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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 12:37   #251
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I'd hope so. Allthough I'm a fan of Fabregas, he hasn't been the Fabregas we know from Arsenal yet. Allthough being backup and having to prove yourself within the little amount of time you get, can't be easy.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 12:43   #252
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

That said this all just underlines what a moron he is if he leaves Goons for Barca.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 12:46   #253
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
That said this all just underlines what a moron he is if he leaves Goons for Barca.
True.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 12:54   #254
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Villa can also operate from the flank (with Torres being the central striker).
Looks to me like that's what's been happening, Villa's been on the left a lot and Torres has been in the middle but due to his lack of form it hasn't worked so well
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 12:57   #255
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

All of which still leaves the right side vacant.

Suggesting dropping one of the kids off the middle for yet-another-wide player.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 13:00   #256
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
All of which still leaves the right side vacant.

Suggesting dropping one of the kids off the middle for yet-another-wide player.
For the right side I'd go for Silva or Navas.

My setup would be:

Villa as deep striker
Iniesta and Silva as left and right winger
Xavi and Xabi as central midfielders
Capvilla and Ramos as left and right full backs
Piquet and Puyol as central defenders
Casillas as keeper.

Probably wishful thinking but who knows
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 13:02   #257
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I'd start up with 11 men over 10.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 13:06   #258
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I'd start up with 11 men over 10.
Lol, I noticed. then I'd put Pedro on the left and move iniesta to the center.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 13:07   #259
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Yeah that's about how I'd think it too. However I have a sneaking suspicion Del Bosque is going to hold on to his 4-man central midfield.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 13:17   #260
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Yeah that's about how I'd think it too. However I have a sneaking suspicion Del Bosque is going to hold on to his 4-man central midfield.
Yeah, eventhough a 4-3-3 would suit them well. Technically, Spain also has the players for a 4-4-2 but the problem is that Torres is completely out of shape, hence ruining the 4-4-2 setup.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 13:58   #261
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Del Bosque isn't going to risk splitting up his midfield now, the most "daring" thing he would do would be to drop Torres.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 14:55   #262
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Germany will have a hard time playing the Spanish, which are clearly better then both England and Argentina.

Also Müller will be strongly missed, hes in my eyes with Schweinsteiger and Villa the best player in this WC so far.
Trochowski will take his part, but hes far from as dangerous for the defence of Spain - beware of free kicks though!

Overall we (Germany) have an open bill with Spain for loosing EC Finals 2 years ago, but i am not sure if this form of pressure does us good.

in the end

Germany 2:1 Spain as this is an prediction thread
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 16:24   #263
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I would keep two holding midfielders if I were Del Bosque, Ramos leaves a lot of space behind him when he goes forward and the DMs are going to have to cover it, especially since Germany have been pretty lethal on the left with podolski there - they scored 3 goals against Argentina on the left as the argies have problems filling the RB position.

to M0: Ozil has impressed me more this WC than Schweinsteiger tbh, though that may be because I already rated Schweinsteiger based on his performance in 08 but hadn't seen any of Ozil before.
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 16:51   #264
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
to M0: Ozil has impressed me more this WC than Schweinsteiger tbh, though that may be because I already rated Schweinsteiger based on his performance in 08 but hadn't seen any of Ozil before.
yeah well Özil is great, but schweinsteiger really grew to be a leader, thats why i am rating him higher
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Unread 5 Jul 2010, 19:23   #265
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Hard to say one is better than the other, Germany's system works so well because they have Muller-Schweinsteiger-Ozil-Podolski all playing up there.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 06:52   #266
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Germany's system works because they're Germany. A collection of mostly unordinary players put together sums up for something extraordinary (see: Brazil, where a collection of extraordinary players sums up for something unordinary).

Germany 3 - 1 Spain
Netherlands 3 - 2 Uruguay (et)
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 07:47   #267
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

You really think Germany will score 3 goal versus Spain who have hardly let in a goal so far? I'm afraid it will be a borefest of epic proportions.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 08:42   #268
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
You really think Germany will score 3 goal versus Spain who have hardly let in a goal so far?


Argentina had conceded conceded one to Mexico and one to South Korea before taking a trashing. Spain has now conceded one to Swizerland and one to Chile. Spain has now scored 6. Germany has sent in 13. Say what you say about oppositions or their strengths. I don't think past game statistics are as relevant as Spain's vulnerability to counter attacks and Germany's main strength being fast paced direct attacking style.

If someone's trying to make the game into a borefest, it's Del Bosque. Germany will stick to their relatively entertaining attacking style.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:06   #269
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
to M0: Ozil has impressed me more this WC than Schweinsteiger tbh, though that may be because I already rated Schweinsteiger based on his performance in 08 but hadn't seen any of Ozil before.
I never heared of Ozil before this WC tbh, don't even know what team he plays for. All I know is that he's a naturalized Turkish player.

But Schweinsteiger is the best player of Germany imo. It's infact a good thing that Ballack wasn't able to play (eventhough an injury is never good). that means that Schweinsteiger needed to take up his responsability and he did so, very well.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:13   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Argentina had conceded conceded one to Mexico and one to South Korea before taking a trashing. Spain has now conceded one to Swizerland and one to Chile. Spain has now scored 6. Germany has sent in 13. Say what you say about oppositions or their strengths. I don't think past game statistics are as relevant as Spain's vulnerability to counter attacks and Germany's main strength being fast paced direct attacking style.

If someone's trying to make the game into a borefest, it's Del Bosque. Germany will stick to their relatively entertaining attacking style.
In all fairness, comparing Argentina defense with that of Spain is infact kind of degradjng towards Spain. I do rate Puyol and Piquet (both one of the best defenders in the world) higher then Samuel and Demichelis (last one doesn't even have a guaranteed spot at Munchen). I also rate the defending capacities of the L and R backs of Spain higher then Argentina (even if they have alot of flaws).

Infact, Argentina has a terribly unbalanced and poor defending team. But the constant pressure, fear of Messi and their possession makes it hard on most enemies.

If Xabi Alonso plays a good game then that will help Spain big time, as he recovers so much lost balls for his team.

I agree that Germany will win, but imo they'll have it quite alot harder against Spain then against Argentina.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:16   #271
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
If someone's trying to make the game into a borefest, it's Del Bosque. Germany will stick to their relatively entertaining attacking style.
So far, Spain hasn't bored me in any of their games. So I don't see why you'd accuse Del Bosque of trying to turn the game into a borefest.

Even their lost game against Swiss was fun to watch. Then again, I really enjoy watching their perfect technique and accurate passing, something no other team manages in that perfection.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:23   #272
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
So far, Spain hasn't bored me in any of their games. So I don't see why you'd accuse Del Bosque of trying to turn the game into a borefest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IsildurX
You really think Germany will score 3 goal versus Spain who have hardly let in a goal so far? I'm afraid it will be a borefest of epic proportions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjel
Even their lost game against Swiss was fun to watch. Then again, I really enjoy watching their perfect technique and accurate passing, something no other team manages in that perfection.
I believe we've established your substantial bias in what comes to Spain, but we all have our preferences and I guess what defines as a borefest is a matter of those. I personally don't really fancy watching games that involve 90% of a 60-70% possession rate spent slowly passing the ball between four central midfielders waiting for the 4-4-2 through 5-4-1 8/9 -man to break apart.

I find fast, creative, flair football more attractive, and Germany's providing with it all. Hence, I commented to Isildur, that if he expects the game to turn into a borefest, it probably won't be because Germany would lack the swift, creative attacks, or the desire to go for the goal, but more likely because Spain will be able to slowwwwly hold the ball for the vast majority of the game without creating many substantial chances to score apart from shooting to the stands from outside the box. I think many people like a gameplay that comes with a lot of fast chances, creative sparks, and not only a hunger but also deliverance of goals. This has all been what Germany has stood for in this tournament.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:23   #273
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

That is something I didn't understand, why didn't Samuel play in the last few matches? Did he get injured?

Undoubtedly it will mainly be because of Spain(the borefest that is), but you never know, maybe the Germans will become a bit more 'safe' as well. They really shouldn't though, but it's typical of teams who play wonderful attacking football to go out once they reach the later rounds and become a bit more afraid to push people forward.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:29   #274
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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That is something I didn't understand, why didn't Samuel play in the last few matches? Did he get injured?
No idea. The whole Argentina back four has been a mystery to me from the very start.



Quote:
maybe the Germans will become a bit more 'safe' as well. They really shouldn't though, but it's typical of teams who play wonderful attacking football to go out once they reach the later rounds and become a bit more afraid to push people forward.
I haven't go the slightest doubt in my mind that Germany wouldn't go out to attack. The style of play isn't a spur of the moment choice - it's a long worked project that started off Klinsmann when Löw was his assistant, and is now being continued by Löw in a flavour of success. Germany may just be one of those few teams that play football not only to succeed, but also to entertain. I hope they can keep it up (while I'm not a Germany fan by tradition).

It's ironic how the Samba team of the tradition turned into the backpeddling European defensive team with the occasional creative spark from the treaquerista, and the traditional backpeddling European team turned into an incarnation of fluid, fast attacking play.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:35   #275
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
I also rate the defending capacities of the L and R backs of Spain higher then Argentina (even if they have alot of flaws).

I agree Argentina defense was dreadful. But then again Germany trashed England too. At this point of the competition you're starting to ask, whether these games were about the opposition being poor, or Germany simply making them appear poor? I drew the first few down the former part, but after the Argentina game I'm really starting to lean towards the latter.

Sergio Ramos is a brilliant attacking right back much like Glen Johnson, except that Spain has no wingers to fall back to cover Ramos going upwards, and I'm not expecting Xabi Alonso (who is a holding midfielder, less so an anchorman or a defensive midfielder) or Sergio Busquets being there.

There's only really two things I can think of that could turn the sway to Spain: first being them scoring a fast opening goal, second being a Spain player play-acting a German player off the field with a straight red (known as the "torres-busquets method"). The latter is the other thing the Spaniyards have put into perfection of recently in addition to tech and ball control.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:39   #276
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I'm baffled at why Samuel didn't play then as he is the ONLY absolutely top quality defender they have.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:46   #278
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I believe we've established your substantial bias in what comes to Spain, but we all have our preferences and I guess what defines as a borefest is a matter of those. I personally don't really fancy watching games that involve 90% of a 60-70% possession rate spent slowly passing the ball between four central midfielders waiting for the 4-4-2 through 5-4-1 8/9 -man to break apart.

I find fast, creative, flair football more attractive, and Germany's providing with it all. Hence, I commented to Isildur, that if he expects the game to turn into a borefest, it probably won't be because Germany would lack the swift, creative attacks, or the desire to go for the goal, but more likely because Spain will be able to slowwwwly hold the ball for the vast majority of the game without creating many substantial chances to score apart from shooting to the stands from outside the box. I think many people like a gameplay that comes with a lot of fast chances, creative sparks, and not only a hunger but also deliverance of goals. This has all been what Germany has stood for in this tournament.
Ofcourse I have a strong bias for Spain, nothing wrong with that ofcourse. I do enjoy their playing style. During Qualifying they played some amazing games, capping 5-6 goals against teams such as Belgium (ok, no reference) or Poland, not a crap team either.

On the WC they've been far less efficiënt in their play. Mainly because Torres sucks and because Iniesta was injured (he's better now but still not at his top), Xavi being really tired after the season he played. Ofcourse that's no excuse as the German players had an equally long season.

Yes, their game is mostly focused on possession of the ball. But you cannot deny that their technique is the standard today. No other team can display this kind of technique atm. There is a reason why Spain won friendly games against the top teams and against Germany they were quite impressive.

But ok, every game needs to be played. and like you said, this is all subjective. I like their playing style more then what Germany displays.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:48   #279
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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It's ironic how the Samba team of the tradition turned into the backpeddling European defensive team with the occasional creative spark from the treaquerista, and the traditional backpeddling European team turned into an incarnation of fluid, fast attacking play.
I wouldn't call Spain a defensive team tbh.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:48   #280
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

This WC will probably be the first and only time I am cheering for Germany, but there's simply nothing else one can do!
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:49   #281
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I wouldn't call Spain a defensive team tbh.
I think he is talking about Brazil


edit: Perhaps not
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:50   #282
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I wouldn't call Spain defensive really, theyre TRYING to create things offensively but they simply don't have the fluidity/skill required to do that at present.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:54   #283
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I think he is talking about Brazil


edit: Perhaps not
Yes am? I was under the impression that this was a commonly understood a reference, sorry.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:54   #284
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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There's only really two things I can think of that could turn the sway to Spain: first being them scoring a fast opening goal, second being a Spain player play-acting a German player off the field with a straight red (known as the "torres-busquets method"). The latter is the other thing the Spaniyards have put into perfection of recently in addition to tech and ball control.
Or Germany could have a bad day, or Spain a good day. Purely looking on player quality, I certainly don't rate Germany higher then Spain.

German defense hasn't been flawless either. Argentina just failed to punish the mistakes. David Villa has proved to be an expert at punishing poor defending.

A Torres in form is deadly for Germany. He's faster then any of the German defenders.

Also, England defense wasn't great either, with their top defenders being injured. I do rate Puyol and Piquet rather high. Surely they have proven to be top defenders, no?

Also, Casillas is a far better keeper then the English one or the Argentina one.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:56   #285
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I wouldn't call Spain defensive really, theyre TRYING to create things offensively but they simply don't have the fluidity/skill required to do that at present.
At present, indeed. They proved to be extremely deadly in the past. Let's hope they can find abit of that in their next matches.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 09:58   #286
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Yes, their game is mostly focused on possession of the ball. But you cannot deny that their technique is the standard today. No other team can display this kind of technique atm. There is a reason why Spain won friendly games against the top teams and against Germany they were quite impressive.
I can understand why good technique and pass are beautiful to watch - I have a degree of admiration towards players like Leo Messi and Mesut Özil. However, excellent touch and pass with near-zero creativity and flair equals dull, and results in possession gigantique, but scoring minimum, with lots of shots from less good setups. You need flair and creativity to break down brick wall defenses. Spain isn't providing any. The Barcelona midfield of Spain lacks it's vital component that fills the Barca team with these properties - the genius of Messi.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:00   #287
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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German defense hasn't been flawless either. Argentina just failed to punish the mistakes. David Villa has proved to be an expert at punishing poor defending.

It's really a tough argument isn'tit. Considering a zero-goal game against a team the quality of Swizerland.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjel
Torres in form is deadly for Germany. He's faster then any of the German defenders.
I typically rate Torres, but the deadliest thing he's done so far in this tournament is to cheat Chile a red card, and I wouldn't expect him to achieve much more than perhaps act a booking or two against the Germans.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:10   #288
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I can understand why good technique and pass are beautiful to watch - I have a degree of admiration towards players like Leo Messi and Mesut Özil. However, excellent touch and pass with near-zero creativity and flair equals dull, and results in possession gigantique, but scoring minimum, with lots of shots from less good setups. You need flair and creativity to break down brick wall defenses. Spain isn't providing any. The Barcelona midfield of Spain lacks it's vital component that fills the Barca team with these properties - the genius of Messi.
I'd dare to say that Iniesta has more creativity then any of the German players. Sadly he's not on form, like Torres.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:14   #289
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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It's really a tough argument isn'tit. Considering a zero-goal game against a team the quality of Swizerland.




I typically rate Torres, but the deadliest thing he's done so far in this tournament is to cheat Chile a red card, and I wouldn't expect him to achieve much more than perhaps act a booking or two against the Germans.
Well, he made the German defense look like a joke with his goal in the EC. Then again, Spain and Torres did play alot better back then.

And tbh, trying to get the other team to receive a booking or red card is what ALL teams do, including Germany. Let's not be hypocrite and claim team A or B does this while team C never does.

Tbh, it only makes sence. If you have so much possession of the ball, you're bound to receive tons of faults on you. And the red card for Chile, please ... the player should have been sent off 10 minutes earlier, where he escaped his 2nd yellow card.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:26   #290
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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It's really a tough argument isn'tit. Considering a zero-goal game against a team the quality of Swizerland.
This argument keeps being used but Switzerland now hold the record for longest time played in the WC without conceding a goal, beating Italy's record. They also have an incredible manager in Hitzfeld so not being able to score against them isn't as bad as it initially sounds.


Would also agree that Iniesta has that creative spark you mentioned, whilst Xavi isn't completely boring either and often provides amazing passes that cut defences open
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:35   #291
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Would also agree that Iniesta has that creative spark you mentioned, whilst Xavi isn't completely boring either and often provides amazing passes that cut defences open
It's not showing on the scoreboards. The deadly passes aren't there. The very good scoring chances have been slim. That's all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kjel
Sadly he's not on form, like Torres.
Performing poorly and not being on form is what got say England/Italy et cetera knocked out. It's not a tournament where the team with the best collective statistics record from the past two years wins.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:41   #292
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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It's not showing on the scoreboards. The deadly passes aren't there. The very good scoring chances have been slim. That's all.
True, still you have to be utterly blind to not see the creativity of players such as Iniesta and Xavi. Barcelona also played will when Messi was injured for a month. Infact, most of Messi's goals came from a pass from Xavi.

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Performing poorly and not being on form is what got say England knocked out. It's not a tournament where the team with the best collective statistics record from the past two years wins.
I can't argue on that. In the end, the result matters. All the rest becomes irrelevant.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:44   #293
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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True, still you have to be utterly blind to not see the creativity of players such as Iniesta and Xavi.
I am, probably, this tournament's attacking options of Spain apart from possession which consists of a 4-man "central" midfield playing short passes haven't been as impressive as I expected (or so to say, in compared to the Dutch or the Germans).


Quote:
I can't argue on that. In the end, the result matters. All the rest becomes irrelevant.
I guess we'll see in a few days then!
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:45   #294
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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It's not showing on the scoreboards. The deadly passes aren't there. The very good scoring chances have been slim. That's all.
agreed, he's provided some of the chances (spain's goals in the last 2 games) but he isn't completely on form. He's still been one of Spain's best players thus far imo (along with Ramos and Villa) and there's more to come from him.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:48   #295
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I am, probably, this tournament's attacking options of Spain apart from possession which consists of a 4-man "central" midfield playing short passes haven't been as impressive as I expected (or so to say, in compared to the Dutch or the Germans).
I meant in general. both players have incredible creativity and flair. Both belong to the best midfielders in the world. Somehow, during this WC they fail to impress or atleast fail to be consistent.

Same as with Rooney. One of the best strikers in the world, yet a terrible tournament. Same goes for Ronaldo, Drogba, ... All absolute top players but not able to perform on this WC.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 10:54   #296
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Somehow, during this WC they fail to impress or atleast fail to be consistent.

Ok. Let me rephrase this very carefully now. I can agree that Rooney's a brilliant player. I can also agree that Xavi and Iniesta are brilliant players. I always liked Carlos Valderrama. Lothar Matthäus was an inspiration to me when I was a kid.

However, this isn't about who can be this and that if they play to their very best. Currently, what I personally feel the reason to Spain's relatively poor scoring record is that they're having difficulties creating sufficiently good scoring chances against most teams. A lot of their efforts are just "shots". While say, Germany, or Netherlands, are able to play ball around, find space, and find opportunities. Why? Because they've got less flair, poorer pass, poorer creativity? No. The contrary. Whether this is due to Xavi and Iniesta being on poor form or them being crud is not very relevant to the result. Spain will need to show more creativity, more flair, and more ability to break down defenses to find themselves in the better picks to put the ball into the net.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 11:00   #297
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Ok. Let me rephrase this very carefully now. I can agree that Rooney's a brilliant player. I can also agree that Xavi and Iniesta are brilliant players. I always liked Carlos Valderrama. Lothar Matthäus was an inspiration to me when I was a kid.

However, this isn't about who can be this and that if they play to their very best. Currently, what I personally feel the reason to Spain's relatively poor scoring record is that they're having difficulties creating sufficiently good scoring chances against most teams. A lot of their efforts are just "shots". While say, Germany, or Netherlands, are able to play ball around, find space, and find opportunities. Why? Because they've got less flair, poorer pass, poorer creativity? No. The contrary. Whether this is due to Xavi and Iniesta being on poor form or them being crud is not very relevant to the result. Spain will need to show more creativity, more flair, and more ability to break down defenses to find themselves in the better picks to put the ball into the net.
I'm merely saying that Spain and those playing in particular have proven to be able to be creative, deadly, efficient and all of that. I'm just saying that it is possible that they beat Germany with their typical game. So far, they've failed to impress (allthough I enjoy watching them play). Let's hope that can be different tomorrow evening.

While other "top" teams like Italy or France have at no point proven that they can measure themselves with the top teams during the last few years.
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 11:22   #298
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
While other "top" teams like Italy or France have at no point proven that they can measure themselves with the top teams during the last few years.
England entered the tournament as one of the "favourites"?
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 11:45   #299
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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England entered the tournament as one of the "favourites"?
I said like France or Italy. I didn't say anything about England
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Unread 6 Jul 2010, 11:47   #300
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

How come you two haven't just added each other on msn to discuss this by now
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