighten us with your knowledge if you have the correct interpretation? I'm definitely not alone in my opinion, since a lot of experts recognize the same thing. To say it has no implications to other areas is retarded.
If you are going to talk in subjective terms and then claim that it is built on quantum mechanics, then you have to expect some intellectual resistance.

There are, after all, plenty of people who actually know a great deal about quantum mechanics, and how it is applied. Perhaps the experts you mentioned are some of these people; you might wish to gain credibility by citing some of the papers in which they agree with you.

As far as I can see you have mentioned diddly-squat which has anything to do with modern physics. All you have talked about is what seems intuitive to you, and the follies of intuitive reasoning are why we have the scientific method.

Quantum mechanics is emphatically not an ill-defined magical term you can bandy about to justify your own musings on reality. Please don't insult our intelligence by using it as such.

Vote for close
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 20:26   #38
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Re: G to the De-tox

Please ignore any insults to your intelligence because they're clearly unintentional. In regard to the context (my meaning), quantum mechanics is only the basis for statistical mechanics. I'd rather not go into the details here because this is supposed to be more of a spiritual discussion, not confined to the "scientific method". Nobody in GD seems to know what that means. If it's small talk to your ears (nb: I know I'm saying ears, and you don't have to question it's absurdity because it's just an expression, and what's not), why not just ignore me?

Here's an example of a spiritual concern in the news...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...bobyrne117.xml

Now, I'm reserving judgment on whether or not she's telling her truth, but it does bring about interesting conversations. Of course, there have been thousands of testimonial accounts in history that have supposedly contacted the spirit world. But if you're not involved in spiritual matters, maybe you shouldn't be engaged in any of this discussion. The majority of people in the world engage in spirituality, I thought.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 20:42   #39
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
Please ignore any insults to your intelligence because they're clearly unintentional. In regard to the context (my meaning), quantum mechanics is only the basis for statistical mechanics. I'd rather not go into the details here because this is supposed to be more of a spiritual discussion, not confined to the "scientific method". Nobody in GD seems to know what that means. If it's small talk to your ears (nb: I know I'm saying ears, and you don't have to question it's absurdity because it's just an expression, and what's not), why not just ignore me?

Here's an example of a spiritual concern in the news...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...bobyrne117.xml

Now, I'm reserving judgment on whether or not she's telling her truth, but it does bring about interesting conversations. Of course, there have been thousands of testimonial accounts in history that have supposedly contacted the spirit world. But if you're not involved in spiritual matters, maybe you shouldn't be engaged in any of this discussion. The majority of people in the world engage in spirituality, I thought.
Ok. Right. Fine.

IF we are to indulge horn in this latest descent into insanity THEN could we at least have proper use of grammar?

It helps no one to see commas used as confetti. Even trying to read the posts (which I strongly suspect are generated by either a) utter insanity, or b) an automated web program) ought in fairness to at least be grammatically correct.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 21:38   #40
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
Please ignore any insults to your intelligence because they're clearly unintentional. In regard to the context (my meaning), quantum mechanics is only the basis for statistical mechanics. I'd rather not go into the details here because this is supposed to be more of a spiritual discussion, not confined to the "scientific method". Nobody in GD seems to know what that means. If it's small talk to your ears (nb: I know I'm saying ears, and you don't have to question it's absurdity because it's just an expression, and what's not), why not just ignore me?

Here's an example of a spiritual concern in the news...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...bobyrne117.xml

Now, I'm reserving judgment on whether or not she's telling her truth, but it does bring about interesting conversations. Of course, there have been thousands of testimonial accounts in history that have supposedly contacted the spirit world. But if you're not involved in spiritual matters, maybe you shouldn't be engaged in any of this discussion. The majority of people in the world engage in spirituality, I thought.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 21:47   #41
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
Please ignore any insults to your intelligence because they're clearly unintentional. In regard to the context (my meaning), quantum mechanics is only the basis for statistical mechanics. I'd rather not go into the details here because this is supposed to be more of a spiritual discussion, not confined to the "scientific method". Nobody in GD seems to know what that means. If it's small talk to your ears (nb: I know I'm saying ears, and you don't have to question it's absurdity because it's just an expression, and what's not), why not just ignore me?
The problem with this is that you have, by stating that your discussion of spiritual matters is somewhat based in the realm of quantum mechanics, introduced an inconsistency into your own reasoning.

Obviously nobody expects you to discuss matters of spirituality in strict adherence to the scientific method. However, they might reasonably expect anything based on quantum mechanics to be commensurate with, and only with, the rational and/or mathematical predictions which that discipline makes.

Quote:
Here's an example of a spiritual concern in the news...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...bobyrne117.xml
Now, I'm reserving judgment on whether or not she's telling her truth, but it does bring about interesting conversations.
Conversations like "which is more likely? That this woman has woefully mis-identified the symptoms of a neurological disorder, or that she sees supernatural beings from the imagination"?

Quote:
Of course, there have been thousands of testimonial accounts in history that have supposedly contacted the spirit world. But if you're not involved in spiritual matters, maybe you shouldn't be engaged in any of this discussion.
"Agree or be quiet" negates the need for discussion really, doesn't it?

Quote:
The majority of people in the world engage in spirituality, I thought.
Yes, and as nice as they are many of them wish to murder each other. Although it does rather depend on what sort of spirituality you are talking about, because it's a very vague term.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 22:34   #42
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Re: G to the De-tox

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
Here's an example of a spiritual concern in the news...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...bobyrne117.xml

Now, I'm reserving judgment on whether or not she's telling her truth, but it does bring about interesting conversations. Of course, there have been thousands of testimonial accounts in history that have supposedly contacted the spirit world.
There have been thousands of documented cases of people claiming to be the new Messiah. We call these people insane and lock them up. Why don't we do it with people like this? **** knows.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 22:32   #43
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Re: G to the De-tox

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover View Post
How is that not learning
Because I'm yet to be convinced that your words have any meaning whatsoever. Whilst this is also learing in a technical sense, I think it does the word injustice to be used in this context.

Quote:
You need to first learn how to communicate with someone who thinks differently than you do.
Maybe you need to communicate with everyone else?

Quote:
My purpose here is not to appease everyone with answers to their questions.
We are qustioning what you have claimed. This is what a discussion forum does. It does not have to propose an alternative.

Quote:
If you're going to tear down what I wrote, I want you to at least give a better observation than what I gave.
I have to give nothing. You have made some large claims. IF they do not stand up to some simple questions then I would suggest you seriously rethink your claims.

Quote:
That's how these religion & science forums are supposed to work by being constructive. I was mostly making observations in my first post. You mistakenly thought I had some answer to everyone's problems, but I'm just trying to understand you as much as you're trying to understand me.
The truth is not one person on this forum has even the foggiest idea of what you are trying to say. Not one person. How therefore do you expect people to be constructive? If you set out your post in a digestable manner, then perhaps something more constructive could be provided.

You provided a thesis of the universe. I would call that an answer, of sorts. If you can't defend it or explain it clearly then that's hardly the fault of everyone else on this board.*

*although you clearly disagree
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 10:57   #44
Alezzar
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Re: G to the De-tox

The topic made me sad...ffs, Prover, kill your self :|
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:28   #45
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Re: G to the De-tox

I don't understand why people are humouring him. He's obviously mental.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:36   #46
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Re: G to the De-tox

I thought we were supposed to encourage new members, regardless of age race, mental compentance or if they're actually a real person?
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:38   #47
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Re: G to the De-tox

Even I have my limits.
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 13:42   #48
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Re: G to the De-tox

15 and over.

am i rite
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 15:14   #49
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Re: G to the De-tox

I don't think mental quite covers it. I move we hereafter use the term "batshit insane".
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Unread 30 Jul 2008, 19:56   #50
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Re: G to the De-tox

vote for ban

vote for horn actually being funny ...
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