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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 07:56   #1
CBA
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Ascrime

Will Ascendancy and Apprime take the next step for allying into a full on merge to create a superior breed of pa players ready to take on the universe!?!?














Seriously though

why the nap?

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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 08:21   #2
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Re: Ascrime

hehe.

It makes sense for both sides I spose?
Apprime can now just rollercoast to #1 without asc to lead the other block. I cant see us ( p3ng ) manage to talk ND / CT to keep hitting apprime enough to not make em #1. I hope I m wrong though!

Asc on the other side can consentrate on doing what they want to, and get #1 gal.

Why shouldnt they nap?
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Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 10:00   #3
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Re: Ascrime

The knights in shining armour have failed, and decided to chicken out.

On a sidenote, aren't CT #1 and the ones that should be leading the block in order to stay up there?
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 10:15   #4
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Buly View Post
The knights in shining armour have failed, and decided to chicken out.

On a sidenote, aren't CT #1 and the ones that should be leading the block in order to stay up there?
What exactly did we fail ,do you know why asc led the block against app ? Because all your post tells me is that you havent got a clue so your resorting to stupidity
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 10:27   #5
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Buly View Post
On a sidenote, aren't CT #1 and the ones that should be leading the block in order to stay up there?
Correct me if im wrong, but i dont think u need to be the highest ranked alliance to lead the block, u need someone with the interest and will to do so.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 12:03   #6
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buly View Post
On a sidenote, aren't CT #1 and the ones that should be leading the block in order to stay up there?
This is exactly the problem. The alliances able to challenge for #1 are not challenging. Ascendancy stepped up and organised a block because noone else was capable or willing to lead. It wasn't Ascendancy's fight, it never was and it still isn't. This block has extended the round length from being over at pt72, to maybe lasting another week, 5 in total! That's some pretty impressive stuff for an alliance down in eighth place. Back to the point though: if Conspiracy and co don't step up to the plate, the round will be over in a week or less, yet they seem unable or unwilling to do so. Two nights of gal raiding, nice going! Why should anyone other than the alliances challenging for #1 have to take the initiative and do the hard work if they're not going to do it themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Asc on the other side can consentrate on doing what they want to, and get #1 gal.
The gal in question is hardly an Asc fortress like the kind we're used to seeing. In fact I highly doubt this is the motivation behind some of Asc's key political players, given the amount of inc Golan continues to organise on the gal!
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 12:48   #7
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Re: Ascrime

that's just for xp, nothing personal
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 12:59   #8
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
This is exactly the problem. The alliances able to challenge for #1 are not challenging. Ascendancy stepped up and organised a block because noone else was capable or willing to lead. It wasn't Ascendancy's fight, it never was and it still isn't. This block has extended the round length from being over at pt72, to maybe lasting another week, 5 in total! That's some pretty impressive stuff for an alliance down in eighth place. Back to the point though: if Conspiracy and co don't step up to the plate, the round will be over in a week or less, yet they seem unable or unwilling to do so. Two nights of gal raiding, nice going! Why should anyone other than the alliances challenging for #1 have to take the initiative and do the hard work if they're not going to do it themselves?


agreed and understandable. sad though that theres only 1 alliance playing for #1 while the rest are playing to do well.
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 13:40   #9
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Re: Ascrime

Why don't you take all these wonderful thoughts you have Wish, that you're so diligently sharing with us on the forums, and direct them towards your alliance! If you spent all this time that you spend on the forums instead trying to help the alliance whose tag you're in, maybe we wouldn't be in this sad state of affairs! Shame your heart ain't really where your mouth is. Though I wouldn't really want to put my heart around elviz's dick too if I were you, but I digress!
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 13:45   #10
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Re: Ascrime

haha. I m at work atm. So bored that I cant stay away from the forums.
But cant sit on irc / sort shit. When I m done at work, I go out fishing, and during the weekends I m drunk.
Its summer man, and I m working and when I m not, I m enjoying summer

maybe I ll take an active role next round! lets hope I dont

( how do you put a heart around a dick? )
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Quote:
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 13:56   #11
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post

( how do you put a heart around a dick? )

Take a PINK crayon, make a BIG heart shaped form on the ground.


Then go stand inside the heart shaped form.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 14:20   #12
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA View Post

Seriously though

why the nap?

We voted for it.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 14:33   #13
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
( how do you put a heart around a dick? )

Just tell the dick you love it. It'll understand, there's no need to draw anything. ^_^
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 16:06   #14
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Re: Ascrime

Lol. Of all the probable political moves, this one is the least expected.
Anyways, if it's just a NAP, i don't see what the big fuzz is. Maybe p3nguins should NAP App as well.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 16:33   #15
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Re: Ascrime

Let's all NAP each other and play Sim-Tarion... christ's sake. This game seems to be driven by us in Ascendancy only. If it wouldn't be for us everyone would just stick to galaxy raids and that's it. What's wrong with everyone else for not actively seeking their alliance's own benefit in the race for #1?
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 16:45   #16
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Re: Ascrime

I would have loved to see Asc vs App on a one to one fight. Let's be realistic though, there is only just enough quality in PA left to make 1.5 good alliances.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 18:11   #17
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Let's all NAP each other and play Sim-Tarion... christ's sake. This game seems to be driven by us in Ascendancy only. If it wouldn't be for us everyone would just stick to galaxy raids and that's it. What's wrong with everyone else for not actively seeking their alliance's own benefit in the race for #1?
Thats just not true, Apprime and p3ng were fighting. p3ng was losing without a chance, they werent capable of organizing help. Asc got involved and organized help, people were willing to listen to Asc since they are liek teh imbal33troflhax0rpro. Now theyre gone and things are back to what they were like before. CT etc dont have a big strong guy to stand behind anymore, so they just go back to being pussy.

That Ascrime thing would be cool if ascrime would be trying to get CT etc involved. But probably they will go for p3n since they are the only other alliance who seem to be taking a stab at winning. So another war where we can already predict the result, sad but true.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 18:43   #18
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
I would have loved to see Asc vs App on a one to one fight. Let's be realistic though, there is only just enough quality in PA left to make 1.5 good alliances.
There's no quality left in PA to be worth the trouble.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 19:36   #19
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by MiX View Post
That Ascrime thing would be cool if ascrime would be trying to get CT etc involved
Why the hell would we want to do that? They're Apprime's main competition at the moment! :|
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 21:03   #20
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Re: Ascrime

Did someone actively target Asc today? Just curious as to the small roid loss.
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 21:11   #21
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Re: Ascrime

First of all continuing to beat Apprime into the ground was certainly an option for us. And we could have done it quite easily. The result however would have been a pretty stagnant round and two alliances up for victory who up to this point have shown little initiative to win. Both results would be disappointing outcomes for any round of planetarion.

Essentially by hitting Apprime up to this point we have created a three horse race in the final stages of the round. We're pitting Apprime's activity against a simple test for CT and p3nguins, which is whether they can cooperate. Whoever prevails will deserve to win that battle, and thus the round. Apprime have shown resilience while CT and p3ng are yet to respond. They should have learned by now that co-operation is the only way for them to dent Apprime. If they aren't willing to put other issue aside to cooperate, then they deserve to lose and if they've got any sense they'll heed my warning. Even on random roid raids, they'll outroid the other two so the other two need to work something out or they'll get binned the moment App have the strength to do so. So like ellonweb said - show some initiative.

Secondly, why NAP Apprime? Well, I certainly wouldn't have voted for it as I don't think they really need any help. My only guess is individual motivation to get roids. I would suspect that if p3ng and CT got their shit together we might do something different (although I can't say how other Asc would view that), which would probably be switching to general roiding rather than helping out either party.

Given our size and activity level we've achieved pretty much all we can bar a few ranks. We've arguably played much better than last round, better than everyone else in some aspects. It's disappointing not to be winning but we can't really finish #1 all the time.

Edit: Here's the graph: http://www.sandmans.co.uk/?p=compare...73&type=values
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Unread 24 Jul 2009, 23:12   #22
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATRO View Post
Did someone actively target Asc today? Just curious as to the small roid loss.
We had some incs from ND in 8:4 which contains a couple of Ascers. I also believe another Asc gal had incs, but not sure from who.

Not sure if this is actively or actually just gal raiding gals with a couple Asc planets in them. You'd have to ask the attacking alliances about that.

Cheers
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 11:09   #23
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATRO View Post
Did someone actively target Asc today? Just curious as to the small roid loss.
One planet lost 1100 roids yesterday, that planet was asc. Prolly will be a small minus again today, seems it's more important to hit us than apprime for some alliances
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 12:49   #24
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Re: Ascrime

the price we pay for not doing other ally's dirty work i guess

Last edited by gzambo; 25 Jul 2009 at 12:53. Reason: spelling
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 13:34   #25
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
the price we pay for not doing other ally's dirty work i guess
highest avg size on a 4th avg score and probably less avg value when looking at the general style of play in your alliance. Perhaps asc is just a good target because of roidfat?

Also hopping from one side to another is not a guaranteed way to avoid inc from both sides.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 16:35   #26
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Prolly will be a small minus again today, seems it's more important to hit us than apprime for some alliances
Yes, you are being deliberately targetted since you left the block. Oh wait, no your not, PA doesn't revolve around Ascendancy as much as you self loving idiots try to pretend it does. Since you left the block and napped Apprime you have become completely irrelevant to everything. Know your role.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 16:56   #27
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by VenoX View Post
PA doesn't revolve around Ascendancy
Judging by AD it does.

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Originally Posted by MiX View Post
Also hopping from one side to another is not a guaranteed way to avoid inc from both sides.
Hitting an ally for "hopping sides" works with allies like CT and Angels (one night of 25% roidloss in R13 springs to mind) but Ascendancy are more likely to start attacking with Apprime (if they haven't already)
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 17:00   #28
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
One planet lost 1100 roids yesterday, that planet was asc. Prolly will be a small minus again today, seems it's more important to hit us than apprime for some alliances
(He was asking about yesterday, not today.)
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 17:20   #29
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
...
Hitting an ally for "hopping sides" works with allies like CT and Angels (one night of 25% roidloss in R13 springs to mind) but Ascendancy are more likely to start attacking with Apprime (if they haven't already)
I ment it more as a responce to the surprised/upset responce on their incoming as expressed in this forum topic. They seem to expect CT etc. to just continue hitting Apprime and they expect everyone to leave asc alone. Since they used to be one of the "good guys", and now they napped the other side, how can anyone possibly attack them?

Well there are several obvious reasons, the first one I already stated;
Asc is roidfat, much more so then any other alliance, and since their low membercount/high number of scanners this effect is even more significant. More fat and less value/defence fleets.
Then there are a lot of gals containing both Apprime and Asc. Before the asc targets in these gals were avoided, now they are included in the target lists. I know for a fact those apprime heavy gals are still being targeted. It seems the asc in those gals are just losing more then the apprime in there. Perhaps the same reason about more fat/less available defence.
Perhaps asc is also being retalled/defended more by whoever they attack now, because they dont have other bigger alliance to soak up those fleets anymore.

Those are just a few reasons from the top of my head, I hope everyone in asc who voted for napping apprime kept those in mind atleast. Though it seems some didnt and are now surprised.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 17:49   #30
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
(He was asking about yesterday, not today.)
And I told him what happend yesterday, can you stop this recent onset of needless posts please?
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 18:29   #31
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by MiX View Post
I ment it more as a responce to the surprised/upset responce on their incoming as expressed in this forum topic. They seem to expect CT etc. to just continue hitting Apprime and they expect everyone to leave asc alone. Since they used to be one of the "good guys", and now they napped the other side, how can anyone possibly attack them?

Well there are several obvious reasons, the first one I already stated;
Asc is roidfat, much more so then any other alliance, and since their low membercount/high number of scanners this effect is even more significant. More fat and less value/defence fleets.
Then there are a lot of gals containing both Apprime and Asc. Before the asc targets in these gals were avoided, now they are included in the target lists. I know for a fact those apprime heavy gals are still being targeted. It seems the asc in those gals are just losing more then the apprime in there. Perhaps the same reason about more fat/less available defence.
Perhaps asc is also being retalled/defended more by whoever they attack now, because they dont have other bigger alliance to soak up those fleets anymore.

Those are just a few reasons from the top of my head, I hope everyone in asc who voted for napping apprime kept those in mind atleast. Though it seems some didnt and are now surprised.
Yeah man, totally makes sense to put 0 waves on 900 roid apprime targets, but on the 1200 asc ones lets make 4 big waves! This is in the same galaxy. CT etc said themselfs the block broke up too early, but instead of even trying to hit apprime without our "irrelevant" alliance, they go straight back to gal raiding. And yes, if they had any sense, they would keep hitting apprime, it's quite clear they are focused alot more on attacking now, therefor lacking in defense. I don't think anyonein asc expected to be left alone, then we would just have stayed in the block.. I am not surprised at this behaviour though, it was the same story when they had a hard target to hit in the block..

There's pretty much only 1 gal with a good amount of both apprime and asc, I think we all know which gal that is Roidwise, we are very top heavy so the average is a pretty poor indicater.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 18:40   #32
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Yeah man, totally makes sense to put 0 waves on 900 roid apprime targets, but on the 1200 asc ones lets make 4 big waves! This is in the same galaxy. CT etc said themselfs the block broke up too early, but instead of even trying to hit apprime without our "irrelevant" alliance, they go straight back to gal raiding. And yes, if they had any sense, they would keep hitting apprime, it's quite clear they are focused alot more on attacking now, therefor lacking in defense. I don't think anyonein asc expected to be left alone, then we would just have stayed in the block.. I am not surprised at this behaviour though, it was the same story when they had a hard target to hit in the block..

There's pretty much only 1 gal with a good amount of both apprime and asc, I think we all know which gal that is Roidwise, we are very top heavy so the average is a pretty poor indicater.
Well that pretty much only 1 gal happens to be the one which lost the roids, for asc as well as for Apprime. So nothing going bad there right?

And of course if such a gal is set up for TP people will prefer the roidfat asc targets over the skinny apprimes, especially when they know from previous attempts those apprimes have solid defence. Nothing wrong with that behavior.

Also top heavy means the planet in gals like this one are relatively even more fat.

Of course if CT etc would be purposely picking out asc targets over apprimes it would be a bad thing, but I dont see that happening atm. Thats all I am trying to show in my posts in this thread. I have no comment on the gal raiding behavior of CT as I simply dont know enough about that. Im just applying logic to understand ascs roidloss.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 18:53   #33
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Yeah man, totally makes sense to put 0 waves on 900 roid apprime targets, but on the 1200 asc ones lets make 4 big waves! This is in the same galaxy. CT etc said themselfs the block broke up too early, but instead of even trying to hit apprime without our "irrelevant" alliance, they go straight back to gal raiding. And yes, if they had any sense, they would keep hitting apprime, it's quite clear they are focused alot more on attacking now, therefor lacking in defense. I don't think anyonein asc expected to be left alone, then we would just have stayed in the block.. I am not surprised at this behaviour though, it was the same story when they had a hard target to hit in the block..

There's pretty much only 1 gal with a good amount of both apprime and asc, I think we all know which gal that is Roidwise, we are very top heavy so the average is a pretty poor indicater.
Considering that the Asc planet that had no incomings managed to def a couple apprime waves, i'd say that you guys need more incs
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:00   #34
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
Considering that the Asc planet that had no incomings managed to def a couple apprime waves, i'd say that you guys need more incs
Someone is bitter because i didnt let him roid me?
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:03   #35
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Re: Ascrime

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And I told him what happend yesterday, can you stop this recent onset of needless posts please?
I must've misread your post somehow, but I deny that any of my posts are needless!
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:16   #36
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by tobbe View Post
Someone is bitter because i didnt let him roid me?
/me points back at the sad smiley.
Anyhow, i think the correct phrase would be because that pesky Ascendancy didn't let me roid you. It's not like you could have done anything on your own
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:32   #37
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Re: Ascrime

Uh, whatever goes on in gal defense the alliances rarely has much to do with.. I assume the waves on the asc planets were too big to be covered by this guy, so he defended someone else in gal instead.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:32   #38
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
/me points back at the sad smiley.
Anyhow, i think the correct phrase would be because that pesky Ascendancy didn't let me roid you. It's not like you could have done anything on your own
I did do something on my own, i waked him after i tried waking my roach heavy apprimes ingal to cover me (sadly they like to sleep...)
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:42   #39
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by tobbe View Post
I did do something on my own, i waked him after i tried waking my roach heavy apprimes ingal to cover me (sadly they like to sleep...)
Your roach heavy apprime mates would have probably needed their roaches themselves. It's not like i expected to land, but the fact that it's an Asc fleet that prevented me from getting some nice xp does leave a bitter taste
Oh well, someday I'll land on one Apprime.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:46   #40
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Re: Ascrime

Well, what can we say...other than Shev rocks \o/
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:48   #41
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Re: Ascrime

Someone please hit Shev tomorrow
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:50   #42
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Re: Ascrime

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Originally Posted by MiX View Post
And of course if such a gal is set up for TP people will prefer the roidfat asc targets over the skinny apprimes, especially when they know from previous attempts those apprimes have solid defence. Nothing wrong with that behavior.

There is when the alliance your hitting isn't your main competitor, but the one you leave is......wars aren't won by roiding the fattest targets..
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 19:58   #43
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Smile Re: Ascrime

Something else...

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Essentially by hitting Apprime up to this point we have created a three horse race in the final stages of the round. We're pitting Apprime's activity against a simple test for CT and p3nguins, which is whether they can cooperate.
(Earlier: Light talking to asc)

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Now you're holding the block together, as you know if it disbands early.. we'll be coming for you.
Funny. Light/App is just an example here, not my point, just happened to be there. See, its funny how apparently Asc are one of the more roidable alliances at the moment, and still seem to get to boss around what supposedly is the best alliance this round - let alone the rest. I don't know if its just poor marketing on Apprime side, or if they really did have to swallow their pride by taking the chance for a nap when it was given to them by asc, but that has to hurt. At least, judging from all the posts here you'd almost forget that Apprime is actually the stronger side of the two.

Talk that nobody else could possibly lead the block is of course ridiculous and pure and utter bullshit. And yet, with every post like that it becomes a little bit more true. It all depends on what you believe, and right now it seems that you all believe(d) only Asc can light the way for you, while in all truth that is mainly because you gave them the flash light yourself. By talking asc up so much, you make asc more powerful than they in fact really are, and asc has made brilliant use of it. Well, up until this point - I think this NAP was a good show of power by Asc but also quite possibly it could have single-handedly ended the bulk of Ascs true power this round. After all, their real trump cards are now spent, and we all seem to have the same deck now. Now is the chance for another alliance to show their worth (or lack thereof).

In my opinion, quality players and such aside, pure black and white (and thus by definition faulted due to being oversimplified) - I think asc was just as powerful this round as everybody made them. And evidently, that was a lot. But you only have yourselves to blame. Reputation proves to be a powerful tool, and while this nap is certainly in App's benefit, it cost them a bunch of it. At least, that is if you read the posts in this topic. Via them, one could come to the conclusion that the current #7 alliance has single-handedly manipulated the top 3 into their current situation - which is of course also ridiculous. Right?
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 21:23   #44
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Re: Ascrime

Its not a matter of how many planets and how much value they have, but how they use it. Asc is just as big a threat then higher ranked alliances. But that all comes down to a few individuals that seem to put a lot of effort in once in a while.

Personally im a bit tired of PA after 3 rounds in a "pure" fortress gal, endless incs and long nights. It affects your real life!
I dont see how this will change either, since the memberbase pretty much stays the same. One alliance will do good because they put effort in, and everyone else will try to bash them senseless, leading to even more effort needed for the "best" alliance.

So from my point of view, the asc nap was unexpected but it was ****ing needed, because in a small community like this it sucks to be the one getting battered night after night, decreasing the quality of your life over time!
If i were in a block like the one who was hitting Apprime, i would delete my account rather then try making people quit the game.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 21:23   #45
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Re: Ascrime

Apprime is the stronger alliance, though I'm not sure if they'd be able to destroy us like Ascendancy destroyed some of the BGs last round. However, napping Ascendancy is an insanely clever move.

First of all, Ascendancy won't be a threat to #1 this round. We have too few planets, and too many of those are idle or valueless. As such, Apprime won't have to be afraid we'll turn against them near round end.

Secondly, until Ascendancy set up the anti-Apprime block, CT & co were very content to either galraid or target each other, even while Apprime was running away with the round. While it's true that another alliance could lead the block in place of Ascendancy, I consider this highly unlikely. One only has to look at the current situation to see evidence of that.

Within hours after leaving the block, CT napped ND and left p3nguins to rot. p3nguins tried to salvage the situation by napping Ascendancy, but by that time we had already grown accustomed to the idea of napping Apprime, and though the option was added to the poll, absolutely no one voted for it. (I realise my chronology is a bit off here, but good p3nguins intel would fill the holes in this story.) This kind of fragmentation is exactly what Apprime needs to turn the game around, as their quality is undoubtedly higher than CT's and p3nguins'.

As for Ascendancy getting hit, that's hardly a surprise. If you're hitting a galaxy with both Apprime and Ascendancy in it, you would be stupid allowing the Ascendancy planets to 3 fleet defend, especially because we're now actively working with Apprime (though not defensively, at least not alliance-wide).

However, if CT/p3nguins want any chance of keeping their current roid lead, they should continue to at least focus on Apprime. You could all-out target Ascendancy in an attempt to get us to drop the nap with Apprime (and you would get a significant amount of roids out of it, I'm sure), but we haven't exactly been easy to push around in the past, and though a large part of our military strength is now gone, our resilence has probably increased. Meanwhile they'd be giving Apprime ample time to regain their lost roids, throwing away their only advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machado
Via them, one could come to the conclusion that the current #7 alliance has single-handedly manipulated the top 3 into their current situation - which is of course also ridiculous. Right?
No, what is really ridiculous is that CT and p3nguins apparently needed the (at the time) #8 alliance to give them a chance to win the round. That is not a testament to our (not insignificant) greatness, but a testament to p3nguins' and (especially!) CT's hilarious incompetence.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 21:44   #46
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Re: Ascrime

What people don't understand is that hitting anyone has a certain amount of political fallout. I mean we worked terribly hard to make sure CT didn't get hit during the cooperation period, simply because we know that their HC are oversensitive about it. By the same token, hitting Ascendancy at this point just pushes us to a point where we work more closely with Apprime because needs must. Sometimes in politics it's about what you do get up to. As anyone who got incoming from DLR early on in r30 will know - as we made sure we didn't get any without napping them.
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Last edited by lokken; 25 Jul 2009 at 21:54.
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Unread 25 Jul 2009, 21:56   #47
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machado View Post
I don't know if its just poor marketing on Apprime side, or if they really did have to swallow their pride by taking the chance for a nap when it was given to them by asc, but that has to hurt. At least, judging from all the posts here you'd almost forget that Apprime is actually the stronger side of the two.
just so you know apprime offered asc the nap

and strenght is not just measured by mil capability you also need to be able to read and react to the politics that unfold within a round , too many HC only see the short term and then gallop head first down that road
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Unread 26 Jul 2009, 17:04   #48
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Re: Ascrime

mz i want to nap u
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Unread 26 Jul 2009, 19:09   #49
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Re: Ascrime

This post turned out to be quite a bit longer than I had meant, mainly due to addressing several (and most) points specifically (and some regretfully repeatedly, I apologise in advance).

First of all, it should probably be noted that CT declined a (or multiple?) request to NAP with Apprime upon joining the block, which was somewhat difficult for CT since Apprime has a lot of ex-CT members. However, they saw joining the block against Apprime as giving them (much?) better odds to win the round. I can imagine that up until that point, and also considering that the incs CT had had until then were mainly p3nguins (randoms or not), napping Apprime was still on the table. After all, everybody knew there was going to be an anti-app block, whether CT would organise it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
No, what is really ridiculous is that CT and p3nguins apparently needed the (at the time) #8 alliance to give them a chance to win the round. That is not a testament to our (not insignificant) greatness, but a testament to p3nguins' and (especially!) CT's hilarious incompetence.
Ridiculous? Why? Its true (and obvious) that neither p3 nor CT would win on their own, so they needed others whatever the case. Whether that's #3 or #7 doesn't matter so much as long as it gets the job done. The fact they're in the race now shows they did something right.

It just depends on point of view: you think you did what CT didn't/wouldn't, while I think you did what CT predicted you'd do if they wouldn't.

Who knows, if CT had gone right for App from the start Asc (or someone else) might have joined forces with App much earlier. For conspiracy, in the end, its simply two different ways of working to achieve the same goal. This goal has been achieved, with CT keeping out of the spot light at it. Add to that the fact that hitting Apprime is harder than hitting pretty much any other alliance, its not too far off to conclude that by doing randoms (and with smart targeting also hitting the preoccupied allies) there was more personal gain for at least a little while.

I hate to say it so blunt, but why do the dirty work yourself when you know somebody else will do it for you anyway? In the unlikely event that nothing did form in time, there was always the option to finally do some pushing of their own, at the risk of that being too little too late. Regardless of "what if's" - it put CT into a position of luxury. They could still decide which road to take after both sides had taken shape, and benefit from the weakened position of the other alliances. Of course now CT can't escape having to do dirty work, but now they're not in a disadvantageous position to do some. They would (have to) join the block eventually, and I fully agree that cooperation and attacks on Apprime are necessary to keep the chance to win.

But of course everybody knows this was completely wrong and stupid, because after all the way they would choose is the only good one, and even then, its still fail because its not them doing it. What you consider inaction might just have been calculated slow play. If you can't see the plan (or the action) it doesn't mean its not there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
However, napping Ascendancy is an insanely clever move.
Very true of course, like before, I'd even go as far as saying that it was one of the few single things they could do that would be efficient enough to stay in reach of the #1. Seems smart from Ascendancy point of view too, judging from the opinions expressed so far. Why risk the wrath of the beast if you can risk the wrath of the peasants instead, and point the attention of the peasants towards the beast just a little bit more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
just so you know apprime offered asc the nap

and strenght is not just measured by mil capability you also need to be able to read and react to the politics that unfold within a round , too many HC only see the short term and then gallop head first down that road
Looks to be just bad marketing from app side then, and perhaps a slightly awkward (or excellent) choice of words from lokken's side. I'd like to add predict political climate pre-round to that list. By the way, looking at short term and gallop head first down that road seems to be exactly what everybody seems to regard as what CT should have done, judging from various posts and common opinion. Leads me to state that not just too many HC do this, but too many players. Take a look at a random thread on AD, its all opportunistic, like I said with my first post. Opinions/reasons/entire core beliefs vary from week to week depending on whatever situation the poster is currently in, and there's hardly anyone who doesn't fall into this trap, and that could well mainly be due to a lack of frequent posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Within hours after leaving the block, CT napped ND and left p3nguins to rot.
You did say your chronology was wrong. CT napped ND (way?) before the block disbanded. Anticipating the block falling apart, and their only other friends Apprime being royally pissed at them for obvious reasons, this was a bit as a safe guard from both. Again, it shows more vision than people seem to be capable of noticing. You (talking in general here, not specifically aimed at you mz) should really try thinking what another's motives might be rather than write everything off as incompetence or whatever. And naturally, that bit about p3nguins is just rubbish. As you well know, it takes two to tango.

---------------------------

Some info about the writer... :P I am new to CT, fresh in this round (in fact its been quite a while since I played seriously and rl actually allows me to finish a round). I say they as to not confuse my personal opinion with official CT statements, and also since I've been nastily lazy and have done little more to influence the game plan than at rare times discuss, and always observe. This is just from my point of view, and I hope it offered a little insight into the other side.

I think so far things went pretty well according to plan, the block formed, we kept a pretty low profile, and we overtook Apprime as we had hoped (planned?) - everybody has played their parts very well (and should CT win we definitely have to give credit to asc for their role - I never really liked asc for really no decent reason at all, but I have to give them a lot of points for their play this round, which started with the halt of the recruitment of everybody and their son - aside from helping us, in general, you spiced up the round a lot, I'm quite impressed). But for CT this was just stage one, and the (relatively) easy part at that. Now that the cards are finally shuffled, only now, will the only truly visible test for CT start: maintain our lead over Apprime. As for p3nguins (and the rest, pretty much) I'd say we're the best chance they've got of increasing their own rank, at least right now. At least if p3 want the #1 they have to overtake Apprime first. After all, CT is much easier to deal with

At the risk of spoiling all of our secret schemes for this round so far with my post, I just wanted to go ahead and say that while I think its lovely that everybody has an opinion of everything, keep in mind there may be more than simply what you believe to be the right way (or only! way) of doing something. What you mistake for inaction might just be calculated slow play, and you don't need to see a plan in order for it to be there.
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Unread 26 Jul 2009, 20:33   #50
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Re: Ascrime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machado View Post
This post turned out to be quite a bit longer than I had meant, mainly due to addressing several (and most) points specifically (and some regretfully repeatedly, I apologise in advance).

First of all, it should probably be noted that CT declined a (or multiple?) request to NAP with Apprime upon joining the block, which was somewhat difficult for CT since Apprime has a lot of ex-CT members. However, they saw joining the block against Apprime as giving them (much?) better odds to win the round. I can imagine that up until that point, and also considering that the incs CT had had until then were mainly p3nguins (randoms or not), napping Apprime was still on the table. After all, everybody knew there was going to be an anti-app block, whether CT would organise it or not.
Wait, you're debating this in terms of "much better". That option is everyone but CT dead, then CT dead or outroided to a ridiculous level. Apprime are only 9 million down because everyone hit them - never mind if they actually had people on their side for the whole round (in which case it would be the other way, as an alliance that active would never do this).

Quote:
Ridiculous? Why? Its true (and obvious) that neither p3 nor CT would win on their own, so they needed others whatever the case. Whether that's #3 or #7 doesn't matter so much as long as it gets the job done. The fact they're in the race now shows they did something right.
The reality is that we were the instigators - to make such a claim that your HC sat in the expectation we'd approach them to coordinate the whole charade is somewhat ridiculous.

Quote:
It just depends on point of view: you think you did what CT didn't/wouldn't, while I think you did what CT predicted you'd do if they wouldn't.
Our point of view at the time was simple: having one alliance (Apprime) overrun everyone was totally undesirable and we did what was needed to stop that. Particularly when it's us who would be overrun. Who won as a result was irrelevant.

Quote:
Who knows, if CT had gone right for App from the start Asc (or someone else) might have joined forces with App much earlier. For conspiracy, in the end, its simply two different ways of working to achieve the same goal. This goal has been achieved, with CT keeping out of the spot light at it. Add to that the fact that hitting Apprime is harder than hitting pretty much any other alliance, its not too far off to conclude that by doing randoms (and with smart targeting also hitting the preoccupied allies) there was more personal gain for at least a little while.
CT against App solo is an amusing thought. Firstly because the thought of CT going into war from the get go is a hilarious "it'll never happen" given that I have one of your HC logged saying that CT members do the emo dance the minute it gets tough. Secondly, because Apprime would be shredded.

Quote:
I hate to say it so blunt, but why do the dirty work yourself when you know somebody else will do it for you anyway? In the unlikely event that nothing did form in time, there was always the option to finally do some pushing of their own, at the risk of that being too little too late. Regardless of "what if's" - it put CT into a position of luxury. They could still decide which road to take after both sides had taken shape, and benefit from the weakened position of the other alliances. Of course now CT can't escape having to do dirty work, but now they're not in a disadvantageous position to do some. They would (have to) join the block eventually, and I fully agree that cooperation and attacks on Apprime are necessary to keep the chance to win.
Let's be clear here: your HC nearly got everyone killed and took a ridiculous amount of effort to persuade otherwise. Without beating about the bush, militarily you're enough of a shambles that they can't be that fantastic actors to intentionally difficult and then be persuaded. The stubbornness of CT HC to work with anyone that had hit them despite it being totally necessary to cooperate with them was beyond stupid. When you're bad enough to drive killerbee out of the channel and getting reams of abuse in #ascendancy when the log is pasted, I think you're overrating your own HC here. They're staggeringly, staggeringly bad and if they do achieve this victory, they'll have us to thank.

Quote:
But of course everybody knows this was completely wrong and stupid, because after all the way they would choose is the only good one, and even then, its still fail because its not them doing it. What you consider inaction might just have been calculated slow play. If you can't see the plan (or the action) it doesn't mean its not there.
CT's plan is very simple: stay out of conflict and hope for the best. I don't think it's a particularly clever strategy and nor a particularly successful one, given that in r30 it achieved a sixty thousand roid lead that ended up in a massacre. You may still win if enough people help you; but that's contingent on your side being competent but if Apprime keep going it'll be very close (which is very much the intent of the timing of our withdrawal).

Quote:
Very true of course, like before, I'd even go as far as saying that it was one of the few single things they could do that would be efficient enough to stay in reach of the #1. Seems smart from Ascendancy point of view too, judging from the opinions expressed so far. Why risk the wrath of the beast if you can risk the wrath of the peasants instead, and point the attention of the peasants towards the beast just a little bit more.
Our main concern is survival. The setting up the round is secondary but we were in such a position of political domination (arguably prior to tag score we might be in with a chance of being labeled winners right now) that we could decide to set up the round that way.

Quote:
Looks to be just bad marketing from app side then, and perhaps a slightly awkward (or excellent) choice of words from lokken's side. I'd like to add predict political climate pre-round to that list. By the way, looking at short term and gallop head first down that road seems to be exactly what everybody seems to regard as what CT should have done, judging from various posts and common opinion. Leads me to state that not just too many HC do this, but too many players. Take a look at a random thread on AD, its all opportunistic, like I said with my first post. Opinions/reasons/entire core beliefs vary from week to week depending on whatever situation the poster is currently in, and there's hardly anyone who doesn't fall into this trap, and that could well mainly be due to a lack of frequent posting
It's actually because people lack knowledge of the tendencies of the game engine long term.

Quote:
You did say your chronology was wrong. CT napped ND (way?) before the block disbanded. Anticipating the block falling apart, and their only other friends Apprime being royally pissed at them for obvious reasons, this was a bit as a safe guard from both. Again, it shows more vision than people seem to be capable of noticing. You (talking in general here, not specifically aimed at you mz) should really try thinking what another's motives might be rather than write everything off as incompetence or whatever. And naturally, that bit about p3nguins is just rubbish. As you well know, it takes two to tango.
My guess is that you were hoping Apprime would be defeated and that napping ND anticipated a fight with p3nguins.

Quote:
Some info about the writer... :P I am new to CT, fresh in this round (in fact its been quite a while since I played seriously and rl actually allows me to finish a round). I say they as to not confuse my personal opinion with official CT statements, and also since I've been nastily lazy and have done little more to influence the game plan than at rare times discuss, and always observe. This is just from my point of view, and I hope it offered a little insight into the other side.

I think so far things went pretty well according to plan, the block formed, we kept a pretty low profile, and we overtook Apprime as we had hoped (planned?) - everybody has played their parts very well (and should CT win we definitely have to give credit to asc for their role - I never really liked asc for really no decent reason at all, but I have to give them a lot of points for their play this round, which started with the halt of the recruitment of everybody and their son - aside from helping us, in general, you spiced up the round a lot, I'm quite impressed). But for CT this was just stage one, and the (relatively) easy part at that. Now that the cards are finally shuffled, only now, will the only truly visible test for CT start: maintain our lead over Apprime. As for p3nguins (and the rest, pretty much) I'd say we're the best chance they've got of increasing their own rank, at least right now. At least if p3 want the #1 they have to overtake Apprime first. After all, CT is much easier to deal with

At the risk of spoiling all of our secret schemes for this round so far with my post, I just wanted to go ahead and say that while I think its lovely that everybody has an opinion of everything, keep in mind there may be more than simply what you believe to be the right way (or only! way) of doing something. What you mistake for inaction might just be calculated slow play, and you don't need to see a plan in order for it to be there.
Take over from CT HC; you are way better than them.

Just to clear up: I'm not outraged at the idea of CT winning at all; it's meant to be 'close'. I'm more outraged that anyone could possibly suppose that they've got the aptitude to do any kind of slow play that you imagine.
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